Mavs Free Agency 11/12 - Page 13 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Kidd Karma · 12-02-2011, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

saw this on Fish's site. Apparently Terry has been trying to talk TC into staying

"I've spoken to him every day for the last two weeks and he wants to be here, he wants to be a Maverick next year," Said Terry, adding that their conversations were the purpose of "recruiting." "Now, it's on ownership to make it happen."

Lets hope he's talking him into taking one for the team....home town discount. Can the guy realistically get 15 million over 4 years on the open market?

Underdog · 12-02-2011, 01:07 PM

Under the new CBA, can't the Mavs still offer Chandler one more year than any other team?

Instead of $15m/4 years, couldn't we do $12m/5 years? He'd still earn $60m, but he'd count $3m less per year against the cap...

(not that we'd want to do that, but isn't it possible under the new rules?)

dirno2000 · 12-02-2011, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kidd Karma

My followup question to the CBA would be, so can Orlando amnestize Arenas, since they were traded prior to the new CBA, but Arenas signed the contract with the Wizards.

He means players acquired via trade post lockout. So the Magic can't amnesty Arenas then trade Hedo to a team that will amnesty him.

jthig32 · 12-02-2011, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Under the new CBA, can't the Mavs still offer Chandler one more year than any other team?

Instead of $15m/4 years, couldn't we do $12m/5 years? He'd still earn $60m, but he'd count $3m less per year against the cap...

(not that we'd want to do that, but isn't it possible under the new rules?)

Yes

vinylstar · 12-02-2011, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Under the new CBA, can't the Mavs still offer Chandler one more year than any other team?

Instead of $15m/4 years, couldn't we do $12m/5 years? He'd still earn $60m, but he'd count $3m less per year against the cap...

(not that we'd want to do that, but isn't it possible under the new rules?)

I just don't see how Chandler is "worth" more than Terry or Kidd to the Mavs...esp with the new CBA. Granted Chandler filled a hole the Mavs had, but without Kidd or Terry an equally big hole exists. 9.5M/year for 4 years with max raises would be my final offer.

Kidd Karma · 12-02-2011, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Under the new CBA, can't the Mavs still offer Chandler one more year than any other team?

Instead of $15m/4 years, couldn't we do $12m/5 years? He'd still earn $60m, but he'd count $3m less per year against the cap...

(not that we'd want to do that, but isn't it possible under the new rules?)

Yea, but does Cuban/Nelson want to. The Damp Chip was to chase, Lebron/Bosh, it failed, they added an expiring in Chandler, maybe they just added him as a place holder to bridge them into a possible trade, or they will just eat the cap space for the 2012 class of Howard, Williams or Paul. There's 2 ways to look at it, bring Tyson back at your price,(4 years 10 million per) or save the cap space for 2012, which means Tyson gets a fat 1 year offer.

Underdog · 12-02-2011, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinylstar

I just don't see how Chandler is "worth" more than Terry or Kidd to the Mavs...esp with the new CBA. Granted Chandler filled a hole the Mavs had, but without Kidd or Terry an equally big hole exists. 9.5M/year for 4 years with max raises would be my final offer.

Kidd born 1973, height 6-4
Terry born 1977, height 6-2
Chandler born 1982, height 7-1

Hope that helps clarify things...

Kidd Karma · 12-02-2011, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinylstar

I just don't see how Chandler is "worth" more than Terry or Kidd to the Mavs...esp with the new CBA. Granted Chandler filled a hole the Mavs had, but without Kidd or Terry an equally big hole exists. 9.5M/year for 4 years with max raises would be my final offer.

This is way to subjective. You going to give Terry and Kidd, the same offer you giving to Chandler, 4 years 10 million? No, due to age. They are all at different points of their careers. Without Terry, we don't win, now if you move Terry add Fernandez, do you win last year? Same with Kidd you take Kidd out for say Bibby, do you win? No of course not, these players provided skill sets, that meshed at the right time and all helped us to win the prize. Like I've said before, Cuban has expressed publicly before that each player has a value to his team, economically he wouldn't overpay with free agent signings. Chandler is known and has proven that he's the top help defender out there, but his on ball defense is lacking, his individual offensive skills do not exist, so do you pay him 14+ a year? Economically irresponsible. Do you offer him a bit more because he "fits your team," sure, but what's his value to Cuban? 10 million? Does Cuban sacrifice 4 years to win now? Or does he stick with his plan to eat the cap space and wait for 2012? Its not an great position to be in, almost like the Nash spot.

grndmstr_c · 12-02-2011, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinylstar

I just don't see how Chandler is "worth" more than Terry or Kidd to the Mavs...esp with the new CBA. Granted Chandler filled a hole the Mavs had, but without Kidd or Terry an equally big hole exists. 9.5M/year for 4 years with max raises would be my final offer.

Others have (rightly) pointed out that the fact that TC is a center is one reason that he might be worth more. Nonetheless, I suspect your thinking isn't too far off from the Mavs' thinking. For all the noise Mark and Rick made about Tyson deserving a spot on the all-star team last season, most people, I think, can see that he's simply not that caliber of player. What he does well, he does extremely well, but he's still a fairly average man defender in the post, and he's very limited offensively, with a game that is extremely dependent on his athleticism (making his age less of a factor in setting his worth apart from iron-man JET's, for example). The Mavs' front office is well aware of his limitations, and they have an established history of shying away from giving contracts that average anything over 10 million per year to anybody who's not a legitimate all-star talent. I suspect that they are indeed balancing their desire to position themselves as title favorites this year by paying him market value against the reality that, when you look past the position he plays, he probably isn't worth that much more than Kidd or JET on a per-season basis.

SMC0007 · 12-02-2011, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Kidd born 1973, height 6-4
Terry born 1977, height 6-2
Chandler born 1982, height 7-1

Hope that helps clarify things...

Yep, No one born in the '70s is over 7 feet.

mavs777 · 12-02-2011, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

LOL, $20mil/year would make Chandler the 5th-highest paid player in the league, $18.75mil/year would make him the 7th-highest (and we're talking about pre-CBA salaries here).

Go for it, Golden State - one less team to compete with for the next 4 years...

wait what? golden state aren't "competing" right now

AO41 · 12-02-2011, 08:13 PM

Hmm GS did that,,then could Dallas go get Biedrins?? Because I would be all for that.

LSMF · 12-02-2011, 08:18 PM

Just say NO to Biedrins, I was lurking on a Warriors forum sometime last month and they were all complaining that Biedrins no longer wants to play basketball. They said Andris said in an interview that he wants to retire early and go back to his home of Latvia. The kid has lost all motivation, which pretty much explains his disappointing play as of late. Idk though maybe a change of scenery can help him, but that's a big risk.

DevinHarriswillstart · 12-02-2011, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AO41

Hmm GS did that,,then could Dallas go get Biedrins?? Because I would be all for that.

Dallas would want the 3 years 27 million remaining on his contract? I don't think so...

Five-ofan · 12-02-2011, 08:38 PM

You guys realize that chandler is somewhere between the 40-70th best player in basketball right.

chumdawg · 12-02-2011, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

You guys realize that chandler is somewhere between the 40-70th best player in basketball right.

Is that "best," or "most valuable?" Or is there not a difference?

dude1394 · 12-02-2011, 09:01 PM

And he's more valuable to some than others.

DevinHarriswillstart · 12-02-2011, 09:30 PM

Who gets the vibe that Tyson really wants to be a Maverick?

grndmstr_c · 12-02-2011, 09:36 PM

As long as we're splitting semantic hairs here, I'd argue that "most valuable" is a far more fickle thing than "best". If a player's value transcends his talent, it necessarily does so contextually. Change the context, and that value can come crashing back down to earth in a hurry.

AO41 · 12-02-2011, 10:11 PM

I really like Tyson a lot and I always thought that we needed a center like him or Camby when he was a bit younger next to Dirk...but I am getting a litte tired of people giving Tyson soo much of the credit for the title run....he had his moments, but so did almost every player on the team.

I have said it before....IMO 10-11 million a year...maybe. Anything more, I dont go for it. I will trust that Mark and the front office will get something done if Tyson leaves.

Five-ofan · 12-02-2011, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Is that "best," or "most valuable?" Or is there not a difference?

For him its both.

j0Shi · 12-02-2011, 10:18 PM

Quote:

In the meantime, here's a little teaser: The amount of money every NBA team can and will spend far exceeds the collective talent (both for quantity and quality). In other words … gentleman, start your dumb contract engines!!!! Who's ready to be overpaid??? Step right up! Who's first?

(It's almost like the lockout never happened. Almost.)

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...-nba-christmas

He's right on the money. Chandler will get more than he deserves, so will Butler. Oh and Stevenson wants a multi-year? Sure … but somewhere else. JJB seems the only one right now who tries to play it fair.

Weak FA-class + Teams that, in some cases, even HAVE to spend = Overpaying.

chumdawg · 12-02-2011, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

As long as we're splitting semantic hairs here, I'd argue that "most valuable" is a far more fickle thing than "best". If a player's value transcends his talent, it necessarily does so contextually. Change the context, and that value can come crashing back down to earth in a hurry.

Yes, but of course there is a flip side to that coin. Your own team could swap a player for a more talented one and see the competitive product suffer.

grndmstr_c · 12-02-2011, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Yes, but of course there is a flip side to that coin. Your own team could swap a player for a more talented one and see the competitive product suffer.

Obviously. That's beside the point when it comes to Tyson, though. Unless you think the players Dallas is planning on chasing next summer if they end up with cap room are going to be bad fits.

chumdawg · 12-02-2011, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Obviously. That's beside the point when it comes to Tyson, though. Unless you think the players Dallas is planning on chasing next summer if they end up with cap room are going to be bad fits.

I don't know what the answer to that is (nor am I certain it would be relevant), but I do think that Chandler is a very good fit.

dude1394 · 12-02-2011, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

As long as we're splitting semantic hairs here, I'd argue that "most valuable" is a far more fickle thing than "best". If a player's value transcends his talent, it necessarily does so contextually. Change the context, and that value can come crashing back down to earth in a hurry.

Agreed... Tyson playing for the Phoenix suns under dantoni would not have been nearly the same impact. But that almost makes the case to overpay ty.

j0Shi · 12-02-2011, 11:07 PM

Quote:

According to sources, Nene, Chandler and Gasol all set their early asking prices in the neighborhood of maximum-contract territory, starting at $14.8 million for Gasol, $17.7 annually for Nene, and $20.7 million for Chandler. There is plenty of crossover in their respective lists of salary-cap-friendly suitors, with the Nets, Rockets and Warriors appearing to be the hungriest shoppers, and the Pacers and Trail Blazers strolling the big man aisles as well.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...#ixzz1fRPZIYOT

I shit my pants if somebody pays Chandler more than Nene.

wilmtalk · 12-02-2011, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Kidd born 1973, height 6-4
Terry born 1977, height 6-2
Chandler born 1982, height 7-1

Hope that helps clarify things...

But if you stand Terry on Kidds shoulders they would equal about 11' 6".

All kidding aside what people seem to have forgotten is that TC as a top help defender ( his strength) mitigates Kidds and Terry's defensive libilities. Unless you replace him with an equal help defender they will hurt you on defense which is the problem Dallas had before he got here. His skill set is not as valuable to another team as it is to the Mavs but with out him Terry and Kidd are libilities. They need TC to be effective on the floor. Kidd is getting older and Terry had a good playoff but will he ever have another? Also without JB the guards still couldn't penitrate last year. Both Kidd and Terry are incomplete guards who need the right pieces around them to be effective. If you lose TC you will also need to think about replacing either Kidd or Terry.

AO41 · 12-02-2011, 11:24 PM

I will LOL if Tyson gets more money from someone than Nene or Gasol. Aagain I like Tyson..but he is NOT a max guy...10-11 millions tops.

grndmstr_c · 12-02-2011, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I don't know what the answer to that is (nor am I certain it would be relevant), but I do think that Chandler is a very good fit.

I agree that he's a good fit. But I also think that a big part of the reason he's such a good fit is the rather unusual composition of the Dallas backcourt. If I thought Dallas could count on the Kidd/JET duo as their go-to backcourt for the next three seasons I'd be more on board with the value/fit argument for re-signing Chandler, but I just don't believe that's realistic.

Mavsfan4ever · 12-02-2011, 11:40 PM

While I would prefer a guy like Chandler at center I have to agree with what others have said. He is not a guy you want to be paying the max though I'm sure some team would pay for him.

grndmstr_c · 12-02-2011, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Agreed... Tyson playing for the Phoenix suns under dantoni would not have been nearly the same impact. But that almost makes the case to overpay ty.

I actually think just the opposite, and give the reason in my response to CD just above.

Underdog · 12-03-2011, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Who gets the vibe that Tyson really wants to be a Maverick?

I think Tyson really wants to be a Maverick, but cashing in on a career season should (rightfully) be his biggest priority. Maybe he lives up to the contract, maybe he doesn't - he gets paid either way.

But then again, he's already made $80m in his career - maybe he's the type of guy who would sacrifice a ~$20m in a $120-140m career as long as he has a legitimate shot at winning another ring or two? Maybe, who knows?

Melonhead · 12-03-2011, 12:31 AM

20 million...I love you Chandler, and your hard nosed defense, but Dallas will survive not giving up a contract like that. Asinine. Hope you land somewhere you like.

vinylstar · 12-03-2011, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Kidd born 1973, height 6-4
Terry born 1977, height 6-2
Chandler born 1982, height 7-1

Hope that helps clarify things...

It doesn't. People should be paid in terms of production exclusively. I don't care if JKidd is 50...pay him based on what he contributes.

j0Shi · 12-03-2011, 01:17 AM

Getting a little confused right now. Obviously Mavs could resign Ty with Bird Exception, but then would most certainly went over the Tax threshold and couldn't use the Full MLE. Butler and JJB are also Bird Agents, so why not spend the MLE first and then resign all your Bird Agents? Is there a certain "order" that you have to keep?

dude1394 · 12-03-2011, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j0Shi

I shit my pants if somebody pays Chandler more than Nene.

According to sources, Nene, Chandler and Gasol all set their early asking prices in the neighborhood of maximum-contract territory, starting at $14.8 million for Gasol, $17.7 annually for Nene, and $20.7 million for Chandler. There is plenty of crossover in their respective lists of salary-cap-friendly suitors, with the Nets, Rockets and Warriors appearing to be the hungriest shoppers, and the Pacers and Trail Blazers strolling the big man aisles as well.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...#ixzz1fRPZIYOT

Who set the early asking price themselves!! They'll get a comeuppance quick enough.

Budapest Maverick · 12-03-2011, 04:49 AM

This is a joke, none of them worth max money, but especially not Chandler. What is he thinking? He's an excellent one way role player but not a guy who you even think to pay the max to. Especially with his injury history, and reputation as "contract year" guy. Nobody can be that stupid to give him a 20 million dollar contract, nobody. Not a chance. So, are we looking at Dalembert now? He's actually kinda similar to Tyson, and put up 8/8 in 24 (!) minutes last year, had a 10/10 season, and is actually a 12/11/2,6 block per36 player career wise. He would put up 12/10/2,5 PER 36 on our team, and maybe not quite the team defender Tyson is, but still a very good one, he would give a different look than Haywood.

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 12-03-2011, 05:42 AM

My guess is he ends up with someone like Houston, a team he wont put over the top, for something like $15-$17mil/year. I think we're saying goodbye to Ty.

I dont really blame Donnie and Cubes for not signing him for that much.

41mvp · 12-03-2011, 07:35 AM

For me Tyson Chandler is one of the best C in the league.And he is worth every money.I don't want know what will happen when Tyson go.