With the #3 pick (!) in the 2018 draft, the Mavs get Luka Doncic - Page 5 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Underdog · 06-28-2018, 10:52 AM

Dude trying to limbo under the bar I set...

SMC0007 · 06-28-2018, 11:06 AM

Lol oh my. This thread is fishtailing all over the road now. I think it needs to devolve into bad NBA rappings.

BPo001 · 06-29-2018, 09:04 AM

I think Modano gets looked over a bit because Cowboys are king in Dallas. Of course when you think of the Dallas Stars Modano is the first name that comes to mind. I'd probably go Staubach, Dirk, Modano, and Emmit.

MavzMan · 06-29-2018, 09:16 AM

I'm not a big baseball or Rangers fan, but where does Nolan Ryan stand in that list?

Luke · 06-29-2018, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavzMan

I'm not a big baseball or Rangers fan, but where does Nolan Ryan stand in that list?

Ryan was huge in Rangers baseball. He is...how to explain this... He is much larger in Rangers lore than his actual production. He wasn't here very long and was 40+ in age. So yeah, he was still pitching at a high level, but he wasn't necessarily at the peak of his prime. Amazingly enough, he had a prime that went from 1972 to 1991. But that prime only extended 3 to maybe 4 years of his time with the Rangers. His name alone brought the Rangers a tremendous amount of legitimacy. There was talk about the Rangers moving somewhere else in the country. Because of Ryan, that didn't happen.

So where does he stand? Realistically, he stands as tall or taller than anyone in the history of DFW sports. He is as beloved as anyone to ever come through the DFW sports scene. The only real comparables would be Staubach and Ryan. But, you might not put him on the Mount Rushmore of the DFW sports simply because he wasn't here long enough.

If you're picking one from every sport, Ryan would be on your short list of possibilities for the Rangers:
Pudge
Ryan
Juan Gonzalez (although he's not beloved by fans so that takes him out of the running. But he was among the best in the game during his time in Texas. Top 5 in MVP voting 3 times in Texas including 2 wins)
Michael Young (although he's a bit of an average player that just happened to play a long time in Texas... he was a "leader" and is beloved
Adrian Beltre (far better player than Michael Young..still playing at a high level)

BPo001 · 06-29-2018, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke

Ryan was huge in Rangers baseball. He is...how to explain this... He is much larger in Rangers lore than his actual production. He wasn't here very long and was 40+ in age. So yeah, he was still pitching at a high level, but he wasn't necessarily at the peak of his prime. Amazingly enough, he had a prime that went from 1972 to 1991. But that prime only extended 3 to maybe 4 years of his time with the Rangers. His name alone brought the Rangers a tremendous amount of legitimacy. There was talk about the Rangers moving somewhere else in the country. Because of Ryan, that didn't happen.

So where does he stand? Realistically, he stands as tall or taller than anyone in the history of DFW sports. He is as beloved as anyone to ever come through the DFW sports scene. The only real comparables would be Staubach and Ryan. But, you might not put him on the Mount Rushmore of the DFW sports simply because he wasn't here long enough.

Spot on. Couldn't have said it better myself.

BigDog63 · 06-30-2018, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke

Michael Young (although he's a bit of an average player that just happened to play a long time in Texas... he was a "leader" and is beloved

You need to review his statistics.

They are very comparable to this person's. Was he also a bit of an average player?

saclare · 06-30-2018, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigDog63

You need to review his statistics.

They are very comparable to this person's. Was he also a bit of an average player?

Ermm I know you are supporting my argument as Michael Young as definitely above average. But to Derek Jeter was by far the better player in that grouping you presented. Derek Jeter is in the all-time conversation for shortstops.

saclare · 06-29-2018, 10:29 AM

I'd put Pudge and Michael Young above Nolan Ryan for the Rangers. As alluded to, we got some good years of pitching from him, but on the down side and out. But I feel his front office contributions are exaggerated and that he wasn't as instrumental to that side of Rangers' success as most think.

I'd love to have had Beltre for more seasons. He'd absolutely be the front runner.

Luke · 06-29-2018, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saclare

I'd put Pudge and Michael Young above Nolan Ryan for the Rangers. As alluded to, we got some good years of pitching from him, but on the down side and out. But I feel his front office contributions are exaggerated and that he wasn't as instrumental to that side of Rangers' success as most think.

I'd love to have had Beltre for more seasons. He'd absolutely be the front runner.

Michael Young was a very average MLB starting position player. He just happened to be a very average MLB starting position player for a long time in a Rangers uniform. Not sure who to compare him to in the NBA... maybe a slight tick behind a Derek Harper type.. A nice player.. But if you have a team full of them, you're not going to compete for any titles.
Michael Young did have 2-3 outlier seasons in which he was a really good player. But on average, he was pretty average as far as major league starting position players go.
For instance, the first year the Rangers went to the World Series, Michael Young was 11th on the team in WAR...

MavzMan · 06-29-2018, 10:56 AM

All I remember of Nolan is Robin Ventura, Nolan Ryan duke it out

saclare · 06-29-2018, 02:59 PM

Hmm a career .300 hitter, 7 time all-star, gold glove winner, leadership role for years, intangibles (when it comes to a Mt. Rushmore)...

He's far from average, come on...

And the year you referenced was his age 33 season in which he had a down year, still hit .284 with 21 HRs and 91 RBI. He bounced back pretty strongly in 2011. It was also the year where his issues arose with the Rangers and he requested a trade. First year he primarily DH'd and used more like a utility infielder, occasionally playing first base. I think he can get a slight mental pass there.

In any event, he most definitely belongs in the conversation with Nolan and Pudge when discussing who would rep the Rangers.

Luke · 07-03-2018, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saclare

Hmm a career .300 hitter, 7 time all-star, gold glove winner, leadership role for years, intangibles (when it comes to a Mt. Rushmore)...

He's far from average, come on...

And the year you referenced was his age 33 season in which he had a down year, still hit .284 with 21 HRs and 91 RBI. He bounced back pretty strongly in 2011. It was also the year where his issues arose with the Rangers and he requested a trade. First year he primarily DH'd and used more like a utility infielder, occasionally playing first base. I think he can get a slight mental pass there.

In any event, he most definitely belongs in the conversation with Nolan and Pudge when discussing who would rep the Rangers.

Michael Young had three years with an OPS+ above 110 in his career. Keep in mind that 100 is league average. His career OPS+ was 104. As a hitter, he was slightly above average. He just didn't get on base enough for a guy that didn't have a ton of power. I know you can look at his numbers and think he had some pop, but in that era in baseball, he really didn't have much.

Defensively, I know he won a gold glove, but he was bad.. His dWAR for his career was a -10.5. For as big of bad rap as Dirk gets for his defense..think worse..far, far worse..significantly worse. No, he didn't make a ton of errors, he just didn't have any range. Again, his WAR for his career was 24.6 What does that tell you? 0-2 for a WAR in a single season is basically a sub level. 2+ is a starter level. During his PRIME years in Texas, he had a combined WAR of 27.4 over the 10 year period. That's a starter but far below an All-Star level. Not one year in his career did his WAR even approach All-Star level.

Michael Young will always be the beneficiary of advanced metrics not being main stream in the baseball world. If they were during his prime, he would have been looked at in a much different light.

He was a pretty good to good player. But if he's on your Mount Rushmore..your Mount Rushmore sucks especially if you're just picking one person from each sport.

In contrast, Pudge's career WAR was 68.7 with a 10 year stretch in Texas totaling 47.4..averaging playing right about at an All-Star level year in and year out).

And for reference, in Ryan's 4 full years in Texas from age 42-45, his WAR averaged 4.0...

I know that Palmeiro isn't going to get alot of votes from anyone, but he belongs right up there.

Jim Sundberg belongs up there ahead of Michael Young. He was a generational type talent defensively and developed into a decent hitter.

Toby Harrah vs Michael Young would be an interesting argument. Harrah was the better player for his career but you could make an argument for Young over Harrah because of the amount of time he spent with Texas.

I would put Charlie Hough right there with Michael Young as well. ERA+ of 111 in his 10+ years in Texas with 139 wins.

And trust me, I know that it's difficult to use WAR comparing pitchers and hitters... Advanced metrics aren't everything. But they do a pretty good job. Defensive metrics are flawed, but over the course of a career, they tend to be a pretty good indicator of whether or not you're a good fielder.

Luke · 07-03-2018, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saclare

Hmm a career .300 hitter, 7 time all-star, gold glove winner, leadership role for years, intangibles (when it comes to a Mt. Rushmore)...

He's far from average, come on...

And the year you referenced was his age 33 season in which he had a down year, still hit .284 with 21 HRs and 91 RBI. He bounced back pretty strongly in 2011. It was also the year where his issues arose with the Rangers and he requested a trade. First year he primarily DH'd and used more like a utility infielder, occasionally playing first base. I think he can get a slight mental pass there.

In any event, he most definitely belongs in the conversation with Nolan and Pudge when discussing who would rep the Rangers.

And yes, the year I referenced wasn't his best year by any stretch..but, it wasn't that far off of his average year. And it leads us to what Michael Young was. Michael Young was an average to pretty good player on a bad team for a long time. When the team was good, he was an average to pretty good player. He's so wildly appreciate by fans in Texas in large part because there was so little to appreciate with the Texas Rangers for several years. But that shouldn't get you on Mount Rushmore. Charlie Hough was a pretty good to good pitcher for a long time with the Rangers... He was one of the only things to look forward to... But he doesn't belong either.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-30-2018, 02:06 AM

I considered Modano. For me, Mount Rushmore isn't necessarily who's the best. It's who's the biggest name, and who's the biggest legend. The only way he makes the DFW Mount Rushmore is if you're required to include someone from each sport. If you're requiring someone from each major sport, then Modano is mandatory. Otherwise, if we're just going by biggest names/legends in the history of Dallas sports, not only does he not make Mount Rushmore, but honestly he's not even close IMO. Don't get me wrong, this isn't because he doesn't necessarily deserve it, or he didn't have a great enough career. It's because, well... it's hockey. As far as the four major sports go here in Dallas in terms of popularity/importance, hockey is not only fourth, but it's a veeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrryyyyy distant fourth. I listen to ESPN Dallas in the car almost every afternoon. I'd wager they spend at least 75% of the time talking about the Cowboys, the rest of the time is pretty evenly split between the Mavs and Rangers. The Stars, however, practically not even on the radar. Honestly, they might as well play in a different city, going by how much the local media covers them.

So on that basis, while Modano certainly had greater career relative to his respective sport than say, Tony Romo, Romo was and still is a FAR bigger name here in DFW than Modano ever was. Honestly, you could come up with a pretty long list of Cowboys who register much higher on the DFW sports radar than Modano ever did, even if they didn't accomplish near as much in the NFL as he did in the NHL. Just about any noteworthy Cowboy through the years probably garnered more attention here than one of the top 100 NHL players ever. Dak Prescott, Ezekiel Elliott, Jason Witten, Dez Bryant, Demarcus Ware, Michael Irvin, Tony Dorsett, Drew Pearson (hell, pretty much anyone from the Landry years...) Honestly, I might even put Daryl Johnston higher than Modano.

Honestly I don't think any Rangers would come even close either, or any Mavs outside of Dirk. Dirk is the one and only exception because he's one of the top 20 greatest NBA players ever.

BigDog63 · 06-30-2018, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I listen to ESPN Dallas in the car almost every afternoon. I'd wager they spend at least 75% of the time talking about the Cowboys, the rest of the time is pretty evenly split between the Mavs and Rangers. The Stars, however, practically not even on the radar. Honestly, they might as well play in a different city, going by how much the local media covers them.

To your point, they have their Hockey Minute. Literally...60 seconds for hockey.

rimrocker · 07-03-2018, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I listen to ESPN Dallas in the car almost every afternoon. I'd wager they spend at least 75% of the time talking about the Cowboys, the rest of the time is pretty evenly split between the Mavs and Rangers. The Stars, however, practically not even on the radar. Honestly, they might as well play in a different city, going by how much the local media covers them.

Don't switch to ESPN 103.3....it is worse.
They rarely talk about the Mavs and when they do they have to inject Cowboy analogies on nearly every topic.

It's a little tough living in Dallas being a sports minded non-Cowboys fan.

Bryan_Wilson · 07-03-2018, 06:55 PM

https://www.mavs.com/luka-doncic-cho...nnis-smith-jr/

Dtownsfinest · 07-03-2018, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rimrocker

Don't switch to ESPN 103.3....it is worse.
They rarely talk about the Mavs and when they do they have to inject Cowboy analogies on nearly every topic.

It's a little tough living in Dallas being a sports minded non-Cowboys fan.

I mean its July....Football is a few months away......not really much to talk about once you get past DJ.

turin · 06-30-2018, 12:03 PM

I should have put the caveat with my list that there was one athlete for each of the 4 major professional sports franchises.

If it's strictly legends, then for me

Dirk
Ryan
Staubach
Emmett

Thebo · 07-01-2018, 12:10 PM

I have to admit I was never high on My Bamba, but this board's comments of his wit and IQ changed my opinion. It was mostly down to my reluctance to have any 7'1+ player on a team. History shows that they will suffer a serious injury and you never know how they will respond.

Mavs drafting Luka was a pleasant surprise, but it has been amazing how Luka was hyped before draft and after joining Mavs he became like a role player. Coach Nick of BBallbreakdown was hyping him before draft but when it was clear that Trae Young is joining Hawks, his live commentary of draft spent much more time about talking what Trae is and discussion about Luka lasted less than a minute. It is almost as he hates Mavs.

I personally see Luka as minimum Ginobili potential and Trae Young more of an improvement of Deshawn Stevenson, who can score better and pass better (mostly due to improved talent over the years). I'm sorry to say but he just doesn't sound that smart / capable to mention amongst future Russell-Westbrook-like talents. Similar could be said about Ayton. I think Ayton ends up as solid starter but missing that something to make him a star. Just comments and behaviour leave a lot to wish for. Talent and physical attributes are there, but to carry a team... I'm less sure of that. Besides, he's joining PHX Suns...

SMC0007 · 07-03-2018, 01:37 PM

This thread turned into a shit show

BPo001 · 07-03-2018, 04:53 PM

105.3 is saying Luka got in a car wreck today. Not major, but there is a picture floating around of Carlisle talking to the cops.

thewizard · 07-03-2018, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BPo001

105.3 is saying Luka got in a car wreck today. Not major, but there is a picture floating around of Carlisle talking to the cops.

Cuban, hire a driver for this kid! Don't let him drive anymore!

sefant77 · 07-03-2018, 05:42 PM

Take away his Tesla

Mavs#1Fan · 07-03-2018, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

Take away his Tesla

He has a Porsche

DevinHarriswillstart · 07-03-2018, 05:58 PM

Well have you seen him park? That kid needs a driver!

SMC0007 · 07-04-2018, 05:13 PM

Check out @dallasmavs’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/dallasmavs/statu...272305666?s=09

Bryan_Wilson · 07-04-2018, 05:22 PM

1st time I watched- Aww yeah, this song kinda sucks though... I mean I know his nickname but still...

2-4th time I watched- Man he looks good in mavs colors and this song isn't so bad anymore.

5+ times - WUNNNNNNNDERBOOOIIIIIII

SMC0007 · 07-04-2018, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

1st time I watched- Aww yeah, this song kinda sucks though... I mean I know his nickname but still...

2-4th time I watched- Man he looks good in mavs colors and this song isn't so bad anymore.

5+ times - WUNNNNNNNDERBOOOIIIIIII

Lol. Well I'm tired of terrible rap songs on bball videos. It's running rampant. Tenacious d is still cool in my book.

DevinHarriswillstart · 07-04-2018, 05:23 PM

Wanna see quickness and athleticism!

SMC0007 · 07-04-2018, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Wanna see quickness and athleticism!

I'm sure there is a dsj video coming soon.

Me.B · 07-05-2018, 08:57 AM

Looks like Luka has a new tat on the outside of his forearm.

DevinHarriswillstart · 07-05-2018, 09:13 AM

Good video breaking down Luka's passing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8mJLfJ0Tyg

Mavs#1Fan · 07-05-2018, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Good video breaking down Luka's passing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8mJLfJ0Tyg

I watched it

Excellent breakdown

Bryan_Wilson · 07-05-2018, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Good video breaking down Luka's passing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8mJLfJ0Tyg

Just seems like a perfect fit for our offense. He's what I think they hoped Parsons would have been. Except he is infinitely more skilled and isn't someone you want to punch in the face every time he talks.

I'm beyond stoked that in b2b years we got players I thought we had literally no shot at with DSJ and Doncic. We picked 2 really good years to suck.

Underdog · 07-05-2018, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

Just seems like a perfect fit for our offense. He's what I think they hoped Parsons would have been. Except he is infinitely more skilled and isn't someone you want to punch in the face every time he talks.

I'm beyond stoked that in b2b years we got players I thought we had literally no shot at with DSJ and Doncic. We picked 2 really good years to suck.

Glad to see someone other than myself finally saying this... He's 100% going to take the same point-forward role that we hoped Parsons would have thrived in.

Skywalker · 07-05-2018, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Good video breaking down Luka's passing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8mJLfJ0Tyg

Great stuff. Really can't wait to see him play tbh

Budapest Maverick · 07-05-2018, 02:07 PM

Luka is infinitely more talented than Parsons is. His ball handling and passing is on a whole other level, and even his scoring skills are superior. I would actually also project him to be a much better shooter as well, Parsons was never really a great shooter, and definitely not a natural shooter. A natural shooter does not average 68, 72% or even 74% from the line in seasons when he is healthy. That's LeBron range, and that's NOT a natural shooter. Luka's form is much better, his shots have better trajectory, and if you factor in that he took a lot of heaves and step back threes, there is no reason to think that he could not be a very good shooter from day 1, and possibly elite surprisingly soon.

sefant77 · 07-05-2018, 10:11 AM

He is in every aspect much better than Parsons