Vince Carter rumor - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

madape · 07-13-2004, 08:22 AM

This article deserves it's own thread in the Mavericks section:

From the New York Daily News this morning:

Trade winds are swirling around Kurt

Kurt Thomas is rumored to be on his way to Cleveland, Golden State or Dallas.

Kurt Thomas returned to New York late Sunday to have the cast removed from his surgically repaired right hand. He's now wondering if his visit to the doctor's office will represent his last official act as a member of the Knicks.

The trade rumors that have shadowed Thomas throughout his six seasons with the Knicks are hotter than ever. One scenario would have Thomas heading to Cleveland for center Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

A more complicated deal would have Thomas as part of a four-team trade that would center around Vince Carter moving from Toronto to Dallas.

The Knicks' side of the deal would include multiple players, with Thomas ending up in Dallas or Golden State and Shandon Anderson going to Toronto. The Knicks would be getting Antoine Walker from Dallas and Erick Dampier from Golden State. (NOTE: Yeah, right.)

"You hear a lot of rumors so maybe something is going to happen," Thomas said yesterday. "I have no idea if I'm going to be here. I just know that when training camp starts, wherever I am, I'm going to be in great shape."

Knicks president Isiah Thomas is working on several deals, all of which seem to include trading away veteran players who either did not like working for Thomas or playing with Stephon Marbury or both. Those players include Kurt Thomas, Anderson, Dikembe Mutombo and Othella Harrington.

Toronto and Dallas are recruiting several teams in an effort to deal Carter to the Mavs. The Knicks can only get involved if the trade for Chicago's Jamal Crawford falls through, which is entirely possible.

The Knicks are offering a package of Anderson, Harrington, Frank Williams, Cezary Trybanski and Moochie Norris for Crawford, Eddie Robinson and Jerome Williams.

Chicago is insisting on Dikembe Mutombo instead of Norris and the stalemate is threatening to kill the deal. The Knicks may attempt to sign Crawford to an offer sheet but there are several factors working against them. Crawford is a restricted free agent and the Bulls have the right to match any offer.

The Knicks are over the salary cap, so the maximum they can offer Crawford is $40 million over six years. In the proposed sign-and-trade deal involving the Knicks and Bulls, Crawford would receive $60 million over six years. In other words, Crawford essentially would be agreeing to a $20 million pay cut.

Isiah Thomas, though, is committed to adding more scorers to his roster, as evidenced by his interest in Crawford and Walker. Kurt Thomas, who had surgery on his right pinkie last month, is obvious trade bait because he has a reasonable contract and has been a consistent performer the last three years.

"My finger feels great," he said. "I've never been better."

Originally published on July 13, 2004

mavsfanforever · 07-13-2004, 08:25 AM

If vince carter ends up in dallas, I would call this the worst trade by our FO.

aexchange · 07-13-2004, 08:27 AM

air canada would be a great addition to our athletic high flying team. we'd go from being one of the least athletic teams to one of the most.

HexNBA · 07-13-2004, 08:32 AM

"99pct of deals that you read about were never proposed, and 99pct of the deals that are proposed never happen."

SaltwaterChaffy · 07-13-2004, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: mavsfanforever
If vince carter ends up in dallas, I would call this the worst trade by our FO.

Are you serious? Whether or not people want to admit it, when healthy, Vince is still a tier 2 superstar in my opinion. He can put up tons of points, and is a great slasher. If we can get him for AW, I'd be ecstatic.

The thing I'm more worried about is our stockpiling of swingmen. Daniels (PG in our offense, still a swingman in reality) Stack, Fin, Howard, and now VC? Lot's of tradeable assets I guess, but isn't this the same problem we had last year with forwards?

Dooby · 07-13-2004, 08:39 AM

Since we started a thread here, I am copying what I wrote from the Trade forum:

Why on earth are you people remotely interested in this? When I heard this on the radio, I could taste the vomit in my mouth. Is there a player in the league who'se "bang to hype" ration is more out of whack than Vince Carter?

Mark my words, Vince Carter on this team would be an unmitigated disaster. He plays no D. He barely rebounds. Fewer assists and more turnovers a game than Walker. He's a bigger lockerroom cancer than Walker. Yes, he can go to the basket, but he likes his jumpshot too. His contract is just as long as Dirk's; it goes through freaking 2008!

One training camp with Don Nelson he'll be jacking up threes.

The only solace I take is this is from a NY paper. This would be terrible. Terrible. Terrible.

I hate Walker, but I'd almost rather keep Walker.

Drbio · 07-13-2004, 08:42 AM

I have to agree wiht Dooby and mff. Carter gives us nothing more than Stack or others give us. At least Stack attempts to play defense as well. I'd hate to see Walker leveraged for Carter when other option almost certainly are available.

Max Power · 07-13-2004, 08:49 AM

The only way I see wanting Carter is for trade bait - I thought he would be ideal in a Shaq trade. Otherwise I want nothing from him. Stack is better for our team than Carter.

doggnutz · 07-13-2004, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: SaltwaterChaffy

Quote:

Originally posted by: mavsfanforever
If vince carter ends up in dallas, I would call this the worst trade by our FO.

Are you serious? Whether or not people want to admit it, when healthy, Vince is still a tier 2 superstar in my opinion. He can put up tons of points, and is a great slasher. If we can get him for AW, I'd be ecstatic.

The thing I'm more worried about is our stockpiling of swingmen. Daniels (PG in our offense, still a swingman in reality) Stack, Fin, Howard, and now VC? Lot's of tradeable assets I guess, but isn't this the same problem we had last year with forwards?

VC would be a great addition IMO offensively as well as being marketable. If I'm not mistaken, he missed most of the season one year and still was voted to the All Star Game. VC when healthy as somebody metioned is unstoppable. Put talent like DIRK, Daniels, D.J., Harris, Finely and etc around him and I think you would see a more complete Vince than ever. With this pay roll, Cuban needs a highly marketable person. I think Vince helps us more than he hurts us. But again it's just a rumor...

kg_veteran · 07-13-2004, 08:54 AM

As I mentioned in the Trade Forum, we already have Carter's twin at half the price. Let's just keep Stackhouse and get a big guy, eh?

madape · 07-13-2004, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Dooby
Since we started a thread here, I am copying what I wrote from the Trade forum:

Why on earth are you people remotely interested in this? When I heard this on the radio, I could taste the vomit in my mouth. Is there a player in the league who'se "bang to hype" ration is more out of whack than Vince Carter?

Mark my words, Vince Carter on this team would be an unmitigated disaster. He plays no D. He barely rebounds. Fewer assists and more turnovers a game than Walker. He's a bigger lockerroom cancer than Walker. Yes, he can go to the basket, but he likes his jumpshot too. His contract is just as long as Dirk's; it goes through freaking 2008!

One training camp with Don Nelson he'll be jacking up threes.

The only solace I take is this is from a NY paper. This would be terrible. Terrible. Terrible.

I hate Walker, but I'd almost rather keep Walker.

I think his "bang to hype" ratio is a little out of whack too. But I think you've got it backwards. Carter's market value has never been lower. We are talking about trading Antoine Walker for him. How low a price is that? Carter is still a superstar-type of player. There may be only ten players in the league that can take over games the way he can. He's almost an unstoppable offensive force.

I don't think there is any question our talent level would take a quantum leap forward if we can swap Walker for Carter. I know our energy and athleticism would be unparalelled. When was the last time you could say that about a Maverick team? The challenge would then be modifying the roster to take advantage of all that talent. If the Mavericks make this trade, and I think they would be crazy not to, they still have a lot of work to do. Obviously, we would still need to address the low post position. Fortunately for the Mavs, we'd still have a number of tradable pieces to use to fortify the low post. Stackhouse is likely out the door. Laettner is probably gone, too. Howard is too valuable a player to play backup to Finley, so he's a likely candidate for any deal involving a center. I think it is realistic that we could package some players in a trade to get a guy like Ilgauskas or Dampier. If that happens, all the complaining about rebounding and defense is just a load of hot air. Maybe even a load of hot poop. We'd have improved our size, added shotblocking and rebounding, made ourselves younger and more athletic, AND added one of the baddest-ass muther-f*ckers in the NBA to play along side Dirk and Finley. What's not to like about that?

mavsfanforever · 07-13-2004, 08:59 AM

I am serious but I would rather have Allen Iverson than Vince. AI plays defense and can get to the free throw line quite often. I think VC and AI have similar FG%.

madape · 07-13-2004, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: mavsfanforever
I am serious but I would rather have Allen Iverson than Vince. AI plays defense and can get to the free throw line quite often. I think VC and AI have similar FG%.

I think I'm with you there. Iverson is a former MVP and possibly of the best players to ever play his position. But last time I checked, he wasn't rumored to be traded to Dallas for ANTOINE FREAKING WALKER.

Dooby · 07-13-2004, 09:07 AM

What is not to like? He is Vince F'ing Carter. He'd be one more name to add to the pool of "Whose the GM of the Mavericks?" game. The guy has been trying to tell the Raptors front office what to do for years. He moans and complains. His stats, if you haven't noticed, have been going in the wrong direction.

If we needed a shooting guard, I'd be all for it. But the fact is we are stuck at SG for the next four years already with Finley. This isn't going to make the team better, it is going to turn last year's logjam at PF into this year's logjam at SG/SF.

Some Guy · 07-13-2004, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: madape

<u>From the New York Daily News this morning:</u>

I think that was the key phrase.

kg_veteran · 07-13-2004, 09:13 AM

Here's the trade to push this team over the top.

Dallas trades: PF Dirk Nowitzki (21.8 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 2.7 apg in 37.9 minutes)
PF Antoine Walker (14.0 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 4.5 apg in 34.6 minutes)
Dallas receives: SF Vince Carter (22.5 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 4.8 apg in 38.1 minutes)
SG Jalen Rose (15.5 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 5.0 apg in 37.9 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +2.2 ppg, -8.2 rpg, and +2.6 apg.

Toronto trades: SF Vince Carter (22.5 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 4.8 apg in 38.1 minutes)
SG Jalen Rose (15.5 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 5.0 apg in 37.9 minutes)
Toronto receives: PF Dirk Nowitzki (21.8 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 2.7 apg in 77 games)
PF Antoine Walker (14.0 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 4.5 apg in 82 games)
Change in team outlook: -2.2 ppg, +8.2 rpg, and -2.6 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

Why Toronto does it: Well, I guess they want to get better and stuff.

Why Dallas does it: With this trade, the Mavs will have cornered the market on swingmen. With this rotation, how can we lose?

C - Najera, Fortson
PF - Howard, Finley
SF - Carter, Rose
SG - Stackhouse, Daniels
PG - Harris, A. Johnson

Looks good to me.

doggnutz · 07-13-2004, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: madape

Quote:

Originally posted by: mavsfanforever
I am serious but I would rather have Allen Iverson than Vince. AI plays defense and can get to the free throw line quite often. I think VC and AI have similar FG%.

I think I'm with you there. Iverson is a former MVP and possibly of the best players to ever play his position. But last time I checked, he wasn't rumored to be traded to Dallas for ANTOINE FREAKING WALKER.

If Carter works out look at all thew upside, we already know Walker didn't work. If they are willing to give Carter up for Walker, man why not. VC is still a better trading piece than Walker with his 1yr left contract I believe. I'm not saying get Carter and we are set, we still can address the low post need. If you are able to turn Stackhouse, Walker, Chrsitine, Fortson, Delk, and maybe Flores or Najera into VC and Dampier or VC and Thomas man that sounds good to me.

KG the deal with Stack, he is already opening his mouth about coming of the bench. I like Stackhouse but if you can get an idea that he may be a problem already I rather take a chance on Vince. When games were close last season we didn't have a go to guy in the clutch. Can Dirk be that guy, no sure if he has the mentality, we know Vince can.

kg_veteran · 07-13-2004, 09:21 AM

Alright, I'll be serious. I would be okay with these two transactions:

Trade No. 1:

Dallas trades: Jerry Stackhouse and Eddie Najera
New York trades: Kurt Thomas and Dikembe Mutombo

Trade No. 2:

Toronto trades: Vince Carter
Dallas trades: Antoine Walker

I can't really say I'm sure why either New York or Toronto would do those deals, but here's what the Mavs roster would look like:

C - Mutombo, Bradley, Laettner, Benga, Pavel
PF - Nowitzki, Thomas, Fortson
SF - Carter, Howard, TAW
SG - Finley, Delk
PG - Daniels, Harris, Steffansson

Eman · 07-13-2004, 09:29 AM

The Vince Carter trade would be an amazing deal for the Mavericks!!!

Imagine a starting lineup of

Bradley, Mbenga
Dirk
Carter
Finley/Daniels
Harris

We would have a big three again, (a bigger 3), Dirk and Vince are both SUPERSTARS, top ten. But Vince is not afraid to go out and take over a game.

Also, Vince shoots free throws at better than 80% and 3pointers at 38.3%, so he is a much better shooter than Walker.

If we could trade Stack/howard/laettner for a serviceable center, we'd be in the thick of the hunt to play shaq in the finals.

Dooby · 07-13-2004, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: doggnutz

If Carter works out look at all thew upside, we already know Walker didn't work. If they are willing to give Carter up for Walker, man why not. VC is still a better trading piece than Walker with his 1yr left contract I believe. I'm not saying get Carter and we are set, we still can address the low post need. If you are able to turn Stackhouse, Walker, Chrsitine, Fortson, Delk, and maybe Flores or Najera into VC and Dampier or VC and Thomas man that sounds good to me.

KG the deal with Stack, he is already opening his mouth about coming of the bench. I like Stackhouse but if you can get an idea that he may be a problem already I rather take a chance on Vince. When games were close last season we didn't have a go to guy in the clutch. Can Dirk be that guy, no sure if he has the mentality, we know Vince can.

1. If Vince Carter were a better trading piece, then Toronto would be getting more for him.

2. Stack would still be here.

3. When has VC ever shown that he can be the guy in the clutch?

3a. We didn't have a guy to go to in the clutch because our head coach can't draw up a friggin' play "in the clutch". I've been arguing this point for more than 3 years, don't start debating it now.

As long as Dirk is the best player on the team, I don't want to trade for a guy that is too dense to figure that out. Walker thought he was the man; and Vince will to. Walker was wrong; Vince will be too.

Eman · 07-13-2004, 09:33 AM

"If you're acquiring Carter, Finley AND Stackhouse need to be on the way out. "

Why? Finley at shooting guard and Vince at small forward makes sense to me.

doggnutz · 07-13-2004, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Eman
The Vince Carter trade would be an amazing deal for the Mavericks!!!

Imagine a starting lineup of

Bradley, Mbenga
Dirk
Carter
Finley/Daniels
Harris

We would have a big three again, (a bigger 3), Dirk and Vince are both SUPERSTARS, top ten. But Vince is not afraid to go out and take over a game.

Also, Vince shoots free throws at better than 80% and 3pointers at 38.3%, so he is a much better shooter than Walker.

If we could trade Stack/howard/laettner for a serviceable center, we'd be in the thick of the hunt to play shaq in the finals.

That's what I was thinking, but I would want Dampier for those guys. Bring Walker off the bench, where I think he could be successful. If not trade him doing the All Star Break when his stock would be even higher. I would rather keep howard though.

withoutmalice · 07-13-2004, 09:40 AM

V. Carter would be a terrible acquisition because:

a. he's injury-prone - how many full seasons has he played over his career? = 1 out of 6 seasons

b. he's turned into a one-dimensional jump-shooter because of (a) - he rarely ever penetrates into the lane anymore to dunk or do a layup through traffic because he's afraid someone will knock him down or that he'll roll his ankle when he lands

c. he's a primadonna with a huge ego - he's accustomed to being THE guy in TOR so how would he take being just one of the guys on a team with a ton of depth and scorers?

d. he can't play defense - his +/- would be about 0 if such stats were kept - he might block a few shots but because of his injury problems he's afraid of physical contact and would thus be a terrible fit at SF, a position that requires a player to often work in the paint and help with rebounding and doubling and blocking out the other team's post players

e. he's got a huge contract

Believe me, I'm in Canada so I know what's going with the Raptors and V. Carter, enough to know that TOR fans want to get rid of Carter more than they want to keep him because they no longer think he's worthy of being deemed a "franchise player". TOR will be very very lucky if they can get rid of him because really he's untradeable as every other team in the league is aware of the aforementioned flaws.

dalmations202 · 07-13-2004, 09:55 AM

I would be in the group for "get V Carter". Not because I really like him so much, but because I think he is a better trading chip than AW. If you could move a few more "trading chips", move AW, and get VC back, then that is one beautiful trading chip to use in 60 days.

Daniels, Fin, JHo, Stack, VC is way too much. If moving VC to say Philly for Dalembert and Big Dog, though would be a steal for Philly, but would finally get Dallas a young Big with potential and an expiring contract. AI and VC in Philly would be fun to watch as well.

Fin, Stack, VC all become chips then, and you can talk deals. Would NO do a Barron Davis for VC? Maybe. Would the Nets do a Kidd for VC, probably not, but maybe?

I just think that if you take him, while reducing the numbers of players, that you would be OK in the end.

doggnutz · 07-13-2004, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: withoutmalice
V. Carter would be a terrible acquisition because:

a. he's injury-prone - how many full seasons has he played over his career? = 1 out of 6 seasons

b. he's turned into a one-dimensional jump-shooter because of (a) - he rarely ever penetrates into the lane anymore to dunk or do a layup through traffic because he's afraid someone will knock him down or that he'll roll his ankle when he lands

c. he's a primadonna with a huge ego - he's accustomed to being THE guy in TOR so how would he take being just one of the guys on a team with a ton of depth and scorers?

d. he can't play defense - his +/- would be about 0 if such stats were kept - he might block a few shots but because of his injury problems he's afraid of physical contact and would thus be a terrible fit at SF, a position that requires a player to often work in the paint and help with rebounding and doubling and blocking out the other team's post players

e. he's got a huge contract

Believe me, I'm in Canada so I know what's going with the Raptors and V. Carter, enough to know that TOR fans want to get rid of Carter more than they want to keep him because they no longer think he's worthy of being deemed a "franchise player". TOR will be very very lucky if they can get rid of him because really he's untradeable as every other team in the league is aware of the aforementioned flaws.

I picked this up from another board and checked it out.
He has better stas than finley, 4 years younger, better contrat - Expire same time, about 2 mm per year less max out, shoots about the same despite poor year last year, and gets to the line an average of 1.5 times per game more.

kg_veteran · 07-13-2004, 10:00 AM

At the risk of turning this into the Trade Forum, the Spotted One raises an interesting idea.

Would Philly trade Dalembert and Robinson to get VC? That seems at least possible. Certainly more possible than that same package for Walker.

Do it as a three-way trade and throw in Howard (just to annoy those that don't want to throw in Howard), and you've got the makings of a pretty darn good deal.

C: Dalembert, Bradley, Laettner, Benga, Pavel
PF: Nowitzki, Fortson
SF: Finley, Najera
SG: Stackhouse
PG: Daniels, Harris

Works for me.

Drbio · 07-13-2004, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Some Guy

Quote:

Originally posted by: madape

<u>From the New York Daily News this morning:</u>

I think that was the key phrase.

Finally! A new member makes a quality first post. Thank you and welcome to our forum.

Dooby · 07-13-2004, 10:02 AM

Read my lips:

Smaller contracts, not bigger contracts, make better trading pieces. The one exception to this is when you are dealing for a beyond max-size contract, of which there is currently one-Shaq's. VC is overpaid. His contract goes through 2008. You will no tbe able to move him easily. This is a terrible mistake.

EricaLubarsky · 07-13-2004, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Dooby
Read my lips:

Smaller contracts, not bigger contracts, make better trading pieces. The one exception to this is when you are dealing for a beyond max-size contract, of which there is currently one-Shaq's. VC is overpaid. His contract goes through 2008. You will no tbe able to move him easily. This is a terrible mistake.

Unless we can ship out Finley who's contract (may possibly) last until the 2009-2010 season, VC is kind of a waste. I agree with Dooby on this one.

Drbio · 07-13-2004, 10:05 AM

I just don't see VC coming to Dallas. Hopefully Cuban's blog entry the other day that stated "The trades you hear about never happen" will be in play here.

DevinHarriswillstart · 07-13-2004, 10:05 AM

We Don't Need Another Shooting Guard. Finley and Stackhouse do quite well.

Dooby · 07-13-2004, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: doggnutz

I picked this up from another board and checked it out.
He has better stas than finley, 4 years younger, better contrat - Expire same time, about 2 mm per year less max out, shoots about the same despite poor year last year, and gets to the line an average of 1.5 times per game more.

Then what do you do with Finley?

Drbio · 07-13-2004, 10:07 AM

Finley will finish his career as a Dallas Maverick. Every team in the league would love to have him (rightfully so) but noone wants his contract. Finley is a great player, but his contract is ours to pay.

EricaLubarsky · 07-13-2004, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Drbio
Finley will finish his career as a Dallas Maverick. Every team in the league would love to have him (rightfully so) but noone wants his contract. Finley is a great player, but his contract is ours to pay.

I said that about Raef Lafrentz as well. Some team may be stupid enough before the end of the contract.

Drbio · 07-13-2004, 10:14 AM

You may be right EL. I think a subtle difference is that LaFrentz plays center. There aren't 200 decent centers available whereas there are a ton of swingmen available. Who knows really. Nothing surprises me anymore.

DevinHarriswillstart · 07-13-2004, 10:30 AM

Well the fact is, if any of us hear a rumor about a trade, it probably isn't true because we all know their trades come out of left field.

uberfan · 07-13-2004, 10:36 AM

I can't beleive this is even being discussed.

No way VC helps the Mavs become a better team unless we got rid of the following contracts (Finley/Fortson/TAW/Najera) AND have also gotten a decent starting quality center not named Kurt Thomas that Nellie has to play no matter what AND you have a definite defensive upgrade at SF to keep all the athletic SF from scoring at will.

Hitman · 07-13-2004, 11:00 AM

Vince Carter would be, by December, the new public enemy number 1 on this board - far outweighing anything Antoine Walker ever experienced here.

I would MUCH rather keep Walker than trade him for Vince Carter OR Kurt Thomas.

Speaking of Thomas...do we realize that Walker is the same height as him, just as good of rebounder and a far superior talent? Those who suggest trading him straight up for KT are a little loony.

You have to hold out for an exceptional deal, or wait it out into the season, IMO.

FilthyFinMavs · 07-13-2004, 11:12 AM

Another guy who doesn't fit the Mavs needs. He'll fit right in.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img]

Dooby · 07-13-2004, 11:15 AM

We'll have a spot on the roster for a player who is a coach -Avery Johnson, and a spot on the roster for a player who is a GM- Vince Carter. Player/coaches; Player/GM's; if only the league allowed player/owners.... This is genius.