reggie bush - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Five-ofan · 12-08-2005, 02:37 AM

VY is just a better runner. He is the best runner as a qb I have seen. Jones didnt make people missas much, didnt run with as much power as VY does and doesnt accelerate anywhere near as quickly. That is jones biggest weakness btw. YPC is nice but not always the end all be all of measuring runners. Without looking at there stats Im pretty confident VY has already beat Jones career rushing yards total. If im wrong oh well but I doubt it.

ocelot_ark · 12-08-2005, 03:17 AM

Well yeah, he's also had about twice the amount of carries.

But "he just is" is about as good an explanation as I expected.

Five-ofan · 12-08-2005, 03:27 AM

I did say he just is and then I explained the he just is with the points about VY being more elusive. Do you disagree with that? Being more powerful. Do you disagree with that? Accelerating faster. Do you disagree with that? The power one is the only one that is even debateable. Do you really think Jones is as good a runner as Vince? I know you went to arkansas and as such hate UT and love Jones but come on man.

ocelot_ark · 12-08-2005, 07:59 AM

There's no use debating you or any other UT fan's POV. Why? UT is the best at everything. They have the best players. Best coaches. Best fans. Best facilities. I'm using stats to back up my opinion. Why? They don't lie. The numbers say that VY and MJ have identical rushing stats. The pundits (and everyone outside of Texas) all agree that the SEC is, without a doubt, the hardest conference in the land...meaning that it would be tougher to amass that YPC average of MJ's in the SEC.

How does one argue over power? Acceleration? Acceleration is somewhat proven by these numbers...not that VY has these numbers available, but they're unlikely to be matched.
At the NFL combine MJ's 40 was a 4.42 (fastest ever for a participating QB), 20 was a 2.54, 10 was a 1.5. The 40 and 20 don't really tell us anything we didn't already know. He's a big guy, you expect him to hit his stride and really excel past the 10/15. But his time after 10 was bettered only by Ronnie Brown, Jerome Mathis (fastest player in the draft), and two guys I had never heard of. He TIED Darren Sproles. A 6'6" guy that accelerated as fast as Darren Sproles is amazing. AMAZING.

Perhaps you just never watched MJ play? Maybe you've only seen him in the pros? I admit that I haven't seen VY play as much as most people here. I do know that the few times I've seen him I can't help but make the comparisions between he and MJ. I 100% believe that VY is a HELLUVA lot better passing QB than MJ ever was. Some of my being unimpressed with VY's running ability probably dates back to the Ark/UT game last year. MJ was twice the running threat that VY was in that game. As HORRIBLE as Arkansas' D was that year, you'd expect VY to have run for over 100. He finished with 44 or something like that...but his passing was what impressed me in that game.

Five-ofan · 12-08-2005, 08:39 AM

I based mine on stats too. YPC is by no means the best measure of a runner. Its nice but hell troy hambrick led the nfl in ypc one year. Jones is an incredible athlete and I will never debate that. Watch his basketball highlights. He has some insane dunks. Im sure you have though. He was imo the best athlete in the draft last year and Vince is still dang near the athlete he is and a much better football player. I personally know someone who runs a 4.18 and ran a 4.19, 4.24 and 4.29 as his 3 times at the combine and vince is a hell of alot better runner than him too. Yes the SEC is a better conference but it isnt as huge a disparity as you make it out to be.

Power = running through tackles, running over people, breaking arm tackles. Vince is better at this than Jones is/was. If you dont solidly hit Vince and wrap up you arent gonna tackle him. Even if you do there is a good possibility he just bounces off. Acceleration I will say I didnt know his times but its from my perception of him that he doesnt get to top speed real quick but once he does you arent gonna catch him. I could be wrong though based on that time. Elusiveness, Young wins hands down. Young makes people look silly all the time. Jones is more of a if there is a hole and he finds it he is gone.

#1MavsFan · 12-08-2005, 03:30 PM

VY is on another level compared to Matt Jones, he just has this playmaking ability that IMO Jones lacked. Vince and Bush make people miss left and right with cutbacks, and what not, I didn’t see much of that from Matt. Matt will have a great NFL career but VY and Bush will have an even better one.

alby · 12-08-2005, 03:56 PM

as an NFL WR

Jones > Young

Five-ofan · 12-08-2005, 06:47 PM

I think it would be relatively close but I would give Jones a slight edge as a receiver simply because he has done it and VY hasnt. My point was simply that vince could do it too and that he is a better runner which he is.

ocelot_ark · 12-08-2005, 08:06 PM

What's more important in a WR? Speed or Power?

Five-ofan · 12-08-2005, 08:44 PM

Neither. really. Besides Jones may very well be faster than vince but its not that big a differend. I would think Vince runs about a 4.46 which is damn close to a 4.42. Thats not gonna change much. Jones is a better route runner right now so he would be a better receiver now but I think Vince could get there. He just makes plays. I think Vince will be successful as a qb in the nfl so we will never find out.

ocelot_ark · 12-09-2005, 07:43 AM

MJ has shown an ability to catch passes throughout his high school and college career that VY has never shown. That MIGHT be an important factor.

And we'll never know VY's true speed...'cause he won't go to the combine. His stock will be high enough to where he wouldn't need to go. But i can DAMN WELL GUARANTEE it's no where near 4.42.

That's like saying that VY is as fast as Troy Williamson (4.4), Mark Clayton(4.42), or Terrance Murphy (4.46). MJ's time (4.42) is not likely to be reciprocated. I'd expect VY's time to be closer to someone like Mike Williams (4.57).

Five-ofan · 12-09-2005, 08:55 AM

The reason I wasnt shocked by MJs time is becuase I have seen him outrun several members of the secondary of UT whom I know to be quite fast. I guarantee you vince runs a 4.54 at the slowest. (slowest official 4.5 time) My point was that it doesnt really matter and even if it did its not a big differential. You know what terrell Davis ran the 40 in? 4.75 The same thing I do. Or did in hs. Im nowhere near the runner he was obviously. Vince has enough speed to not get caught and thats all that really matters. Jones does too. Ramonce Taylor is faster than either of them. I did end up going off on a thing about speed but I said from the begining that Vince isnt faster than Jones. We will also never find out if he can be a receiver because he will suceed as a qb. I just said that I think he is a good enough athlete that if he failed he could make it as a receiver. He did play there a little in hs. Not much unlike Jones or mcneal. (mcneal beat my hs team catching a pass in a game that we lost 10-7 I still hate him and the corner that refused to back off because he thought he could run with mcneal for that) No i dont think mcneal will be very successful as a wr so dont go off onto that just made me think of him when i thought of highly recruited qbs who played some receiver in hs. You are right that Vince is not experienced enough to draft him highly as a receiver but my point was that he is enough of an athlete and playmaker that he could still make it if not as a qb. Quite simply my argument boils down to the fact that VY has "it" Jones not so much but they could both be successful receivers and btw I do think Jones will be fine as a receiver. Its not mutually exclusive. Fun to talk football though.

endtroducing MASKED · 12-09-2005, 09:20 AM

when Matt Jones ESCAPED the angle that Stanley McClover had on him (who runs a LEGIT low 4.5 to high 4.4 40), then juked Travis Williams and then flat out ran past Junior Rosegreen (WHO WAS 15-20 YARDS UPFIELD)...he earned my respect for life. dude is a FREAK.

Drbio · 12-09-2005, 09:20 AM

I thought this was a thread about Reggie Bush?

Five-ofan · 12-09-2005, 09:47 AM

Jones is a freak. I have never denied that. Without going back Im pretty sure I said I thought he was the best athlete in the draft last year. Watch his bball highlights if you want to see his athletecism though. He wasnt particularly good at bball but he had some insane dunks.

Back to bush, he is still overrated. Still a freak too. I do hope he goes to the texans because I think David Carr deserves more talent around him but Reggie bush is NOT i repeat NOT anywhere near the best running back in cfb history let alone best player.

alby · 12-09-2005, 01:13 PM

they need an offensive line first

d. davis is a good enough back in this League

Five-ofan · 12-10-2005, 08:43 PM

He won it as expected. Still overrated but no real problem with him winning though I do think vince had a better year.

mavs413 · 12-10-2005, 11:02 PM

so repetitive.

nashtymavsfan13 · 12-18-2005, 05:28 PM

I somehow see the Jets getting him.

capitalcity · 12-18-2005, 08:02 PM

I think the better conspiracy is Bush to the Saints - then the move back to L.A..

Nash13 · 12-18-2005, 11:05 PM

As a Texans fan, i'm extremely pissed off they won agains Arizona today. I want Bush (never thought i'd say that).

Five-ofan · 12-26-2005, 04:05 PM

Whoever gets bush will rue the day they passed on leinart and young too if he comes out.

Murphy3 · 12-26-2005, 08:05 PM

In all honesty, I think Adrian Peterson is the more talented runner....

Five-ofan · 12-31-2005, 07:27 PM

You are correct and when they are both healthy it isnt that close. When healthy adrian is about as good as people act like Bush is. BTW one small note on why Bush deserves no mention anywhere near the best players in cfb history, Brad smith has more career rushing yards.

alby · 01-01-2006, 12:32 PM

but bush isn't just about the rushing yards

Five-ofan · 01-01-2006, 12:49 PM

He is also a TERRIBLE kick returner. One of the worst in the nation. An above average pass catching back and a good punt returner. Reggie bush is one of the most exciting players ever. He isnt an all time great though. They are entirely different things. I love to watch the guy play and even though i keep doing it I dont really like arguing against the guy but come on. I know the but he is better than his stats argument and to a degree he is. He is a threat so defenses have to key on him which opens things up for others but that can be said for pretty much every skill player at USC.

Bush has one amazing stat this year. 8.9 ypc. That is amazing. That however does not make him an all time great because there have been several backs who had higher rushing averages. All purpose yards for an average at best return guy dont impress me. The only reason he leads the nation in all purpose yards is sheer volume of returns. BTW, if it is "all purpose" why do passing yards not count? Do you know how many games in which reggie bush had 200 total yards for his career? 3. He just isnt what he is made out to be. I mean if ypc is all that matters, UT has two running backs who average over 7 yards a carry. I guess that means they are better than Lendale White since they have a higher rushing average? Clearly that isnt the case so it means that ypc isnt the be all end all of rushing stats.

Five-ofan · 01-01-2006, 01:08 PM

To put the worthlessness of All purpose yards into context, Tyson Thompson leads the cowboys in all purpose yards.

mavs413 · 01-01-2006, 07:26 PM

Five-o, in one of your earlier posts in this thread you named 11 Running Backs that you thought were better than Reggie in college( 6 of them played on teams either in Texas or Oklahoma). They were all great backs no doubt, but who knows the type of numbers Reggie Bush would have had he gotten more carries.

Reggie Bush has only 10 more carries than LenDale White this season, and had 60 Less in 2004. How many of those 11 split carries basically 50/50 with another back like Bush has?

Obviously Bush isnt the best college player when it comes to stats, but splitting carries with another talented runner that is just as good as Adrian Peterson is, and having a Heisman winner at quarterback had a little something to do with that.

*The NFL is going to be absolutely loaded with talented young Running backs in a year after these players are all on rosters.
Steven Jackson, Juilus Jones, Larry Johnson, McGahee, Kevin Jones, Carnell Williams, Ronnie Brown, Cedric Benson, Tatum Bell and then you add Bush, Peterson, Moroney, DeAngelo, and LenDale White.
Imagine all those players in their prime at the same time!
Thats just in the last two drafts and this upcomming one + Peterson in 2007.
Tomlinson, Alexander, James, Rudi Johnson, Portis, Dominick Davis are also still very young too.

Five-ofan · 01-01-2006, 08:35 PM

I love lendale white but reggie bush isnt as good as peterson much less lendale white. The thing is if you give him those extra carries A) his average goes down because he has to get the tough yards instead of just the pretty ones and B) he is much more likely to sustain some type of an injury. He may be capable of being an every down back and I think he is but its not proven. Im sure there are several other backs better than reggie bush too but those were just off the top of my head.

Five-ofan · 01-01-2006, 08:43 PM

I honestly feel that if Bush has no platoon back he ends up with around 4000 career rushing yards at an average of about 6.0 ypc. Again, nowhere near an all time great. The fact of the matter is that other than his excitingness, there are exactly 0 ways in which you can make a case for bush as an all time great cfb player.

alby · 01-01-2006, 08:46 PM

caddy and ronnie split the carries, they turned out fine IMO.

actually better than I expected, in terms of being an NFL caliber RB.

Five-ofan · 01-01-2006, 09:00 PM

Im not looking it up but they didnt split them to near the extent that bush and white do did they? I remember caddy getting alot more. Bush is capable of running between the tackles and of being an every down back imo BUT if you make him an every down back his ypc which is his only amazing stats drops just because invariably over time the more you run between the tackles the lower your ypc is and if he was an every down back he would have to run inside more. Stats arent the only thing. I realize that players can be better or worse than their stats BUT not to the extent that people are making Bush out to be. With adrian hurt he was probably the best back in cfb this year though harrison would beg to differ (i havent seen harrison play much so im not gonna comment either way)

That said there is someone who is at least as good as bush has been this year every single year. They may not do it with the flair he does but year in and year out others are at least on the same level. Reggie bush is a great player and he is fun to watch play but the constant overhyping of him is really getting old. I mean seriously if he comes out and rushes for 1400 yards and a 4.4 ypc average next year some people will be dissapointed when that is the absolute best that he is capable of. The hype is just ridiculous. That is my point. Not to diminish bush. I really do love to watch him other than this upcoming game but I hear lots of people say well UT cant hold him under 200 yards when only 2 teams have failed to hold him under 200 yards in his entire career. One of those teams went on to lose to La Tech and tulsa. The other one was spanked by Arizona earlier this year. I cant wait to see who is right but I really doubt bush has over 130 total yards(not all purpose) against texas. I have gone out on a limb and said one of the UT backs outgains him. I cant wait for this game. One thing is for sure though, either I will look like a genius or an ass. Im hoping its the former

mavs413 · 01-02-2006, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

I honestly feel that if Bush has no platoon back he ends up with around 4000 career rushing yards at an average of about 6.0 ypc. Again, nowhere near an all time great.

Bush would probably have averaged about 260 carries a year over the 3 years.
At only 6 yards a carry, after his junior year, he would finish at around 4,700 yards.
That would rank him at #21 all-time in career rushing yards.

Of the 20 rushers that would be ahead of him, only one had more than 4,700 in only 3 years, Herschel Walker at 5,259. But, Walker averaged 331 rushes a season, which would have been 70 more a year than Bush. Walker would have finished with only 4,100 if he only carried the ball 260 times a year at his ypc average which was 5.29 during his 3 years at Georgia.

And that is if you think Reggie Bush would have gotten only 6 yards a carry. I actually think it would be between 6.5-7.
So 260 carries a year at 6.5 yards a carry for 4 years gives you 6,800 career yards. That number puts him at #1 All-time. 400 more career yards than Ron Dayne, who averaged 279 carries per year.

endtroducing MASKED · 01-02-2006, 05:01 AM

Carnell got a lot more carries, even in the senior year when things were much more spread out. Ronnie was the utility man, a role Bush played until this year

Just211 · 01-02-2006, 08:15 AM

Although I don't like Mike Martz, One situation I can see being near perfect is Martz to Houston. With Carr at QB, good WR's and then Pick Bush to be your Marshall faulk clone, it'd really have potential to be a great offense. Of course they'd need to sign some linemen

alby · 01-02-2006, 10:46 AM

i would draft linemen if I were Houston

they already have a pretty good back in Davis

Bush to the Jets however..........

endtroducing MASKED · 01-02-2006, 01:15 PM

Houston needs BIG MARCUS.

dirno2000 · 01-02-2006, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by endtroducing MASKED

Houston needs BIG MARCUS.

Scouts Inc has him rated as the 32nd best player in the draft and Kiper has him ranked 4th among offensive tackles. It's still early but he could be a player that ends up on the Cowboy's radar. We definitly need help on the line.

Five-ofan · 01-02-2006, 02:29 PM

Bush would not have averaged 260 carries a year. He was nowhere near ready his freshmen year for that kind of workload. Jamaal charles has been a good bit better this year than bush was as a freshmen. Im not saying the guy isnt a stud he is. But he isnt close to being the greatest cfb player ever. That is the argument that i have been trying to make.

Five-ofan · 01-05-2006, 12:53 PM

I dont want to come off as an I told you so guy but Ocelot will you concede the better runner point now? We will never find out whether vince can play another position because he will be a great qb but if you think bush is better than him you are a nut. Vince Young with a big fuck you to the heisman voters as well. Reggie bush, once in a generation my ass. Yeah I know this will get edited but oh well.