"Free-Throw-Line Iso" - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

BGMaverick9 · 03-11-2009, 12:28 PM

I know making new threads can be pointless, but I think this is something that can be kept track off from here on out because it has been addressed. Also, everyone else can add input to it.

This was nice to hear:

it's from Fish's latest article on db.com
http://www.dallasbasketball.com/fullColumn.php?id=1411

Quote:

DONUT 2: The Suns’ offseason nightmares will be haunted by Dirk Nowitzki, who made an insane number of off-balance, fully-challenged, how’d-he-do-that? jumpers.

“Dirk played great,’’ said friend-turned-for Steve Nash. “He was unstoppable.’’

The UberMan (joining Jason Terry in taking full responsibility for the Dallas scoring load) started slow … but kept firing. By halftime he had 11. In the third quarter he scored 15 and took Matt Barnes to school. In the fourth quarter, when the Mavs were in the half-court, they introduced a semi-new offensive set that dumps the ball to Dirk at the free-throw line, clears out for him, and gives him a couple of new passing options. …

Thing is, he never much passed out of the “free-throw-line iso.’’ He just kept making insane off-balance shots, and finished with 34 points (to go with his 13 rebounds, four assists and two blocks) and the Mavs have a new bread-and-butter set.

“We actually officially put in a name for that play yesterday and really cleaned up some the stuff involved with the spacing,’’ coach Rick Carlisle said. “It was timely (to have done so) because it was one area that he was able to manufacture some shots.’’

Dallas decided against putting Dirk lower in the blocks because that would draw double-teams. His coaching staff believed that Phoenix would effectively switch to control Dirk on the pick-and-roll, so the Mavs didn’t rely on that. Instead, they went with a new play. … really, a refined play. … and went to it repeatedly down the stretch.

“Dirk was phenomenal,’’ Carlisle said.

If they work on spacing, the next thing needs to be dive cuts/flashing to the lane. If they double Dirk or they decide to play straight up, you can still find an easier shot by flashing into the lane. Opponents who aren't directly involved in guarding Dirk can end up just standing and watching. The problem with that is the other 4 Mavs players on the floor end up just sitting and watching too. That's a big problem for Dallas, but that's advantageous if you take notice of that the other 3-4 defenders are sleeping. You just need to get in Dirk's line of sight and run into the lane and Dirk is smart enough to get you the ball.

It's smart to take him off the block right now because it's easy to contain him that way with a double and it just cuts off part of his options for moving. At the top of the key or the FT line, he has multiple ways he can go.

DirkFTW · 03-11-2009, 01:16 PM

INTRIGUING! I like BG's suggestion to add cutters.

And isn't Carlisle pretty big on offensive sets involving backdoor cuts and motion from the other players?

AxdemxO · 03-11-2009, 02:29 PM

Dirk can hit those all day because they are basically free throws and he has shot so many that even when it seems impossible to make and when hes off balance, he still makes them because he knows exactly where the rim is at.

Some cutting would be good, but last nite wasnt bad either. Maybe some better D

tcat075 · 03-11-2009, 04:33 PM

Well, Dirk's not always going to hit that fade-away at the free throw line...its a pretty crazy shot as it is, but expecting to run this play every night and expecting Dirk to hit that shot every night is a bit much. I knows its his signature shot, but some nights it just doesn't fall...

MaVs 41 BaLler · 03-11-2009, 04:45 PM

When it doesn't fall you continue to shoot if your Dirk.

tcat075 · 03-11-2009, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaVs 41 BaLler

When it doesn't fall you continue to shoot if your Dirk.

I'm just saying that play won't always be as effective as it was today. You're not going to have an uncovered Kidd to shoot the three if there isn't any need to double Dirk...

AxdemxO · 03-11-2009, 05:42 PM

I think it will be because Dirk shoots 90% from FT, thus those shots are almost a FT. So I give him (even when hes being covered well) about 70%. I dont mind him doing that every time and shooting, if they double get the ball to Kidd and Jet and kill them with 3's. I think this can work well against every team.

tcat075 · 03-11-2009, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

I think it will be because Dirk shoots 90% from FT, thus those shots are almost a FT. So I give him (even when hes being covered well) about 70%. I dont mind him doing that every time and shooting, if they double get the ball to Kidd and Jet and kill them with 3's. I think this can work well against every team.

I don't call a twisting, spinning, fading away over the top of someone shot that same as a free throw. Not really even all that close.

Again, as I said, if that shot isn't falling (and some nights it won't) there isn't a need to double and thus, Jet and Kidd won't be open.

SeriousSummer · 03-11-2009, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

I don't call a twisting, spinning, fading away over the top of someone shot that same as a free throw. Not really even all that close.

Again, as I said, if that shot isn't falling (and some nights it won't) there isn't a need to double and thus, Jet and Kidd won't be open.

As long as the other team doesn't double team Dirk and covers him with a shorter player, Dirk can hit a high enough percentage of those shots to make the offense effective--one of the few players in the NBA, maybe the only player in the NBA, who is both. tall enough and shoots well enough to do so. I think if Dirk keeps shooting that it will be a very rare night where the shot doesn't start falling sooner or later.

If Dirk is double-teamed or covered by a larger player (say 6'9" or taller), then you need a different strategy

tcat075 · 03-11-2009, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeriousSummer

As long as the other team doesn't double team Dirk and covers him with a shorter player, Dirk can hit a high enough percentage of those shots to make the offense effective--one of the few players in the NBA, maybe the only player in the NBA, who is both. tall enough and shoots well enough to do so. I think if Dirk keeps shooting that it will be a very rare night where the shot doesn't start falling sooner or later.

If Dirk is double-teamed or covered by a larger player (say 6'9" or taller), then you need a different strategy

If he is doubled, then he kicks for an open 3 pointer...

rabbitproof · 03-11-2009, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

If he is doubled, then he kicks for an open 3 pointer...

Or drives.

SeriousSummer · 03-11-2009, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Or drives.

I don't think Dirk can drive against a double team, but he may be able to beat taller defenders off the dribble.

A double team should mean a pass to the open man, but it depends how, where and when the double team comes from. We will need to see more games with this set up to know that.

TheMaverick · 03-11-2009, 09:11 PM

Dirk's motions are not as fluid as they used to be, his driving game has diminished. However, his court vision and his ability to execute the skip pass has drastically increased. This is a good play against any team except for the team Stephen Jackson plays for.

BGMaverick9 · 03-11-2009, 11:35 PM

Going off of tonight, it looked like he was confused at first what to do when he got the obvious bite on the fake but didn't get the contact. He wasn't sure if he should still push the shot up or pass. It led to 1 or 2 missed shots.

It got readjusted in the 2nd quarter on and he just kept swinging around and he figured out he just needed to keep going and the space would eventually get there for a free shot.

If only he had an amazing first step...he'd be an Uber-Monster! He's just gotta go with what he's got, but that first step would do wonders for "the move."

I'm not counting on him to make the shot every single time, that's totally unrealistic. I'm counting on him to make the effort/sell it to where he can free up space, get to the line or find an open man..I'm pretty sure he can do that 9 times out of 10.

Murphy3 · 03-11-2009, 11:50 PM

What the shot needs to be is an opportunity for Dirk to find a spot to match up one on one more often than not. If the double comes, he's in a position to where he can see anything going towards the bucket.

I'm sure many of you remember that it was the same type of iso that killed the Spurs a couple of years back when the Mavs made it to the NBA Finals.

As for Dirk's driving ability.. it has never been fluid. I don't think he's really lost much when it comes to taking it to the rim. He's just decided that, more often than not, him shooting a jumper is a more efficient option. As long as he's efficient, I don't have alot of problems with that decision. He just needs to look to drive when the opportunity is there. Sometimes he needs to recognize the opening a little quicker. I suppose he gets used to taking difficult shots that are contested as closely as possible that he's a bit shocked when the opening presents itself.

BGMaverick9 · 03-11-2009, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

What the shot needs to be is an opportunity for Dirk to find a spot to match up one on one more often than not. If the double comes, he's in a position to where he can see anything going towards the bucket.

I'm sure many of you remember that it was the same type of iso that killed the Spurs a couple of years back when the Mavs made it to the NBA Finals.

As for Dirk's driving ability.. it has never been fluid. I don't think he's really lost much when it comes to taking it to the rim. He's just decided that, more often than not, him shooting a jumper is a more efficient option. As long as he's efficient, I don't have alot of problems with that decision. He just needs to look to drive when the opportunity is there. Sometimes he needs to recognize the opening a little quicker. I suppose he gets used to taking difficult shots that are contested as closely as possible that he's a bit shocked when the opening presents itself.

I'm not really sure how a defense will be able to avoid the positioning, they'll have to double him before he even gets the ball...Portland tried that tonight but not enough. Either that or just flat out force him out of the spot...I doubt that's happening either though.

I think he's just naturally going to be hesitant to drive from being at the FT line based on a few reasons:
-Facing a man who might be quicker
-Facing a man who might be too long/big to get around
-Probably has the mindset that he won't get the call

Dirkadirkastan · 03-11-2009, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

I suppose he gets used to taking difficult shots that are contested as closely as possible that he's a bit shocked when the opening presents itself.

He certainly does often look more awkward when there's no defender than when there is one. Maybe that's how teams should play him.

Murphy3 · 03-12-2009, 12:03 AM

BG, I think it's the whole not getting the call thing. Why drive if the officials are going to single you out as the guy that will be forced to absorb more conact than others when taking the ball to the rim?

Hell, just watch Dirk 15+ feet from the bucket and you'll shake your head at all the contact that he absorbs.. even without the ball.

And yeah, you'll probably see teams doubling him a more often even without the ball. You saw alot of that in the GS series..and then again last year in the playoffs.

SMC0007 · 03-12-2009, 12:04 AM

As far as tonights game I would have liked to see him roll to the bucket off the pick a few times instead of staying around the perimeter. Great results and the shots were definitely falling, wow.

Dirkadirkastan · 03-12-2009, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

BG, I think it's the whole not getting the call thing. Why drive if the officials are going to single you out as the guy that will be forced to absorb more conact than others when taking the ball to the rim?

Hell, just watch Dirk 15+ feet from the bucket and you'll shake your head at all the contact that he absorbs.. even without the ball.

And yeah, you'll probably see teams doubling him a more often even without the ball. You saw alot of that in the GS series..and then again last year in the playoffs.

Dirk was just absolutely brutalized in those last three or four minutes of tonight's game especially.

BGMaverick9 · 03-12-2009, 12:13 AM

I can't really fault him for that if that's the case..taking a beating, not getting the call and it could be deep down knowing that he can get pretty angry and take himself out of the game if he does that. I'm sure that's a bit of a stretch, but that's how I could see it, because that's what happens.

But if they double without the ball, Jet, Wright, Kidd, JJ...(eek) Josh HAVE to make them pay for it. They absolutely have to take advantage of the situation.

Flacolaco · 03-12-2009, 12:15 AM

After watching Roy play tonight, I was wondering...at what point can Dirk leave his feet from a stand still position, launch himself into someone who was playing good honest defense, and get a call?

When that happens, let me know. I'll shell out money for season tickets.

Dirkadirkastan · 03-12-2009, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

After watching Roy play tonight, I was wondering...at what point can Dirk leave his feet from a stand still position, launch himself into someone who was playing good honest defense, and get a call?

Now you can see why their record is much better at home.

kg_veteran · 03-12-2009, 09:53 AM

The free throw line isolation is impossible to defend one-on-one. Opponents try to push Dirk out as far as possible, and they try to deny him from catching the ball, but once he does, there's not a player in the league that can effectively guard it. Big men may have enough length to contest Dirk's shots, but they aren't quick enough and skilled enough to stay with Dirk either on the drive or when he utilizes all of his pump fakes. Smaller, quicker defenders can prevent the drive, but they can't bother the shot once Dirk maneuvers into the spot where he wants to shoot.

FWIW, the stuff about Dirk's supposed inability to drive is bogus. I think Murph is right. Dirk just figured out that he can be more efficient shooting from 15 feet most of the time. It requires less energy, and he doesn't have to absorb as much punishment.

buddha08 · 03-12-2009, 10:11 AM

The year the Mavs went to the Finals Dirk crushed folks on that play. I remember time and again him draining buckets from near the free throw line and thinking the play was nearly unstoppable. Very ofter he was fouled in the act of shooting and managed to make the shot leading to a 3 point play. (incidentally Terry also was draining mucho buckets at the time on pull-up jumpers just behind the free throw line as well). I have wondered why it sort of fell out of the repetoire for a while. After the finals collapse it seemed Avery tried to develop Dirk's game with other types of plays. Seemed to me that neither him nor Carlisle every went back to that bread-and-butter play. More often it seemed Bass was getting ISO plays called like that--but off to the side a bit--with it being overlooked as Dirk's best place on the floor.

Bayliss · 03-12-2009, 10:19 AM

KG is right that it is very hard to guard. Bird used to have some spots on the floor where it didn't matter if the defense was there or not... if he got the shot off at the spot, it was going in.... he just knew it. He would literally look for those spots on the floor.

Dirk is kind of getting there with those spots on the floor. Thefree throw line extended is Dirk's spot. I don't enjoy seeing him pumpfake so much, but one thing he does with his pumpfake (evidfenced by the shot over Aldridge in the 4th last night), is he pumps into the guy... then kind of leans back the other way and shoots.

Personally I think the pumpfake is a two fold mechanism: 1) he might get a foul if the defender commits 2) he is getting himself space for a "quality" shot. Now we don't think it is quuality, it is the most unorthodox shots, but his legs aren't the key on his shot... his torso and upper body are.. if those get somewhat square... he can driill it.

DevinHarriswillstart · 03-12-2009, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

FWIW, the stuff about Dirk's supposed inability to drive is bogus. I think Murph is right. Dirk just figured out that he can be more efficient shooting from 15 feet most of the time. It requires less energy, and he doesn't have to absorb as much punishment.

Great point. I believe this is why Dirk's prime will last a while. He doesn't need to be super athletic to keep up his offensive efficiency. He can shoot over 98% of the NBA without jumping. As long as that jump shot stays true then so will he. Setting him up as the play maker from the ft line has been brilliant.

TheMaverick · 03-12-2009, 10:39 AM

Great post from KG.

Dirk's driving game is similar to Deion Sander's tackling skills. They make business decisions when the time comes, and it just isn't worth the extra beating their bodies would take. Plus, when you have a shot like Dirk's why wouldn't you shoot the jumper almost every time. It will also prolong his career (if he elects to stay in the NBA when his contract is up).

craggmac · 03-12-2009, 11:27 AM

Shoot 'till the lights go out.

sefant77 · 03-12-2009, 12:14 PM

Big test for it tomorrow against Dirks little nightmare GS with Jax on him.

SMC0007 · 03-12-2009, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

Big test for it tomorrow against Dirks little nightmare GS with Jax on him.

I like Stephen JAX a lot, but I'm afraid you have it backwards. Jax has an appointment to get Dirked tomorrow.

What I want to see is Lamar Odom and Gasol get theirs as the MAvs hopefully beat the Lakers Sunday. I would trade a loss to GS for a win vs Lakers personally. Some confidence against a possible 1st rnd matchup.

TheMaverick · 03-12-2009, 06:15 PM

GS wasn't the same last year without Richardson.

and now is a COMPLETELY different team without Baron.

The G-Dubs do not scare me one bit.

Murphy3 · 03-12-2009, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I can't really fault him for that if that's the case..taking a beating, not getting the call and it could be deep down knowing that he can get pretty angry and take himself out of the game if he does that. I'm sure that's a bit of a stretch, but that's how I could see it, because that's what happens.

But if they double without the ball, Jet, Wright, Kidd, JJ...(eek) Josh HAVE to make them pay for it. They absolutely have to take advantage of the situation.

..which is one big reason as to why the Mavs didn't win the NBA Championship.. They didn't make the Heat pay for doubling Dirk.. even when they would double him at times without the ball. The Mavs offense stalled.

And yeah, Wade had his penis between Stern's buttcheeks.. that didn't help.

dude1394 · 03-12-2009, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I can't really fault him for that if that's the case..taking a beating, not getting the call and it could be deep down knowing that he can get pretty angry and take himself out of the game if he does that. I'm sure that's a bit of a stretch, but that's how I could see it, because that's what happens.

But if they double without the ball, Jet, Wright, Kidd, JJ...(eek) Josh HAVE to make them pay for it. They absolutely have to take advantage of the situation.

But they cannot. Nor could the team in the miami series.

IMO the mavs need a wing guy who can get to the free throw line...they have to have it...they don't. Josh could be it, but he's too erratic and not intelligent enough with the ball. They need another player.

twistaeffect2004 · 03-12-2009, 06:50 PM

I wonder why it took so long to implement this back into the offense? Not saying Dirk wasn't having a great year or anything like that, but he's so comfortable there that'd you would think it would of been our bread and butter play from the get go.

It's a great play for us. There's not a player in this league that can guard Dirk effectively in that spot. And if they double team him there's going to be an open man on the perimeter which gives them a chance to shoot the open J or slash to the bucket.

SMC0007 · 03-12-2009, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistaeffect2004

I wonder why it took so long to implement this back into the offense? Not saying Dirk wasn't having a great year or anything like that, but he's so comfortable there that'd you would think it would of been our bread and butter play from the get go.

It's a great play for us. There's not a player in this league that can guard Dirk effectively in that spot. And if they double team him there's going to be an open man on the perimeter which gives them a chance to shoot the open J or slash to the bucket.

I think he was guarded pretty damn well several times since he has been hanging out above the FTL actually. I mean he smoked them with some tough shots there were times that as a head coach on Portland and Suns that I would have been fine with the defense they played. Barnes and Aldridge were all over him doing what they could do but it wasn't enough. I am eager to see how the Lakers and Celtics defend that and how he overcomes defenses that game plan specifically for it.

SeriousSummer · 03-12-2009, 10:11 PM

I think Carlisle has tweaked the play. Dirk used to get the ball at the elbow, not he's getting in right in the middle of the court. It may be that the idea is to make the double team more difficult.

I think it changes the spacing enough so that it becomes harder to double team and then recover. When Dirk was at the elbow, there was only room for one more player on the strong side of the floor, so the Mavs had to overload the weak side where it was easier for two players to cover three.

Now with Dirk in the center, there are two players on each side of him, one high and one low. So long as both of the players away from the basket are willing to shoot, it's going to be harder to double team without giving up a wide open shot.

As to why the Mavs didn't do it earlier--my guess is Carlisle was worried about exhausting Dirk. I don't know but I would guess some of you have been in a game where you had to take all the shots for your team to have a chance to win. Even when you're hitting, it is exhausting to have to make a one on one move every time down the court for an entire game.

TheMaverick · 03-13-2009, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I think he was guarded pretty damn well several times since he has been hanging out above the FTL actually. I mean he smoked them with some tough shots there were times that as a head coach on Portland and Suns that I would have been fine with the defense they played. Barnes and Aldridge were all over him doing what they could do but it wasn't enough. I am eager to see how the Lakers and Celtics defend that and how he overcomes defenses that game plan specifically for it.

The Celtics ran that play against us with Paul Pierce for about 20 possessions in a row in the second half of the game in Dallas before the All-Star break.

sefant77 · 03-13-2009, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

But they cannot. Nor could the team in the miami series.

IMO the mavs need a wing guy who can get to the free throw line...they have to have it...they don't. Josh could be it, but he's too erratic and not intelligent enough with the ball. They need another player.

Yeah, that still the problem. Josh could but is deeply in love with his horrible "dribble step-back-long jumper", Wright is not consistent enough and overall not at a high enough skill level.

I would love to pull a good trade in summer. I know we werent good in that the last years but i think 2009 is the biggest chance since years. Lots of teams looking for 2010, several franchises struggle financially, some teams will get blown up and even if Cuban is talking often about 2010, he would pay for a nice trade. And we have Stack and Damps contract.

I would love Richardson if the Suns blows the team (what they should before 2010). His contract is kind of ugly (2/28 left) but he can go to the rim and shoot the Three. Kidd get his 2 years extension (since he dont wanna sit 4-5 years on the Boston or Magic bench, just Lakers MLE scares me) and 2011 can everyone except Terry and Carroll go home and Cuban can sell the Mavs easily after at least 1 championship

Of course there are several other nice players that should be available.

Well, that went to offseason-offtopic allready, sry

Just wanted to say that we have a nice shot even to improve the puzzle pieces around the Free throw line Iso next year...