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Old 02-11-2023, 01:33 PM   #1
Thespiralgoeson
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Default The Josh Green/Jaden Hardy emergence thread

The Kyrie trade has understandably gotten all of the attention in the Mavericks' world right now. And I've allowed myself to be cautiously optimistic about acquiring the most polarizing player in the league (and that's putting it nicely.) But what I have absolutely no reservations or apprehensions about, and I am unreservedly thrilled about is the full-blown breakout season of Josh Green, and the sheer talent and enormous potential of Jaden Hardy.

I'll admit, I have been a very harsh critic of Green's over the past few years. When he showed so little progress from year one to year two, and when I didn't see immediate and dramatic improvement in year three, I had all but given up on him and thought drafting him was a wasted pick. It of course became a much tougher pill to swallow seeing multiple players drafted after him turning out to be borderline stars. But I guess it was silly of me to give up on player when he was only 21 or 22. I'm thrilled to be wrong, because the guy has developed into a valuable NBA player on both ends of the court.

And we all knew Jaden Hardy had talent. But I thought he was so raw that it would be at least until year two before we saw him get meaningful minutes, let alone contribute anything. But here we see the flashes of brilliance and meaningful contribution already. The kid is ahead of schedule.

For most of this season I had gotten quite pessimistic about the Mavs' future. But with these two young players showing so much potential, I've suddenly become optimistic and quite excited again.

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Old 02-11-2023, 01:57 PM   #2
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Josh and Jaden are why I have no problems giving Kyrie the extension he wants. Say he wants out in 1-2 years, ok fine... We just saw other teams still want him, and would trade for him. Jaden's floor to me is a microwave off the bench. Josh's floor is what he is already... 3 and d guy who can be the 3rd ball handler? How many of those guys even exist?

They are 20 and 22yrs old and both seem to have the mindset to be the best through work effort. If it doesn't work with Kyrie in a year or 2, assuming they retain him, I wonder what these 2 will be at that point in time because perhaps it's not so painful to trade him.

Specific to Green- Friend of mine and I rly wanted to find a way to get OG here as he's such a good fit for this team... but when he mentioned including Green I was like... No... He's 22 and he looks like he has a mile of growth left so why would I ever do that? Imagine saying that a year ago. Small sample size but the results are encouraging and something to be excited about- He's averaging 20/3/5 with great defense high energy and efficiency over his last 3 now that he's not stuck behind DFS(Hardy btw is averaging 17/2/3 in just like 19mins a game).
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Old 02-11-2023, 03:59 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson View Post
Josh and Jaden are why I have no problems giving Kyrie the extension he wants. Say he wants out in 1-2 years, ok fine... We just saw other teams still want him, and would trade for him. Jaden's floor to me is a microwave off the bench. Josh's floor is what he is already... 3 and d guy who can be the 3rd ball handler? How many of those guys even exist?

They are 20 and 22yrs old and both seem to have the mindset to be the best through work effort. If it doesn't work with Kyrie in a year or 2, assuming they retain him, I wonder what these 2 will be at that point in time because perhaps it's not so painful to trade him.

Specific to Green- Friend of mine and I rly wanted to find a way to get OG here as he's such a good fit for this team... but when he mentioned including Green I was like... No... He's 22 and he looks like he has a mile of growth left so why would I ever do that? Imagine saying that a year ago. Small sample size but the results are encouraging and something to be excited about- He's averaging 20/3/5 with great defense high energy and efficiency over his last 3 now that he's not stuck behind DFS(Hardy btw is averaging 17/2/3 in just like 19mins a game).
They are both crazy athletic. When you are able to run them along side Doncic and Irving, they will get a lot of open looks. Green becomes the lead defender. I would have a hard time trading either if a Top 10 player is not coming back.
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Old 02-11-2023, 06:03 PM   #4
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Green is 2.5 years younger than OG. In two seasons we will be so grateful we didn't make that move.
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Old 02-11-2023, 06:38 PM   #5
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Prior to this season most of the talk was how the mavs whiffed on guys like Bey, Maxey, and Bane. Green was always a risk - that his floor was low and that he wouldn't approach his ceiling. Maybe it's still too early to bring this up, but what's everyone feeling now? I think he's clearly surpassed Bey who's already been traded. He's definitely closed the gap on Maxey and Bane.

Green has improved his moves off the drive - before it was just head down and some crazy jump pass which merely gave glimpses of his ability. He's shown ability however to knock down mid range jumpers, as well as a variety of floaters/jump stops/fadeaways. Seems to have better body control and has learned to absorb/initiate contact and still get a good shot up.

He's improved his 3pt shooting consistency and willingness to pull the trigger.
FT shooting has improved year by year - up to 74% from 69% the year before.

I've seen him finish with his left a few times close to the basket.

What are his next areas of improvement? Left hand dribble. Continue to shoot the 3. Finish with authority. What else?
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Old 02-11-2023, 07:11 PM   #6
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Hardy could very easily fill the JET/NVE role soon if he continues on this pace.
Gotta work on that defense though. But then neither of those two were much for defense.

Green has taken a huge leap to the next level and hopefully there are a few more levels for him to elevate.

Changed my stance on the Kyrie move to something more positive, but I'm more intrigued and excited about the rapid development of Hardy and Green and the impact they are currently having on the team.
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Old 02-12-2023, 01:07 AM   #7
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I love that the evening I make this thread, Green totally crazy balls out and has a 23 point game. Sucks that the bad still a loss, but I kind of expected that, being a second game of a back to back on the road.
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Old 02-16-2023, 01:35 AM   #8
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Wanted to hold off a few games before posting my thoughts about those two.

Green isn't the same player with Luka on the floor that he is with Kyrie on the floor.

He just becomes so stationery with Luka as opposed to being that extra ball handler he was with Kyrie.

Defensively, he just seems to have not been as effective as I thought he was and maybe it has more to do with Kidd playing him vs bigger players because the Mavs are forced to play small a lot.

I think he's the only guy on the roster who has a slight chance to stay in front of quick PG's. But overall, you can clearly see he's not on DFS level in terms of defending 1-4.

I can't believe I'm going to say this but Green might be best off the bench again and used primarily with Kyrie when Luka rest. That way he can get out run with Kyrie and also be a ball handler who likes to attack the rim or drive and kick out. He doesn't seem to get that chance with Luka but I understand why since Luka will control the ball a lot by himself.

As for Hardy I'm trying to be open minded about the guy but right now I think the other guy Wright seems to play more under control than Hardy. Hardy defensively kills Dallas because he gets lost a lot on rotations and guys kill him repeatedly with movement off the ball because loses them.

I personally don't think he's going to play as much in the playoffs because it's not just his defense it's his passing and ball handling to....

can't risk having him turn the ball over like he does when he's trying to be the ball handler. I think next year he might make a leap but this year he's too mistake prone to trust in the playoffs.

Maybe they will both look better after the break, maybe Kidd will decide to utilize them most with Kyrie since they both like to get up and down the floor. But in the playoffs when the games slow down and become more halfcourt I just don't think their strengths fit with Luka.

Luka is more built to play with stationery spot up shooters in a slow pace offensive system and that is not Hardy and Green's style of play.

I hate to say it but we are going to see Bullock and THJ both in the starting lineup come playoff time unless by some miracle Holiday performs well and earns minutes as that DFS replacement. He can actually defend 1-4 so I think we all should keep our fingers crossed that he becomes the starter eventually over THJ.
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Old 02-16-2023, 04:05 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas41 View Post
Wanted to hold off a few games before posting my thoughts about those two.

Green isn't the same player with Luka on the floor that he is with Kyrie on the floor.

He just becomes so stationery with Luka as opposed to being that extra ball handler he was with Kyrie.

Defensively, he just seems to have not been as effective as I thought he was and maybe it has more to do with Kidd playing him vs bigger players because the Mavs are forced to play small a lot.

I think he's the only guy on the roster who has a slight chance to stay in front of quick PG's. But overall, you can clearly see he's not on DFS level in terms of defending 1-4.

I can't believe I'm going to say this but Green might be best off the bench again and used primarily with Kyrie when Luka rest. That way he can get out run with Kyrie and also be a ball handler who likes to attack the rim or drive and kick out. He doesn't seem to get that chance with Luka but I understand why since Luka will control the ball a lot by himself.

As for Hardy I'm trying to be open minded about the guy but right now I think the other guy Wright seems to play more under control than Hardy. Hardy defensively kills Dallas because he gets lost a lot on rotations and guys kill him repeatedly with movement off the ball because loses them.

I personally don't think he's going to play as much in the playoffs because it's not just his defense it's his passing and ball handling to....

can't risk having him turn the ball over like he does when he's trying to be the ball handler. I think next year he might make a leap but this year he's too mistake prone to trust in the playoffs.

Maybe they will both look better after the break, maybe Kidd will decide to utilize them most with Kyrie since they both like to get up and down the floor. But in the playoffs when the games slow down and become more halfcourt I just don't think their strengths fit with Luka.

Luka is more built to play with stationery spot up shooters in a slow pace offensive system and that is not Hardy and Green's style of play.

I hate to say it but we are going to see Bullock and THJ both in the starting lineup come playoff time unless by some miracle Holiday performs well and earns minutes as that DFS replacement. He can actually defend 1-4 so I think we all should keep our fingers crossed that he becomes the starter eventually over THJ.
Green is shooting over 40% from three. He?s fine in a stationary shooting role, it just wastes some of his talents. Luka needs to learn to play with some extra tempo in the offense.
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Old 02-16-2023, 05:54 PM   #10
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Green is shooting over 40% from three. He?s fine in a stationary shooting role, it just wastes some of his talents. Luka needs to learn to play with some extra tempo in the offense.
Exactly.
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Old 02-17-2023, 10:10 AM   #11
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Luka + tempo
Team + tempo
Kidd + rotations

This maximizes this roster's potential which is about all we can do at this juncture. Luka can still put up big numbers in a style that balances the half court sets with the run and gun. The problem I see this team running into is that the defense has been so poor that it's tough to run when you allow high percentage shooting and simply not a good rebounding team.

Team needs to find a balance. I think the pieces are absolutely there to run more and more and you can still slow it down whenever you want.
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Old 02-23-2023, 01:49 PM   #12
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I've always liked Green's BBIQ and court vision and agressive play. Glad to see it finally pay off. His resume is pretty good even if it took 3 years. Considering he played one really good year at Arizona and entered the draft in COVID year maybe it is understandable. I thought maybe he should of played summer league instead olympics but it shows his talent that he made Aussie team and I'm expecting that experience was better for him than summer league ball.

Hardy was a steal. I was a bit worried about him after summer league and all those TO's. Not perfect but he seems to have cleaned it up. I think after another off season of working on his game, he could be really good scorer next year. 3 point shot is pure.

Mavs should try to get RJ Hampton on a minimum deal thru 23-24 but seems he will go to Pistons. I thought Frank N. who is still young was showing a lot of promise last year and his defnse is great. His 3 point shot has gone in tank and he will probably be gone after this season. So Hampton would be good young pickup, IMO.

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Old 03-30-2023, 02:15 PM   #13
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Josh Green = regression to the mean = slightly above replacement level player
Hardy = A keeper and future versatile piece
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