Bradley in the 4th

[Murphy3]

I don't really have any stats for this thread or anything else. I just have a question to ask. Do you think Bradley should get more PT in the 4th..say, perhaps in the final 8 minutes? There's been a few times recently where the Mavs were just destroyed defensively in the 4th in giving up big leads. I've been disappointed that Bradley wasn't called upon to help out defensively much at all in those instances. Should he receive more PT down the stretch of games? Sure, certain match-ups can sometimes dictate who's in and who's out. However, I do believe that, more often than not, the Mavs can use an inside presence.

[dude1394]

I wish I could say yes but no I don't. I have a couple of reasons for my feeling:
- He doesn't handle fatigue well. This could be fixed with playing him less I guess early.
- I just don't see how we get by with jamison/walker being on the bench. Maybe at first but if you assume long-term I don't see it.
- I'm not sure the rest of the team trusts him enough at the end of games. To finish a dunk, catch a pass, etc.
- I'm also not sure that either the fans or bradly himself could stand the scrutiny.

BUT... If jamison or walker were gone I would probably do it. So I may be talking myself back around. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[Murphy3]

Dude, I know that you know that it's equally important to stop a team as it is to keep on scoring. I just don't see why you can't have a decent balance.

As for Bradley finishing. Well, instruct Bradley to kick the ball out if he grabs an offensive rebound and doesn't have an easy slam/lay up.

[dude1394]

Yes I do. That's why I want a shot-blocker who has a little bit of offensive game. As far as kicking it out unless you have an easy slam, you've been watching him for what 5 years now, He's never done it, he thinks he's ok and then does that dipsy-doodle deal and throws up some wild hook shot or something, it drives the rest of the team crazy. That breeds indecision and a desire to not throw it to him when open.

But again what do you do with jamison/walker?

[mavsfan7]

i think we should finish off games that we are ahead in with a lineup of Nash/finley/Howard/Dirk/Bradley Which means we need to trade either Walker or Jamison because both of them would be sitting on the bench, and to be honest I dont think Walker would be happy on the bench at the end of games, but jamison has already been willing to. I just think we need that defensive three in the game to gaurd the best offensive threat of the gaurds. We need to close games with a defensive linuep. Just my opinion would like to know your thoughts. thanks

[dirno2000]

My initial response was a resounding yet. Then I read The Dude's post and he makes a good point: Shawn doesn't play well when he's winded. He's always improves the defense, but there have been too many times when he'll give up an offensive rebound because the opponent has more energy then he does (the Denver loss is a prime example).

Furthermore, it's kind of hard to tell his teammates not to pass him the ball when he's open on offense.

If we're playing a team with a big active front line, we need him in the game for the defensive presence and we'll just have to play 4 on 5. If we can get away with it, I'd rather play Jamison. He's a liability on the defensive glass also since he's so easy to push around. What he gives you is one of the top offensive rebounders in the game, and a player who can finish around the basket when he grabs the rebound.

[dude1394]

I do not think that jamison would be "happy" sitting on the bench at the end of games. I also do not want a rook in there at the end of games either.

[Jamisonite]

I think Bradley should get a big chunk of minutes in the 1st and 3rd quarters... Maybe a few in the 4th but not in the end(he tends to choke)

[mavsfan7]

I didnt say hed be happy I just said he seems willing to. So just because hes a rookie you dont want him in at the end of games. he plays great defense and he doesnt play like a typical rookie either. I would just rather have a defensive lineup on the floor than people who cant stay infront of their man. Just my opinion

[dude1394]

Yup, just because he's a rookie I don't want him in the end of games. He will make mistakes, mark my words. I like howard but he's still a rook and this is a really loaded team.

But with respect to jamison. He's shown he's willing to come off the bench in the 1st period but be out there during crunch time. For a stud like jamison, crunch time is where it's at, that's where all of the glory, drama is. Starting is ok, ending is much better.

I would expect him to scream if he wasn't finishing.

Your opinion is most welcome here mavsfan7, keep 'em coming. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[mavsfan7]

thanks dude

[Murphy3]

I actually have no problem with Bradley taking an open jumper at virtually any point in the game. I'd rather him take an open jumper with a minute left on the clock in the 4th than AW.

[dude1394]

so this whole thread was just so that you could compare shawns shooting to walker? *grin*

[chumdawg]

I would like to see Bradley more in the 4th. In fact, I was quite pleased (and quite surprised) when he got subbed in at Portland in the 4th. Say what you want about Shawn, I think it's readily apparent that we give a lot more easy baskets with him out of the game. If we're sitting on a ten-point lead, I'd love to see him in there.

This reminds me of something I meant to ask you guys about at the time, but never did. Remember the game last week when Bradley started and was hot in the 1st? I think it was against Philly. I think he scored ten points in the quarter, or something like that. Well, then he started the second half but didn't play long before getting pulled.

In the post-game press conference, Nellie said "it was a tale of two halves" with Bradley. He said Bradley was excellent in the first half, but in the second half he was "so bad I couldn't play him," or something like that. I wonder what he did that was so terrible. He did miss a couple jumpers, but God knows that missing jumpers isn't enough to get you benched by Nellie. I wonder what it is that Nellie gets so mad at Bradley about?

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: chumdawg
I would like to see Bradley more in the 4th. In fact, I was quite pleased (and quite surprised) when he got subbed in at Portland in the 4th. Say what you want about Shawn, I think it's readily apparent that we give a lot more easy baskets with him out of the game. If we're sitting on a ten-point lead, I'd love to see him in there.

This reminds me of something I meant to ask you guys about at the time, but never did. Remember the game last week when Bradley started and was hot in the 1st? I think it was against Philly. I think he scored ten points in the quarter, or something like that. Well, then he started the second half but didn't play long before getting pulled.

In the post-game press conference, Nellie said "it was a tale of two halves" with Bradley. He said Bradley was excellent in the first half, but in the second half he was "so bad I couldn't play him," or something like that. I wonder what he did that was so terrible. He did miss a couple jumpers, but God knows that missing jumpers isn't enough to get you benched by Nellie. I wonder what it is that Nellie gets so mad at Bradley about?

Chumdawg... My buddy and I had the same questions and could not understand it at all. I posed this question to Mike Fisher. He said that he would ask nellie about it.

Did shawn get pulled just because he missed some shots, was there something else that we as fans didn't see.

I thought his comments were insulting actually.

[dirno2000]

Originally posted by: Murphy3
I actually have no problem with Bradley taking an open jumper at virtually any point in the game. I'd rather him take an open jumper with a minute left on the clock in the 4th than AW.

What about Jamison or Howard, because that's really the choice.

I have no problem with him taking the open set shot either, but when he's within 3 feet of the basket he needs to score or get to the line and a fatigued Bradley doesn't do this often enough.

[Murphy3]

I'd rather Bradley take an open look than Howard.

It's not just a choice about who you'd rather have taking the open jumper. You have to factor in what he brings defensively.

As for Bradley not finishing around the bucket..well, I think people's opinions are skewed a bit by him having a tough game or two recently finishing around the bucket. Bradley is a high percentage shooter. He doesn't always finish, but he does an adequate job to go along with what he brings defensively.

[dude1394]

So murphy who are you sitting. Walker or jamison. Quit skirting the real question.

[MightyToine]

Originally posted by: dude1394
So murphy who are you sitting. Walker or jamison. Quit skirting the real question.

Speaking of "skirts", The Rockettes won today so expect the Drag-Queen of "skirts" stevie_franchise3 to make an appearance..... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif[/img]

[grndmstr_c]

Nope. Houston lost.

[MikeB]

I am not so much in favor of Bradley finishing the 4th unless its an offense/defense type substitution...but I am all in favor of Bradley STARTING the 4th. It looks like Nellie has decided that Dirk gets his last rest at the start of the 4th Q...so he winds up having Walker, Jamison, Finley on the floor as the front line which is brutal. We usually lose our leads in the first 4 minutes of the 4th. Having Bradley in the game at that time could help deter the opposition from going to the hoop and also allow the perimeter defenders to be more agressive on the outside at the 3 point line knowing Shawn is behind them. If Nellie would give Shawn 4-6 minutes in the beginning of the 4th Q then our propensity for giving away leads could become a thing of the past.

[jacktruth]

Originally posted by: MikeB
I am not so much in favor of Bradley finishing the 4th unless its an offense/defense type substitution...but I am all in favor of Bradley STARTING the 4th. It looks like Nellie has decided that Dirk gets his last rest at the start of the 4th Q...so he winds up having Walker, Jamison, Finley on the floor as the front line which is brutal. We usually lose our leads in the first 4 minutes of the 4th. Having Bradley in the game at that time could help deter the opposition from going to the hoop and also allow the perimeter defenders to be more agressive on the outside at the 3 point line knowing Shawn is behind them. If Nellie would give Shawn 4-6 minutes in the beginning of the 4th Q then our propensity for giving away leads could become a thing of the past.

I agree here. Last year, the Mavs won or lost in the third quarter, this year, it has slipped into the start of the fourth for a lot of games. I wouldn't want Bradley in at the end of close games because He loses half of the rebounds that he puts his hands on. The last thing you need at the end of the game is dropping a defensive rebound, then fouling on the shot block attempt. The refs will never give Shawn respect in that situation.

[LRB]

I would like to see Shawn in to close the game. We always need stops whether we are behind or ahead. Shawn gives us the very best chance to get those stops. While he's not perfect, he is the best defensive prescense on this team. Shawn may not always finish around the basket, but I've see everyone else on the team blow open bunnies around the basket as well. Shawn is still a very high percentage shooter, and is one of the best FT shooters on the team. I think that Shawn should get a good rest before coming in to close out the 4th, but Nellie should be able to swing that.

[Murphy3]

Dude, I don't think it would necessarily be Walker every time or Jamison every time. And, I'm not saying that Bradley should be in the game for the entire 4th quarter or even the majority. However, I would like to see him used whenever the Mavs are struggling defensively late in games.

[Male30Dan]

Murphy,

I have mixed feelings on this... I think Bradley is without a doubt the most UNDERRATED player on our team... Often fans, myself included, will beg that we bring in a center that can play defense and block some shots while we have someone that can do just that... I think I ride the fence quite a bit with him, as he is truly so inconsistent... People continously remember the bad without remembering the good... We as fans remember the many times he will foul a man so soft that he can EASILY get the layup/dunk... We as fans remember the countless times he gets the ball and takes 13 steps, falls down, loses the ball/gets called for traveling... We as fans remember the large number of times Bradley will be tossed the ball and, while his arms are raised and the ball is truly only inches from entering the basket, he will NOT jump but rather hop only to get his shot blocked by a SF that DOES jump...

These type of things stick with you, and in all honesty, sway the majority to rather the Jamisons and Walkers of our team to play rather than him. I think I am somewhere in the middle of remembering the bad and knowing his abilities... I know he is TERRIBLE at some things, while being GREAT at others... But to get off of the fence and actually answer your question, I would say yes AND no... He needs more playing time when we are being scored upon inside... But when teams are coming back due to some marksman sniping us from outside, we need the Howards and Bests of our team to get more PT... Sure a great Center like Bradley could make the zone better enforced allowing the other members to guard the outside shooters better, but I would still say that when we are losing due to our opponents shooting lights out, LEAVE THE ZONE and put the best man to man defenders on the other guys...

So again, yes AND no...

[sike]

I'd rather have Bradley take an open jumper if it will keep him from trying to dribble..which of course would just lead to him falling on the floor.....my Brasilian wife(who is just coming around on the great game of hoop even comments that he should not ever put the ball on the floor...I have married a genius!). Despite my disliking his dribbling skills, he has a good to above average set shot. I would rather have Bradley shoot his set 12-14 foot jumper than Jamison, Walker, Howard etc...

and would not mind him playing in the final minutes if he was not winded and the game called for it!

[chumdawg]

Here's a bit from Gerry Fraley of the DMN:

Bradley in lineup gives Mavs best chance

Mavericks center Shawn Bradley has been as healthy as he has been all season in the last four games. The Mavericks have won their last four games.
That is not a coincidence.

Bradley has limitations, but he can help a team that needs all the defensive assistance it can get. With the shot-changing Bradley as the anchor, the Mavericks can be something other than a human sieve when they play zone defense.

In the last four games, the Mavericks have a 20-point advantage when Bradley plays. They have fared better with only one other player. They have been 27 points better with Dirk Nowitzki in the game during the winning streak.

The Mavericks need Bradley to stay in the rotation.

[LRB]

Being second to Dirk is no shame.

[grndmstr_c]

Heck, when you consider that Dirk has probably played 3 to 4 times as many minutes as Bradley during that stretch, it looks like Bradley is second to nobody.

Keep playin' him Nellie.

[NewMexiMav]

I think it is no coincidence that one of the reasons for our recent road success has been the commitment of Nellie (in the Denver game) and Donnie (in the Portland game) to give the Bradley/Fortson center combo 30 minutes of playing time. If these two are healthy, this needs to be done consistently. Bradley boosts our defense and Fortson is a rebounding monster.

Also, not coincidentally, defense and strong defensive rebounding are two things a team desperately needs in the 4th Qtr when trying to hold on to a lead. When the opposition is trying to mount a comeback in the 4th, possessions are critical. You don't want to give any easy looks close to the hoop and you sure don't want to give any second chance attempts. So, in that regard, Bradley or Fortson in the 4th would be nice.

I understand (and the point has been made above) why Nellie plays the Big 5 at crunch time in close games--these are the studs who are paid the big money to finish. And based on talent level, they all deserve to play at crunch time. The problem with that is our defense suffers, our rebounding suffers, and I really don't think we get the benefit of having 5 offensive options in the 4th because we are usually miliking the clock and our offensive seems to stagnate--lots of clearouts for Dirk or Fin or Walker. On plays like these, our other 4 offensive studs may as well be cardboard cutouts.

When you come to this conclusion, it makes you wonder if a trade is ultimately the only solution. Lose some of your offensive weapons so you CAN have some defense and rebounding on the court at the end of games.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]

[madape]

I didn't catch the game, but it looks like Bradley got some late 4th quarter PT. The post game show replayed a steal he initiated that lead to a fast break bucket. Any comments on how he performed?

[SeriousSummer]

Not well, and I like Bradley. He had a foul about every two minutes. He also had at least two silly fouls. Basically he took himself out of the game.

The steal was nice and came at a crucial time of the game, however.

[chumdawg]

In the post-game Nellie talked about why he pulled Bradley early in the second half (don't remember exactly when). he said that when he has a dead team, he expects the guy off the bench to bring a lot of energy and be a "spark plug." He said Bradley, instead of doing that, "looked like he had played 30 minutes." So he said he "didn't wait long" to pull him.

But he also said that he "doesn't hold grudges," which is why he put him back with 1:something left in the game, up ten. And he praised him for deflecting the pass that led to the steal and the Walker layup. He said that Bradley leads the team in deflections per minute, which is a stat they track.

And finally, he said that Fortson was simply more effective when he was in the game. He had nice words for the Potato.

But to better answer your question, madape, I think that Bradley's only PT in the 4th (certainly his only PT in the late 4th) was that one possession where he got the deflection. He went back to the bench right after that.

[NewMexiMav]

I think Nellie played him prior to that in the 4th but quickly sat him down when he picked up a silly foul.

I agree that it wasn't a good performance from Bradley overall, but I was still glad to see both he and Fort get some time in the 4th.

[Murphy3]

Bradley picked up three quick rebounds in the 4th.
He had a not so good play and some good plays.

As for Nellie not holding grudges, that's a load of B.S.

[sike]

As for Nellie not holding grudges, that's a load of B.S.

agreed, Nellie has more than just size in common elephants...nellie also never forgets....

[LRB]

Murphy and Sike I totally agree with you about Nellie holding grudges. Why else does he slam Shawn every chance he gets in the media even after Bradley has had a string of very good performances?

What Shawn needs is PT. He needs to get used to his new teamates and get back in top game shape. The only way to really do thes is to get PT, because you need time in game conditions that can't be replicated totally in practice. Shawn won't be as good now as he will after 10 or so games of regular and long 20+ minutes of PT. However playing Shawn makes the Mavs a much better team. That stats scream this. Yes he has his negatives, but his positives far out weigh the negatives.

Guess it must be the grudge keeping Shawn out of the game. [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

[Day1MavsFan]

I just wanted to say that I was thinking the same thing when I was at the Philly game. Shawn played decent minutes each of the first 3 quarters. Mavs had a double-digit lead going into the 4th. We all know what happened, and at the time I was thinking "where is Shawn?". I fully believe that if Shawn had played 5 minutes of the quarter that the game would have been won in regulation.
So, yes, he absolutely should be playing in the fourth. If he seems worn down, then just spread his minutes out better.

[Evilmav2]

I fully believe that if Shawn had played 5 minutes of the quarter that the game would have been won in regulation.

Hear, Hear Day1MavsFan! I loudly argued the same thing as we went into OT and OT again in that Philly game...