(Warning: Indirect electoral issue) Bill criminalizes violent harm to fetus

[Chiwas]

Not everything is bad about Bush, and it seems Kerry this time loses me.

Bill criminalizes violent harm to fetus
Decision expected to affect debate over abortion

The Associated Press
Updated: 6:37 p.m. ET March 25, 2004

WASHINGTON - The Senate voted Thursday to make it a separate crime to harm a fetus during commission of a violent federal crime, a victory for those seeking to expand the legal rights of the unborn.

The 61-38 vote on the Unborn Victims of Violence Act sends the legislation, after a five-year battle in Congress, to President Bush for his signature. The White House said in a statement that it "strongly supports protection for unborn children."

The House passed the bill last last month.

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., said the bill was "powerful because this act is about simple humanity, about simple reality."

But abortion rights lawmakers contended that giving a fetus, from the point of conception, the same legal rights as its mother sets a precedent that could be used in future legal challenges to abortion rights.

Victory for abortion opponents
It was the second big win for social conservatives pushing protections for the unborn following enactment of the so-called partial birth abortion ban last year. That ban is now tied up in the courts.

The Senate cleared the way for passage with a 50-49 vote to defeat an amendment, backed by opponents of the bill, that would have increased penalties but maintained that an attack on a pregnant woman was a single-victim crime.

Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., President Bush's opponent this fall, interrupted his campaign schedule to vote yes on the one-victim amendment. He voted no on final passage.

The bill states that an assailant who attacks a pregnant woman while committing a violent federal crime can be prosecuted for separate offenses against both the woman and her unborn child. The legislation defines an "unborn child" as a child in utero, which it says "means a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb."

"This bill recognizes that there are two victims," said Sen. Mike DeWine, R-Ohio, a chief sponsor. Americans, he said, "intuitively know that there is a victim besides the mother."

Obstacle falls
The key obstacle was an amendment by Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., that would have imposed the same tougher penalties outlined in the DeWine bill but classified any attack on a pregnant woman as a single-victim crime, avoiding the issue of fetal rights and the question of when a person attains personhood.

Feinstein said that by defining when life begins, the bill was "the first step in removing a woman's right to choice, particularly in the early months of a pregnancy before viability." She said it could also chill embryonic stem cell research.

The Senate also defeated an amendment by Sen. Patty Murray, D-Wash., that would have required employers to give unpaid leave, and states to pay unemployment benefits, to women when they or family members are victims of domestic or sexual violence.

Supporters of the bill have named it after Laci Peterson and her unborn child, Conner, victims in a highly publicized murder case in California. California, one of 29 states with an unborn victims law, is trying Peterson's husband, Scott, on double murder charges.

Laci Peterson's stepfather, Ron Grantski, said at a Capitol Hill news conference that he and Laci's mother had received several hundred thousand sympathy cards and "they all mourned our loss of Laci and Conner — not Laci and the fetus."

The Senate bill covers 68 federal crimes of violence, such as drug-related shootings, violence at an international airport, terrorist attacks, crimes on a military base and threats against a witness in a federal proceeding.

Legal abortions excluded
It would specifically exclude prosecution of legally performed abortions — a fact supporters cite in arguing that the bill would not undermine the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision affirming a woman's right to end a pregnancy.

"The criminals who commit these crimes are not committing abortions," said Douglas Johnson, legislative director of the National Right to Life Committee. "They are depriving these unborn children of the right to life. It's a separate issue related to the right to life."

Groups on both sides of the abortion issue lobbied hard on the legislation.

The Christian Coalition of America said votes for either the Murray or Feinstein amendments would be regarded as negative votes on its annual congressional scorecard of lawmakers.

On the other side, NARAL Pro-Choice America delivered more than 130,000 petitions to senators urging defeat of the bill.

"This would be the first time in federal law that an embryo or fetus is recognized as a separate and distinct person under the law, separate from the woman," said NARAL President Kate Michelman. "Much of this is preparing for the day the Supreme Court has a majority that will overrule Roe v. Wade.

© 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[Murphy3]

pro choice ='s legalized murder

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: Murphy3
pro choice ='s legalized murder

No, "Murder" is taking the life of a person.

[jacktruth]

Originally posted by: Mavdog

No, "Murder" is taking the life of a person.

If it's not a person, what is it?

[Murphy3]

Humans are only those that can vote.

[sturm und drang]

I'll tell you what it is: a fetus. Not a person.

This is, to me, incredibly troubling. What a woman chooses to do with her body is her choice.

The majority of women in this country are pro-choice. We take Roe v. Wade for granted; I can't tell you how many women I've spoken with who are just incredulous that it could ever be overturned. I hope this proves to be a wake up call to all women. If Bush stays in office, we are very much at risk of losing the right to decide what happens to our own bodies.

[Murphy3]

Women should not have that right. No person should have the right to terminate another life.

[sturm und drang]

First of all, it's a fetus, not a person. It is inside a woman and cannot live autonomously from her.

Secondly, really? No one can terminate a life? How do you feel about the death penalty?

[jacktruth]

Originally posted by: sturm und drang
First of all, it's a fetus, not a person. It is inside a woman and cannot live autonomously from her.

Secondly, really? No one can terminate a life? How do you feel about the death penalty?

What's a fetus?

[Murphy3]

Strongly against the death penalty.

Yes, I know that it is a 'fetus'. So, killing a fetus is ok? It's nothing more than semantics. Regardless of what the law is or what the definition is, there must be some inherent sense of right and wrong. Abortion is murder.

Just how inhumane is it to attack and viciously kill a poor, unborn fetus that cannot protect itself? What's next? Are we going to start knocking off anyone over the age of 85 in name of children's rights? Heaven knows that children shouldn't have to take care of their parents. It's not like we expect men and women to take care of their fetuses. They're even allowed to viciously murder them. Hell, if the parents can't be expected to not kill their fetuses, how can anyone realistically expect children to care for their old and decrepid parents?

[Murphy3]

If you don't want them around, just put 'em down.

[sturm und drang]

No, it is quite a bit more than semantics. A fetus is not a human, is not an autonomous being. It is part of a woman, cannot survive without her, is 100% dependent on her body, her organs, her food, her oxygen for survival. It's part of a woman, and therefore that decision should be hers.

I shudder to think what will happen if Roe v. Wade is overturned. Anyone who thinks abortion will just go away is simply deluding themselves. It'll just be a return to back-alley abortions and coat hangers. My God. Look at what's going on in Mexico, for example. Though abortion is illegal, at least several-hundred-thousand abortions - some experts estimate more than 1 million - are performed in that country every year. And because so many of those are clandestine and dangerous, abortion remains the fourth-highest cause of death among Mexican women.

[southern_sweets]

Originally posted by: sturm und drang
I'll tell you what it is: a fetus. Not a person.

This is, to me, incredibly troubling. What a woman chooses to do with her body is her choice.

The majority of women in this country are pro-choice. We take Roe v. Wade for granted; I can't tell you how many women I've spoken with who are just incredulous that it could ever be overturned. I hope this proves to be a wake up call to all women. If Bush stays in office, we are very much at risk of losing the right to decide what happens to our own bodies.

This is very scary. A "free" country forcing women to give birth against their will. Not to mention, many right to life groups also strongly oppose contraception. If the US defines an embryo, from the moment of conception, as a ;legal person contraceptive methods such as the IUD would be illegal, and even the legality of birth control pills could be challenged. Imagine having to go to another state or country to obtain birth controls pills or getting your IUD in Mexico (Sorry Chiwas) or on the black market.

It just amazes me that the republicans are so concerned for fetuses and embryos, but have consistently for decades voted against programs offering prenatal care and health care for children of low income families. I guess they aren't concerned for the "unborn child" after birth.

[sturm und drang]

Sweets, you're dead on.

My mother, who is the director for a non-profit organization here in Dallas that helps homeless families get back on their feet, is always talking about this. "What is the government going to do with all these unwanted children? We aren't doing anything at all for the ones we already have."

My favorite is the pro-life LDS commercial from years back that featured a blonde, sun-dappled baby with rosy cheeks with its adoptive family. Everyone was white, upper class, picket fence, happy as could be. The underlying message was, "Why have an abortion when you could bring a child into the world and put them in a situation like this?" I thought my mom was going to lose it. She was like, "What about the millions upon millions of abandoned, drug-addicted minority children that would all the sudden be on the government's doorstep?"

As a society, we completely ignore the children we do have. Let's bring on millions upon millions more! Perfect!

[Murphy3]

I cannot believe so many people attempt to justify murder.
And please do not group me in with the Republicans. It just so happens that I'm closer to being a Democrat than a Republican. However, that still doesn't mean that I believe that murdering unborn children is an ok thing to do.

It's not about politics. It's about having some sense of what right and wrong is. It's also pretty sad whenever a morally bankrupt SOB like myself has to preach on what is and is not inherently right or wrong.

[jacktruth]

This is very scary. A "free" country forcing women to give birth against their will.

Or a country that believes in life, liberty, and the pursuit of hapiness. Unless your life gets in the way of somebody else's pursuit of hapiness.

Not to mention, many right to life groups also strongly oppose contraception. If the US defines an embryo, from the moment of conception, as a ;legal person contraceptive methods such as the IUD would be illegal, and even the legality of birth control pills could be challenged. Imagine having to go to another state or country to obtain birth controls pills or getting your IUD in Mexico (Sorry Chiwas) or on the black market.

Any many pro-choice groups strongly oppose regulating abortion clinics for safety. They also oppose things like waiting periods (a requirements some states even have for marriage), required disclosure of abortion risks and procedures (something required for every other medical procedure), and required discussion of options. There are a lot of women who have abortions and regret it later. Do you think planned parenthood is doing anything to change that?

[jacktruth]

Originally posted by: sturm und drang
Sweets, you're dead on.

My mother, who is the director for a non-profit organization here in Dallas that helps homeless families get back on their feet, is always talking about this. "What is the government going to do with all these unwanted children? We aren't doing anything at all for the ones we already have."

My favorite is the pro-life LDS commercial from years back that featured a blonde, sun-dappled baby with rosy cheeks with its adoptive family. Everyone was white, upper class, picket fence, happy as could be. The underlying message was, "Why have an abortion when you could bring a child into the world and put them in a situation like this?" I thought my mom was going to lose it. She was like, "What about the millions upon millions of abandoned, drug-addicted minority children that would all the sudden be on the government's doorstep?"

As a society, we completely ignore the children we do have. Let's bring on millions upon millions more! Perfect!

I see your point, but be honest here. Do you think that this world would be a better place if they were all dead?

[Male30Dan]

You know, I am not like most people on this site... I have very strong political beliefs as well as very strong values... Of course the beliefs that I speak of are MY beliefs, and are not factual, but only the laws of the land if you will that I live by.

I am going to step out of character for just a second here and give you ladies a piece of my mind... Im not saying I am right, Im not saying you are wrong... But I am saying that my opinion and yours are WAY THE HELL OFF for many many good, (in my opinion), reasons!!!

First off...

1) If you are not prepared to have a baby, practice abstinence!!! You see, God made your bodies such that when sexual activity occurs, and semen excretes from the penis into the vagina, the wonderful circle of life is started... UNDERSTAND THAT FULLY BEFORE HAVING SEX...

2) If after understanding this, you still insist on having sex WHILE STILL NOT WANTING TO HAVE A BABY, use every means of protection you can... Use condoms, birth control, shots, get your tubes tied, (after all, those of you that want to kill a FETUS as you call it, should not have the option to have children again), WHATEVER it takes...

3) If after taking every means necessary to avoid pregnancy, you still somehow manage to get pregnant, (while knowing all the while the risk you were taking), how about you try to follow the plan God has for the world and not destroy the life God has so graciously allowed you to make. You see, there are many, many families out there that are begging and praying for a child to come into their life. If you insist on not keeping the life that you chose to make during your sin, how about you just manage keeping the little tot alive long enough for responsible people to take him off of your hands...

The bottom line is, you ladies DO have the right to do whatever you wish with your body; however, as the law gets more involved, (rightfully so of course), you will pay for your crime against humanity... Call the child a fetus, call it mush, call it whatever you wish if it lets your twisted mind make sense of murdering a child, but soon doing so will mean that you will have to face the consequences like any other murderer...

Only God can decide if someone lives or dies! Anyone else that does it is a murderer... No matter if it is through the death penalty, through war, abortion, or through any other means... Sometimes there are no other options, (regarding matters such as war); however, abortion does NOT fall under this category.

Again, this is just my opinion, but as you can see, I feel pretty strongly about it!

Just think about what you are saying when you actually proclaim to have the power to take and give life as you see fit!!! Think about it!

[mary]

1) If you are not prepared to have a baby, practice abstinence!!!

You know, every once in a while I read some really stupid shit on this board. And every once in awhile I think to myself, "This is the dumbest shit I've ever read". But low and behold, everytime I make that proclomation, someone comes along and tops it.

You know...I believe if I continue this post in my current state, I will probably warrant a banning. So maybe I should cool off for a minute and come back later.

[Jbrjo]

Yeah! What Male22Dan said! (just wanted ya'll to know that there are some pro-life women on the board too, even though I can't argue as eloquently as you guys)

[Male30Dan]

You may think what you will and you may call my opinion your version of "the dumbest shit you've ever read"; however, the fact remains quite simple. So simple in fact that I would think even you would understand it...

GOD DID NOT GIVE YOU SEXUAL REPRODUCTIVE ORGANS TO HAVE CASUAL SEX. THEY WERE GIVEN TO YOU TO REPRODUCE! SO IF YOU USE THEM IN ANY WAY OTHER THAN THEY WERE INTENDED TO BE USED FOR, BE RESPONSIBLE AND SUPPORT THE CHILD YOU CREATED AS OPPOSED TO FLUSHING HIM/HER DOWN THE TOILET AND SAYING "OH IT DOESNT COUNT, IT WAS JUST A FETUS"

Bullshit...

If you and thousands of other men and women supporting abortion can come to terms with this, the world would be a much better place!

[Male30Dan]

Thanks Jbrjo...

And please dont think I am stereotyping all ladies into one large group and claiming them all to be pro-DEATH!

It is just that some people really get on my bad side and I have to let it out!!! I guess I am still fuming from reading so many atheists' comments regarding the Passion of the Christ!!!

[mary]

Male22Dan, you can not speak for me, you can not speak for my vagina or my uterus, and I'm quite certain you can not speak for God. So whatever decision I and my vagina make, are between myself and God - they are not between myself, God, and Male22Dan.

Regardless of what I think of abortion, regardless of whether I would have one or not, regardless of whether I think a fetus is a person or not, I THANK GOD I live in a country where that decision is left up to me. The consequences of such decisions will be left for me to deal with - with MY GOD - not some misguided stranger who believes himself to have knowledge of God's judgement.

[mary]

And by the way, since you do know the intentions of God and his judgement, can you please tell me something. If we "women" (I noticed you didn't say the same about men) are only meant to have sex for reproductive reasons, and that is the ONLY reason why we have sexual organs - can you tell me why is it that women have clitorises?? I'm quite certain I don't need mine to get pregnant. Oversite? Punishment for Original Sin?

Ok, I really am walking away now.

[FreshJive]

The only purpose of sex among humans is to produce children? Obviously, in humans it is meant to serve other purposes, because statistically it generally takes a high number of occurrences to produce an offspring. In other animals fertilization is alot more common.

[Male30Dan]

First of all, I am not SPEAKING for God, I am just reiterating simple christian beliefs and values that you obviously do not have! And I am also not speaking for you, your vagina, uterus, or any other internal organ you would like to spell out. What I am doing is openly criticizing a belief, which I DO have the right to do... I can tell you what I think and there is not a DAMN thing you can do about it but tell me what you think... That is the purpose of a forum...

Regarding your decision being between you and God, that is soon to be false. Soon it will be between you, God, and the Texas courts... So regarding that whole "THANK GOD I live in a country where that decision is left up to me" crap, you will eventually not be able to lay that thank on the lap of God... And for that matter, do you think God wants to be thanked for you having the legal right to kill his children?

I think I am going to have to make the same comment you made regarding having to cool off... I could go on and on and on and on... You will never and COULD NEVER win an argument when the entire basis of the argument supports M-U-R-D-E-R!!! If saying that "ANY DECISION I MAKE IS BETWEEN ME AND GOD" lets you paraphrase "If I want to kill a little child living inside of me, its between God and me" more power to you... But soon, you, (assuming you would do such a thing), and everyone else that does it, will be locked up such that they cant do it again!!!

And by the way Mary... Don't you see... We all have knowledge of God's judgement, as well as his wishes and his will...

It is called the BIBLE...

How can you have any knowledge of such teachings and then ask such a statement as "some misguided stranger who BELIEVES HIMSELF TO HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF GODS JUDGEMENT"

Do I really need to start quoting Revalations for you on a Dallas Mavericks message board?

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: Male22Dan
1) If you are not prepared to have a baby, practice abstinence!!! You see, God made your bodies such that when sexual activity occurs, and semen excretes from the penis into the vagina, the wonderful circle of life is started... UNDERSTAND THAT FULLY BEFORE HAVING SEX...

It takes two to tango. How many guys are willing to practice abstinence?

2) If after understanding this, you still insist on having sex WHILE STILL NOT WANTING TO HAVE A BABY, use every means of protection you can... Use condoms, birth control, shots, get your tubes tied, (after all, those of you that want to kill a FETUS as you call it, should not have the option to have children again), WHATEVER it takes...

So it is not OK to kill a fetus which is a potential human but it >IS< OK to prevent a pregancy? Preventing a pregancy is the same thing as killing a fetus - they are both potential humans who were prevented from being brought into the world.

3) If after taking every means necessary to avoid pregnancy, you still somehow manage to get pregnant, (while knowing all the while the risk you were taking), how about you try to follow the plan God has for the world and not destroy the life God has so graciously allowed you to make.

God's plan was Be fruitful and multiply. Mankind has done that to excess. Why else do you think the Chinese have moved to plan B?

You see, there are many, many families out there that are begging and praying for a child to come into their life. If you insist on not keeping the life that you chose to make during your sin, how about you just manage keeping the little tot alive long enough for responsible people to take him off of your hands...

Horsecrap. Unless the baby is white, chances are the child will never have a true home.

The bottom line is, you ladies DO have the right to do whatever you wish with your body; however, as the law gets more involved, (rightfully so of course), you will pay for your crime against humanity... Call the child a fetus, call it mush, call it whatever you wish if it lets your twisted mind make sense of murdering a child, but soon doing so will mean that you will have to face the consequences like any other murderer...

More discussion and less rhetoric please.

Only God can decide if someone lives or dies! Anyone else that does it is a murderer... No matter if it is through the death penalty, through war, abortion, or through any other means... Sometimes there are no other options, (regarding matters such as war); however, abortion does NOT fall under this category.

Again, this is just my opinion, but as you can see, I feel pretty strongly about it!

Just think about what you are saying when you actually proclaim to have the power to take and give life as you see fit!!! Think about it!

I guess our soldiers in WW2 were a bunch of murderers? Don't try to weasel out here. If you truly believe that only God can decide whether someone lives or dies then there are NO exceptions. NONE! Otherwise your argument is crap. If mankind can decide in some occasions whether someone needs to live or die then there is precedent for every decision and mankind gets to make EVERY decision.

[Murphy3]

Then perhaps white females should not be allowed the have abortions

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: mary
And by the way, since you do know the intentions of God and his judgement, can you please tell me something. If we "women" (I noticed you didn't say the same about men) are only meant to have sex for reproductive reasons, and that is the ONLY reason why we have sexual organs - can you tell me why is it that women have clitorises?? I'm quite certain I don't need mine to get pregnant. Oversite? Punishment for Original Sin?

Ok, I really am walking away now.

Did you really just ask me that???

Complete moron!!!

[mary]

Regarding your decision being between you and God, that is soon to be false. Soon it will be between you, God, and the Texas courts... So regarding that whole "THANK GOD I live in a country where that decision is left up to me" crap, you will eventually not be able to lay that thank on the lap of God... And for that matter, do you think God wants to be thanked for you having the legal right to kill his children?

What are you implying? How could you possibly know what I will be able to lay at the lap of God? Do you think those that are pro-choice are going to be immediately stricken from the Book of Life? Well, do you? Do you happen to have a xerox of it?

No, Male22Dan, we DO NOT have knowledge of God's judgement - that is completely arrogant and in my opinion insulting to God. What we do have, are our beliefs - beliefs which are formed by our environment, our biology, our culture, or and our backgrounds, and yes for some of us, our Bible.

[mary]

Originally posted by: Male22Dan

Did you really just ask me that???

Complete moron!!!

Nice cop out. Yes I did ask you that. As far as I know, the clitoris is the only organ whose sole purpose is to provide pleasure. If it were removed, it wouldn't inhibit my ability to get pregnant. So why do I have it?

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: Max Power

It takes two to tango. How many guys are willing to practice abstinence?

Look man, bottom line is I dont care how many are willing to... That is what is SUPPOSE to be done if Gods will is followed!!!

So it is not OK to kill a fetus which is a potential human but it >IS< OK to prevent a pregancy? Preventing a pregancy is the same thing as killing a fetus - they are both potential humans who were prevented from being brought into the world.

The thought behind this comment is stupid... You cant kill something that was never made... You are comparing sperm to a fetus... If what you said is the case, then when you TRY to have a baby, and the ONE sperm makes it into the woman with all of the other smerm dying, that would essentially be killing thousands of babies... Ignorant!

God's plan was Be fruitful and multiply. Mankind has done that to excess. Why else do you think the Chinese have moved to plan B?

Oh I see, so since the world is heavily populated we should taint the way God wishes us to live? Whos decision is that to make?

Horsecrap. Unless the baby is white, chances are the child will never have a true home.

Sad sad statement there... What this says is you believe there to be no african american families, mexican families, etc., waiting on adoption precedings... Again, please leave the ignorant statements alone! Why do you insist on setting aside this time to humiliate yourself in public!

More discussion and less rhetoric please.

We can discuss all you wish...

I guess our soldiers in WW2 were a bunch of murderers? Don't try to weasel out here. If you truly believe that only God can decide whether someone lives or dies then there are NO exceptions. NONE! Otherwise your argument is crap. If mankind can decide in some occasions whether someone needs to live or die then there is precedent for every decision and mankind gets to make EVERY decision.

You damn right they were... I am not weaseling out of ANYTHING... I think war is murder, plain and simple. It might be necessary murder to prevent us from being murdered, (hence me saying that earlier), but it is murder nonetheless... War is basically in most cases self defense. In other cases, its one country flexing their muscle and just killing people...

[Male30Dan]

Originally posted by: mary

What are you implying? How could you possibly know what I will be able to lay at the lap of God? Do you think those that are pro-choice are going to be immediately stricken from the Book of Life? Well, do you? Do you happen to have a xerox of it?

No, Male22Dan, we DO NOT have knowledge of God's judgement - that is completely arrogant and in my opinion insulting to God. What we do have, are our beliefs - beliefs which are formed by our environment, our biology, our culture, or and our backgrounds, and yes for some of us, our Bible.

I never claimed to have the book of life... God forgives Mary, so if you are sincere in your request for forgiveness, I believe anything to be forgiven. So dont put words in my mouth...

But honestly, answer my question with your OPINION! Do you think God would want to be thanked for you being given the right to murder his children... And as you said earlier... Nice cop out to avoid answering that question!

[Max Power]

Originally posted by: Male22Dan
You damn right they were... I am not weaseling out of ANYTHING... I think war is murder, plain and simple. It might be necessary murder to prevent us from being murdered, (hence me saying that earlier), but it is murder nonetheless... War is basically in most cases self defense. In other cases, its one country flexing their muscle and just killing people...

War is murder? So who was wrong, the GIs who killed to keep the Jews from being murdered or the Nazis who did the murdering? Are you saying that if you had the ability to go back in time and kill Hitler that you wouldn't do it to save MILLIONS of lives?

You are a complete hypocrite. You accept the safety and security offered by the deaths of millions of soldiers but then you don't honor their sacrifice. YOU are the moron.

[Murphy3]

Max, they should have been arrested so that they could stand trial among their peers.

[Male30Dan]

I am so glad I hit refresh, or I would have said ALMOST the exact same thing you did Murph...

[Male30Dan]

And I didnt know that me complaining about war was me ACCEPTING THE SECURITY that war provides me!!!

[mary]

I think God would liked to be thanked for what he ultimately gives us - and what he ultimately gives us is a choice. In just about every Biblical tale I've ever read, God always decides to give people a choice.

And in case you've forgotten, Jesus was a liberal.

[u2sarajevo]

Originally posted by: mary
I think God would liked to be thanked for what he ultimately gives us - and what he ultimately gives us is a choice. In just about every Biblical tale I've ever read, God always decides to give people a choice.

And in case you've forgotten, Jesus was a liberal.

The choice God gives you is to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior. You have the choice to accept him, or not. You also have the choice to obey by his laws or to not. And quite clearly killing was not one of the things he was for.

And I don't think that Jesus being labeled 'liberal' would still hold true today.

[FreshJive]

Originally posted by: Murphy3
Max, they should have been arrested so that they could stand trial among their peers.

American soldiers were supposed to arrest people who were shooting at them?

Dan, where are these athiests on the Passion thread? I was quite dissapointed to not find any.