Cuban and Mavs players talk about Devin - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

AxdemxO · 12-16-2008, 03:37 PM

....and Devin talks about Devin

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=10949

I think this is a good article where you get everyone view on the trade and how they feel. I completely agree that had Devin stayed here he wouldn't have been as good.

SMC0007 · 12-16-2008, 03:40 PM

Mavs Regretting Harris/Kidd Trade?

By: Bill Ingram Last Updated: 12/16/08 6:46 AM ET | 1823 times read

Adjust font size:The chances are you've had this conversation. I've certainly had it more than a dozen times, both on radio and TV shows as well as with friends in Dallas who love the Mavericks. As we watch Devin Harris go out and score 47 points against Phoenix and hit the 30-point mark more often than not, people want to know what the Mavericks were smoking when they traded him for the "old and tired" Jason Kidd.

As well as Harris is playing, and he's certainly on track to be an All-Star and possibly this year's Most Improved Player, we have to stop and think about what kind of team the Mavericks are and what kind of team the New Jersey Nets are. There are few similarities, and to a man the Mavs feel Kidd is the better player for their team and their system.

"I think it's a win-win for both teams," Mavericks owner Mark Cuban told HOOPSWORLD. "Devin's having a great season, we're proud of him, but he's not going to have the ball in his hands every single time if he's here. They're a two-man team and they dominate the ball. That wasn't going to happen here. We needed a guy to distribute the ball, provide leadership, and that's what we got. Would I do the deal again? Yep."

"All situations are different," adds veteran swingman Jerry Stackhouse. "If Devin had never been traded, who's to say that he would be able to play the same style that he's playing right now and playing as loose and as confident as he's playing right now. They have some different pieces around him, too. They have some spot-up guys around him. There aren't a lot of guys who stand in the post and demand the ball and get in his way. There are other teams that could give him the ball and tell him to do his thing and he wouldn't be as successful as he has been because of the personnel. Personnel has a lot to do with it. Here we're going to get the ball to Dirk a huge percentage of the time and I don't think the Nets have another guy who they're looking to just run the ball through, Vince Carter included."

"Devin's playing well, which is good for him, but you can't live in the past," says Dirk Nowitzki. "I love playing with Jason Kidd. He's been great around here, not only on the court but off the court he's been great. We're comfortable playing with him and we just have to move on."

Overwhelmingly, the feeling among Mavericks who played with Devin is that he wouldn't have become the player he is for the Nets if he hadn't been traded to a team where he could dominate the ball.

"You've got to be on a team where you dominate the ball," says Cuban. "That's what Devin does best. Clear out and let Devin go. They're not giving it to Yi Jianlian. They're not giving it to Lopez. They're not giving it to Bobby Simmons, who just stands in the corner. One time they give it to Devin, one time they give it to Vince. That's perfect for them, that's the way they designed their offense. It's kind of like when Michael Finley first got here. We just gave it to Fin. He went from a guy who was just a slasher to an All-Star. That's just who he was."

"Devin's playing well, but you have to attribute that to the system he's in," agrees Terry. "He doesn't have the team that we have over here. We have a lot of talent and sometimes you have to defer to other guys. He's being able to shine in a system where he's the focal point. Over here, obviously, he wouldn't be. He's maybe the third or fourth option over here. We're happy that he's doing well, but at the same time you never know if he'd be as effective here."

Harris couldn't agree more, and told HOOPSWORLD that he feels he can be more aggressive with his team in New Jersey than he could ever have been with the Mavericks.

"Dallas has a very balanced type of scoring in that they've got their top two guys in Dirk and Josh, and that third scorer then kind of varies. Jet's played well this year because J-Kidd's a little bit more of a distributor, but I agree that I wouldn't have had the same shot to be as aggressive as I have been here. They need me to score here, but there those guys need to score, and they need to get the ball."

"Devin wouldn't be doing what he's doing in this structure," explains Cuban. "Devin would be asked to create plays to open up room for Dirk. That's not Devin. when he was a one-man fastbreak for us he was phenomenal. That's just a different structure. It's kind of like when Steve Nash left here. Nellie was talking about how Nash wouldn't last and he was cutting his minutes, he goes to a system designed for him and he's an MVP. I hope Devin gets the MVP. He's the type of kid that's great for the NBA, but we have an MVP here. That's the difference."

Nowitzki even went so far as to suggest that perhaps former coach Avery Johnson was holding Harris back. It's an interesting point, especially for those of us who saw Avery night after night trying to mold and shape his young point guard.

"Maybe it's good for him to get away from Avery for a little bit," says the Mavs' MVP. "He was looking over his shoulder constantly and it just seems like he's playing free in New Jersey. He doesn't have to worry about anything, he's just playing his game. Maybe that change was good for him. I'm happy for him. He's playing well. He was a great kid from the beginning and we all knew he was going to be a good point guard in this league. I just think Jason fits a little better in what we're trying to do."

Jason Terry was very close to Johnson, and as a point guard he had more of Avery's undivided attention than the rest of the squad. He disagrees with Dirk's assertion that perhaps their former coach was limiting Harris' development.

"I don't think Avery overmanaged us; I think he coached to his team," says Terry. "He coached to the players that he had. When you're a point guard and then you're a coach who played the position, you're going to put extra emphasis on coaching and teaching that position. He did a great job for me, coming from Atlanta, being a scoring guard, he taught me to manage the game. Even though I'm at the two now I'm still out there thinking like Avery would be thinking. I know he helped JJ (Barea) and he helped Devin Harris, as you see by the way he's leading that New Jersey team."

"We all knew Devin was extremely talented and it was just a matter of time before he blossomed into the player that he's playing like right now," adds Stackhouse. "It's just that he had growing pains in getting there and unfortunately we experienced some of those growing pains last season. Our team was constructed, at the time, as a team that was built to win right now. There was just a moment there where everybody felt that we had to do something. When you've got Jason Kidd being dangled out there, a guy who's a proven winner, who's been to the Finals, and maybe didn't have the best supporting cast - you tend to think that he might be the missing piece. You had to wonder how much longer Devin was going to have those growing pains. I think he's proving that his learning curve was almost at the end and now he's showing that he's an extremely gifted and talented player."

The answer to the question of whether or not the Dallas Mavericks regret the trade that brought Jason Kidd to town in exchange for Devin Harris, then, is an emphatic "no." They recognized Harris' potential, but they also knew they needed more of a set-up man to instigate their offense. Jason Kidd is filling that void for Dallas, just as Harris filling a much bigger void on both ends of the floor for the New Jersey Nets.

It seems this trade is truly working out for both teams, with no regrets on either side.

Cuban is a Tard. Not like he's gonna say "hell no I wouldn't do it again, are you crazy" but still...

AxdemxO · 12-16-2008, 03:42 PM

wow looking through that again, a lot is said. Not that its negative but still, those are pretty big quotes.

basketballgirl25 · 12-16-2008, 03:43 PM

well you know if anyone did regret it I don't think they would come out and say it, but it worked of great for both teams, mavs got Kidd and Nets well are better then people except. So both teams got a great deal.

SMC0007 · 12-16-2008, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by basketballgirl25

well you know if anyone did regret it I don't think they would come out and say it, but it worked of great for both teams, mavs got Kidd and Nets well are better then people except. So both teams got a great deal.

Nah, Nets got the better deal... I like Kidd, I'm a fan of his game. But I pretty much agree with this:

http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showth...t=34424&page=4

Flacolaco · 12-16-2008, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by basketballgirl25

mavs got Kidd and Nets well are better then people except.

Are you doing a bit?

Are you and horse in cahoots?

DevinHarriswillstart · 12-16-2008, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Mavs Regretting Harris/Kidd Trade?

By: Bill Ingram Last Updated: 12/16/08 6:46 AM ET | 1823 times read

"I think it's a win-win for both teams," Mavericks owner Mark Cuban told HOOPSWORLD. "Devin's having a great season, we're proud of him, but he's not going to have the ball in his hands every single time if he's here. They're a two-man team and they dominate the ball. That wasn't going to happen here. We needed a guy to distribute the ball, provide leadership, and that's what we got. Would I do the deal again? Yep."

Yet the main reason to bring Kidd here was to keep the ball in his hands most of the time, right?

I still don't buy it. We have a two-man team basically here who dominate the scoring in Dirk and Terry. So you couldn't have that with Harris and Dirk why exactly? Now maybe Terry wouldn't be the player he is right now if we had kept Harris, but it's still all nonsense that Harris wouldn't be at least at the same level he is right now.

Steve Nash blossomed around the same time Devin did so why give up on him and not Nash? (at least at the point where Nash was basically being booed at home games)

SMC0007 · 12-16-2008, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Yet the main reason to bring Kidd here was to keep the ball in his hands most of the time, right?

I still don't buy it. We have a two-man team basically here who dominate the scoring in Dirk and Terry. So you couldn't have that with Harris and Dirk why exactly? Now maybe Terry wouldn't be the player he is right now if we had kept Harris, but it's still all nonsense that Harris wouldn't be at least at the same level he is right now.

Steve Nash blossomed around the same time Devin did so why give up on him and not Nash? (at least at the point where Nash was basically being booed at home games)

Man. Reading back thru this, it is riddled with BFNS. These articles are cool to read but all the quotes from the players are useless, they wouldn't tell the truth. Not that they are generally flat out liars but they can't say what they think and I'm not so sure they aren't sitting around thinking "Mother F********cker". That figures. Now he's going off and we have to watch this Sht all over again. But now were not as good as we were when Nash left, so it's harder to justify. Maybe he won't win MVP 2 times in a row.

LonghornDub · 12-16-2008, 04:11 PM

Devin is a nice player, but anybody with half an ounce of basketball sense knows he wouldn't have the same kind of success as if he'd stayed here. I'm not sure why anybody would dare to hint that that's not the case.

AxdemxO · 12-16-2008, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Man. Reading back thru this, it is riddled with BFNS. These articles are cool to read but all the quotes from the players are useless, they wouldn't tell the truth. Not that they are generally flat out liars but they can't say what they think and I'm not so sure they aren't sitting around thinking "Mother F********cker". That figures. Now he's going off and we have to watch this Sht all over again. But now were not as good as we were when Nash left, so it's harder to justify. Maybe he won't win MVP 2 times in a row.

I think they can say what they want, as you see there at the end where Dirk and Jet disagree a little. I think they all enjoy playing with Kidd though and are happy for Harris. End of story

AxdemxO · 12-16-2008, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Yet the main reason to bring Kidd here was to keep the ball in his hands most of the time, right?

I still don't buy it. We have a two-man team basically here who dominate the scoring in Dirk and Terry. So you couldn't have that with Harris and Dirk why exactly? Now maybe Terry wouldn't be the player he is right now if we had kept Harris, but it's still all nonsense that Harris wouldn't be at least at the same level he is right now.

Steve Nash blossomed around the same time Devin did so why give up on him and not Nash? (at least at the point where Nash was basically being booed at home games)

you missed the point about having the ball in his hands. Kidd has the ball and he find the people and once in a while looks to score himself. Its good for this team because we have Dirk, Jet, Howard

Devin has the ball and he looks to drive and score all the time and once in a while to find someone else. Its good for NJ because he does that most of the game and when he doesn't Carter does, but it wouldn't be good for this team because well we have those other 3 guys.

AxdemxO · 12-16-2008, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Devin is a nice player, but anybody with half an ounce of basketball sense knows he wouldn't have the same kind of success as if he'd stayed here. I'm not sure why anybody would dare to hint that that's not the case.

agree

basketballgirl25 · 12-16-2008, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Man. Reading back thru this, it is riddled with BFNS. These articles are cool to read but all the quotes from the players are useless, they wouldn't tell the truth. Not that they are generally flat out liars but they can't say what they think and I'm not so sure they aren't sitting around thinking "Mother F********cker". That figures. Now he's going off and we have to watch this Sht all over again. But now were not as good as we were when Nash left, so it's harder to justify. Maybe he won't win MVP 2 times in a row.

I have to agree with you on this, watching sports I've learned most players won't tell the whole truth, well of course some will, but most of the time they don't.

SMC0007 · 12-16-2008, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Devin is a nice player, but anybody with half an ounce of basketball sense knows he wouldn't have the same kind of success as if he'd stayed here. I'm not sure why anybody would dare to hint that that's not the case.

He's just nice huh? haha

I think it's up in the air at this point if he would have had more success now with another year under his belt than with Avery and the old system of previous years. I'm not gonna claim to know all that for a fact. Not sure why anybody would dare do that either. Either way, I'm posative he could at least produce what Kidd has thus far (different stat categories).

SMC0007 · 12-16-2008, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

I think they can say what they want, as you see there at the end where Dirk and Jet disagree a little. I think they all enjoy playing with Kidd though and are happy for Harris. End of story

Well of course they can say what they want. rest my case

DevinHarriswillstart · 12-16-2008, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Devin is a nice player, but anybody with half an ounce of basketball sense knows he wouldn't have the same kind of success as if he'd stayed here. I'm not sure why anybody would dare to hint that that's not the case.

Yes that's right. Everyone is a moron if they don't agree with that statement. Whatever. He might not have the exact same stats but 20 pts 6 assists per game was hardly unreachable here. If Howard was injured the same way he is this year then why would there be any doubt of Harris blossoming? The only stat that would decrease a little would be the scoring but not his affect on the game.

Denial is tough to deal with man.

Ounce of success.... Please...

BGMaverick9 · 12-16-2008, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Yes that's right. Everyone is a moron if they don't agree with that statement. Whatever. He might not have the exact same stats but 20 pts 6 assists per game was hardly unreachable here. If Howard was injured the same way he is this year then why would there be any doubt of Harris blossoming? The only stat that would decrease a little would be the scoring but not his affect on the game.

Denial is tough to deal with man.

Ounce of success.... Please...

Harris had an effect on different players on this roster...Jet was a big player who was affected by Devin, I think more often than not in a negative way. Easily though, the same could be said on the effect Jet had on Devin. One was thriving and the other one struggled. Another thing was Devin's style of play, it always got him banged up and always missing time. If this team is in the win now mode, can your "QB" have 1-3 week trips sitting on the bench in a suit?

If Josh wasn't hurt, are you figuring Devin blossoms?

SMC0007 · 12-16-2008, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Harris had an effect on different players on this roster...Jet was a big player who was affected by Devin, I think more often than not in a negative way. Easily though, the same could be said on the effect Jet had on Devin. One was thriving and the other one struggled. Another thing was Devin's style of play, it always got him banged up and always missing time. If this team is in the win now mode, can your "QB" have 1-3 week trips sitting on the bench in a suit?

If Josh wasn't hurt, are you figuring Devin blossoms?

I don't think Devin changed his style of play in NJ, he still looks like he plays with wreckless abandon. Besides, Isn't Josh hurt as much or more than Devin? If were in win now mode it's gonna be hard to win games without Jho anyway.

I think FO got it backwards at best, when they got rid of Devin before Avery.

AxdemxO · 12-16-2008, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

you missed the point about having the ball in his hands. Kidd has the ball and he find the people and once in a while looks to score himself. Its good for this team because we have Dirk, Jet, Howard

Devin has the ball and he looks to drive and score all the time and once in a while to find someone else. Its good for NJ because he does that most of the game and when he doesn't Carter does, but it wouldn't be good for this team because well we have those other 3 guys.

..............................

BGMaverick9 · 12-16-2008, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I don't think Devin changed his style of play in NJ, he still looks like he plays with wreckless abandon. Besides, Isn't Josh hurt as much or more than Devin? If were in win now mode it's gonna be hard to win games without Jho anyway.

I think FO got it backwards at best, when they got rid of Devin before Avery.

If Devin is as great as people make him out to be and better than Kidd, Devin should be able to make up the short departure of Josh anyways...shouldn't he? Most people would there are 1-2 positions you need to be rock solid in, dependability and intangibles. Whether it's 1 or 2, Point Guard is in that equation.

It apparently wasn't THAT hard to win games without Josh in this past streak.

And if he's playing the same now in NJ then he did in Dallas, I expect him to keep on his track of missing games. There was no automatic way to suggest Devin was going to light it up in Dallas, post-Avery.

LonghornDub · 12-16-2008, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Yes that's right. Everyone is a moron if they don't agree with that statement. Whatever. He might not have the exact same stats but 20 pts 6 assists per game was hardly unreachable here. If Howard was injured the same way he is this year then why would there be any doubt of Harris blossoming? The only stat that would decrease a little would be the scoring but not his affect on the game.

Denial is tough to deal with man.

Ounce of success.... Please...

Yes, Harris would have blossomed for the 10 games Howard was injured. Then, he would have gone back to be 3rd or 4th fiddle.

I'm not saying he wouldn't have improved, I'm saying he wouldn't have been as productive as he is on the Nets (which you yourself just admitted). That's why you can't point to what he's doing with the Nets and say, "Look! Look! I was right!" Different teams, different systems, different contexts. Not comparable--if you have an ounce of basketball sense, anyway.

By the way, it's pretty nonsensical to accuse me of denial. What exactly would I be denying? It's not as though the Mavs were going anywhere if they kept Harris. Are you insinuating that I'm subconsciously convincing myself that the Mavs wouldn't be legitimate contenders if they had just kept him, whereas they really would be toward the top of the conference if they had? Yeah, that's sensible.

SMC0007 · 12-16-2008, 07:09 PM

[QUOTE=BGMaverick9;942641]

Quote:

If Devin is as great as people make him out to be and better than Kidd, Devin should be able to make up the short departure of Josh anyways...shouldn't he?

I personally don't think he's proved himself as "great" yet, but if we were put the burden of carrying the team w/out JHO on Devin, the same should be said for Kidd. Either way, I don't think we can expect to win a lot games against good teams without JHO unless were really deep and that obviously isn't the case. I wouldn't expect teams to win when their 2nd best player is out for extended games.

Quote:

And if he's playing the same now in NJ then he did in Dallas, I expect him to keep on his track of missing games. There was no automatic way to suggest Devin was going to light it up in Dallas, post-Avery

Right, and I am one that thinks this works both ways. We just don't know what might have been. It will be argued for a long time I imagine, but the better he gets the more it will be questioned. I feel safe to say that Kidd has brought some things to the table, but I'm not sold that it would be more than or equal to what Devin had or would have this year regardless of post-Avery. It's not like Devin would have been worse. We are in a situation where we have given up too much for what we got in return in the deal. Even under the circumstances of not having Jho for a good stretch.

BGMaverick9 · 12-16-2008, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I personally don't think he's proved himself as "great" yet, but if we were put the burden of carrying the team w/out JHO on Devin, the same should be said for Kidd. Either way, I don't think we can expect to win a lot games against good teams without JHO unless were really deep and that obviously isn't the case. I wouldn't expect teams to win when their 2nd best player is out for extended games.

Right, and I am one that thinks this works both ways. We just don't know what might have been. It will be argued for a long time I imagine, but the better he gets the more it will be questioned. I feel safe to say that Kidd has brought some things to the table, but I'm not sold that it would be more than or equal to what Devin had or would have this year regardless of post-Avery. It's not like Devin would have been worse. We are in a situation where we have given up too much for what we got in return in the deal. Even under the circumstances of not having Jho for a good stretch.

In a situation where Josh is hurt and you're telling me to pick between Devin and Kidd to run this team, I'm going to pick Kidd more often than not. Are you insinuating that Kidd hasn't done a good job running this team?

It's stated in the article numerous times, even by Devin...his role in NJ is different than what it was in Dallas. Trying to compare him now and beyond vs his past isn't going to really get you anywhere. He is 1a or 1b in NJ, w/ Dallas at best he was number 3 or 4...they needed him to be a facilitator. Since he's been in the league heading to the time of the deal, I wasn't sold on the fact he could fill that role in Dallas. AxdemxO had it right, he's going to drive and mainly try to finish...that's not what we need our PG to do when you have Dirk, Jet and Josh on the roster.

SMC0007 · 12-16-2008, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

In a situation where Josh is hurt and you're telling me to pick between Devin and Kidd to run this team, I'm going to pick Kidd more often than not. Are you insinuating that Kidd hasn't done a good job running this team?

Well IMO, I take Harris over Kidd in a situation JHo is hurt because he drives to score more than Kidd we would need the scoring more than the distribution when our scorer (that doesn't pass much) is out.

I'm not insinuating that, Kidd has done good things here. I do think he could be more aggressive offensively attacking the basket off dribble, and some other things need not get into. I wasn't against the trade when it happened but now I just wish we hadn't give up as much as we did in the deal. Devin made it this way because of the way he's playing more than the Mavs FO dropped the ball. No one could know he was gonna play THIS well but I'd take Harris to run this or any other team over Kidd at this point. I guess just a case of to each; his own.

Quote:

It's stated in the article numerous times, even by Devin...his role in NJ is different than what it was in Dallas. Trying to compare him now and beyond vs his past isn't going to really get you anywhere. He is 1a or 1b in NJ, w/ Dallas at best he was number 3 or 4...they needed him to be a facilitator. Since he's been in the league heading to the time of the deal, I wasn't sold on the fact he could fill that role in Dallas. AxdemxO had it right, he's going to drive and mainly try to finish...that's not what we need our PG to do when you have Dirk, Jet and Josh on the roster.

He made himself what he is there by his play, I'm not sure they thought, "hey DH will come here and be 1a behind VC". They were/are in rebuild mode and struck gold seemingly with him, He just developed faster than anyone thought he would.

IF DH was here playing solid as he is now, we could make moves to build and cater to him (along with Dirk) easier than we can now with Kidd. With that kind of talent, there's no reason why he should be 3rd or 4th option at best. Keep in mind all of this is hindsight and most is speculation

Oh and AxdemxO didn't have it right, he exaggerated and said "Devin has the ball and he looks to drive and score all the time and once in a while to find someone else".

Mavs Rule · 12-16-2008, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

Are you doing a bit?

Are you and horse in cahoots?

Good call.

Re-Dirk-ulous · 12-16-2008, 09:25 PM

The reason we got Kidd here was for team leadership. Dirk did not want to be the leader, he didn't feel confortable with that role. Remember, Dirk was for the Kidd trade (how can you forget about his gigantic Ronald McDonald smile at the all-star break).

So far, Kidd hasn't really demonstrated leadership, and dirk has accepted the fact that this is HIS team and is progressing nicely as the leader

mavsfan1000 · 12-16-2008, 09:52 PM

Cuban is in denial but what do you expect?

Thespiralgoeson · 12-16-2008, 11:54 PM

The Kidd trade f**king sucked. Honestly, Cubes has made some dumb decisions since buying the team, but this one I think tops the list. I sincerely believe that the trade is singlehandedly responsible for the Mavs not being title contenders anymore.

Stranger · 12-17-2008, 12:19 AM

Even if you would rather have Kidd's leadership on this team, the trade still looks really bad to me. It's going to look worse and worse as Kidd ages, and possibly signs elsewhere next year. The trade is also the reason why we paid our entire MLE exception to watch Diop miss layups. The pick we sent in the trade turned into Ryan Anderson, a decent looking power forward who put up 21/9 in his last game. And we still have to send another first rounder to New Jersey next year.

dirno2000 · 12-17-2008, 12:38 AM

Devin wouldn't score as much in Dallas but I don't see how that would make him any less valuable. Tony Parker's numbers are held down by Manu and Duncan but it doesn't make him any less vital nor does make him a lesser player. You could actually argue that from an efficiency standpoint Devin would be better here since he could pick his spots instead of having to carry the scoring load every night.

nowhereman · 12-17-2008, 12:43 AM

Am I the only one seeing the obvious point here?

Devin would not have had the same numbers, sure. But he clearly possesses a very valuable skillset. One that the mavs are sorely lacking now that he isn't here. That skillset wouldn't go away because other players need shots. It would always be there and I think clever coaching could maximize both his and Dirk's abilities.

Say we had Kidd all along and never had Devin Harris. Who here at this point wouldn't do the trade the other way?

nowhereman · 12-17-2008, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Devin wouldn't score as much in Dallas but I don't see how that would make him any less valuable. Tony Parker's numbers are held down by Manu and Duncan but it doesn't make him any less vital nor does make him a lesser player. You could actually argue that from an efficiency standpoint Devin would be better here since he could pick his spots instead of having to carry the scoring load every night.

BINGO. beat me to it by 5 minutes.

particleman · 12-17-2008, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Devin is a nice player, but anybody with half an ounce of basketball sense knows he wouldn't have the same kind of success as if he'd stayed here. I'm not sure why anybody would dare to hint that that's not the case.

I don't think anyone would make the argument that he would have "the same kind of success" here. That however is in no way an acceptable argument for "why Jason Kidd is a better fit for the Mavericks than Devin Harris." (And I'm not attributing that argument to you, LonghornDub, but I have seen people use your same basic statement to defend the trade).

I'm sure if the Spurs traded Tony Parker to an eastern conference team where he was the primary scorer he would also average 20+ points per game and generally put up much more impressive numbers than he does now... Does that mean the Spurs should trade him for a an older point guard who can rebound and distribute the ball better? Of course not!

I think the same was true of Devin Harris and the Mavs. If he were still on the team I'm sure his numbers wouldn't be as impressive as they are now. But we'd have a much younger point guard with a great contract that could actually penetrate (and is taller than 5'7"), get to the free throw line, consistently knock down his jump shot, and play solid defense against almost any guard in the league. Instead we have a point guard that, in the majority of our offensive possessions, dribbles up to front court, passes the ball immediately, then waits outside the three point line to either shoot a three pointer or swing a pass around to another shooter standing on the perimeter. He's too inactive on offense to make the opposing PG work (I think this is a HUGE problem, when we play the better teams Kidd is chasing his guy around nonstop while the opposing PG gets to basically take a break on defense, and we wonder why we get killed in the 4th quarter...), and some nights he seems way too slow to stop anyone on defense anyway.

Anyway, I think I'm getting away from my point here, which is that just because Devin Harris' numbers wouldn't be as impressive if he were still a Maverick doesn't mean that Jason Kidd is a better fit for our team. We'll never know what he would have done with Carlisle as his coach, but my impression is that Devin Harris was bound to improve playing for ANY coach other than Avery Johnson... and I think we would be a MUCH better team this year if Devin Harris was our PG instead of Jason Kidd.

***Edited to add: It looks like Nowhereman and Dirno both beat me to the punch on this one by a couple of minutes...

nowhereman · 12-17-2008, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stranger

Even if you would rather have Kidd's leadership on this team, the trade still looks really bad to me. It's going to look worse and worse as Kidd ages, and possibly signs elsewhere next year. The trade is also the reason why we paid our entire MLE exception to watch Diop miss layups. The pick we sent in the trade turned into Ryan Anderson, a decent looking power forward who put up 21/9 in his last game. And we still have to send another first rounder to New Jersey next year.

Not to mention our extremely valuble KVH trade asset.

Dirkadirkastan · 12-17-2008, 12:46 AM

The question isn't whether Devin would be as good here as he is in NJ. The question is simply whether he would have contributed more than Kidd has.

dirno2000 · 12-17-2008, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

The question isn't whether Devin would be as good here as he is in NJ. The question is simply whether he would have contributed more than Kidd has.

If you're trying to justify the trade the question is, does Kidd bring significantly more to the table than Devin would have? If not it's clearly a bad trade since Kidd is ten years older and we paid a premium to get him.

basketballgirl25 · 12-17-2008, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stranger

The pick we sent in the trade turned into Ryan Anderson, a decent looking power forward who put up 21/9 in his last game. And we still have to send another first rounder to New Jersey next year.

and this is one of the reasons why Net fans are going to cheer Kidd, that and he got us Devin Harris

Tokey41 · 12-17-2008, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

The Kidd trade f**king sucked. Honestly, Cubes has made some dumb decisions since buying the team, but this one I think tops the list. I sincerely believe that the trade is singlehandedly responsible for the Mavs not being title contenders anymore.

Either that or letting Nash walk for nothing. I'd probably put the Nash debacle on top, but this trade still has plenty of time to make us look foolish.

The fact that we were too dumb to know what we had/could have had doesn't make this a good trade for us, that's such a weak argument.

Dirkadirkastan · 12-17-2008, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

If you're trying to justify the trade the question is, does Kidd bring significantly more to the table than Devin would have? If not it's clearly a bad trade since Kidd is ten years older and we paid a premium to get him.

I'm saying I could care less what he does in NJ, whether he sucks or rules. I only care about the two different scenarios here, that's all. This "Devin wouldn't be putting the same numbers up here" crap is putting it in the wrong light, because he could conceivably perform less well here than there, but still better overall than Kidd.

ty · 12-17-2008, 03:43 AM

Devin isn't on the Mavericks anymore.

He can go screw himself for all I care.

I'm not a 2007 Mavericks fan. I'm a Mavericks fan.