(Warning: Indirect electoral issue) Bill criminalizes violent harm to fetus

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: FreshJive

American soldiers were supposed to arrest people who were shooting at them?

Dan, where are these athiests on the Passion thread? I was quite dissapointed to not find any.

I may or may not use sarcasm in posts from time to time..you be the judge.

[mercury_rev]

Originally posted by: jacktruth

If it's not a person, what is it?

A first trimester fetus is a potential person, not an actual person. An acorn is a potential oak tree, not an actual one.

This isn't merely a matter of semantics. We are all potential corpses -- it's not just semantics that separates an actual corpse from a potential one.

[FreshJive]

Originally posted by: Murphy3

I may or may not use sarcasm in posts from time to time..you be the judge.

My bad, the way Dan piggybacked it I thought you were serious.

[Male30Dan]

OK... Why does God give us a choice??? So that everything he wishes you to do will be done out of free will, not you being forced into it... That doesnt mean that because he gives you a choice that it is OK to choose wrong... It still hurts him greatly when we sin... I sin just like everyone else does... But the difference is that I made a choice a good time ago to learn from my mistakes, to think through my decisions as best I can based on what God would have me do, and to then make a decision that is best for both God and me.

You cant cheat God and twist his words to make your life better. You cant do that and then say Well, God loves me and WHO ARE YOU TO SAY OTHERWISE... Of course he loves you, just as he loves those who have abortions... But he hurts when you kill off his miracle... You just cant do that type of thing... I see it every day... People do it more and more now... They say, "God will forgive me, so I will do it anyway"! Or they do something and without being sorry for it, try to ask for forgiveness because some guy told them that if they ask for forgiveness they will be forgiven...

Look, I am sorry that all of this has come to this, but I am serious Mary... Same to you Max, and anyone else reading this... Abortion is wrong because it is murder, and despite what you want to label that baby inside of you, it is murder nonetheless...

[u2sarajevo]

Originally posted by: mercury_rev
A first trimester fetus is a potential person, not an actual person. An acorn is a potential oak tree, not an actual one.

This isn't merely a matter of semantics. We are all potential corpses -- it's not just semantics that separates an actual corpse from a potential one.

How am I not to be offended by you comparing a baby with a tree?

Is the difference not obvious to you?

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: FreshJive

American soldiers were supposed to arrest people who were shooting at them?

Dan, where are these athiests on the Passion thread? I was quite dissapointed to not find any.

Oh you will get your full of them within IMDB.com

It honestly brought me to tears to hear what some of them said in their ridicule!

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: FreshJive

My bad, the way Dan piggybacked it I thought you were serious.

Not sarcasm here...

People should stand trial for their crimes... There are more ways than exploding someone's brain on the floor to bring justice to our world...

[mary]

And quite clearly killing was not one of the things he was for.

Hmmm...I'm a little fuzzy on that. I never got the impression that God was categorically against any and all killing. There was that little "Killing of the First Born" incident, not to mention a few sanctioned wars.

[mercury_rev]

Originally posted by: u2sarajevo

How am I not to be offended by you comparing a baby with a tree?

Is the difference not obvious to you?

I wasn't comparing a baby to a tree. I was using fetuses and acorns as examples of potential beings.

[u2sarajevo]

Originally posted by: mercury_rev
I wasn't comparing a baby to a tree. I was using fetuses and acorns as examples of potential beings.

Oh I'm sorry, I thought you were inferring that it was trivial to throw away an acorn and comparing that to throwing away a fetus.

I missed the point then, what was it?

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: Male22Dan
OK... Why does God give us a choice??? So that everything he wishes you to do will be done out of free will, not you being forced into it... That doesnt mean that because he gives you a choice that it is OK to choose wrong... It still hurts him greatly when we sin... I sin just like everyone else does... But the difference is that I made a choice a good time ago to learn from my mistakes, to think through my decisions as best I can based on what God would have me do, and to then make a decision that is best for both God and me.

You cant cheat God and twist his words to make your life better. You cant do that and then say Well, God loves me and WHO ARE YOU TO SAY OTHERWISE... Of course he loves you, just as he loves those who have abortions... But he hurts when you kill off his miracle... You just cant do that type of thing... I see it every day... People do it more and more now... They say, "God will forgive me, so I will do it anyway"! Or they do something and without being sorry for it, try to ask for forgiveness because some guy told them that if they ask for forgiveness they will be forgiven...

Look, I am sorry that all of this has come to this, but I am serious Mary... Same to you Max, and anyone else reading this... Abortion is wrong because it is murder, and despite what you want to label that baby inside of you, it is murder nonetheless...

Mary, Max, Fresh, Murph, and everyone else that thinks me to be foolish...

Please do not avoid the posts such as this...

I need to see what you have to say when these types of questions and comments are raised...


Everyone is really good to get snappy, harsh, and down-right mean at times... But when the good book and God is put in front of them, they turn their head and make more snappy, harsh, and down-right mean comments!!!

[mary]

Originally posted by: Male22Dan
OK... Why does God give us a choice??? So that everything he wishes you to do will be done out of free will, not you being forced into it... That doesnt mean that because he gives you a choice that it is OK to choose wrong... It still hurts him greatly when we sin... I sin just like everyone else does... But the difference is that I made a choice a good time ago to learn from my mistakes, to think through my decisions as best I can based on what God would have me do, and to then make a decision that is best for both God and me.

You cant cheat God and twist his words to make your life better. You cant do that and then say Well, God loves me and WHO ARE YOU TO SAY OTHERWISE... Of course he loves you, just as he loves those who have abortions... But he hurts when you kill off his miracle... You just cant do that type of thing... I see it every day... People do it more and more now... They say, "God will forgive me, so I will do it anyway"! Or they do something and without being sorry for it, try to ask for forgiveness because some guy told them that if they ask for forgiveness they will be forgiven...

Look, I am sorry that all of this has come to this, but I am serious Mary... Same to you Max, and anyone else reading this... Abortion is wrong because it is murder, and despite what you want to label that baby inside of you, it is murder nonetheless...

Okay, but I anwered your question. Its your turn.

[mercury_rev]

U2, sorry if I was unclear. My point is that it's fallacious to equate a potential being with an actual being. They are two different entities. An acorn is a potential oak tree, not an actual oak. Bronze is a potential sculpture, not an actual sculpture. A fetus is a potential person, not an actual one. This distinction between potentiality and actuality goes back to Aristotle.

Most (all?) arguments attributing personhood to a first-trimester fetus involve religious (usu. Christian) premises. If one doesn't share those premises, why should one be moved by religiously based anti-abortion arguments?

[mary]

Originally posted by: mercury_rev
U2, sorry if I was unclear. Most (all?) arguments attributing personhood to a first-trimester fetus involve religious (usu. Christian) premises. If one doesn't share those premises, why should one be moved by religiously based anti-abortion arguments?

Exactly Mercury.

Again, I never even said whether I "believed" in abortion or not (whatever that means), but I can at least recognize that this is something very personal and should be left up to each individual and each individual's beliefs. Its really that simple.

[FreshJive]

So Dan or U2, at what point does a mass of cells become a human according to God's laws? Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe it says. So, in the real world we must make decisions on how to best govern ourselves. Personally I am against abortion at some point in the gestation period. However, as I am not an expert on human development. I'm not sure what the time period ought to be. I also, think that Scott Peterson ought to be charged with two murders, and that the opposition to this is purely political bullshite.

[Male30Dan]

My turn for what??? To answer your question about why women have a clitoris??? Should I retort with why do men have a head on their penis with sensitive feelings??? I would like to think that God would not want the experience of producing life to pass unemotionally... I would like to think that God would want us to enjoy our experience while making life. It is just those that take advantage of that "feeling" that I am referring to that, (again in my opinion), disrespect Gods gift.

And you didnt address all of my comments... You are quick to just avoid them... Comments such as those in my second paragraph...

[FreshJive]

I would like to think that God would want us to enjoy our experience while making life.

Obviously you have never witnessed childbirth.

[u2sarajevo]

Originally posted by: mary

Hmmm...I'm a little fuzzy on that. I never got the impression that God was categorically against any and all killing. There was that little "Killing of the First Born" incident, not to mention a few sanctioned wars.

Exodus 11: 1-10, read it. And don't skip over verse 6... I'll print it here for you.

6 And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more.

[mary]

Nope, wrong, try again. The nerve endings in a man's penis serve a functional purpose. I'm going to assume you know what that is.


Try Again. Do not pass go. Do not collect $ 200.


When you satisfactorally answer my first question, I will respond to your additional comments.

Quid Pro Quo.

[u2sarajevo]

Originally posted by: FreshJive
So Dan or U2, at what point does a mass of cells become a human according to God's laws? Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe it says. So, in the real world we must make decisions on how to best govern ourselves. Personally I am against abortion at some point in the gestation period. However, as I am not an expert on human development. I'm not sure what the time period ought to be. I also, think that Scott Peterson ought to be charged with two murders, and that the opposition to this is purely political bullshite.

I don't believe the Bible defines this. However I do know that God created the miracle of creating a child. So in my eyes anything stopping a miracle created by God is wrong.

How could it not be?

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: FreshJive

Obviously you have never witnessed childbirth.

Obviously you have no recollection as to when this pain during childbirth was instilled into women... Think back into your childhood when you were told about Adam and Eve... Think hard and maybe you will understand that the human body was created before the punishment that mankind was given...

Understand?

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: mary
Nope, wrong, try again. The nerve endings in a man's penis serve a functional purpose. I'm going to assume you know what that is.


Try Again. Do not pass go. Do not collect $ 200.


When you satisfactorally answer my first question, I will respond to your additional comments.

Quid Pro Quo.

Read this:

Penis Info

And how about we get off of the topic of sexual gratification and pleasure zones huh???

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: FreshJive
So Dan or U2, at what point does a mass of cells become a human according to God's laws? Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe it says. So, in the real world we must make decisions on how to best govern ourselves. Personally I am against abortion at some point in the gestation period. However, as I am not an expert on human development. I'm not sure what the time period ought to be. I also, think that Scott Peterson ought to be charged with two murders, and that the opposition to this is purely political bullshite.

When do YOU think that mass of cells as you call it obtains a soul???

Because if the exact scientific moment is phase 15 of the triquiotic simester, (add more long stupid scientific words), is when the soul actually enters the small child, then maybe we can talk... I happen to believe that when the miracle of life starts, no matter how small, that life obtains a soul. If that thought is correct, NO MATTER HOW BIG THE CHILD IS, ABORTION IS WRONG!

[mary]

Thanks, I don't think I need to read it. Unlike yourself, I don't believe God frowns upon people having sex for reasons other than reproductive purposes. The correct answer is that the clitoris (and thus the female orgasm) serves no purpose whatsoever in the reproduction process. The absoluely only reason God gave women a clitoris is so we can experience sexual pleasure. Obviously, the scripture says we are to do that only with our husbands, but to imply in anyway that someone is immoral for enjoying sex without any intention to reproduce is completely ludicrous in my opinion. Why? Because God designed us to enjoy sex - whether you're willing to admit that or not.

That obviously is a seperate topic from the pro-chioce issue. And i admit that it may not be completely appropriate for the Lounge area of a Sport forum (sorry to anyone who was offended). But if I'm going to categorically be deemed immoral for not practicing absenance (I can't even spell it, much less do it), I feel an obligation to defend my sexual rights in this world as a woman. For far too long, women have been made to feel guilty for have an active sex life. Well, not here pal.

[Male30Dan]

Mary... Are you married...

If your answer is ANYTHING other than yes, than like it or not, an active sex life is VERY MUCH SO immoral...

[mary]

Now I will respond to your "second" paragraph.

On a personal level, I can't say there's much there I'd disagree with. Our religous beliefs do not seem to be that different.

What's different is that I recognize that I shouldn't be forcing my own religous views on other people. What's different is that I realize I must make the choice that is right for me, and expect that others will want to be given the right to do the same - even if they happen to have a different belief structure.

[mary]

I will tell you if I am married, If you will tell me if you've ever had sex for any other reason than to make babies.

[Male30Dan]

I really do not think that this is something that I should be sharing with a panel of strangers; however, I will gladly continue this conversation in PMs.

[FreshJive]

Obviously you have no recollection as to when this pain during childbirth was instilled into women... Think back into your childhood when you were told about Adam and Eve... Think hard and maybe you will understand that the human body was created before the punishment that mankind was given...

So if the body was created before the punishment, then why did God design the female body to squeeze out a fully formed human through a tiny hole? I suppose humans had no nerve endings and were completely numb to thier environments before Eve ate the apple? I think you tripped up on your own logic here. THINK HARD

[FreshJive]

I don't believe the Bible defines this. However I do know that God created the miracle of creating a child. So in my eyes anything stopping a miracle created by God is wrong.

I can respect that answer. However, I thinkit is a mistake to make a law based on your personal religious beliefs. According to your logic they could outlaw birth control, or put a man in jail for murder if he masterbates.

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: FreshJive

So if the body was created before the punishment, then why did God design the female body to squeeze out a fully formed human through a tiny hole? I suppose humans had no nerve endings and were completely numb to thier environments before Eve ate the apple? I think you tripped up on your own logic here. THINK HARD

Dude you just want to be mean and to try to embarrass me... Sorry, but it wont work... I didnt trip up on any logic... Fact is fact... You think hard... That is the series of events that happened... I have no idea what Gods plan was regarding the feelings that Eve would have experienced during pregnancy had she not ate the apple... But I do know based on several readings that the pain and suffering that humans now experience during their lives was a result of that sin...

Do you not know this?

[u2sarajevo]

Originally posted by: FreshJive

I can respect that answer. However, I thinkit is a mistake to make a law based on your personal religious beliefs. According to your logic they could outlaw birth control, or put a man in jail for murder if he masterbates.

Well I don't think my logic comes to that conclusion. There is a difference in my mind. The difference being if a baby is created through intercourse. The options for avoiding pregnancy allow us to enjoy a gift from God without creating life. I do not believe that God intended sex to be merely for child creation alone.

[FreshJive]

I'm trying to be mean? I find it ironic that you come on here and give a fire and brimstone sermon calling everyone murderers and sinners even suggesting that Mary is a slutty sinner, but you get upset when I find holes in your logic, and accuse me of being a bully? I'm sorry man, but I thought the point of a message board was to debate ideas and you seemed to be confident enough that you could take a bit of criticism. You were the first to tell me to THINK HARD. I don't believe that it was intended as a compliment.

[FreshJive]

Sorry U2 I didn't intend to mean that you would make those logical connections. I meant that it is possible that someone or the government might. I was just making an extreme "slippery slope" analogy. I was always taught in church the same view of sex that you have.

[Male30Dan]

Hahaha...

Suggesting that Mary is a slutty sinner???

I sure hope I didnt say that...

And regarding us going back and forth... Whatever man... I am just going to let this thread die... Its all based on your beliefs vs. my beliefs... Will there really be a winner???

My debate is based on scripture and my religious beliefs... Yours may be the exact same thing...

I say leave it at that...

If you want to continue this, PM me... Mary and I are talking just fine via them!

[Max Power]

I'll get back to this discussion tomorrow when I'm in a better mood. I never discuss religion or politics after a Mavs loss.

[grbh]

HOT SPORTS OPINIONS

Lets just touch on what we have discussed here:

Abortion
Politics
War
Mavs losses
Death Penalty
Original Sin
The Penis
The Clitoris

I think I need to chime in on this, but not untill I've had my morning coffee.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally posted by: grbh
HOT SPORTS OPINIONS

Lets just touch on what we have discussed here:

Abortion
Politics
War
Mavs losses
Death Penalty
Original Sin
The Penis
The Clitoris

I think I need to chime in on this, but not untill I've had my morning coffee.

ahhh, the top 8 reasons D-M.com is better than a cocktail party.

[FreshJive]

Suggesting that Mary is a slutty sinner???

I sure hope I didnt say that...

Mary... Are you married...
If your answer is ANYTHING other than yes, than like it or not, an active sex life is VERY MUCH SO immoral...

I took some liberty with your words for impact, but unless Mary is married or a virgin, I would suggest that you came close to implying as much. If you would rather have PMs about something then don't post your thoughts publicly. I'm sorry if I offended you because I was honestly just killing time and wasn't involved emotionally and apparently you were.

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: FreshJive

I took some liberty with your words for impact, but unless Mary is married or a virgin, I would suggest that you came close to implying as much. If you would rather have PMs about something then don't post your thoughts publicly. I'm sorry if I offended you because I was honestly just killing time and wasn't involved emotionally and apparently you were.

Well I just think that your opinion on my comments is a bit more harsh than my opinon on them, (Im not going to judge someone like that, but I will state facts when I see fit - meaning I will label something immoral if it in FACT is immoral based on christian beliefs)... Mary is a great person, and we had good conversation yesterday afternoon via PMs. Sometimes my words come of a bit more brash than they are intended, which is why you will find me appologizing when I see someone such as yourself offended by them... I am not trying to cause trouble through this thread, but rather help as much as I can, (some might say YEAH, RIGHT, but I am genuinely trying to bring the truth out - based on what God would want anyway).

Regarding if I would want to chat via PMs then dont post publicly, I just dont see how that argument holds water... A discussion can start in an area that you are happy to comment on, but if it becomes too personal to the point that you are uncomftorable or if you just do not want all of your personal details aired out to hundreds of people, you should have the right to request to talk via PMs. This, unlike abortion, is not so black and white in my opinion.

And regarding me being emotionally connected to this topic vs. you not being, you damn right I am... Otherwise I would not try so hard to show everyone on this website that it IS in fact wrong... Any legal, scientific, political, or whatever else type statements you can come at me with will be shot down everytime by simple religious facts... If you or anyone else is not a religious person, you will likely disagree with me quickly, and I guess that will have to be fine. Some of you disagree with me and are as religious, (why am I using the word religious when I detest it so... Religious would imply that there is more than one valid religion, when in fact I believe only in God and Christianity), as the next guy... It is just how I feel... Am I trying to sway those who do not think like me, YES! And that too is why I am trying so hard... Anyway... Sorry if I rubbed you or anyone wrong... This is just a topic that hits me hard, and I feel the need to comment on it as much as possible, no matter how many users bash me after doing so!