Jeremy Lin.... - Page 11 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

sefant77 · 02-15-2012, 09:51 AM

iella · 02-15-2012, 12:32 PM

Lin said postgame that on the final possession, he looked back to D'antoni to ask if he could have the iso... reckless, maybe, but that's onions.

rabbitproof · 02-15-2012, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iella

Lin said postgame that on the final possession, he looked back to D'antoni to ask if he could have the iso... reckless, maybe, but that's onions.

You could see that. They could've drawn a play up but I think the Knicks liked the matchup they had with Calderon on Lin.

Loved Chandler's description of the final seconds. Apparently he thought Lin would drive for the bucket and he would get a rebound opportunity with about three seconds left. I was watching live and when it was down to two-ish seconds, you could tell Lin was going to lift up and drop the dagger from beyond. Kind of surprised Calderon still sat back at that point but that's the advantage of being the offensive player at the end of the game (they can see the clock).

Dirkadirkastan · 02-15-2012, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Kind of surprised Calderon still sat back at that point but that's the advantage of being the offensive player at the end of the game (they can see the clock).

There's a clock at either end of the floor...

rabbitproof · 02-15-2012, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

There's a clock at either end of the floor...

yeah, but the defender is usually watching the player.

j0Shi · 02-15-2012, 01:27 PM

We still have major sample size issues, ya know?

I truly hope that Kid will end up at least decent, because the fall from the Knicks savior to the sewers would be... no there's not comparison for that.

RE: Turnovers: Rookies do average a lot of turnovers. That's what you get playing them. Play through it.

rabbitproof · 02-15-2012, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j0Shi

We still have major sample size issues, ya know?

I truly hope that Kid will end up at least decent, because the fall from the Knicks savior to the sewers would be... no there's not comparison for that.

RE: Turnovers: Rookies do average a lot of turnovers. That's what you get playing them. Play through it.

That seems the be the only true blemish in his game right now. His jumper, although not consistent, can be improved and has shown signs of improvement.

You can't teach his court vision, finishing skills and athleticism (not in a John Wall sense but in the Nash way of balance, coordination and using both hands to finish).

j0Shi · 02-15-2012, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

That seems the be the only true blemish in his game right now. His jumper, although not consistent, can be improved and has shown signs of improvement.

You can't teach his court vision, finishing skills and athleticism (not in a John Wall sense but in the Nash way of balance, coordination and using both hands to finish).

Think his worth will be defined by his ability to get to the rim. Shot attempts will go way down with a (mentally) healthy Amare and Melo back in the lineup and then you're talking about a 1.5 - 1.7 AST_TOV ratio and and no 3-point game. So points will have to come at the line.

rabbitproof · 02-15-2012, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j0Shi

Think his worth will be defined by his ability to get to the rim. Shot attempts will go way down with a (mentally) healthy Amare and Melo back in the lineup and then you're talking about a 1.5 - 1.7 AST_TOV ratio and and no 3-point game. So points will have to come at the line.

Agree, his driving ability is what makes him special. Would also assume his efficiency improves if he is tasked with less scoring responsibility. Also would assume the ATO ratio will improve with experience and better teammate talent.

sefant77 · 02-15-2012, 09:06 PM

The best about Linsanity is all the cool pics and gifs flying around...

CadBane · 02-15-2012, 10:30 PM

BTW, Lin set another record. One I haven't heard a single soul mention. Most turnovers in a players first 5 starts (30). Is objectivity too much to ask? I found out about this through Twitter. It's ridiculous that ESPN wants to bring up his points record every 5 seconds but 100% ignore his other record.

twistaeffect2004 · 02-15-2012, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

BTW, Lin set another record. One I haven't heard a single soul mention. Most turnovers in a players first 5 starts (30). Is objectivity too much to ask? I found out about this through Twitter. It's ridiculous that ESPN wants to bring up his points record every 5 seconds but 100% ignore his other record.

No doubt about it, he's had blemishes, but what he's done for that team... everything being thrown around about him is absolutely warranted, he's saved their season.

particleman · 02-15-2012, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

BTW, Lin set another record. One I haven't heard a single soul mention. Most turnovers in a players first 5 starts (30). Is objectivity too much to ask? I found out about this through Twitter. It's ridiculous that ESPN wants to bring up his points record every 5 seconds but 100% ignore his other record.

I heard that same stat on ESPN today.

Scoobay · 02-15-2012, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

BTW, Lin set another record. One I haven't heard a single soul mention. Most turnovers in a players first 5 starts (30). Is objectivity too much to ask? I found out about this through Twitter. It's ridiculous that ESPN wants to bring up his points record every 5 seconds but 100% ignore his other record.

i believe ESPN did mention it in one of their highlight films but had no graphic for it and certainly did not put it somewhere in their printed articles. Selective reporting perhaps but it's more fun to talk about the good stuff. Expecting 'unbiased' reporting from ESPN is unrealistic.

Lin's individual stats aside, the Knicks are rolling now - 6-0. Turnovers or not, he's helped a nothing team pick it up and win, mostly without their top 2 players otherwise. it's been a fun ride. next few games should give some better indication of his play. I'm more curious to see if the Knicks are for real... I think Lin's shown me enough - he's playing like a top 15 pg which is a lot more than anyone would have said 2 weeks ago.

j0Shi · 02-15-2012, 10:51 PM

Media coverage is about stories, not the truth.

On twitter there are actually a lot of guys mentioning his turnovers and warning. Especially Pruiti is very unimpressed as far as I'm concerned and I would take his knowledge over most peoples.

rabbitproof · 02-15-2012, 11:08 PM

Whenever his scoring is quoted, so are his turnovers. He's still bringing a huge net positive to the team so the turnovers are in the shadows. It's damn ugly though.

His turnovers seem to happen in bunches as in two or three consecutively. Perhaps, it's a lapse in concentration or specific defense or play. Not sure. Read an Yahoo article that said if you look at their minutes played, his turnover rate is comparable to Steve Nash at this point in their careers. May be a stretch but he does only have ~600 minutes to his career..

CadBane · 02-16-2012, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Whenever his scoring is quoted, so are his turnovers.

That's just a flat out lie, but you've already shown you aren't going to be anywhere near objective when it comes to Lin.

chumdawg · 02-16-2012, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

That's just a flat out lie, but you've already shown you aren't going to be anywhere near objective when it comes to Lin.

But you are the master of that, right?

Underdog · 02-15-2012, 11:13 PM

Lin is doing more right than he is wrong... And at this point, he can only get better.

b_o_r · 02-15-2012, 11:32 PM

The turnover issue is only one if the coach makes it so, which he has not. I don't think his TO rate will decrease much because that offense is very risky to begin with.

Big Boy Laroux · 02-15-2012, 11:37 PM

They definitely mentioned the record for turnovers on SportsCenter, immediately following the points record.

It's much easier to overlook the turnovers as the Knicks are winning. Also, ball control is something that can be learned/practiced. He's not used to having the ball in his hands this much, or playing this many minutes. He's the Nash in D'antoni's system - remember Nash's TO's per game increased in the D'antoni system, to over 3 a game (some seasons over 3.5) - just the nature of that system, that relies so heavily on the PG.

CadBane · 02-16-2012, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

They definitely mentioned the record for turnovers on SportsCenter, immediately following the points record.

It's much easier to overlook the turnovers as the Knicks are winning. Also, ball control is something that can be learned/practiced. He's not used to having the ball in his hands this much, or playing this many minutes. He's the Nash in D'antoni's system - remember Nash's TO's per game increased in the D'antoni system, to over 3 a game (some seasons over 3.5) - just the nature of that system, that relies so heavily on the PG.

I didn't see it, but they certainly haven't showed it repeatedly like they have his other record (which I've seen displayed 12 times on Sportscenter in a mere 2 days).

rabbitproof · 02-16-2012, 12:07 AM

I saw it on ESPN.com and heard it on multiple podcasts. Not sure why you're tripping and hating on this kid.

He's doing great. That's all I've said.

Relax.

Big Boy Laroux · 02-16-2012, 12:14 AM

No one is denying the guy turns the ball over. But he's scoring, distributing the ball, and the knicks are on a 6-game win streak since he started logging heavy minutes. Of course people are going to focus on the positive.

He only had 1 TO against the Nets, and 2 against the wizards, both in 36 minutes of play. so it's not like he's losing the ball every game. I'd imagine the TO's have more to do with fatigue than anything else.

rabbitproof · 02-16-2012, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

No one is denying the guy turns the ball over. But he's scoring, distributing the ball, and the knicks are on a 6-game win streak since he started logging heavy minutes. Of course people are going to focus on the positive.

He only had 1 TO against the Nets, and 2 against the wizards, both in 36 minutes of play. so it's not like he's losing the ball every game. I'd imagine the TO's have more to do with fatigue than anything else.

Yeah, everybody knows he's turning it over. It's his scoring, passing and winning that's most worth printing though. If they start losing, the turnovers will get the limelight.

Scoobay · 02-16-2012, 12:53 AM

http://www.postingandtoasting.com/20...-of-fame-level

Ok so not exactly a bias-free site or post, but it's nice to look at some numbers.
Interesting that his usage rate is so high.

"So why does he have so many turnovers? His usage rate is the highest of all the point guards on the list; in fact, he's 5th among all players, ahead of Kevin Durant, and just a bit behind Carmelo and Lebron. He's been relied upon to make plays for and carry this team almost all the time he's on the floor, and he's been on that floor a disproportionate amount of the time compared to his teammates. This naturally results in more turnovers. Factor in the fatigue involved with such high minutes and usage and the turnover situation can seem to get a little out of control. As a result, you end up with a stinky Assist:Turnover ratio despite good play. Now, that isn't to say that Lin couldn't be doing more to rein his TO's in, as he certainly plays aggressively and sometimes, recklessly. But he isn't as bad as simply looking at the number of turnovers would suggest. He's been pretty damn good. Hope he keeps it up. If he can, those Stockton and Nash comparisons might not be so ridiculous after all."

Big Boy Laroux · 02-16-2012, 01:13 AM

Thanks, scoobay, that's what I was getting at with the discussion on d'Antoni's system. It really uses the PG. not surprised to see his usage rate so high.

CadBane · 02-16-2012, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

Thanks, scoobay, that's what I was getting at with the discussion on d'Antoni's system. It really uses the PG. not surprised to see his usage rate so high.

You can't have it both ways. A lot of his points & assists are due to high usage and minutes in the Dan Toni system. Raymond freaking Felton looked like an all-star under Dan Toni. People want to totally ignore this, but use the same points as excuses for his turnovers. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Look, Lin has played very very good ball, and it's a great story. I'm not denying that. I'd just like to see some objectivity applied when discussing him.

chumdawg · 02-16-2012, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

You can't have it both ways. A lot of his points & assists are due to high usage and minutes in the Dan Toni system. Raymond freaking Felton looked like an all-star under Dan Toni. People want to totally ignore this, but use the same points as excuses for his turnovers. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Look, Lin has played very very good ball, and it's a great story. I'm not denying that. I'd just like to see some objectivity applied when discussing him.

Most fans of the NBA don't care about the "objectivity" you place on a pedestal. Rather, they are enjoying being entertained by an incredibly interesting phenomenon.

Not to get too "meta" on you...but that might be something you should include in your assessment.

Scoobay · 02-16-2012, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

You can't have it both ways. A lot of his points & assists are due to high usage and minutes in the Dan Toni system. Raymond freaking Felton looked like an all-star under Dan Toni. People want to totally ignore this, but use the same points as excuses for his turnovers. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Look, Lin has played very very good ball, and it's a great story. I'm not denying that. I'd just like to see some objectivity applied when discussing him.

i think the main counter i'd give to it being just the system is that Lin is shooting 50% from the field. Don't have to look too far if you're wanting to find someone that'll just dominate the rock and jack up all kinds of junk just to fill up on points (cough, Melo)

What did Felton shoot last year under Dantoni? 42.3%.

here of course you'd argue sample size, but so far he's playing very very well and it's not just 'system'. He's playing in the system yes but he's making those opportunities count whether scoring or distributing. (5+ TO/game in the last 7 is putrid - he's got stuff to work on no doubt)

all that aside, it's fun watching him play. another bundle of TO's tonight, but also tons of nice assists.

Big Boy Laroux · 02-16-2012, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

You can't have it both ways. A lot of his points & assists are due to high usage and minutes in the Dan Toni system. Raymond freaking Felton looked like an all-star under Dan Toni. People want to totally ignore this, but use the same points as excuses for his turnovers. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Look, Lin has played very very good ball, and it's a great story. I'm not denying that. I'd just like to see some objectivity applied when discussing him.

I think I'm being very objective. I've acknowledged the turnovers - how can you not? It's a fact that he is turning the ball over, and he needs to improve that aspect of his game (which is a teachable skill). But did you even look at the link scoobay posted? Highest usage rate among PGs, lower TO% than most of them, (most notably Nash).

Of course a higher usage rate results in more shots and points. That's why it's important to look at the percentages. FG%, TO%, AST% tell the story.

At this point you're arguing with no one. Arguing for the sake of arguing. You're not being objective, but on the negative end of the spectrum. Pot, meet Kettle.

CadBane · 02-16-2012, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

I think I'm being very objective. I've acknowledged the turnovers - how can you not? It's a fact that he is turning the ball over, and he needs to improve that aspect of his game (which is a teachable skill). But did you even look at the link scoobay posted? Highest usage rate among PGs, lower TO% than most of them, (most notably Nash).

Of course a higher usage rate results in more shots and points. That's why it's important to look at the percentages. FG%, TO%, AST% tell the story.

At this point you're arguing with no one. Arguing for the sake of arguing. You're not being objective, but on the negative end of the spectrum. Pot, meet Kettle.

I wasn't speaking of you being not objective, but rather people in general. I'm not arguing with no one, I'm arguing with people that think the guy is a lock to be a future all-star.

Big Boy Laroux · 02-16-2012, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

I wasn't speaking of you being not objective, but rather people in general. I'm not arguing with no one, I'm arguing with people that think the guy is a lock to be a future all-star.

Well, when you quote me and say there's no objectivity, that's the inference I make.

Also, not sure who is claiming he's a future all-star... maybe smc is the only one? Everyone else seems to be thinking it's a great story and he could be a factor in the league.

Male30Dan · 02-16-2012, 01:37 AM

Simply don't understand the Lin hate. Cad, does your real name rhyme with Moyd Layfeather?

CadBane · 02-16-2012, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male30Dan

Simply don't understand the Lin hate. Cad, does your real name rhyme with Moyd Layfeather?

Jason Whitlock was worse. Did you see what he said? I guarantee if a White reporter had pulled that, he'd be fired.

Male30Dan · 02-16-2012, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Jason Whitlock was worse. Did you see what he said? I guarantee if a White reporter had pulled that, he'd be fired.

Indeed I did. Iggy jumped in as well recently.

Big Boy Laroux · 02-16-2012, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Jason Whitlock was worse. Did you see what he said? I guarantee if a White reporter had pulled that, he'd be fired.

We agree on something - that was ludicrous. Did he ever issue an apology?

b_o_r · 02-16-2012, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Jason Whitlock was worse. Did you see what he said? I guarantee if a White reporter had pulled that, he'd be fired.

Why would he be fired for insulting someone of Asian descent when insults African-Americans daily? Fox sports love his shock writing and has done so for years.

Big Boy Laroux · 02-16-2012, 08:33 AM

Make it a 7 game win streak. More TOs last night, but he brought it down to 6!

13 assists. He had a 4X5 (if you count turnovers...)

bobbyfg7 · 02-16-2012, 10:12 AM

I simply can't think of an instance when I had cake and didn't eat it ....