Caron Butler´s injury Thread

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Well...

that sucks.

edit: Butler/Roddy for Kevin Martin?

Hell yes, and throw in a pick

[ribosoma]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

What a crappy ass couple of weeks this is turning out to be...

No doubt. At least with Dirk we knew he would be back. This is just a gut punch. Caron was playing well and I was really happy for him. I hope he winds up in a good place next season and that he has a chance to show what he can do. He will be missed in the locker room, as well.

[EricaLubarsky]

he'll be in the lockerroom as soon as he's recovered from surgery and he'll be there until he's traded. He just wont be on the court.

[MavsFTR]

Bummer. Good luck, Caron. Get well soon.

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Hell yes, and throw in a pick

Hell, I'd even throw in Haywood if they could give us a crappy contract back to make it work. It's win this year or bust IMO.

[sefant77]

[rabbitproof]

Prince or Jamison would be my favorites.

Martin - I assume would be too expensive.
RIP/Iggy - too expensive for my taste but could be talked into with a good deal.
Jackson/Wallace - ok options but question marks.

Sorry, Caron. You played tough, both sides of the court, blended in well and was an all around good guy.

[fluid.forty.one]

I'd like to point out that I have a feeling this would have never happened if Caron was chewing straws that fateful night.

[fluid.forty.one]

also, thank god Caron is an expiring.

[LonghornDub]

I'll take responsibility for this. I laughed and celebrated when Manu went out with that season-ending ankle injury in 2009. Karma is a fickle b*tch.

[j0Shi]

Best wishes to Caron. Sad thing, but now its time to settle a bit. Lets see how the team will develop without him and then make a move. Won't be good at all to rush into a trade right now.

[ribosoma]

I hate to cite rumors, but there are many out of Memphis regarding O.J. Mayo. What do you guys think about him? A deal involving Butler would require some additional parts, but Mayo is unhappy coming off the bench, and the Mavs have both talent and future cap space to deal.

[GermanDunk]

Shit!

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I'll take responsibility for this. I laughed and celebrated when Manu went out with that season-ending ankle injury in 2009. Karma is a fickle b*tch.

dammit LHD

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Just curious if they trade him are they allowed to re-sign him once his contract ends with said team?

Yep, we can. But his Bird Rights are owned by the team in which his contract expired. If all things equal, I think it will come down to the Mavs or Heat. Mavs because there is unfinished business here, and there really is not space for another 3 on the Heat.

Now the question is on our side, will he get back to the normal Caron, or will he be the one legged version. How much do you sign him for to figure that out.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Hell, I'd even throw in Haywood if they could give us a crappy contract back to make it work. It's win this year or bust IMO.

They don't have many bad contracts. You might could throw in Haywood for B Miller but I doubt it. It looks like they have the potential to reload in a serious way depending on what route they go with Yao.

[dalger]

Man, I was hoping for better news after reading his tweet and seeing the picture. A full tear to put him out for the entire season is annoying news. I hope he can come back next season and still be a decent basketball player.

It's unfortunate to see an all around good guy like Caron go down, especially when he's playing on a fairly high level in such a crucial year for this franchise. I honestly believed that we could make a run at a championship with our team. Until last week, we were one of the very best teams in the league, even without Roddy.

A trade seems obligatory now. There's no way we can achieve our goals without another scorer who can strengthen our forward rotation at the same time. Jackson, Wallace, Iggy, Prince, Maggette--hopefully one of those players or someone with comparable skills will be available.

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

They don't have many bad contracts. You might could throw in Haywood for B Miller but I doubt it. It looks like they have the potential to reload in a serious way depending on what route they go with Yao.

Well what I was thinking is that Haywood gives them some size they lost with Yao and Roddy gives them youth (time) to rebuild. Butler gives them some savings.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by ribosoma

I hate to cite rumors, but there are many out of Memphis regarding O.J. Mayo. What do you guys think about him? A deal involving Butler would require some additional parts, but Mayo is unhappy coming off the bench, and the Mavs have both talent and future cap space to deal.

Could work, then again, there's a glut at the 2 guard spot and very little at the 3-4 spots. If you could get him for expirings and a pick, I'd do it, but then I'd have to get on the phone and sell one of my 2's for a 3-4.

[BGMaverick9]

just a heads up, MMB will have a full breakdown of the situation, including comments from the players, coaches and front office...look for that VERY late tonight or early tomorrow.

[sefant77]

Trade his contract and bring him back next summer on a MLE deal. He wont get more than MLE offers anyway after this injury.

He was in his contract year, he lost a hell of money too.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Well...

that sucks.

edit: Butler/Roddy for Kevin Martin?

I'd never, ever do this trade. Martin can do two thing on a basketball court. Shoot the three, and fall after the contact. Seriously, he does everything else horrible. He's a bad ball handler, bad passer, horrible, i mean absolutely horrible defender, a miserable rebounder, and contrary to the popular belief, a below average penetrator.

The reason why he shoots that many free throws, is because he falls instantly after the contact, because the guy weighs 185 pounds. He's unable to finish around the rim, can't take over games, as i said, horrible defensively, and just not a winning basketball player, period. He's one of best at putting up empty numbers. I wouldn't ever give up for him a prospect like Roddy.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

I'd never, ever do this trade. Martin can do two thing on a basketball court. Shoot the three, and fall after the contact. Seriously, he does everything else horrible. He's a bad ball handler, bad passer, horrible, i mean absolutely horrible defender, a miserable rebounder, and contrary to the popular belief, a below average penetrator.

The reason why he shoots that many free throws, is because he falls instantly after the contact, because the guy weighs 185 pounds. He's unable to finish around the rim, can't take over games, as i said, horrible defensively, and just not a winning basketball player, period. He's one of best at putting up empty numbers. I wouldn't ever give up for him a prospect like Roddy.

Muhhhhhhhh....

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

I'd never, ever do this trade. Martin can do two thing on a basketball court. Shoot the three, and fall after the contact. Seriously, he does everything else horrible. He's a bad ball handler, bad passer, horrible, i mean absolutely horrible defender, a miserable rebounder, and contrary to the popular belief, a below average penetrator.

The reason why he shoots that many free throws, is because he falls instantly after the contact, because the guy weighs 185 pounds. He's unable to finish around the rim, can't take over games, as i said, horrible defensively, and just not a winning basketball player, period. He's one of best at putting up empty numbers. I wouldn't ever give up for him a prospect like Roddy.

Fully disagree.

Also there's this.
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/1/3...y-kevin-martin

[dalger]

What we might not disagree on, however, is that we don't really need another guard with Dirk and Marion being our only quality forwards. For that reason only I'd prefer some of the aforementioned small forwards over Martin.

[rabbitproof]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Fully disagree.

Also there's this.
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/1/3...y-kevin-martin

Wow, Martin is a beast but Dirk is a TITAN.

TS% is a good metric for measuring a player's efficiency but doesn't account for the difficulty in getting a player the ball. For example, Dirk has to get an entry pass while Martin probably gets it at the top of the key so I imagine plays run for Martin run at near equal efficiency to Dirk. I'm only speculating but I think that needs to be taken into account when we look at things like TS% (where Chandler is absurd but the lob completion rates may be pretty risky).

That said, I'd pass on Martin given the Mavs' needs at forward and his trade costs.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Fully disagree.

Also there's this.
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/1/3...y-kevin-martin

I've read it yesterday, it's a good piece, still, what i wrote. I know he is, was, and will be an efficient scorer. Still, he can't finish around the rim (you can look it up the percentages, or ask Kings, Houston fans), he can't pass, has below average handles for a guard, and he's a horrible defender. He gets to the line because he has a very quick first step, and flies after the contact like he stepped on a mine. He can be an impact player under the right circumstances, i just don't see him as a good fit. On the other hand, Roddy's penetration could be very useful for us, even if we ignore his long time potential.

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

I've read it yesterday, it's a good piece, still, what i wrote. I know he is, was, and will be an efficient scorer. Still, he can't finish around the rim (you can look it up the percentages, or ask Kings, Houston fans), he can't pass, has below average handles for a guard, and he's a horrible defender. He gets to the line because he has a very quick first step, and flies after the contact like he stepped on a mine. He can be an impact player under the right circumstances, i just don't see him as a good fit. On the other hand, Roddy's penetration could be very useful for us, even if we ignore his long time potential.

There is absolutely no way Roddy outplays Kevin Martin this season (and probably ever) and, with the lockout looming, this year is all that matters.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

I've read it yesterday, it's a good piece, still, what i wrote. I know he is, was, and will be an efficient scorer. Still, he can't finish around the rim (you can look it up the percentages, or ask Kings, Houston fans), he can't pass, has below average handles for a guard, and he's a horrible defender. He gets to the line because he has a very quick first step, and flies after the contact like he stepped on a mine. He can be an impact player under the right circumstances, i just don't see him as a good fit. On the other hand, Roddy's penetration could be very useful for us, even if we ignore his long time potential.

Idk Kidd, Stevenson, Marion, Chandler are good to great defenders so if you are gonna have a team that has a guy who isn't a strong defender on the wing but can produce as the "2nd option" on offense, this may be the one! We play quite a bit of zone defense too.

On the other end it would be great to have that high % shooter who is quick enough to make things happen and or get to the FT line. I doubt his handles are worse than Carons.

It really boils down to what we'd have to give up to determine if it's worth it.

(All this said perhaps it would almost take a miracle to get anyone in here by trade deadline and have it gel in time for championship success.)

[MaVs 41 BaLler]

Is there any possibility he could be back sometime in the playoffs?

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

There is absolutely no way Roddy outplays Kevin Martin this season (and probably ever) and, with the lockout looming, this year is all that matters.

Respectfully disagree on the "probably ever" part. While right now, obviously, you have to consider Martin a better player, still is he really a good fit? Do we really need another jumpshooter? He gets to the line, but he's still a jumpshooter, and does literally nothing else besides scoring. Also, if you evaluate them as prospects, it's really a no contest. Roddy has elite tools. I remember quite a few poster wouldn't want to trade him for anybody other than Wade, or Lebron. Did he become a worse player since? He's just injured.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Idk Kidd, Stevenson, Marion, Chandler are good to great defenders so if you are gonna have a team that has a guy who isn't a strong defender on the wing but can produce as the "2nd option" on offense, this may be the one! We play quite a bit of zone defense too.

On the other end it would be great to have that high % shooter who is quick enough to make things happen and or get to the FT line. I doubt his handles are worse than Carons.

It really boils down to what we'd have to give up to determine if it's worth it.

(All this said perhaps it would almost take a miracle to get anyone in here by trade deadline and have it gel in time for championship success.)

Why are we comparing his handles to Caron? He's a SG, Butler is a small forward, who helps in the rebounding department, and a little on defense. Martin does neither, in fact, he's a liability in both category. I agree, that Houston wouldn't do the trade, thankfully. Roddy's potential is clearly much higher than his trade value, that's one more reason to not trade him.

[Popeye]

Could you trade Caron and sign him back for the MLE this year (assuming he gets cut)? For example, have him sign a 4 year/20MM deal with the rest of this year pro-rated. That way they could keep their full MLE for next year, plus you have Caron on the bench as part of the team. Just a thought...

[grndmstr_c]

I'm not a big fan of selling out to get Martin, but the niggling over the manner in which he accumulates field goal makes or falls down when he gets fouled is silly at best. He's one of the most efficient high-volume scorers in the NBA. Despise his defense, injury history, or lack of development as a play-maker for his teammates (a fact that sets Booby apart from Martin on the potential metric)...but you're painting yourself into a hopeless and untenable corner if you're trying to argue that he's anything other than all-NBA caliber when it comes to putting points on the board.

[jcm28]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

also, thank god Caron is an expiring.

This. Also thank God he doesn't have a no-trade clause.

Lets trade to the sixers for Iggy please.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Dunno if this has been posted but more bad news....

"Complicating the Mavericks' efforts to replace Caron Butler is the fact that the forward's season-ending injury occurred too late for them to apply for the same disabled player exception Portland and Miami received recently for season-ending injuries to Greg Oden and Udonis Haslem, respectively.

It was initially believed that the Mavericks could apply for an injury exception worth $5.28 million -- half of Butler's $10.6 million salary -- to sign or trade for one player within 45 days.

But because Butler's injury occurred after Nov. 30, league rules stipulate that Dallas would only be eligible to receive an injury exception if Butler was deemed be an independent doctor to be unable to play next season as well as this season.

Butler, of course, isn't even under contract with the Mavericks for next season. He becomes a free agent July 1."

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/maver...jury-exception

[EricaLubarsky]

The worst part about it-- we had no trolls while we were beating every team in the league. Now that Dirk and Butler are out and Marion is maimed, we are getting more and more doomsayers, sh#t talkers and flatout trolls posting daily.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I'm not a big fan of selling out to get Martin, but the niggling over the manner in which he accumulates field goal makes or falls down when he gets fouled is silly at best. He's one of the most efficient high-volume scorers in the NBA. Despise his defense, injury history, or lack of development as a play-maker for his teammates (a fact that sets Booby apart from Martin on the potential metric)...but you're painting yourself into a hopeless and untenable corner if you're trying to argue that he's anything other than all-NBA caliber when it comes to putting points on the board.

I didn't really deny, nor argued the fact that he's a very good scorer. He's nothing else though, also, he's not a forward. I also don't think he's gonna get those calls in the playoffs, or will be as efficient. He played 6 freakin' games in the playoffs. I understand the "now or never" argument, still, i wouldn't trade an elite prospect to get Martin here. Roddy is an elite project player. Nobody has that kind of combination of speed, athleticism, and shooting touch amongst young players in the NBA. Crazy potential. He should have went in the top 5 last year draft. He's miles and leaps better than Flynn. He's much better than Devin was at that age, who also went nr. 5. Do we really wanna trade him?

[Rhylan]

Originally Posted by Popeye

Could you trade Caron and sign him back for the MLE this year (assuming he gets cut)? For example, have him sign a 4 year/20MM deal with the rest of this year pro-rated. That way they could keep their full MLE for next year, plus you have Caron on the bench as part of the team. Just a thought...

If he was waived by the other team and he clears waivers, yes, after a 30 day waiting period. He would definitely clear waivers because of the injury.

I would also like to see this happen, so he could do his rehab here and maybe be a part of the team down the road if it made sense in subsequent years. I'm coining the term Butlerrang before Fisher starts using it and selling t-shirts.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Rhylan

If he was waived by the other team and he clears waivers, yes, after a 30 day waiting period. He would definitely clear waivers because of the injury.

I would also like to see this happen, so he could do his rehab here and maybe be a part of the team down the road if it made sense in subsequent years. I'm coining the term Butlerrang before Fisher starts using it and selling t-shirts.

I would think most teams that acquired him would keep him in order to keep his bird rights for next season, either to re-sign him or to open up sign and trade possibilities.