Would you do these trades for Nash? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

akaarod03 · 05-18-2004, 12:40 PM

First and foremost, I truly believe Nash will resign in Dallas (even though I'm not a big fan of his agent). However, in my opinion, there are 2 teams that I think Nash would be willing to go to...Toronto and Phoenix. With that said, would you do these trades for Nash?

1) Nash and filler to Phoenix for Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, and Jahidi White?

Why Dallas does it?

Marion and Johnson are both studs. Marion is a really good defender at the SF position. Johnson is a rising star at the SG position. White is essentially Danny Fortson...but I believe he's a couple of inches taller than Fortson...for whatever that's worth. Keep in mind...I'm under the assumption that Dallas will trade Walker for a center...be it Dampier or whoever.

Why Phoenix does it?

They fill a major need at PG. When Eisley is your starting PG...you have big problems. They clear up enough salary cap space to get Kobe...who apparently likes the Phoenix area. If Kobe leaves the Lakers...Phoenix has to be on the top of the list. The best backcourt in the league with Nash and Kobe teaming up with Amare is a pretty exciting trio.

2) Nash and filler to Toronto for Chris Bosh and Alvin Williams

Why Dallas does it? I'm a big fan of Bosh. Is he a center? No. But he's athletic enough to defend the 4s in the West (Duncan, Garnett, etc). Don't get me wrong. Bosh isn't an all-world defender just yet. I mean he's only 19. But I like his potential. Williams is an OK replacement as a backup PG behind Daniels

Why Toronto does it? They get "Kid Canada". With their high lottery pick...they can look to replace Bosh or some other pressing need.

Your thoughts?

grndmstr_c · 05-18-2004, 12:47 PM

Phoenix trade: you'd need about 12 million in filler since Nash will be a BYC guy next year. Furthermore, I don't think Phoenix lets Johnson and Marion go. It's my understanding that they're very high on Johnson, and Marion ain't exactly chopped liver. From a Dallas perspective, bear in mind that we'd only be renting Johnson for a year. When he becomes a free agent next year he'll go for more than the MLE and Dallas would simply lose him.

Totonto: I don't think there's any way the Raps do that deal. They'd be better off keeping Bosh and drafting a PG.

dalmations202 · 05-18-2004, 12:50 PM

#1 - I don't do a Nash trade. BYC problems, etc.

#2 - If I considered it....most definately I do the Phoenix trade.
Daniels, Johnson, Marion, Dirk, and Bradley/(FA or Trade) Center..........not too bad. I admit, if I did, I would probably try Fin/Walker/Jamison or whatever they wanted to Chicago to get Hinrich. <edit> Think about it...Fin/Walker/Jamison/JHO would be second stringers - now that is a second string...................

#3 - If I consider it.......yes I do the Toronto trade as well, but not as quickly.
Daniels, Finley, Jamison, Nowitzki, Bosh could be a pretty good lineup for a long time. Not as high on this trade as the other though.

dirno2000 · 05-18-2004, 12:58 PM

Once again, If Phoenix really wants Nash they can offer him about 68 Mil over 6 years. I don't think Cuban would necessarily have problem with the starting salary, but the length of that offer would force his hand.

Being that they were about the worst team in the West this season, it wouldn't make much sense for them to trade away a good young (Johnson, Marion, Barbosa) player unless they can get a superstar in return.

grndmstr_c · 05-18-2004, 01:29 PM

Quote:

If Phoenix really wants Nash they can offer him about 68 Mil over 6 years. I don't think Cuban would necessarily have problem with the starting salary, but the length of that offer would force his hand.

Dirno, you know good and well that there's no way in hell that Mark let's Steve go without getting something in return. It would cripple the franchise more than the extra year on Steve's contract and extra 5 mil that it would cost over a deal matching the remainder of Bibby's contract (which sounds reasonable to me). If Phoenix wants Nash bad enough, they'll have to give to get.

XERXES · 05-18-2004, 01:32 PM

#1 No

#2 Yes

grndmstr_c · 05-18-2004, 01:36 PM

XERXES, you mean that YOU wouldn't do #1, or Phoenix wouldn't?

XERXES · 05-18-2004, 01:49 PM

I personally wouldn't do #1. Not with our current roster. Why would we add another 2 and 3 (albeit good ones) to this roster? We already have a glut of 4's.

If we do this deal, where do JHo's, Fin's, Daniel's, and minutes come from? I might do this in conjunction with another deal. I think Daniel's future is more at the SG tahn the PG (complete speculation on my part.)

grndmstr_c · 05-18-2004, 01:57 PM

I'm completey with you that it necessitates another deal, but getting that kind of value on Nash - I'd bet the franchise that another deal could be found. Of course, it depends on what kind of filler you had to throw in with Nash. As I indicated in my first post in this thread, from what I've heard Phoenix is too high on Johnson for this deal to ever happen, unless said filler was Dirk, in which case there's no way Dallas does it.

dirno2000 · 05-18-2004, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Dirno, you know good and well that there's no way in hell that Mark let's Steve go without getting something in return. It would cripple the franchise more than the extra year on Steve's contract and extra 5 mil that it would cost over a deal matching the remainder of Bibby's contract (which sounds reasonable to me). If Phoenix wants Nash bad enough, they'll have to give to get.

I would have agreed with that two or three years ago, but now I'm not so sure. It's been awhile since we've seen the Cuban "I don't care how much it cost to win" bravado that he exibited in his early years. I have no feel for how the Nash negotiaton will go.

Just out of curiosity GMC, how far would you go contract wise to keep Nash?

mavsman55 · 05-18-2004, 02:30 PM

I wouldn't do the Toronto trade. Along with getting rid of our all-star point guard, this trade would squeeze yet another PF into our already-crowded frontcourt. Bosh being here would not only limit his minutes/production, it would limit Dirk's also.

I don't want Nash to leave either. He is the glue that holds this team together.

grndmstr_c · 05-18-2004, 02:44 PM

Here's how I see it, Dirno. If a team comes along and is interested in offering Nash more than what Cuban was hoping to have to use to resign him, then it essentially becomes a choice between two evils for Cuban. On the one hand you lose Nash and get nothing in return. On the other, you overpay Nash and hamstring yourself in other ways, perhaps meaning you have to let Walker finish out his contract as a Mav to shave the payroll in some other way. Between those two, is there any amount that any team could legally offer Steve that would make resigning him and having to deal with Walker for another year a worse thing for the franchise than simply losing Steve outright? Personally, I don't think so (of course, I also don't think that any team will offer him a completely maxed out deal for the same reasons that you'd be so loathe to have to match a maxed out deal). Factor in S&T possibilities and I just don't think there's any way that any team is going to get their hands on Steve without giving something up to get him. Mark's priority is, and should be, doing what's best for the franchise, and losing Steve without compensation would almost certainly NOT be what's best for the franchise, even if what's best means taking a bit of a hit.

Poindexter Einstein · 05-18-2004, 03:07 PM

NEITHER TRADE WORKS AT ALL UNDER CAP RULES, SO NO REASON TO TALK ABOUT THEM.

Phoenix ... You have to add so much "filler" to the deal that Phoenix actually eats up their cap room, rather than clearing space. Thus it no longer makes sense for Phoenix.

Toronto ...Cant do it at all. Base year issues make that swap impossible - both teams are over the cap.

akaarod03 · 05-18-2004, 04:27 PM

Poindexter Einstein: Keep in mind that this is a sign-and-trade...let's say Nash gets close to 10 million a year...we would have to get something close to that value. In his current contract...you're right...we would have to add so much "filler" to the deal that it wouldn't make too much sense.

grndmstr_c · 05-18-2004, 04:41 PM

aka, PE's about as close as there is on this board to a capologist. Steve's contract next year will probably be worth somewhere in the range of 10-11 million for another team's cap purposes, but in a trade we'd only be able to take back 5.75 million +115% +100, 000 for him. We CAN'T get something close to 10 million in value for him.

FullBurst41 · 05-18-2004, 04:51 PM

I'm rather intrigued by the Toronto trade, however I wouldn't do it for one simple reason: I do not trust Daniels as our PG. I really like the guy, but I think he plays much better at the SG spot than he does anywhere else. Except of course if Stefanson suddenly breaks out, which I doubt.

As for Phoenix, I'm not so sure. Depending on what kind of filler you throw in, you'd force Jamison back to the bench. I don't think he deserves that treatment after what he gave to this team this year.

Poindexter Einstein · 05-18-2004, 05:34 PM

AKA ... Nash would be a Base Year player, so his cap number would count differently for Dallas or for Phoenix in a sign-and-trade. (Yes I recognized it as such). The net effect is that Phoenix will have to INCREASE their cap commitments by about 6M, if they acquire Nash for equal contracts. That REDUCES their cap room, by that amount. They could do the deal, but then they are out of space - instead of clearing room for Kobe, they have decimated their roster and gotten Nash and nothing more.

akaarod03 · 05-18-2004, 07:06 PM

Thanks PE...I wasn't aware of the salary cap ramifications. Like I said from the outset...I highly doubt Nash will be traded. The player who I hope is gone is A-Walk. Stay tuned...should be an eventful offseason. Go Mavs!

jayC · 05-19-2004, 02:12 PM

Eisley isn't their starting point guard its Barbosa. and two you never trade big and young for old and small. Second the hardest things to find in the NBA are point guard and center. We have one so why get rid of him?

bcrav4 · 05-19-2004, 02:59 PM

But, basically we can trade for any player still on their rookie year contract....am i right????

And if you look at hoopshype most teams have more than half of their roster making less than 5.75 million. The possibilites are actually endless.

bcrav4 · 05-19-2004, 03:30 PM

These are players we could trade Nash for if they become BYC players too w/their new contracts....Camby, Dampier, and Okur or maybe just straight up for Darko.

Poindexter Einstein · 05-19-2004, 11:00 PM

BCRAV ... No. I dont know where you got that idea. You have to match salaries, when teams over the cap are trading.

"These are players we could trade Nash for if they become BYC players too w/their new contracts....Camby, Dampier, and Okur or maybe just straight up for Darko. "

None of those players would be remotely close to being a permissible trade for the Mavs, except for perhaps Camby (depending on what Camby's new contract looks like). But why would Denver trade away Camby, who they want to keep, after they sign him? They could sign both, if they wanted to, and give nothing to Dallas.