10-8: Mavs beat the Suns (I love typing that) - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

chumdawg · 12-05-2008, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Um, that draft had some freaking ridiculous players in it, and you can make an argument that Josh may have been the 5th best player in that draft (and that's ignoring the several occasions on which he's clearly outplayed Carmelo in head-to-head matchups). Trust me, the overwhelming majority of the teams that passed on him wish they hadn't.

If you redrafted right now, I have a hard time seeing him going higher than nine. Eight would be a stretch. Eleven is rightly possible.

He certainly doesn't go higher than eight.

That's not good news, when five years have passed to weed out all the junk.

In other words, if you know how drafts work, he went where he went for a (very good) reason.

FINtastic · 12-05-2008, 01:52 AM

LeBron
Wade
Bosh
Carmelo
TJ Ford
Kaman
Barbosa

Those are the only seven players I could possibly conceive of taking higher than Howard in that draft. And I'm being generous by including Barbosa in that list because I'm not sure how many teams would agree with taking Barbosa over Howard. So I'm not sure why you think selecting Howard at eight is a stretch.

chumdawg · 12-05-2008, 01:55 AM

Diaw goes before Howard every time.

FINtastic · 12-05-2008, 01:58 AM

Not unless teams are looking for a soft, inconsistent all-around player.

chumdawg · 12-05-2008, 02:00 AM

Unless they are, or unless they aren't?

FINtastic · 12-05-2008, 02:02 AM

I don't know I may have screwed up the grammar. Regardless even a lot of Suns fans hate the guy because of his inconsistency. And these are the homers.

chumdawg · 12-05-2008, 02:02 AM

Lol...that's not what I meant, bro.

particleman · 12-05-2008, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

He'd go somewhere around 10, and not a whole lot better than he did at his position. In fact, if you excuse the Euros who didn't make it, he went about where he was supposed to at his position.

I'm not sure it isn't damning with faint praise to say that five years later a guy would have gone #10 or so in the draft.

Really? So, excusing "the Euros who didn't make it"... out of Travis Outlaw, Sasha Pavlovic, Boris Diaw, Mickael Pietrus, Reece Gaines, and Jarvis Hayes, which do you think were supposed to have gone ahead of Howard? By my count, Howard went about nine spots to low at his position.

I'm also curious as to which 9 players you'd put ahead of him. James, Wade, Anthony, Bosh, West, and maybe Kaman would go ahead of Howard... I'm struggling to find three more...

dirno2000 · 12-05-2008, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Diaw goes before Howard every time.

I'm sure you have ten different ways to qualify that ridiculous statement. If Diaw had this if Josh played somewhere else blah blah blah.

After 5 years in the league your game dictates your status and Diaw's status is an overpaid afterthought. The 8th leading scorer on a ship that appears to be sinking. You know as well as I do that if we offered Josh straight up for him Kerr would accept the deal before we could hang up the phone.

grndmstr_c · 12-05-2008, 02:10 AM

CD, I'm sorry, but I don't buy that argument at all. For one thing, you're completely dismissing the critical point here, namely that those considerations that kept teams from drafting him earlier in the first would NOT keep them from drafting him much higher if they had the benefit of hindsight over his career-to-date. For the love of god the guy's been an all-star. Beyond that, you're completely overlooking just how good that draft was. There are a lot of very good players in this league who would be passed over for LeBron, Wade, Bosh, and Melo.

You're going to have to tell me who these other six players are who would be chosen ahead of Josh, too. I can see arguments for Ford, Kaman, and Williams, but that's it (and honestly, I think Josh is a better player than any of them - it's only on positional grounds that you can hope to make a convincing case that those three would have been picked ahead of him as far as I'm concerned).

chumdawg · 12-05-2008, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

You know as well as I do that if we offered Josh straight up for him Kerr would accept the deal before we could hang up the phone.

I wish he would. Diaw would be a tremendous fit on this team.

particleman · 12-05-2008, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I wish he would. Diaw would be a tremendous fit on this team.

Next you're going to tell us we should bench Jason Kidd and start JJ Barea so he can develop into the 30ppg 10ast PG he would be if given the minutes...

chumdawg · 12-05-2008, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

CD, I'm sorry, but I don't buy that argument at all. For one thing, you're completely dismissing the critical point here, namely that those considerations that kept teams from drafting him earlier in the first would NOT keep them from drafting him much higher if they had the benefit of hindsight over his career-to-date. For the love of god the guy's been an all-star. Beyond that, you're completely overlooking just how good that draft was. There are a lot of very good players in this league who would be passed over for LeBron, Wade, Bosh, and Melo.

You're going to have to tell me who these other six players are who would be chosen ahead of Josh, too. I can see arguments for Ford, Kaman, and Williams, but that's it (and honestly, I think Josh is a better player than any of them - it's only on positional grounds that you can hope to make a convincing case that those three would have been picked ahead of him as far as I'm concerned).

Perhaps a better way of framing the story is to ask who the next best five guys are who would go after Josh Howard.

Show me the studs he is beating out, in other words.

particleman · 12-05-2008, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Perhaps a better way of framing the story is to ask who the next best five guys are who would go after Josh Howard.

Show me the studs he is beating out, in other words.

So the best way to frame the story is to completely change your premise?

dirno2000 · 12-05-2008, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I wish he would. Diaw would be a tremendous fit on this team.

Where?

And you talk about wanting to win vs. playing for self, the year after Diaw signed his extension he came in over weight.

Honestly sometimes I think you throw this stuff out there to keep the board active after midnight knowing we'll get sucked in.

dirno2000 · 12-05-2008, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Well, honestly, Howard is not the best at learning a new system. Or learning much of anything.

There as an article in the DMN that relayed an anecdote about Dirk forgetting a play a few weeks back. Is he learning impaired too?

Quote:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Howard slid in the draft because Howard is nowhere near smart. It's why he underperformed on his SAT's and why he underperformed in college and (something that contributed to) the kind of player that he is today. Josh Howard is not anywhere near a smart guy.

Josh was ACC player of the year. By what standard did he underachieve? He wasn't a McDonalds All-American or anything.

How smart do you think Kidd is? I don't see any connection between book smarts and basketball smarts. You are trying to demean him. As a player and as a person.

chumdawg · 12-05-2008, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by particleman

So the best way to frame the story is to completely change your premise?

My premise was that he is nowhere near the quality of basketball player that some people seem to think he is. I'm doing my best to try to make that case. If you think it says something great about him that you think he should have gone six or eight or whatever in that draft, tell me who the players are that he is that much better than.

In other words, I am saying that even if he would go eight in that draft, what does that say about his relative skills?

The guy is a dime a dozen. It doesn't help that he is dumber than a box of rocks.

chumdawg · 12-05-2008, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Josh was ACC player of the year. By what standard did he underachieve? He wasn't a McDonalds All-American or anything.

I wasn't talking about his athletic performance. I was talking about his SAT's and such. Why did the ACC Player of the Year get passed by so many teams? It's because the rap on him was that he...wasn't that smart, let's just say.

Quote:

How smart do you think Kidd is? I don't see any connection between book smarts and basketball smarts. You are trying to demean him. As a player and as a person.

I think Kidd is very smart. Extraordinarily smart. And yes, I am indeed trying to demean Howard. But only as a player. As a person, he is none of my business.

Caseman · 12-05-2008, 02:41 AM

nip nip

chumdawg · 12-05-2008, 02:43 AM

Hey, Dirno, you remember when Parcells was talking about how he had brought in a specialist to help him with how people learn? Remember when he told that story about how some people are "visual," and you have to walk them through the plays in person as opposed to giving them a playbook?

Did you figure out that he was talking about Tyson Thompson? Tyson Thompson didn't make it in the league because he couldn't learn how to pass block. Goodness knows that he could take a ball and run with it.

On the pro level, there is a whole lot more than "court smarts" or "field smarts."

DevinHarriswillstart · 12-05-2008, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Maybe Howard needs to be permanently gone. We seem to be doing much better without him.

You'd really rather keep seeing Deavon George starting? Really?

ty · 12-05-2008, 02:47 AM

Come on guys. Josh Howard hates America.

particleman · 12-05-2008, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

My premise was that he is nowhere near the quality of basketball player that some people seem to think he is. I'm doing my best to try to make that case. If you think it says something great about him that you think he should have gone six or eight or whatever in that draft, tell me who the players are that he is that much better than.

In other words, I am saying that even if he would go eight in that draft, what does that say about his relative skills?

The guy is a dime a dozen. It doesn't help that he is dumber than a box of rocks.

I still say it's a silly premise and a pointless way to frame it. I never made the argument that draft position is a great determing factor of how good a player is, you were the one who brought it up. Some drafts are stronger than others, and the distribution of talent is obviously different from year to year. I simply thought your statements that he went where he was supposed to at his position and that he would be a borderline top ten pick were ridiculous.

I don't think anyone here is making the case that Josh Howard is a perennial all-star. But he is a borderline all-star who fills some definite needs for this team. Your argument that he stalls the offense I believe is unfair given the sampling. Sure he stalled our offense at times over the past couple of years because we were running an isolation offense. EVERYONE stalled the offense when we got set (Even a stud like Boris Diaw would have had trouble being a playmaker in that offense!!). And everyone looked bad in our offense earlier this year because the motion offense wasn't clicking with these guys. The offense has changed a lot over the past couple of weeks (in a way that I think will benefit Howard's game), let's see how Josh fits in when he gets back and then decide whether or not we're better without him.

chumdawg · 12-05-2008, 03:00 AM

I don't agree that he's a borderline All-Star player. The team does, though, of course need some punch from the wing. If enough other GM's agree with you about his All-Star abilities, then a shrewd GM would be able to deal him for a package that would complement our roster much better than he does.

DevinHarriswillstart · 12-05-2008, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Well, honestly, Howard is not the best at learning a new system. Or learning much of anything. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Howard slid in the draft because Howard is nowhere near smart. It's why he underperformed on his SAT's and why he underperformed in college and (something that contributed to) the kind of player that he is today. Josh Howard is not anywhere near a smart guy.

He's playing in a league where everyone is athletic, where everyone can do most of the things he can do. He slid in the draft because he's not smart enough to get anything more out of his talents than the physical talent brings alone.

I don't mean to demean him. But this is a league of professionals, the best of the best...and again, there's a good reason why so many teams passed on him.

I'm calling a junk post here. When you start talking about a guy's SAT scores then I feel that you dig a deep hole.

Clearly you have a grudge from what Howard did this summer. If that is the case then talk about that. Don't start spouting some crap about a guy's SAT scores and relating that to being dumb.

grndmstr_c · 12-05-2008, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

The guy is a dime a dozen.

If you really think this..., I don't know what to say. That statement is about as patently inaccurate as they come.

dirno2000 · 12-05-2008, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

I'm calling a junk post here. When you start talking about a guy's SAT scores then I feel that you dig a deep hole.

Clearly you have a grudge from what Howard did this summer. If that is the case then talk about that. Don't start spouting some crap about a guy's SAT scores and relating that to being dumb.

Exactly. I've been watching the draft for as long as I can remember and I've never heard of a player dropping because the league thought he was dumb...not once.

This is a transparent attempt to belittle him.

grndmstr_c · 12-05-2008, 03:15 AM

And another thing, CD. Are you really trying to argue that the fact that Josh Howard is worlds better than most of the guys who were drafted ahead of him should be taken as evidence that he's not a very good player? Really?

Caseman · 12-05-2008, 03:19 AM

And another thing CD, you are wrong and I am right.

chumdawg · 12-05-2008, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

And another thing, CD. Are you really trying to argue that the fact that Josh Howard is worlds better than most of the guys who were drafted ahead of him should be taken as evidence that he's not a very good player? Really?

Not at all. I'm just saying that where he got drafted no longer qualifies as a big surprise--as one time folks thought it was.

DevinHarriswillstart · 12-05-2008, 03:24 AM

A lot of people on these boards pull this Chum stuff though.

Whenever we win, I see more than one say stuff like "well see, Howard is expendable."

Maybe we just have good coaches who know how to plug in the hole left. Ragging on Howard like "we don't need him" just because we have won without him is ridiculous.

If you consider how many different starting line-ups the team has had since his injury I think speaks volumes. Noone was been good enough or injury free enough or consistent enough to start in his place.

chumdawg · 12-05-2008, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Exactly. I've been watching the draft for as long as I can remember and I've never heard of a player dropping because the league thought he was dumb...not once.

This is a transparent attempt to belittle him.

Once again, I'm afraid I haven't made myself clear. I'm not trying to belittle him transparently. I'm trying to be very up front about it. I think Josh Howard is as dumb as a box of rocks. I think that's why some teams passed on him in the draft. I think that's why he's done many of the unproductive things he has done in his Mavericks career. I think that's why he is nowhere near as good a player as his athletic abilities would allow for. How can I make this more clear?

If Howard didn't slide because he is dumb, then why did he slide? You can say "not a team player" or any other euphemism you like, but that still means that he is dumb.

DevinHarriswillstart · 12-05-2008, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Once again, I'm afraid I haven't made myself clear. I'm not trying to belittle him transparently. I'm trying to be very up front about it. I think Josh Howard is as dumb as a box of rocks. I think that's why some teams passed on him in the draft. I think that's why he's done many of the unproductive things he has done in his Mavericks career. I think that's why he is nowhere near as good a player as his athletic abilities would allow for. How can I make this more clear?

If Howard didn't slide because he is dumb, then why did he slide? You can say "not a team player" or any other euphemism you like, but that still means that he is dumb.

grndmstr_c · 12-05-2008, 03:33 AM

Josh slid because teams questioned his decision making AND because they didn't think he had the talent to be worth it. Were they right about his decision making? To some extent, yes, though we can at least hope those days are behind him (as I am inclined to do so long as he's a Maverick). But were they right about his talent? Not even close, and I honestly cannot believe that you don't see that.

LonghornDub · 12-05-2008, 03:33 AM

I don't think Howard's particularly dumb in the grand scheme of the NBA (or even professional athletics as a whole), but he is sort of an odd-man out on this team in that regard. The Mavs' core, aside from Howard, consists entirely of high-IQ guys. Kidd has one of the best b-ball IQ's I've ever seen. Dirk is up there. Terry always, always knows exactly what to do. Hell, even Damp has some serious b-ball IQ in that noggin.

Howard always kinda felt like the odd-man out to me, like everybody else but him was on the same page.

chumdawg · 12-05-2008, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Josh slid because teams questioned his decision making AND because they didn't think he had the talent to be worth it. Were they right about his decision making? To some extent, yes, though we can at least hope those days are behind him (as I am inclined to do so long as he's a Maverick). But were they right about his talent? Not even close, and I honestly cannot believe that you don't see that.

Two questions for you:

1) If you were a coach, would Josh Howard be a player you could trust?

2) What do you think is the reason for the marked trend where Howard shows up early in games and disappears late?

grndmstr_c · 12-05-2008, 04:02 AM

1) I'd do my best to find a niche for him, that's for damn sure. It wouldn't be as a first option on a ton of plays. I still want stuff going through Dirk/JET/Kidd, because I trust those guys more (not to put points on the board so much as to make the good decisions with the ball), but I trust Josh to rebound at a high level for his position, to convert a variety of scoring chances (including busted plays) with an efficiency that outstrips most of the rest of the roster, and to continue to provide a flexible defender (by which I don't mean anything like a stopper) who can play in both conventional and unconventional lineups.

2) I don't know. Maybe Avery. Maybe a lack of focus. Maybe a difficulty adapting to changing game plans. Probably all of that and more. At least he starts games well. If you're trying to figure out whether I'm staunchly in favor of not trading him or something, I don't fall in that category at all. I'd happily trade him for the right kind of player. I just try to maintain enough good sense in spite of my occasional (and occasionally predictable) dissatisfaction with Josh to recognize that he's still considerably more effective than the guys who've been filling his spot in the starting lineup since his injury.

cinemablend · 12-05-2008, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ddh33

It sure is fun to watch a team overachieve. I don't mean that as an insult to these Mavs, but I just don't think they are as talented as a lot of the teams they are playing. But they are playing smarter and harder, and that makes a ton of difference. I find this team really easy to root for.

The Suns sure don't look the same, do they? I know the Mavs don't either, but the difference is so stark when you watch the Suns play.

Dirk was a beast tonight. The guy was on-fire with his shooting, and he was all the difference in the game. He was easily the best player on the floor, and Suns had no answer for him. I know there was some talk amongst fans today about whether or not they would take Amare over Dirk, and you can feel free to call me a homer, but I would take Dirk every single time. Tonight was a pretty good example of why.

Erick Dampier was a beast tonight too. He clearly outplayed Shaq, and he really acnhored this team. I loved his defense and work on the boards, and his hustle helped him with his offense too. Just a great lift from him.

Who saw JJ Barea being a huge part of this team's success? You might have predicted JJ being a good backup point guard, but I don't think anyone expected this. JJ kind of took this game over. They actually gave him the ball and let him run the offense in the fourth quarter, even though Kidd was on the floor with him. JJ gets into the lane almost at will, and he has really energized this team.

Who doesn't love Jason Terry? The guy gets you 20 points off the bench every single night. He's been a great player for this franchise, and I love this role for him.

I'm high on Shawne Williams too. I really like that young man. He has a great NBA body, and he makes an impact on the court. I really liked his defense and work on the boards tonight. He plays big when he needs to, and in case anyone was wondering about his "skills", the guy plays point guard in garbage time, brings the ball up the floor with ease against pressure, dribbles to the free throw area and hits a jumper that looks effortless. I still think he's going to help this team.

And along those lines, I love how Rick Carlisle has manufactured depth for this team. There has been a lot of talk about this team's depth over the years, and I thought most of it was empty talk. Carlisle is playing to his guys strengths, mixing and matching, and getting guys to produce. Like I said earlier, I don't think the Mavs are more talented than the teams they are beating, but they are sure playing a better brand of basketball.

And that brings me to Jason Kidd. I thought Kidd was great again tonight. The stat line just does not do him justice. He had several steals and a bunch more deflections. He was a defensive monster against everyone, and he did some impressive work against Amare when he got switched on to him. I enjoy watching him play, and I think he's helping this team a lot.

ddh... SO good to see you back doing recaps man. I've missed them. You should be starting these threads.

dangirwin · 12-05-2008, 07:36 AM

I'd find Josh a niche...in Miami for Shawn Marion.

d

jthig32 · 12-05-2008, 08:05 AM

Dirno, just save your breath (er..keystrokes). You know as well as I do it's futile. If Chum is still sticking to his "position" that Diaw is a better player then you know it's not even worth the trouble.