Official Lebron, Wade, Bosh FA watch thread.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

You're thinking of it the wrong way. These aren't #2 guys who need a young stars with lots of years ahead of them to compete. These are #1 guys who expect that a team will be built around them. If we get Lebron or Wade, we are as young as either of those guys (25 or 28, respectively). The age of our other stars is pretty much irrelevant.

These guys have huge egos--they're not worried about "oh, but what happens once Dirk is too old?" They're thinking, "Once Dirk is too old, I'll still be the man in Dallas, just like I will be the first day I get there."

I couldn't disagree more. Lebron's already been there and done that. It's lead to playoff disappointment and people questioning his ability to be a lead dog. I pretty sure that at this point he knows he needs help and wouldn't be so sure about our ability to replace a player as talented as Dirk.

He would have immediate help here but again, losing a year would be disastrous given the age of our core. Maybe in two years Dirk's still playing at a high level and we've managed to replace the production that we're currently getting from Kidd and Marion but it's going to take more than money. We're going to have to get lucky. If I'm Lebron I'm not betting my legacy on that. I hope he does but I wouldn't.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I couldn't disagree more. Lebron's already been there and done that. It's lead to playoff disappointment and people questioning his ability to be a lead dog. I pretty sure that at this point he knows he needs help and wouldn't be so sure about our ability to replace a player as talented as Dirk.

He would have immediate help here but again, losing a year would be disastrous given the age of our core. Maybe in two years Dirk's still playing at a high level and we've managed to replace the production that we're currently getting from Kidd and Marion but it's going to take more than money. We're going to have to get lucky. If I'm Lebron I'm not betting my legacy on that. I hope he does but I wouldn't.

The age of the Dallas core might be enough to make Lebron/Wade shy away from a deal of maximum length, but who's to say that's what they're after anyway? If you start talking about a three year deal (and there's certainly precedent for believing that they'd consider a contract in that range), Dallas' age is of almost no concern.

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

The age of the Dallas core might be enough to make Lebron/Wade shy away from a deal of maximum length, but who's to say that's what they're after anyway? If you start talking about a three year deal (and there's certainly precedent for believing that they'd consider a contract in that range), Dallas' age is of almost no concern.

No one is going to pass up a maximum length deal at max pay especially if their reasoning is that the signing team won't be able to compete for very much longer....

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

No one is going to pass up a maximum length deal at max pay especially if their reasoning is that the signing team won't be able to compete for very much longer....

Lebron, Wade and Bosh are all coming off three-year deals.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Lebron, Wade and Bosh are all coming off three-year deals.

Yeah but certainly they'd be crazy to sign three year deals this time around considering the pending labor issues and what people seem to think are going to happen to contract lengths and max numbers.

In fact those three year deals they're coming off of were specifically designed to expire just in time for them to sign huge, long contracts before the new CBA kicked in.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Yeah but certainly they'd be crazy to sign three year deals this time around considering the pending labor issues and what people seem to think are going to happen to contract lengths and max numbers.

In fact those three year deals they're coming off of were specifically designed to expire just in time for them to sign huge, long contracts before the new CBA kicked in.

That's a fair point. I'd not been considering the possibility that they wouldn't be able to sign a comparable deal next time around on the market. Though I also think the press to get the money now because it won't be available later favors a S&T if any of them leave their current teams, and that should be sufficient to keep the Mavs in the running for their services.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

That's a fair point. I'd not been considering the possibility that they wouldn't be able to sign a comparable deal next time around on the market. Though I also think the press to get the money now because it won't be available later favors a S&T if any of them leave their current teams, and that should be sufficient to keep the Mavs in the running for their services.

Definitely. Any huge star that moves this off season through a straight contract signing needs to fire their agent. It's more important than ever to get that extra year.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Yeah but certainly they'd be crazy to sign three year deals this time around considering the pending labor issues and what people seem to think are going to happen to contract lengths and max numbers.

In fact those three year deals they're coming off of were specifically designed to expire just in time for them to sign huge, long contracts before the new CBA kicked in.

Yep, LBJ led the charge on that. Don't underestimate this kid's business sense. And they will max it out this time around.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I couldn't disagree more. Lebron's already been there and done that. It's lead to playoff disappointment and people questioning his ability to be a lead dog. I pretty sure that at this point he knows he needs help and wouldn't be so sure about our ability to replace a player as talented as Dirk.

He would have immediate help here but again, losing a year would be disastrous given the age of our core. Maybe in two years Dirk's still playing at a high level and we've managed to replace the production that we're currently getting from Kidd and Marion but it's going to take more than money. We're going to have to get lucky. If I'm Lebron I'm not betting my legacy on that. I hope he does but I wouldn't.

You're still not thinking about it from the perspective of a guy who thinks he's the best player in the entire word and the greatest thing since sliced bread. His ego isn't going to allow him to believe that his "legacy" depends on people other than himself.

And nobody is reasonably questioning Lebron's ability to be a lead dog. Not a single person. People are questioning his enthusiasm for Cleveland, his heart, and the quality of this teammates, not his ability to be the guy.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

You're still not thinking about it from the perspective of a guy who thinks he's the best player in the entire word and the greatest thing since sliced bread. His ego isn't going to allow him to believe that his "legacy" depends on people other than himself.

There are two parts of his legacy, individual accolades and titles. He needs both to stand next to Jordan. Now If you're just talking about the individual stuff then you're right, he doesn't need anyone. By the time he's done his stats, MVP's and awards will speak for themselves. If that's all there was to it then he's fine but obviously it’s not.

To be talked about in the same terms as Jordan, Magic and Bird (among others) he needs to win not one but multiple titles. And if you don't think Lebron is aware that he needs help with that then I think you're selling him short. Maybe he thought that way when he was 20 but the last four years have shown otherwise.

Honestly if he thinks he can win a ring by himself then why would he come to Dallas? He’ll either stay in Cleveland or go to New York. The unique thing that we offer is the best chance to win it all next year because of Dirk and, to a lesser extent, the supporting cast.

And nobody is reasonably questioning Lebron's ability to be a lead dog. Not a single person. People are questioning his enthusiasm for Cleveland, his heart, and the quality of this teammates, not his ability to be the guy.

Keep in mind I’m not saying best player I’m saying lead dog. If you don’t think people are questioning that then we’re reading and listening to different things.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

There are two parts of his legacy, individual accolades and titles. He needs both to stand next to Jordan. Now If you're just talking about the individual stuff then you're right, he doesn't need anyone. By the time he's done his stats, MVP's and awards will speak for themselves. If that's all there was to it then he's fine but obviously it’s not.

To be talked about in the same terms as Jordan, Magic and Bird (among others) he needs to win not one but multiple titles. And if you don't think Lebron is aware that he needs help with that then I think you're selling him short. Maybe he thought that way when he was 20 but the last four years have shown otherwise.

Honestly if he thinks he can win a ring by himself then why would he come to Dallas? He’ll either stay in Cleveland or go to New York. The unique thing that we offer is the best chance to win it all next year because of Dirk and, to a lesser extent, the supporting cast.

I'm not implying that he can win a ring by himself. I'm also not implying that he can equal Jordan without winning several rings. What I'm saying is that I think he is too egotistical to fully realize or admit either of these things. You're talking about the objective reality of the situation, which is absolutely correct. What I'm talking about is Lebron's skewed perception of the situation, which is tainted by his arrogance and ego.

Mark it down: if Lebron goes his entire career without a title, he will still be insisting during interviews that "you all have seen what I can do," etc., and talking about how great he is. It's not going to stop him from thinking he's the best player, even though he'll be wrong.

But that's sort of tangential to the point anyway. The point is that because of his ego, I really don't think he's going to even slightly base his decision on the ages of the other good players on the team he goes to. That's not what a dude like "the King" is concerned with.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Mark it down: if Lebron goes his entire career without a title, he will still be insisting during interviews that "you all have seen what I can do," etc., and talking about how great he is. It's not going to stop him from thinking he's the best player, even though he'll be wrong.

Future Iverson/McGrady?

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I'm not implying that he can win a ring by himself. I'm also not implying that he can equal Jordan without winning several rings. What I'm saying is that I think he is too egotistical to fully realize or admit either of these things. You're talking about the objective reality of the situation, which is absolutely correct. What I'm talking about is Lebron's skewed perception of the situation, which is tainted by his arrogance and ego.

Mark it down: if Lebron goes his entire career without a title, he will still be insisting during interviews that "you all have seen what I can do," etc., and talking about how great he is. It's not going to stop him from thinking he's the best player, even though he'll be wrong.

But that's sort of tangential to the point anyway. The point is that because of his ego, I really don't think he's going to even slightly base his decision on the ages of the other good players on the team he goes to. That's not what a dude like "the King" is concerned with.

It seems the crux of the of the disagreement is that I give Lebron way more credit for having a realistic big picture view of things.

Lebron leaving Cleveland, where he as deep roots, for Dallas would be in itself an admission that he needs help. You don't have to go far from that point to assume that he's look at the age of the help.

Time will tell. If he's as egocentric as you say the Knicks are the only play.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

It seems the crux of the of the disagreement is that I give Lebron way more credit for having a realistic big picture view of things.

Lebron leaving Cleveland, where he as deep roots, for Dallas would be in itself an admission that he needs help. You don't have to go far from that point to assume that he's look at the age of the help.

Time will tell. If he's as egocentric as you say the Knicks are the only play.

The great one's needed help, MJ was nothing until Pippen and Grant got seasoned. Magic walked into Kareem, and Wilkes and Nixon. In recent years, the only team that lacked one hall of famer is Billups' Pistons....unless you count Coach Brown.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

It seems the crux of the of the disagreement is that I give Lebron way more credit for having a realistic big picture view of things.

Lebron leaving Cleveland, where he as deep roots, for Dallas would be in itself an admission that he needs help. You don't have to go far from that point to assume that he's look at the age of the help.

Time will tell. If he's as egocentric as you say the Knicks are the only play.

But you're not just talking about whether he'd get help now. He absolutely would get help in Dallas now--Dirk is here. What you said is that he'd also be concerned with the ages of the team's stars, because he'll be worried about whether he'll have help down the road. I say there's absolutely no way a guy like him is thinking about that.

Certainly, he'll look at the current roster and whether the team is already a good one (Dallas, Chicago) or not (NY, NJ). But I just don't believe for a second that he's going to be scanning the roster ages and thinking to himself, "Oh man, if I go to Dallas, I'm screwed in 4-5 years when Dirk is too old."

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

But you're not just talking about whether he'd get help now. He absolutely would get help in Dallas now--Dirk is here. What you said is that he'd also be concerned with the ages of the team's stars, because he'll be worried about whether he'll have help down the road. I say there's absolutely no way a guy like him is thinking about that.

Certainly, he'll look at the current roster and whether the team is already a good one (Dallas, Chicago) or not (NY, NJ). But I just don't believe for a second that he's going to be scanning the roster ages and thinking to himself, "Oh man, if I go to Dallas, I'm screwed in 4-5 years when Dirk is too old."

Yeah, you have to win ONE ring before you start worrying about building a dynasty - I think LeBron is smart enough to realize this...

Dallas is easily his best "win-now" option. Name another top-10 player who could compliment LeBron better than Dirk (hell, name another top-10 player who would take a backseat to ANYONE in this league - Chris Bosh is the only guy I can think of and he's not as good as Dirk...)

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

But you're not just talking about whether he'd get help now. He absolutely would get help in Dallas now--Dirk is here. What you said is that he'd also be concerned with the ages of the team's stars, because he'll be worried about whether he'll have help down the road. I say there's absolutely no way a guy like him is thinking about that.

He should be. And based on everything I've heard about him he's a thoughtful guy and listens to those in his inner circle. Nobody's going to inform him that he might wanna look at the age of his supporting cast?

Certainly, he'll look at the current roster and whether the team is already a good one (Dallas, Chicago) or not (NY, NJ). But I just don't believe for a second that he's going to be scanning the roster ages and thinking to himself, "Oh man, if I go to Dallas, I'm screwed in 4-5 years when Dirk is too old."

4 or 5 years is the optimistic view. Dirk won't be the same player in three years that he is today. Will he be good enough? Depends on who else is on the team. Keep in mind Lebron wouldn't just be coming to play with Dirk. There's also Kidd, Marion, Terry and Butler to consider. The first three are clearly in decline and Butler may be.

Yes the owner is willing to spend but as you well know, that alone isn't always enough. You almost have to get lucky and have just the right assets for just the right player at just the right time. Again, If I'm Lebron that's not a gamble I'm willing to take. I know you think his ego is so big that he won't consider or care about these things and that's where we disagree.