Darren Collison discussion thread

[asiasportwriter]

Collison is a nice player but I think he's too small to be effective each night against bigger players.

[Skywalker]

as a small, quick player, the one thing you absolutely gotta be able to do on defense is stay in front of your man and bug the sh*t out of him. if you cant do that then youre pretty much useless on that end of the court and unfortunately thats what I've been seeing from Collison lately.

[mavsfan1000]

How about play 3 point guards. That way Collison has no excuse for not putting more effort on the defensive end. Less minutes=less fatigue.

[SMC0007]

Maybe Collison is in self-preservation mode lately. Early in the season he was pressuring on defense a lot, full and 3/4 court press. Hassling the opposing PG. That has dropped off way too much imo. He needs to get back to playing raw aggressive ball on both ends. Probe on offense and trust his instincts, rely on his speed and quickness. The things he may be doing to stay on the court longer by not going all out hustling on both ends, may just be what ends up taking him off the court. If he went all out (as Dojo has been lately), then Dojo and Roddy did that everytime they got on the floor, we would be much better off.

[mavsfan1000]

Yeah players that have more skill can get away with being in self-preservation mode. Collison can't be that way though. Thus why he needs to be in full effort every minutes he is on the floor. Thus, why I like the idea of 3 players hustling for 48 minutes to make up for a point guard that has more skill.

[sefant77]

He is playing right now basically like the early Barea.

Stupid TO, killing the clock and bricking then badly, not delivering the ball into the sweet spots (how often you see Kaman getting hot and then not touching the ball for minutes) etc...

[sike]

So as long as he attacks, it seems that DC is a solid offensive pg. But the dude gets lit up night after night on the defensive end.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by sike

So as long as he attacks, it seems that DC is a solid offensive pg. But the dude gets lit up night after night on the defensive end.

He's a more talented, but less tenacious, JJB.

[b_o_r]

Originally Posted by Underdog

He's a more talented, but less tenacious, JJB.

I see the same player but JJB might be the better defender.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by b_o_r

I see the same player but JJB might be the better defender.

Yeah, being scrappy definitely helps on the defensive end... Collison certainly does shy away from contact - Barea had no problem sacrificing his body.

It might not hurt DC to put on a little more muscle at his size.

[b_o_r]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Yeah, being scrappy definitely helps on the defensive end... Collison certainly does shy away from contact - Barea had no problem sacrificing his body.

It might not hurt DC to put on a little more muscle at his size.

His 6ft 170 which is the right size for his frame. He just has no technique and effort with regards to playing defense.

[chumdawg]

If we are having a draft, how many teams take JJB before they take Collison?

[Fragism]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

If we are having a draft, how many teams take JJB before they take Collison?

None?

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Fragism

None?

Wrong answer!

[Bayliss]

Here is one my major gripes about Collison, and it might be by design I don't know but it kills the Mavs in the half court:

Collison gets the ball up top and dribbles in one spot for about 3 seconds. A teammate (usually Kaman or Brand) comes and sets the screen. Collison does one of two things, which both do not go anywhere. Option on, he goes with the pick but he does not atack to get inside. Once he curls around the pick he dribbles a couple of times sideways, then Kaman/Brand release and Collison backs up. Essentially wasting the pick. The other option is he abandons the pick and goes the opposite way, dribbles backward and then starts dancing with the ball for another 2 or 3 seconds.

When he uses the pick he has to go. And he should be comfortable with that mentality because in the open court he does it. Then when he goes, he can decide to try and take it all the way or pass to a release valve in the corner or on the wing. But his hesitation when he has the ball up top is killing the Mavs. And under 5 minutes, that is who gets the ball a llot to "initiate" the offense. And not a surprise that the offense becomes terrible.

[Simple_Like_That]

For me; is safe to say that DC is not that good... I think he will be a great option for your bench, but not in the starting lineup. I also believe he is not a good fit with OJ... OJ need someone with size to play with him... to they switch positions in case he is facing the Paul George's or Joe Johnson's of the league.

I was reading some posts on nbadraft.net and someone posted about Tyreke Evans... I think this guy would be the perfect fit alongside OJ. Tyreke can penetrate even better than Collison and will open the floor for Dirk and OJ... also he still young and like OJ was never used well by his team... the guy was a machine in his rookie year (around 20-5-5 / another team smilar to OJ) and I think he can get back to that... This also solve the Cuban problem because Tyreke/OJ will be the future of the franchise when D41 retires... Think about it?! ... make sense.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUqlZq7Q4sM

Tyreke
OJ
Marion
Dirk
Kaman

Bench

Collison
Jones
Carter
Brand
Wright

The rookies.


A contender for sure... my only doubt is if there is any real chance a package Dojo + Beaubois + multiple picks can get him.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by Simple_Like_That

For me; is safe to say that DC is not that good... I think he will be a great option for your bench, but not in the starting lineup. I also believe he is not a good fit with OJ... OJ need someone with size to play with him... to they switch positions in case he is facing the Paul George's or Joe Johnson's of the league.

I was reading some posts on nbadraft.net and someone posted about Tyreke Evans... I think this guy would be the perfect fit alongside OJ. Tyreke can penetrate even better than Collison and will open the floor for Dirk and OJ... also he still young and like OJ was never used well by his team... the guy was a machine in his rookie year (around 20-5-5 / another team smilar to OJ) and I think he can get back to that... This also solve the Cuban problem because Tyreke/OJ will be the future of the franchise when D41 retires... Think about it?! ... make sense.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUqlZq7Q4sM

Tyreke
OJ
Marion
Dirk
Kaman

Bench

Collison
Jones
Carter
Brand
Wright

The rookies.


A contender for sure... my only doubt is if there is any real chance a package Dojo + Beaubois + multiple picks can get him.

Tyreke is a terrible basketball player. He's a net negative, seriously. Most team is better without him, than with him. I would argue any team, that doesn't wanna use him as a 6th man. He needs the ball in his hand all the time to be even remotely effective, and that's never good if you are not Steve Nash, or Chris Paul. A team built around Evans and Mayo would have a hard time making the playoffs as a 7th, or 8th seed, once Dirk retires.

[dude1394]

Slow decision making if you are not posting up is a killer for a team. Pass, drive or shoot it, get on with it and good things will happen. Sit there dribbling the ball thinking about it makes the entire team slow up.

[EricaLubarsky]

It's time to bench Collison. The numbers say we are better without him on the floor and watching game after game of him absolutely killing team defense and intensity, it's become very clear and he ain't going to magically get better when Dirk gets back. The guy just doesn't make good decisions and can't pass into the post, across the floor or even downcourt.

That leaves us Roddy/DoJo/Cunningham, which is admittedly shaky, but this team is better without him.

[dirt_dobber]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

It's time to bench Collison. The numbers say we are better without him on the floor and watching game after game of him absolutely killing team defense and intensity, it's become very clear and he ain't going to magically get better when Dirk gets back. The guy just doesn't make good decisions and can't pass into the post, across the floor or even downcourt.

That leaves us Roddy/DoJo/Cunningham, which is admittedly shaky, but this team is better without him.

agreed - and I had hoped that he would be a big addition to the team.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

It's time to bench Collison. The numbers say we are better without him on the floor and watching game after game of him absolutely killing team defense and intensity, it's become very clear and he ain't going to magically get better when Dirk gets back. The guy just doesn't make good decisions and can't pass into the post, across the floor or even downcourt.

That leaves us Roddy/DoJo/Cunningham, which is admittedly shaky, but this team is better without him.

The numbers also say that Dominic Jones, Dhantay Jones AND Roddy all have a more positive impact on the floor than Mayo.

The numbers also say that Shawn Marion is one of the biggest negative impact players on the team.

We're dealing with a tiny sample size right now, and a team fluctuating without its anchor, and a coach trying to make do while integrating a host of new players.

It is so, so far away it being time to bench Collison that it's not even funny.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by jthig32

The numbers also say that Dominic Jones, Dhantay Jones AND Roddy all have a more positive impact on the floor than Mayo.

The numbers also say that Shawn Marion is one of the biggest negative impact players on the team.

We're dealing with a tiny sample size right now, and a team fluctuating without its anchor, and a coach trying to make do while integrating a host of new players.

It is so, so far away it being time to bench Collison that it's not even funny.

I'll give you that DoJo has only played 108 min, Roddy 126, and Dahntay 151, but guys that have played almost 500 minutes-- that is hardly a "tiny sample size". So, no, you can't say that Roddy is better than a player who does have an adequate sample size, but you can say that a guy that has played that many minutes and who actually makes the team worse is a big question mark. Who would be better? I'm not sure we have anyone on the roster-- even if I thought we did, the sample sizes of all our alternates is so tiny.

I just think that we've seen Collison up close and he's little more than an early JJB and I wouldn't want JJB starting next to Dirk either. Early on JJB had no idea how to play in any team offense and at the end all he knew how to do was to look for his own shot, but was a decent spark plug off the bench as long as he was the offense. When he played next to Dirk, it was painful how bad he was at getting it to Dirk in a place that Dirk could use it.

I hope I'm wrong, but I see Collison being a guy like Antoine Walker that is as much as negative as a positive. He can win games some nights on his own, but more often his mistakes and inability to play point are going to kill us.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

I'll give you that DoJo has only played 108 min, Roddy 126, and Dahntay 151, but guys that have played almost 500 minutes-- that is hardly a "tiny sample size". So, no, you can't say that Roddy is better than a player who does have an adequate sample size, but you can say that a guy that has played that many minutes and who actually makes the team worse is a big question mark. Who would be better? I'm not sure we have anyone on the roster-- even if I thought we did, the sample sizes of all our alternates is so tiny.

I just think that we've seen Collison up close and he's little more than an early JJB and I wouldn't want JJB starting next to Dirk either. Early on JJB had no idea how to play in any team offense and at the end all he knew how to do was to look for his own shot, but was a decent spark plug off the bench as long as he was the offense. When he played next to Dirk, it was painful how bad he was at getting it to Dirk in a place that Dirk could use it.

I hope I'm wrong, but I see Collison being a guy like Antoine Walker that is as much as negative as a positive. He can win games some nights on his own, but more often his mistakes and inability to play point are going to kill us.

You do realize that collison is already significantly better than any version of jjb right? That's just hyperbole, I hope

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Collison's ability to get Dirk the ball is the be-all and end-all of this discussion. If he can't do that, then he won't be back next season.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

You do realize that collison is already significantly better than any version of jjb right? That's just hyperbole, I hope

I was not being hyperbolic at all and ANY version? I'd beg to differ.

Collison 12-13 vs. JJB 10-11

45.6/49.0% eFG%
33.3/38.9% clutch eFG%
43.6%/43.9% FG
33.3%/34.9% 3pt FG
88.2%/84.7% FT
8.6/9.2 AP48
3.5/3.9 TOp48
2.6/2.3 A/TO ratio
3.2/4.6 Rp48
7.0/9.7 pass rating
6.6/9.9 rebound rating
16.8/20.0 "hands" rating (a measure of bad passes, TOs, etc)
14.4/15.1 PER rating (player overall rating)
-1.6/3.9 net PER (player production minus opposing player's PER)

Collison only leads in three (3) statistical categories important for PGs. Three. Just look at all the stats that go JJB's way. I believe that the simple stats, when corrected for minutes played and advanced stats bear my point out quite well. I think you either undervalue JJB or overvalue Collison, because comparing JJB and Collison seems to be a solid move. Across multiple years, JJB and Collison are mirror images of each other with JJB taking the lead in many key categories.

[jleefilled]

I can do without Collison being the second coming, but at the least, I wanted him to be as advertised in the sense of being an offensive threat that the opposition has to deal with. Wasn't that all the talk prior to the season that Collison was going to be a guy that will take it into the paint and score unlike Kidd? This is what is frustrating me the most this season. Derek Harper -- by his play -- conditioned me to believe that a point guard should be able to get a good shot up whenever he wants. Jason kidd obviously didn't fit that mold but all the preseason talk had me feeling like Collison might be that guy. Right now, his inconsistency in being a scorer for the mavs is disheartening. Yes, I would like him to be able to get assists and play decent defense as well, but I think he -- and the pg position in general --.need to be a consistent threat offensively for this season to be any kind of success.

[turin]

Unfortunately, my wife and I bought tickets to the Mav/Laker game Saturday. It was our first live game since game 6 of the 2011 NBA finals in Miami. Wow, what a letdown. LOL I haven't been able to watch many games this year, but the 2 biggest things that stuck with me:

1. Collison is absolutely awful. He dribbles too much and can't finish.
2. Who is the guy with the Brand jersey on? He's so invisible that it looks like 4 on 5 at times. You'd think a guy with his height could at least get an "accidental" rebound.

This game was definitely a bummer. Spacing was not good, ball movement stagnant. I can't remember the last time I saw so many passes to a teammate who was only 2 feet away!

I'm definitely looking forward to Dirk coming back. I think that'll be a huge lift. Point guard is a huge problem right now though. Sadly, I'm done with Roddy. I'd just as soon see him out of here. Jones brings some good things to the table, but guards who can't hit 50% at the free throw line don't stick in the NBA for long, and they certainly don't start.

I'm looking forward to January though. Dirk should be back and rounding into shape, and hopefully some other guys will pick up their game and the team will gel.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

^The sad part is that Roddy was the best pg on the floor Saturday night. Six assists and one turnover is actually a decent night for him these days.

[mavsfan1000]

I'm guessing our point guards will play better once Dirk returns. Until then, they will struggle.

[Five-ofan]

I really feel like people must have had unrealistic expectations for collison. Yes he's inconsistent but he's avg 13/6 and that's without a go to scored which always makes life easier for a pg. The only thing iv been disappointed with is his d

[Bayliss]

What I've been disappointed with is his hesitancy off of pick and rolls.

[EricaLubarsky]

I'd really hope that our starting PG would have a positive effect on a team that is only .500. I don't think that is a terribly high expectation. Even a net 0 for a .500 team would be OK with me.

My biggest problems are
1) passing ability. The guy just doesn't know how to pass into the post. If you can't get it into Dirk, you shouldn't be on the team. The floor will be way more open with Dirk, but if he can't consistently make an even avererage pass, we have a problem. JJB couldn't do it well for a few years. Collison can't now and Collison isn't as sneaky and nowhere near as aggressive as JJB and all JJB could be was a changeup player that was one-man offense.

2) Defense. This one isnt as important, but neither Dirk nor Kaman are the weak side defenders we'd need to cover up problems with the guards. If anything we need the guards to be strong so there is less pressure on Dirk and Kaman. The only real shot blockers we have are Wright (doghouse) and James (rook)

[mavsfan1000]

All the point guards will look decent once Dirk comes back. Dirk did the same for Terry and Harris. Neither are pure point guards but found it easier running the offense with Dirk. Though it wasn't perfect, it still was good enough to get the Mavs to the finals that one year.

[markus1234]

JJB was definitely much tougher. He took charges and attacked the basket...vs Bynum and co.

Collison is more like Roddy. Goes to the basket only in fast break situations. Too scared in half court.

[Fragism]

Barea played an entire season with Dirk. Collison has played 14 games with an entirely new roster without Dirk. Barea was also playing against second units while Collison is starting.

It's absurd to compare the two.

[EricaLubarsky]

It's absurd to compare? Really? I don't think it's "ridiculously unreasonable" particularly because JJB played 57% of his minutes without Dirk on the floor as a reserve. Of course, all the stats should be taken with a grain of salt because of the nature of the game, but to say that the stats don't matter AT ALL and that it is "absurd" just seems like hyperbole and a terrible misuse of the word.

Stats matter. They don't tell the whole story, obviously, and they should be tempered by the circumstances from which they are created. I'm not claiming that JJB is SUPERIOR to Collison, but I think giving a generous helping of numbers that actually paints JJB in a rosier light than Collison is evidence enough for 5-0Fan that the two can in fact be compared.

And for 5-0
Collison 52.8% TS%
JJB 53.5% TS%

JJB won the battle of TS%, too.

[Fragism]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

It's absurd to compare? Really? I don't think it's "ridiculously unreasonable" particularly because JJB played 57% of his minutes without Dirk on the floor as a reserve. Of course, all the stats should be taken with a grain of salt because of the nature of the game, but to say that the stats don't matter AT ALL and that it is "absurd" just seems like hyperbole and a terrible misuse of the word.

Stats matter. They don't tell the whole story, obviously, and they should be tempered by the circumstances from which they are created. I'm not claiming that JJB is SUPERIOR to Collison, but I think giving a generous helping of numbers that actually paints JJB in a rosier light than Collison is evidence enough for 5-0Fan that the two can in fact be compared.

And for 5-0
Collison 52.8% TS%
JJB 53.5% TS%

JJB won the battle of TS%, too.

Like I said, you're comparing the stats of a player who played off the bench for a champion team with one of the greatest power forwards of all time to a guy that has played 14 games with a fringe playoff team.

I never said that stats don't matter, but this isn't exactly fair.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by Fragism

Like I said, you're comparing the stats of a player who played off the bench for a champion team with one of the greatest power forwards of all time to a guy that has played 14 games with a fringe playoff team.

I never said that stats don't matter, but this isn't exactly fair.

You said it was quote, "absurd" to compare the two of them as a response to the stats that I provided. I think that pretty much implies that you think that the stats don't matter or that somehow the fact that JJB played some of his minutes WITH Dirk or that that team was better somehow nullifies ALL the stats. It doesn't, but it puts even more stress on the fact that stats should be taken with a grain of salt and an understanding of the circumstances. There has yet to be a good measure of how players impact the game for others, so we can't just "correct for Dirk", but we can say that JJB's numbers would probably have been slightly worse without Dirk.

Still, the point isn't that Collison is worse than JJB, but that I have legitimate concerns about elements of JJB's game and that they both share those deficiencies in almost equal parts. Defense and passing were issues with both and the fact that their stats are about equal on the those two particular categories, I believe gives me the right to compare the two

[Fragism]

Barea's first 14 games of the 10-11 season:

FG%: .343
3P%: .143
TS%: .416
eFG%: .366
TOV%: 13.3
AST%: 24.8

Collison's first 14 games of the 12-13 season:

FG%: .436
3P%: .333
TS%: .528
eFG%: .456
TOV%: 16.5
AST%: 30.6

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by Fragism

Barea's first 14 games of the 10-11 season:

FG%: .343
3P%: .143
TS%: .416
eFG%: .366
TOV%: 13.3
AST%: 24.8

Collison's first 14 games of the 12-13 season:

FG%: .436
3P%: .333
TS%: .528
eFG%: .456
TOV%: 16.5
AST%: 30.6

This isn't exactly fair either, Barea had a super slow start that season, and Collison actually started this season great, and produced nice numbers, on nice efficiency in the first 5 games. Anyway, Collison is a better player, unfortunately, that still don't mean much. They are both terrible (and net negative) as starting point guards for a playoff team.