Statistics...what are the deeper issues?

[92bDad]

https://www.dallascounty.org/dcwante...endersList.jsp


I noticed this list posted from a local sports radio show.

This is the top 50 "Wanted" for arrest due to some type of violations, along with the amounts of money they owe.

The list breaks dows as follows:

45 = Male
5 = Female

42 = African American
4 = Hispanic
4 = White

What are the variables that contribute to such a drastic difference?

What is different in the various groups that influence the demographic?

Is it a courts problem, is it a community problem...what are the different influences that end up giving such a result?

Basically what is it that has caused these 50 indidividuals to make choices on their own to wind up on this list, and how can we as a society help not only these individuals, but change the elements that caused to get into this position?

This is the FIRST time, I have ever looked at something like this, I would be curious to see where I can find other lists and see what the statistics tell us.

[dude1394]

It's the man putting 'em down.

[alexamenos]

somebody wrote a book a few years back about how black people commit most crimes....it was called Krime and the Kolor of Kriminals or something like that....hmmmm.....

here's the thread...link

anyhoo, I think the phenomena is kind of a definitional thing. When black people want to rob and kill they form gangs, when white people want to rob and kill they form governments. Governments define what is crime and what is not, accordingly gangs commit more crimes than governments by definition.

[Mavdog]

it's always interesting to read what posters write and catch a glimpse of how they frame things. sometimes it's thought provoking and insightful, and sometimes it's not. "black people...form gangs,...white people form governments" certainly is in the later category.

the higher incidence of crimes committed by blacks as a % of the overall pop is a reflection of the social factors prevalent, principally economic ones. lower income/wealth, lack of property ownership resulting in more transitory nature, breakdown of the family units and lastly difference in prosecution by the state (a black defendant is more likely to be convicted than a white defendant, crack cocaine which is mostly found in black urban areas is treated differently than powdered cocaine which is found in white surbuban areas).

heres a link to data on offenders
recidivism is also higher among black americans.

[Justin Credible]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

it's always interesting to read what posters write and catch a glimpse of how they frame things. sometimes it's thought provoking and insightful, and sometimes it's not. "black people...form gangs,...white people form governments" certainly is in the later category.

the higher incidence of crimes committed by blacks as a % of the overall pop is a reflection of the social factors prevalent, principally economic ones. lower income/wealth, lack of property ownership resulting in more transitory nature, breakdown of the family units and lastly difference in prosecution by the state (a black defendant is more likely to be convicted than a white defendant, crack cocaine which is mostly found in black urban areas is treated differently than powdered cocaine which is found in white surbuban areas).

heres a link to data on offenders
recidivism is also higher among black americans.

Question: How much of this is caused by the people living in those areas?

I strongly believe that a majority of the people in those areas have convinced themselves that the world is out to get them so they create their own problems and then blame everyone around it, which creates a vicious circle of regress from any type of potential success.

Are they somewhat held back now? Yes, but because of an image that they created and tout proudly. "Thug Life" as defined by Blacks (I refuse to say "African American" as, by definition, it makes no sense for 99.8% of black people in this country) from poor neighborhoods doesn't fit into any type of functioning society in this world, much less a competition/money hungry country. Someone in that position has a choice: Give in to their surroundings or actually attempt to live a productive life. Many more times than not they choose the first rather than the latter, which is why those parts of town never improve, rather they continually get worse until they spread.

Signed,

Cracker from the ghetto

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

it's always interesting to read what posters write and catch a glimpse of how they frame things. sometimes it's thought provoking and insightful, and sometimes it's not. "black people...form gangs,...white people form governments" certainly is in the later category.

And I think you're viewing the disparity in crimes committed by blacks in a very prejudicial manner.

Many crimes committed by white folks aren't part of these statistics -- the statistics lie, in other words, and you can't draw meaningful inferences from statistics that lie. This, for instance, is not a crime because it was white man in a blue polyester uniform body slamming the chick into pavement.

Anyhoo...i understand that you think darkies committ more crimes because of 'socio-economic' things (it ain't their skin color, it's their culture! never heard that one before...), but I think if you counted a few more crimes committed by white folks, the disparity might not be so huge.

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

And I think you're viewing the disparity in crimes committed by blacks in a very prejudicial manner.

Many crimes committed by white folks aren't part of these statistics -- the statistics lie, in other words, and you can't draw meaningful inferences from statistics that lie. This, for instance, is not a crime because it was white man in a blue polyester uniform body slamming the chick into pavement.

Anyhoo...i understand that you think darkies committ more crimes because of 'socio-economic' things (it ain't their skin color, it's their culture! never heard that one before...), but I think if you counted a few more crimes committed by white folks, the disparity might not be so huge.

so you believe that police and others in position of power who abuse their power aren't prosecuted for such behavior?
sure they do. happens all the time.

the facts are easy to see and understand. people who have more to lose commit less crimes than people who don't have income/possessions.

that is true for any ethnic group. it isn't "the culture" (which ironically is what you seem to say in your first "crime nd the color of criminals" post).

[alexamenos]

no....

I think you're just looking at this through really prejudiced eyes -- the idea that black people commit more crimes is something you accept as fact....I don't, obviously.

Suggesting that people in positions of power are routinely prosecuted for crimes kind of misses the point of being in a position of power, and suggesting that having more money leads one to commit fewer crimes is so silly that I can hardly respond.

(then again, for all I know Colombian drug lords commonly retire after amassing a few hundred thousand in savings and spend their days in their underwear playing the stock market and Texas Hold 'em on the internet)

[rmacomic]

I don't really know what it means, but I once lived in a mostly black neighborhood, (and by mostly black I mean if you took a satellite photo of me, I would look like a tic-tac in a sack of charcoal). I got pulled over at least once a week. Every time I would be questioned on why I was in this area. I assumed it was suspicious for a white kid to be in this area unless he was up to no good. I was once even pulled over in my own driveway, before I ever started the car.

I guess my point is that there may be a racial bias when it comes to law enforcement.

Look, I'm not saying all cops are racist, just the white ones.

[Justin Credible]

Second question: Is it better for our society or is it in fact detrimental to our society to ignore certain things just because of the color of the skin of the person that is involved? Is that not contributing more to racism than it is retracting from it?

I just personally think that the people in this country need to get off of the "PC" kick and recognize that all people aren't, in fact, the same. Each culture is different and has its ups and downs. There's wealthy white people, and there's white trash. There's wealthy black people, and there's black trash. The difference seems to be between white and black "trash" is that the white trash seems to complain to no end and just get intoxicated until they finally end up either accepting that they've wasted their own lives or they do something horrible. Black "trash," on the other hand, doesn't only accept that way of life but they seem to hold it as being elite to the rest of any color society. They don't try to be something that they're not (white trash is a Folex watch), rather they hold up their "from the ghetto" mentality high in the air and call anyone that disagrees with it a racist.

Again, my original question remains.. How much of this is caused by the people living in those areas? Is this a result of residual racism condemning someone to a bad life, or is it a result of reverse racism and too much pride in a "culture" that should be shunned?

*Please understand that I absolutely love the black community. I don't know if any of you have ever sat and spent time with an old black man from the "ghetto" but they are the greatest people in the world. That being said I spent about 2 years working alongside nothing but black folk from Stop 6 and grew to love them like a family, a family that I felt bad for because they seem to never be able to break through the wall around them and instead gave into the hood mentality.

Each and every opportunity in the world may not be presented to each race equally, but that doesn't mean that each and every person doesn't have the chance to excel in their life beyond what some recognize.

[Mavdog]

after wading through the near intolerable level of arrogance contained in your post, the following comes to mind...

first, the reason these scofflaws are on the "most wanted" list is not because they have committed heinous crimes, but just the opposite...they have committed crimes of such minor, insignifigant levels that the authorities don't want to commit the resources to go and find them. if they had committed violent crimes they would have been found and thrown into jail.

notwithstanding the fact that these are indeed criminals, not victims of unfair and inequitable application of the law and their offenses reveal such. is wrong way driving not a crime and an act that endangers the rest of us who travel on the streets? absolutely, and it is indeed class blind. what about assault? check. speeding in a school zone? if my kids go to school where this occured the perpertrator is indeed a criminal, and a dangerous one at that, no matter which ethnicity and what economic class they are in. do you have an idea of the problems associated with being hit by a driver of a car who does not have insurance? to those who have, the person who flaunts this requirement of driving is indeed violating the law and no, this is not a law that is applied inequitably across class or racial lines.

fyi dart does go "from preston along turtle creek", it's just doen't have any park cities people riding on the bus but those who provide services to the park cities homes. and just who is hurt by the fare evasion of those listed? it isn't the people who live in the park cities, it's those who ride the dart bus daily and have to put up with buses that aren't as clean as they could be due to dart not receiving all the fares they should be getting because of people such as those on the list stealing from dart.

the answer to your theoretical date rape question is answered by another question: who is more likely to report and prosecute their being raped, a rich white girl from highland park or a 38 year old unemployed black chick from fair park?

yes, your assertions of "IRS agent acting at the behest of an angry mob of registered voters" being analogous to someone "robbing a liquor store" reveals a deep rooted anarchic perspective which quite frankly reveals a lack of "thinking skills".

[alexamenos]

Mavie, the gist, that is the central theme, of my earlier post (and all other posts in this thread, for that matter) was:

the more general point is that it's pretty easy to pick and choose the crimes in question in such a way as to disproportionately include one segment of society while excluding others. IOW, 'What are the deeper issues?' The deeper issue ain't that deep, it's just definitional.

Could you kindly highlight for me the part of your response where you acknowledge, address and rebut or agree with this position?

Originally Posted by Mavdog

after wading through the near intolerable level of arrogance contained in your post, the following comes to mind...

first, the reason these scofflaws are on the "most wanted" list is not because they have committed heinous crimes, but just the opposite...they have committed crimes of such minor, insignifigant levels that the authorities don't want to commit the resources to go and find them. if they had committed violent crimes they would have been found and thrown into jail.

notwithstanding the fact that these are indeed criminals, not victims of unfair and inequitable application of the law and their offenses reveal such. is wrong way driving not a crime and an act that endangers the rest of us who travel on the streets? absolutely, and it is indeed class blind. what about assault? check. speeding in a school zone? if my kids go to school where this occured the perpertrator is indeed a criminal, and a dangerous one at that, no matter which ethnicity and what economic class they are in. do you have an idea of the problems associated with being hit by a driver of a car who does not have insurance? to those who have, the person who flaunts this requirement of driving is indeed violating the law and no, this is not a law that is applied inequitably across class or racial lines.

fyi dart does go "from preston along turtle creek", it's just doen't have any park cities people riding on the bus but those who provide services to the park cities homes. and just who is hurt by the fare evasion of those listed? it isn't the people who live in the park cities, it's those who ride the dart bus daily and have to put up with buses that aren't as clean as they could be due to dart not receiving all the fares they should be getting because of people such as those on the list stealing from dart.

the answer to your theoretical date rape question is answered by another question: who is more likely to report and prosecute their being raped, a rich white girl from highland park or a 38 year old unemployed black chick from fair park?

Mavdog shouts, "Eek!!! Anarchist!!!" ....

yes, your assertions of "IRS agent acting at the behest of an angry mob of registered voters" being analogous to someone "robbing a liquor store" reveals a deep rooted anarchic perspective which quite frankly reveals a lack of "thinking skills".

Perhaps rather than calling me a heretic, you or chum might try to make a rational, cogent argument against the natural law perspective that holding a gun to someone's head and taking their shit is wrong.

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

Mavie, the gist, that is the central theme, of my earlier post (and all other posts in this thread, for that matter) was:
Could you kindly highlight for me the part of your response where you acknowledge, address and rebut or agree with this position?

easy, these acts are not subject to being merely "definitial", there isn't a situation of if the offenses are or are not truly crimes, as pointed out it's really easy to see that these folks (as wellas the rest of the convicted criminals in the stats supplied) are just plain criminals who have acted violently to other citizens, or are guilty of stealing from other citizens or endangered other citizens by way of their actions.

these are not people whio have evaded taxes, or resisted the draft, or other civil disobedience offenses that could in any way be categorized as based on moral principles.

iow these are just plain thugs who want to disregard and shoot the finger at the moral covenant that exists between civilized people.

Perhaps rather than calling me a heretic, you or chum might try to make a rational, cogent argument against the natural law perspective that holding a gun to someone's head and taking their shit is wrong.

no need to, your attempting to argue a theoretical approach to a simple issue of individuals who act in opposition to civilized norms. they didn't hold a gun and take shit, as I pointed out for many of their offenses they took actions which placed other citizens in harm's way.

[Underdog]

Haha - I love how you guys have turned a rich/poor issue into a black/white issue...

(keep dancing, puppets!)

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Haha - I love how you guys have turned a rich/poor issue into a black/white issue...

(keep dancing, puppets!)

45 male
5 female

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

45 male
5 female

47 - 20/20 vision
3 - corrective vision

(obviously people with glasses are much less likely to commit crimes...)


42 - Christian
8 - Non-Christian

(that could be reflective of the national population, but if you twist your mind enough, you might be able to convince yourself that it's because Christians have a higher propensity toward crime than non-Christians...)


50 - Carbon-based
0 - Nitrogen-based

(seriously - what was your point again??? I thought the purpose of this thread was to prove racial stereotypes through statistics...)



Here's a neat statistic that's true 99.9% of the time:

50 - Have-nots
0 - Haves

(because it ain't a crime for he who writes the rules!)

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by Underdog

(seriously - what was your point again??? I thought the purpose of this thread was to prove racial stereotypes through statistics...)

[/QUOTE]

I don't think men are poorer than women, and I think that there are usually about as many men in a race as women.

If you want to change the subject from race v. income, then why don't you explain the difference between the number of men on the list v. the number of women? Is it because your rich/poor distinction doesn't do much?

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

I don't think men are poorer than women, and I think that there are usually about as many men in a race as women.

If you want to change the subject from race v. income, then why don't you explain the difference between the number of men on the list v. the number of women? Is it because your rich/poor distinction doesn't do much?

You're looking at the numbers backwards... What difference does it make if 45 are men and 5 are women if all 50 are poor?

If I'm mugging you in the park, it's not because of my gender or race - it's because I don't have any money...

(is that so difficult to understand?)

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Haha - I love how you guys have turned a rich/poor issue into a black/white issue...

(keep dancing, puppets!)

I think I said pretty early on that the crime statistics as such are often skewed by the "Golden Rule", therefore much caution must be taken when making inferences from crime stats.

Does that seem like an unreasonable suggestion?

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

I think I said pretty early on that the crime statistics as such are often skewed by the "Golden Rule", therefore much caution must be taken when making inferences from crime stats.

Does that seem like an unreasonable suggestion?

Doesn't sound unreasonable to me - I'd say that pretty much puts this thread to rest...

(it should have the first time you said it too...)

[dalmations202]

With all this bickering said.

IMO. the deeper issue is acceptance (much forced) and the breakdown of the family structure.

Women usually think with their hearts and men logically (except when it comes to women). Mothers accept what young men do because they love them, where fathers usually don't accept these kinds of actions.

Back in the days of slavery, women were literally bred, and men were sold off as animals, the family structure was broken down badly.

Add to this men have gone off to war, and women to work -- women were emasculated and didn't need the man in the family structure.

Acceptance of unlawfulness, and even justifying it because of past wrongs has led to much criminal activity, and little peer pressure to stop it. Add to it the class system that is in the US (and around the world), and that the "easy" way to get into the next class is to do illegal things, and it is not just justified, it is thought to be a legitimate way.

Although there are criminals of every known race, I think that much is made of the numbers of Blacks because of how they are educated. Some feel like they as a race have been wronged, and they justify wrong for wrong. Most are taught from day one that they have had a bad background, and feel like they have to fight to get an even deal all their lives. Let's face it, most whites are not taught to have to fight against everyone and everything from the day they are born. I am also not saying that there isn't some justification because of the racism that has plagued the US.

I guess I am saying that, IMO, the breakdown of the family unit is the deepest issue, and that the way to resolve the issue is through better education and a shunning of people when they do wrong. It doesn't take a village to raise a child. It takes a mother and a father dedicated to making sure that the child is reared properly, and them instilling in the child a sense of right and wrong.


I understand what Alex is saying, and he has a point, but it is more than just what the law is. It is the acceptance of breaking any laws.

[Mavdog]

there is no debate that our criminal justice system has incidence of inequality based on the defendant's economic and/or social class. folks charged with a crime who are financially capable of hiring the best defense attorney will likely not face time in stripe city.

that being said, the times when the city's elite were immune from being prosecuted for illegal conduct is pretty much history. thank the fourth estate who are like a bunch of piranhas after the story and not letting it go away.

as for why people make the turn to being criminal, that's not an easy answer to find. breakdown in family certainly has an influence, as does the criminal's belief that they have little to lose. add to that the times when the criminal actually believes they can get away with the crime and the crime of passion, that basket includes most of the reasons.

[92bDad]

To the best of my understanding, one's race or gender have no bearing as to one's propensity to commit a crime.

Yet, they can be used as a demographic to measure those who have committed crimes.

From this information, we can go into those categories to gather data behind what has brought the individual criminals within those demographics to commit those crimes.

The hope is to find some other common ground or factors that perhaps we as a society can do something about.

We are born the way we are...our race is predetermined, our gender is predetermined...in other words, it's not something that can be changed. (I know, some people can have surgeries...but that is not the point)

Some have pointed out economic differences as playing a part...so do we throw money at the problem and will they stop committing the crime?

What happens when the money runs out?

What about building up and teaching individuals...is it simply about teaching skills, or is there room to develop "Character" so that one can succeed in life, either rich or poor?

We've also read bits about the breakup of the family unit. How do we promote the value of family and foster a way for family to be built up in all communities?

Who can lead these messages within these communities?

Using the Race and Gender distinguishing criteria, who would the various demographics listen to and work to emulate in their life?

What happens when a "Leader" a "Role Model" and "Authority" within the various demographics is a poor example? How does this effect the actions of the group who follows that person?

How can someone from an alternate demographic be a positive influence and ultimately breakdown the stereotypes to have a lowered criminal count, if not ultimately crime free society?

How do we all respect one anothers differences, while finding a common ground of right/wrong that would allow us all to be grounded in a common reality?

[Flacolaco]

I bet which of the four completed their completely free of charge (in a manner of speaking) public education would be more interesting than the gender or the race.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

I bet which of the four completed their completely free of charge (in a manner of speaking) public education would be more interesting than the gender or the race.

I'd say education & wealth are definitely closer to the source than gender & race (after all, ignorance & greed can be found at the root of most of the world's problems...)

[chumdawg]

Perhaps rather than calling me a heretic, you or chum might try to make a rational, cogent argument against the natural law perspective that holding a gun to someone's head and taking their shit is wrong.

Of course holding a gun to someone's head and taking their shit is wrong. That is not, however, necessarily what governments do, as you assert. Or rather, if they take your shit then they also give you something back in trade for it. You don't like it, I understand, but it's not at all the same thing.

If a policeman were found to be abusing his authority, I suppose you would endorse getting rid of the police force entirely as the solution to the problem. Then again, if the world operated your way, I guess we wouldn't have a police force to begin with. Because somebody would have to pay for that, and legally we couldn't compel the people to.

[alexamenos]

it's a nice try and I appreciate the fact that rather than simply making an ad hominem attack (ie, you're wrong because you're an anarchist) you are actually attempting to make a case.

Originally Posted by chumdawg

if they take your shit then they also give you something back in trade for it. You don't like it, I understand, but it's not at all the same thing.

umm...it is too the same thing.

If you screw a woman against her will and then give her a hundred bucks, does that mean she's a prostitute and that you haven't raped her?

If I hold a gun to your head and take your wallet, it doesn't make it ok as long as I give you something you don't want in return. It's the coercive nature of the act that makes it wrong -- it's the subjugation of your inalienable right to decide for yourself what to do with the product of your own labor that makes it wrong.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

If I hold a gun to your head and take your wallet, it doesn't make it ok as long as I give you something you don't want in return. It's the coercive nature of the act that makes it wrong -- it's the subjugation of your inalienable right to decide for yourself what to do with the product of your own labor that makes it wrong.

Two things. One, I don't think we are talking, on the whole, about things taxpayers don't want. Of course there are some items the taxpayers don't want, and if you want to restrict the discussion to those items, then that's another story. But then, how do we figure out what those are? One person might think another library or another fire station is something undesirable, while his neighbor may be all for it. But again, I think we are primarily talking about things that we DO want as a society. You know, the things we have that third world countries don't.

Two, I think your viewpoint is too narrow when you talk about "the product of your own labor." For a handful of people, maybe. If you live on a farm and sustain yourself with your own land, maybe. But the great majority of us make a living that is supported by far, far more than the product of our own labor. Rather, it's a product of our own labor and the infrastructure that gives rise to the very opportunity for that labor to occur. The guy who works at the auto factory is going to have a hard time figuring out what to do with the product of his own labor once the factory closes and the job vanishes.

I just feel that it's unrealistic to think that we would, or even could, enjoy the same quality of life we do now if everyone kept all their own income and we abolished government altogether.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Of course there are some items the taxpayers don't want, and if you want to restrict the discussion to those items, then that's another story. But then, how do we figure out what those are?

It's actually very, very easy to figure out what these things are.

I just feel that it's unrealistic to think that we would, or even could, enjoy the same quality of life we do now if everyone kept all their own income and we abolished government altogether.

I've never advocated either of these things.

[dalmations202]

What is the difference in a Freedom Fighter, and a Terrorist? which side of conflict you are on.

What is the difference in paying protection money to the government or protection money to the mob? which side of the conflict you are on.

and in the immortal words of Monty Python -- it's good to be the King.

How about -- he who has the gold, makes the rules.

To the victor belong the spoils................???