When and why did it happen?

[Murphy3]

When and why did the Mavs go from an above average defensive team last year to one of the worst defensive basketball teams in the past 15 years?

Well, I can come up with a couple of things, but what else am I missing?

1. The Mavs got rid of alot of role players that played solid defense such as Griffin and Bell.

2. Trading Raef. This forced the Mavs to move Dirk out of position and left the Mavs with a hole at both the 4 and the 5 spot defensively in the starting lineup. Instead of having a decent average at the 4 and a average defender at the 5 last season, the Mavs ended up with below average defenders at both spots when Dirk was moved out of position and Walker was moved to the 4 spot.

3. Nellie coming into the season instilling the mindset that the Mavs would simply have too much fire power for other teams and would out score them all putting up 110+ a game. That is what he was thinking, wasn't it?

4. The consistent under utilization of the centers especially Bradley. It really makes no difference what type of positive impact he has on the game, he still cannot get off of the bench for significenat minutes.

5. Nellie's unwillingness to go with more than one defender on the court way too often until it's simply too late.

[dirno2000]

That pretty much sums it up. In addition, Walker and Jamison are bigger tweeners on defense than they are on offense. They don't have quick enough feet to guard perimeter players and they're too small to guard big power players.

[dalmations202]

Originally posted by: Murphy3
When and why did the Mavs go from an above average defensive team last year to one of the worst defensive basketball teams in the past 15 years?

Well, I can come up with a couple of things, but what else am I missing?

1. The Mavs got rid of alot of role players that played solid defense such as Griffin and Bell.

2. Trading Raef. This forced the Mavs to move Dirk out of position and left the Mavs with a hole at both the 4 and the 5 spot defensively in the starting lineup. Instead of having a decent average at the 4 and a average defender at the 5 last season, the Mavs ended up with below average defenders at both spots when Dirk was moved out of position and Walker was moved to the 4 spot.

3. Nellie coming into the season instilling the mindset that the Mavs would simply have too much fire power for other teams and would out score them all putting up 110+ a game. That is what he was thinking, wasn't it?

4. The consistent under utilization of the centers especially Bradley. It really makes no difference what type of positive impact he has on the game, he still cannot get off of the bench for significenat minutes.

5. Nellie's unwillingness to go with more than one defender on the court way too often until it's simply too late.

I can only agree with your list above.
I would also add that the backup PG can't push the ball, and takes them out of their offensive flow which in turn allows the other team to rest and be in their offense more efficiently.

[Dooby]

I will go to my grave believing that another coach could get a better defensive effort from this team.

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: Dooby
I will go to my grave believing that another coach could get a better defensive effort from this team.

Unfortunately, the current coach has done a good job of helping to take this mavs club several steps back from where they were last year.

[MikeB]

Originally posted by: Dooby
I will go to my grave believing that another coach could get a better defensive effort from this team.

I agree with you but I seriously hope it doesn't have to come to that[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[Just211]

The MAvs problem on D is the result of the Big 3 being below avg defenders. It's hard to set a defensive pace when those three are on the court most of the time, and those 3 are way too lax on defense. That leaves 2(and in most cases really one,if any) players to d up. although its the personnel, its still Nellies fault for not riding the big 3 and forcing them to set the tone. I like the fact that Daniels and Howard are getting more PT, but it's gonna take a lot more to turn the D around. IMO Dallas is deep enough for everyone to play their ass off and not worry about foul trouble. That in turn would encourage them to NOT allow layups nad open shots, but it doesn't happen that way.
For once i'd love to see Nellie yang out someone other than a rookie or Shawn or Eddie for bad D, he should pull anyone who doesn't put forth the proper effort, and set a tone that it will not be accepted.

[dirno2000]

It's interesting how the majority opinion is that Bradley should play more (not that I disagree), but nobody clamors for Travis Best to play more. He's one of the best defensive point guards in the league and he can't get off of our bench. Yes, Daniels is a good looking young player, however, he's not a point guard and he's a defensive step down from Best.

[Bookit]

5. Nellie's unwillingness to go with more than one defender on the court way too often until it's simply too late.

There is a lot of truth to this. However, he might be coming around with Daniels and Howard playing more and Walker sitting more. Anybody know why Walker starts?

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: Just211
The MAvs problem on D is the result of the Big 3 being below avg defenders. It's hard to set a defensive pace when those three are on the court most of the time, and those 3 are way too lax on defense. That leaves 2(and in most cases really one,if any) players to d up. although its the personnel, its still Nellies fault for not riding the big 3 and forcing them to set the tone. I like the fact that Daniels and Howard are getting more PT, but it's gonna take a lot more to turn the D around. IMO Dallas is deep enough for everyone to play their ass off and not worry about foul trouble. That in turn would encourage them to NOT allow layups nad open shots, but it doesn't happen that way.
For once i'd love to see Nellie yang out someone other than a rookie or Shawn or Eddie for bad D, he should pull anyone who doesn't put forth the proper effort, and set a tone that it will not be accepted.

The Mavs were more than capable of playing above average defense with the big 3 last year. Why haven't they been able to do so this year?

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: Murphy3
When and why did the Mavs go from an above average defensive team last year to one of the worst defensive basketball teams in the past 15 years?

Well, I can come up with a couple of things, but what else am I missing?

1. The Mavs got rid of alot of role players that played solid defense such as Griffin and Bell.

The key thing about the roleplayers last year is that they defended, hustled, and they had complementary offensive abilities. Certainly, it helps that Howard and Daniels hit the boards offensively, but neither of them can consistently hit a jump shot. Every Mavs role player last year could do that. It's not the rookies' fault; they're rookies. But the fact remains, the role players were better at playing their roles last year.

2. Trading Raef. This forced the Mavs to move Dirk out of position and left the Mavs with a hole at both the 4 and the 5 spot defensively in the starting lineup. Instead of having a decent average at the 4 and a average defender at the 5 last season, the Mavs ended up with below average defenders at both spots when Dirk was moved out of position and Walker was moved to the 4 spot.

Trading Raef also basically turned the team from a "small ball" team into a "medium ball" team. Instead of being undersized defensively in the backcourt, the Mavs are now undersized defensively in the frontcourt. They have no one to protect the basket because Raef is gone and Nellie won't play Bradley. Last year we had two guys to protect the basket, and both of them played on a regular basis. It's no coincidence that opponents are shooting nearly 46% against the Mavs this season as opposed to 43%. It's no coincidence that teams have individual career highs and team records shattered on a regular basis against the Mavericks. You build your defense from the paint outward, and the Mavs have nobody in the paint.

And even if the Mavs did have somebody in the paint, their defensive schemes and defensive communication are so poor that it wouldn't matter. When you watch the players, they're really getting frustrated because they honestly don't know where to rotate, when to switch, when to double, and other very basic things that a team certainly should have mastered by this point in the season. It's not just that the Mavs are getting beaten by the opposing offense. They're beating themselves because they have no clue what they're supposed to be doing on that end of the court.

3. Nellie coming into the season instilling the mindset that the Mavs would simply have too much fire power for other teams and would out score them all putting up 110+ a game. That is what he was thinking, wasn't it?

We all know Nellie plays his best 5 players as often as possible. That's a philosophy he has held for a long time. You put your best players on the floor. The worst thing about the Raef trade was that it put Nellie in a position where his best 5 players were EVEN WORSE than last year defensively, and they didn't mix as well offensively. But Nellie is Nellie, and he's going to play those 5 guys, dammit. That's what he's going to do.

I'm not saying that by playing Bradley consistently and by keeping a "center" on the floor at all time the Mavs would automatically win it all. But I can guarantee you they aren't winning anything by putting three poor defensive forwards and two poor defensive guards on the floor together for the majority of the time. Nellie knows that, yet he appears resigned to playing out the string that way anyway. And that's pathetic.

As I've said before, it's better to try something that gives you the possibility of winning it all than to play out the string another way knowing you have no chance.

[kg_veteran]

It's interesting how the majority opinion is that Bradley should play more (not that I disagree), but nobody clamors for Travis Best to play more. He's one of the best defensive point guards in the league and he can't get off of our bench. Yes, Daniels is a good looking young player, however, he's not a point guard and he's a defensive step down from Best.

This is an interesting point, and one that I agree with the more I think about it. Honestly, Best should be the backup PG, Daniels should be the backup SG (where he defends the best), and Howard should play all of his time at SF.

[CenS]

Hasn't Best still struggling with his injury?

[dalmations202]

Trading Raef also basically turned the team from a "small ball" team into a "medium ball" team. Instead of being undersized defensively in the backcourt, the Mavs are now undersized defensively in the frontcourt. They have no one to protect the basket because Raef is gone and Nellie won't play Bradley. Last year we had two guys to protect the basket, and both of them played on a regular basis. It's no coincidence that opponents are shooting nearly 46% against the Mavs this season as opposed to 43%. It's no coincidence that teams have individual career highs and team records shattered on a regular basis against the Mavericks. You build your defense from the paint outward, and the Mavs have nobody in the paint.

And even if the Mavs did have somebody in the paint, their defensive schemes and defensive communication are so poor that it wouldn't matter. When you watch the players, they're really getting frustrated because they honestly don't know where to rotate, when to switch, when to double, and other very basic things that a team certainly should have mastered by this point in the season. It's not just that the Mavs are getting beaten by the opposing offense. They're beating themselves because they have no clue what they're supposed to be doing on that end of the court.

I think this is basically the biggest problem the Mavs are having right now. They don't have a shot blocker when they do gamble on a steal. They have no one to block the shot, (on the court), when they get beat off the dribble. The defense scheme calls for switching at the pick, but most of the time either the switch doesn't happen and both go with one or both get picked - either way it leaves one man with a layup or dunk and no weak side help. When they try to help on D, no one rotates to the open man, and they give up a layup or dunk. Their big man ends up being Dirk, who on bad ankles, is not quick enough to get back into the position he needs to block shots, and usually is out on the perimeter anyway.

Bradley can solve some of the woes, but he is so foul prone due to having to be the only line of defense. Howard seems to be pretty good, but gambles too much as well. Daniels plays pretty good defense, but slows up the offense. Best is very good on defense, but he slows down the offense so much that the other team rests while D is in its half court offense. I truly believe that this team is better off starting Nash, Fin, Howard, Nowitzki, and Bradley, and bringing in Walker, Jamison, Daniels, Best , and Williams at the same time. I would pull a Hubie, and go with two different sets. Then you have Fortson, Najera for energy/foul issues. Mix and match when you have to in the second half, but with the 1st group you have at least 2 defenders in the game, and with the second group, Walker and Jamison can be the focus of the "half court" offense that Best runs anyway.

[kg_veteran]

Really interesting thoughts, dalmations. I'm going to borrow your rotation ideas and stick them in my Playoff Solution thread...

[chumdawg]

Murph, I agree solidly with four items from your list, and I would rank them this way in order of importance:

1) underutilizing centers
2) trading Raef
3) 110+ mindset
4) not enough defenders on court

You can't argue that your point#1 doesn't have validity in itself, but you could make the point that it's not as if they don't *have* anyone who might be able to fill the same roles if given the opportunity. And you also have to figure out exactly how much impact those guys had last year.

I took a look at the playoff stats from last year, in an attempt to figure out what Nellie's ideal "rotation" was last year. I tossed out blowouts and games where injuries affected the lineups, leaving only closely contested games with a full roster. That was thirteen games. Here are the minutes averages:

Dirk - 45
Fin - 41
Nash - 39

Raef - 24
Shawn - 15
Eddie - 18

NVE - 34
Bell - 13
Walt - 6
Griffin - 4

Shawn's and Raja's averages are skewed a little bit. Shawn actually played heavy minutes in some games (averaged 23 minutes in his seven busiest games), and in six other games he played sparingly while Raja averaged 21. Point is that one of those two guys was logging good minutes in each game for defensive purposes.

So to divide it among offense and defense, if we can dare to simplify it like that, you would probably have:

OFFENSE
Dirk - 45
Fin - 41
Nash - 39
NVE - 34
Walt - 6
TOTAL - 165

DEFENSE
Raef - 24
Eddie - 18
Shawn - 15
Bell - 13
Griffin - 4
TOTAL - 74

I realize this is an oversimplification, as the offensive guys can still defend and the defensive guys can still score.

But the question is this: is there any way possible that Nellie is going to get 74 minutes a game this postseason out of defensive-minded players?

Only if you are going to call Howard and Daniels defensive guys, I guess. And even then, maybe not. But still, Howard and Daniels aren't half the defenders that Raef and Bell and Shawn were last year.

Actually, the more I think about it, I think Murph's point #3 is the most important, and the other points are all subpoints of that one.

And you know what? It would be nice if it were working. I'd love to watch a team who could score 120 points every night. But alas, no.

[Murphy3]

Unfortunately, the Mavs made too many changes early in the season to the offense. They made significant changes to their offensive philosophy by going to the Point Forward when there really was no reason to do so. That backfired big time early in the season.

Chumdawg, as for the rest of my points being a bit of a sub point to the one idea that the Mavs would simply outscore everyone..well, yeah, pretty much. All of it is a subplot to Nellie's 5 all-stars on offense philosophy regardless of the defensive deficiencies.

He basically took an average defender at the 4 in Dirk and turned him into the last line of defense at the center spot. Obviously, that was a dumbass idea.

[MightyToine]

First off,

Walk starts because he probably wouldn't handle being benched very well...(that, and maybe they are showcasing him....hmmm)




Anyway, All of the Mavs problems this year stem from the acquisition of Walker(as far as OFFENSE goes). I agree 100% on this. I truly believed that Nellie would've put Walker in a position where he would excel......

So much for THAT.... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif[/img]

[grndmstr_c]

t's interesting how the majority opinion is that Bradley should play more (not that I disagree), but nobody clamors for Travis Best to play more. He's one of the best defensive point guards in the league and he can't get off of our bench. Yes, Daniels is a good looking young player, however, he's not a point guard and he's a defensive step down from Best.

Man, I've been saying that for weeks...okay, just wanted to make sure everybody knew.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[Just211]

The Mavs were more than capable of playing above average defense with the big 3 last year. Why haven't they been able to do so this year?

above avg? you really think so. WEll they weren't above avg to me last year, but if say so, it must be true.
Then maybe you can blame some of it on teams figuring out the zones, and no true center. BUt I still think the problem lies with the tone being set by the big 3 and Nellie.

[dude1394]

I don't know about "above average" but they defended good enough last year. As posted previously just the 103.0 - 95.2 opposing teams is quite adequate and an above average spread I believe. You can throw everthing else out. Also 43.8% fg would be right about middle of the pack this year. Versus almost tied for last this year.

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: Murphy3
When and why did the Mavs go from an above average defensive team last year to one of the worst defensive basketball teams in the past 15 years?

Well, I can come up with a couple of things, but what else am I missing?

1. The Mavs got rid of alot of role players that played solid defense such as Griffin and Bell.

2. Trading Raef. This forced the Mavs to move Dirk out of position and left the Mavs with a hole at both the 4 and the 5 spot defensively in the starting lineup. Instead of having a decent average at the 4 and a average defender at the 5 last season, the Mavs ended up with below average defenders at both spots when Dirk was moved out of position and Walker was moved to the 4 spot.

3. Nellie coming into the season instilling the mindset that the Mavs would simply have too much fire power for other teams and would out score them all putting up 110+ a game. That is what he was thinking, wasn't it?

4. The consistent under utilization of the centers especially Bradley. It really makes no difference what type of positive impact he has on the game, he still cannot get off of the bench for significenat minutes.

5. Nellie's unwillingness to go with more than one defender on the court way too often until it's simply too late.

6. Having to spend the pre-season working on offense versus defense shows. And he had to do it as the offense changed a lot.
7. I still think tradeing Raef affected them mentally as well.
8. Walker is a very poor fit for this team. May wind up being a very marginal player from now on.

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: Bookit
5. Nellie's unwillingness to go with more than one defender on the court way too often until it's simply too late.

There is a lot of truth to this. However, he might be coming around with Daniels and Howard playing more and Walker sitting more. Anybody know why Walker starts?

If this is his answer I don''t buy it. Again I'd rather see best a, REALLY good defender come in versus daniels who acts like a scorer.

Walker starts as stated in above posts. He couldn't take it and jamison's not any better of a defender. But if it got shawn starting that would be the way to do it.

[dude1394]

So we had 39 minutes of shot-blocking last year and many times 3 seven footers across the back of the zone. The walker-raef trade has been a disaster. The ONLY and I mean ONLY rationale for this is that the mavs knew raef was done not only for the year but possibly for the rest of his career and they saw a way to take a chance on walker (maybe it works, maybe not) and if not his big salary gives them the piece next year that they didn't have this year to get into the sheed, ratliff trades.

[Just211]

dude maybe stat wise they were "avg". But intensity wise, they are and were way below avg. MAybe the denfensive #'s were better last year becuase the Mavs were dominating more games and the other teams quit. Just about every game this year has been close throughout.
To tell the truth, i don't think any of us know the real answer , it's probably a combination of what all of us think

[dude1394]

I don't know just211. They had a problem covering really physical teams and rebounding. But they busted it last year. Again they were 1 game and 1 quarter away from winning the NBA championship. It wasn't just offense.

Again they weren't great but they were average to above average.

[Just211]

I think its a mindset that isn't being set. You see them step it up for a qtr, or a tough stretch, but they won't do it consistantly. Hopefully when playoff time arrives, some of these vets will realize they have to set it up. At least i hope so, becuase if they don't, they'll be embarrassed in front of a nation wide audience.

[dude1394]

This year is shaping up quickly to be like the 2001-2002 year. They beat minnesota in the first round but then got shellacked by sacremento. Their numbers that year are very similar to this year.

Mavs-Opps.

PPG 105 - 101
FG% 46.2 - 45.2

The 45.2 FG% versus last years 43.8% is the key. We'll have another big banner in the work-out center.

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: Just211
I think its a mindset that isn't being set. You see them step it up for a qtr, or a tough stretch, but they won't do it consistantly. Hopefully when playoff time arrives, some of these vets will realize they have to set it up. At least i hope so, becuase if they don't, they'll be embarrassed in front of a nation wide audience.

More than anything, I believe that this group just isn't nearly as capable of being a good defensive group compared to the collection of players on the roster last year.

I wish it were just a mindset or even mainly a mindset issue.

[dude1394]

I think you are correct there murph. I don't think dirk feels anyone has his back when he's on the wing, I don't think nash, finley feel the same way. They can't trust anyone to pick up their player on a pick nor will anyone recognize when to switch.

But... Nellie could HELP some of this with shawn, why he doesn't is still beyond me.

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: dude1394
I think you are correct there murph. I don't think dirk feels anyone has his back when he's on the wing, I don't think nash, finley feel the same way. They can't trust anyone to pick up their player on a pick nor will anyone recognize when to switch.

But... Nellie could HELP some of this with shawn, why he doesn't is still beyond me.

But, if they don't feel like anyone is behind them to help out, don't you think they would actually guard on the perimeter just a bit better?

[dude1394]

Well if you mean keep them from driving, yes. But giving up uncontested 3pt shots no. That's part of the problem. They can't play to either strength. They can't lay off because everyone is hitting threes wide open and when they close they are driven around with no help. The offensive guy sure doesn't hesitate to drive around because no one will contest them.

[TwoDeep3]

Murphy, last season you commented what a poor defensive team the Mavs were and only stopped when you made your Nick sucks, Raef sucks, give Dirk the damn ball chants.

To see you laud praise on last year's defensive team now makes me wonder if you drank too much of the Kool-aid.

[Day1MavsFan]

I DO think it is primarily mindset. Nellie just won't hold his players accountable for their defense, Eddie and Shawn being exceptions, nor will he emphasize it during games (until too late, when the offense isn't working).
All I hear is how we have so much TALENT. If we have so much talent, then why can't the talent play defense. If the 2 twans are so talented, then where is the D. Jamison is a very quick offensive player, why can't he be quick with his feet on defense. Dirk is okay, but why can't somebody tell him to stop backing down automatically and put his body on the defender? Is he not talented enough to play good defense? What about Fin? Who could have more talent? Same question. Is he not talented enough to play D? It's not the ability, it's the mindset. What, Dirk can't step in and take a charge? How much talent does that take? Nash is probably the only guy that can't play defense while expending so much energy on offense. This year however his offense is not making up for it, like last year, because....
Nash isn't shooting enough. He's still our best shooter, but he keeps deferring to the other players. That is another reason not mentioned above that is hurting us. If I'm Nellie, I'm telling him, "to hell with Walker's shots, you shoot the ball at least a dozen times a game."

I want to mention one other thing that I haven't seen talked about in a while, Van Exel's attitude. I know some people mentioned this after the trade, that we would miss his attitude, inspiration, and swagger. I think now we see that this WAS a big concern. Look how Jamison compares to Nick in this department. How will this affect us come playoff time? Gulp.
There are no leaders on this team. In this case, the coach should become the leader, but Nellie won't take charge enough. Walker is too sorry to be the leader, as much as he might want to be. Forget the big 5. I hate to say it, because he was a 40% shooter, an average defender (at best), and a no-show on the boards; but we miss Nick. Boy, could we have used the road assassin this year. What is that they say about chemistry?

[dude1394]

I think NVE etc. are all periphery. It's trading away a shot-blocker, refusing to put another one in and NOT focusing on defense this year versus last. I do see some issues with dirk not being a more imposing force down low. He just isn't willing to contest shots, for some reason. That's probably nellie's biggest gripe with him.

But walker just has not worked out at all. Even a journeyman big guy would have been a better deal.

[MightyToine]

Originally posted by: dude1394
I think NVE etc. are all periphery. It's trading away a shot-blocker, refusing to put another one in and NOT focusing on defense this year versus last. I do see some issues with dirk not being a more imposing force down low. He just isn't willing to contest shots, for some reason. That's probably nellie's biggest gripe with him.

But walker just has not worked out at all. Even a journeyman big guy would have been a better deal.

Trade him to Chicago.

[dalmations202]

Originally posted by: MightyToine

Trade him to Chicago.

Or anywhere else that will get us that legitimate Starting Defensive-minded Shotblocking Center.

[Murphy3]

Actually, I believe I was a member of the Raef patience club. I wasn't always thrilled with his play but I wasn't looking to move him out of here unless there was someone taking his minutes at that position that was an upgrade. And yes, last years defense had issues that needed to be addressed but it is head and shoulders above this unit defensively.

So, because you thought making a "B-" on a paper wasn't quite where you wanted to be means that whenever you re-do the paper and make an "F" on it means that you wouldn't at least like to be back at the "B-" level?

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: Murphy3
Actually, I believe I was a member of the Raef patience club. I wasn't always thrilled with his play but I wasn't looking to move him out of here unless there was someone taking his minutes at that position that was an upgrade. And yes, last years defense had issues that needed to be addressed but it is head and shoulders above this unit defensively.

So, because you thought making a "B-" on a paper wasn't quite where you wanted to be means that whenever you re-do the paper and make an "F" on it means that you wouldn't at least like to be back at the "B-" level?

*In his best Marv Albert voice*

Murphy serves up the facial!

[kg_veteran]

It is partly about mindset, in that the guys that are on the court together have to trust one another, focus on playing defense, and know how their teammates will react to what the opposing offense does. In a game where a split second makes the difference between a steal and a layup or a block and a made shot, being able to react instinctively instead of being tentative and having to think makes all the difference in the world.

At the same time, though, last year's team played a better mix of offensive and defensive talent. You have to have the right mindset, but you also have to have the physical ability to do certain things defensively. I don't care how much Walker or Jamison focuses, they're not going to be able to block shots like Raef did and Bradley does. I don't care how intense they are defensively, they're not going to suddenly develop lateral quickness.

There IS enough defensive talent on this team to be passable defensively. However, the key elements are these:

1. A starting role and significant time for Bradley (probably 25 mpg).
2. Consistent time and the backup PG role for Travis Best.
3. Fewer minutes for Walker and Jamison and more for Howard.
4. Fewer minutes for Finley (say 35) and more for Daniels.
5. Consistent minutes for Najera and Williams (probably 15-20 minutes combined).

I can tell you right now, none of those things are going to happen.