Cheap shot bowen finally acknowleged by the league. - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

FINtastic · 11-13-2006, 12:37 AM

Like I said, if he was actually interested in contesting the shot, he would have been trying to jump as high as he could. That wouldn't have resulted in his feet being as far apart as they ended up. Sorry, I don't see good tight defense in that video, just a subtle attempt to take someone out of the NBA for 2 weeks.

Dirkadirkastan · 11-13-2006, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavKikiNYC

As for post count---I've been HERE longer than you have, and have probably watched both the Mavericks and the NBA longer than you've been alive. So no offense if I don't take some Johnny-come-lately, bandwagonerring homer's suggestion to go post on a Spurs' board.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

rakesh.s · 11-13-2006, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavKikiNYC

Guess I'd just have to go with the people from the league who voted him to all those all-defensive teams.

As for post count---I've been HERE longer than you have, and have probably watched both the Mavericks and the NBA longer than you've been alive. So no offense if I don't take some Johnny-come-lately, bandwagonerring homer's suggestion to go post on a Spurs' board.

lol..i'm a johnny come lately. Some of us have a life outside of the internet and I've been here since '02. I re-registered in '03 when the boards changed.

All defense doesn't mean jack...Larry Hughes was on the all defensive team two years ago, too.

Anywho, enjoy the season, knicks fan..The fact that the league is reviewing this speaks for itself.

MavKikiNYC · 11-13-2006, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rakesh.s

All defense doesn't mean jack...

Get that crap out of here. You might want to take it to the realgm suns board..you might find one or two people that agree with you.

Dirkadirkastan · 11-13-2006, 01:30 AM

Does anyone else notice how Kiki never answers me? I wonder if I'm on someone's ignore list...

Dirkenstien · 11-13-2006, 01:32 AM

MavKikiNYC,

You have yet to respond to any argument in an informing or educational way. If you ever wish to be taken seriously you'll need to do better.

As of now you have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting.

dude1394 · 11-13-2006, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavKikiNYC

Jump-shooters hate to be crowded.

But mostly they don't like another player to put their feet under them so they could potentially lose their livelyhood.

dude1394 · 11-13-2006, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavKikiNYC

Chauncey then is the exception. However, he later DID lose to Bowen's Spurs.

Yeah, Ray Allen is a loser, a quitter...take your pick....beautiful stroke, but he hasn't been close to winning shi*t, and isn't likely to anytime soon.

I rarely write anything for the sake of being agreed with. And you're about 7, 249 posts short of being able to send me anywhere, but who's counting.

guess Stockman, Malone, Barkley and others h are whiney assess about something since they haven't won squat. I really do not understand why a players professional teams career has much to do with this argument. Somehow they are less honest because they haven't won championships??

MavKikiNYC · 11-13-2006, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

I really do not understand why a players professional teams career has much to do with this argument. Somehow they are less honest because they haven't won championships??

It has nothing to do with 'honesty'.

Think in terms of the Widow and the two mites---of having less, but giving proportionately more. Of having less talent, but giving more effort; of being less talented, but being more competitive.

I think that's a lot of the problem for players like Carter and Allen. They don't think that a lesser talent like Bowen belongs on the court with them; that he shouldn't be able to challenge them. And it frustrates them when through sheer effort and determination, he not only challenges them, but takes them out of their game. Bowen makes significant contributions, some clutch plays even, for championship teams, while a player like Carter fakes injuries in Toronto, and admits to not giving a full effort in order to force a trade.

Ray Allen? I've seen him wither often enough in pressure situations (not even playoff games) to know that he doesn't have Bowen's mental toughness, doesn't have the will to assert the talent that he has. He's a front runner and a high rider. He can be taken out of his game because he doesn't have the discipline or focus of a player like Bruce Bowen.

If either of them had Bowen's attitude and mental tenacity, they would be Jordan-like. But they don't. Instead, they skate by on physical talent, but fade (or choke) in the clutch. And when a player like Bowen comes along and makes things difficult for them, they whine about cheap shots. The reality is that Bowen out-competes them.

Would've been interesting to've seen a player like Bowen on last year's Mavs against the Heat. I don't think that he himself would've made the difference, but...if say a Josh Howard had a little more of Bowen's resolve, focus, discipline and toughness....who knows? Instead, Josh will probably spend the best years of his career getting by on his physical talent alone. Maybe he'll mature, but I don't see signs of it yet.

Like him or not, Bowen has yielded disproportionate results with his talent. He's a winner.

FWIW, here's what current NYK and former teammate Malik Rose said about Bowen:

Quote:

Former Spur Malik Rose chimed in with his thoughts, "I can honestly say I don't think he's a dirtyplayer, " said Malik Rose, Bowen's former teammate in San Antonio. "But that stuff happens a lot and he's the common denominator. But he works so hard on defense. When I played with him I thought those guys were all just crybabies. But being on the other end of it now, I don't know. But I still won't say he's a dirtyplayer."

dirno2000 · 11-13-2006, 02:27 AM

If the league is really looking into this, they shouldn't wrap the investigation before looking at Pat Riley and the Heat.

James Posey did this for the entire series, as did Shaq and Haslem to a lesser extent. Sometimes Posey wouldn't even leave the ground, he'd just slide a foot under Dirk.

dude1394 · 11-13-2006, 02:28 AM

Let's give a benefit of the doubt that he's even a dirty player. What if he's just a dangerous (to others) player? don't ou have to curtail that? It certainly appears that he almost go two knicks this week and I'm pretty sure others as well.

dude1394 · 11-13-2006, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

If the league is really looking into this, they shouldn't wrap the investigation before looking at Pat Riley and the Heat.

James Posey did this for the entire series, as did Shaq and Haslem to a lesser extent. Sometimes Posey wouldn't even leave the ground, he'd just slide a foot under Dirk.

I agree 100000000000% with you dirno. It ahappens to dirk quite a bit, just enough for dirk to know he has to fade some more or spead his legs or fall backwards.

Dirkadirkastan · 11-13-2006, 03:03 AM

I'm wondering if you're even seeing any of my posts so I will post the link again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Kiki, you keep making the same mistake. You judge Thomas's arguments based on reputation. You judge Bowen's actions based on reputation. Hell, you even judge the arguments of people in this forum based on age and how many posts they have! You'll never be objective until you disregard who's saying what and just look at the evidence. You think Wade deserved all his ref-love in the Finals because he's such a great player too?

Would someone quote my post in a subsequent response, please? I seriously wonder whether Kiki can see any of my posts.

Big Shot Rob · 11-13-2006, 03:05 AM

The fact is that Bowen is one of the toughest players playing defense in the NBA today. He does not back away from Kobe, Ray Allen, et al--he stays close to them and is a master in getting in their heads. With the exception of the playoffs last year, he has had some pretty good games against the Mavs in the past.

I do not believe that he is a dirty player, but I also am concerned if a disproportionate number of players get hurt by his defense. I know that once a player gets a reputation, its hard to shake.

For what its worth, Kobe Bryant has always said that Bowen is the toughtest player who has ever defended against him. The Knick player who was hurt, Francis, stated that he does not think that Bowen intended to hurt him.

This will always be a controversial topic. All I know is that if Bowen was a free agent at the end of this season, Cuban would love to add him to the Mav roster. And whether you guys want to admit it or not, if Bowen became a Maverick, the people that are here trashing him from here to kingdom come would welcome him with open arms.

Nash13 · 11-13-2006, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Shot Rob

The fact is that Bowen is one of the toughest players playing defense in the NBA today. He does not back away from Kobe, Ray Allen, et al--he stays close to them and is a master in getting in their heads. With the exception of the playoffs last year, he has had some pretty good games against the Mavs in the past.

I do not believe that he is a dirty player, but I also am concerned if a disproportionate number of players get hurt by his defense. I know that once a player gets a reputation, its hard to shake.

For what its worth, Kobe Bryant has always said that Bowen is the toughtest player who has ever defended against him. The Knick player who was hurt, Francis, stated that he does not think that Bowen intended to hurt him.

This will always be a controversial topic. All I know is that if Bowen was a free agent at the end of this season, Cuban would love to add him to the Mav roster. And whether you guys want to admit it or not, if Bowen became a Maverick, the people that are here trashing him from here to kingdom come would welcome him with open arms.

I generally like your post, but that's just pure crap.

I have a very hard time believing that. I highly doubt players intentionally fake injury and risk getting kicked out of games for fighting just because of a bruised ego. Many players have missed games b/c of him; not just stopped by bowen, but injured by bowen. I mean, i know you're a spurs fan and all, but it's not that hard to fathom.

And as far as what you said about players like Carter and Allen getting by on physical talent, that's even more crap. By those standards, you're putting the entire NBA on trial. Teams rely on players with offensive skills to score points and compete in games. Players like Carter and Allen are the reason bowen has a job. I'm pretty sure every guard could give up the "physical" talents to turn into a bowen-type player, then they wouldn't exist.

Big Shot Rob · 11-13-2006, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash13

I generally like your post, but that's just pure crap.

I have a very hard time believing that. I highly doubt players intentionally fake injury and risk getting kicked out of games for fighting just because of a bruised ego. Many players have missed games b/c of him; not just stopped by bowen, but injured by bowen. I mean, i know you're a spurs fan and all, but it's not that hard to fathom.

And as far as what you said about players like Carter and Allen getting by on physical talent, that's even more crap. By those standards, you're putting the entire NBA on trial. Teams rely on players with offensive skills to score points and compete in games. Players like Carter and Allen are the reason bowen has a job. I'm pretty sure every guard could give up the "physical" talents to turn into a bowen-type player, then they wouldn't exist.

I'm thinking that maybe you unintentionally merged my points with someone else's posts. I did not denigrate other players--what I meant simply is that Bowen plays very tough defense, He acquired a reputation for being a dirty player--and once you get a reputation in the NBA for anything, that reputation generally follows you and grows with time.

Like I said before--whether Bowen's tactics are dirty or not--I am concerned if a disproportiante number of players are getting hurt after playing against him. If that is the case--whether it is intentional or not, there is a problem, in my opinion. Logically, if I drive my car down the block at 90 mph because I am late for work and hit a child crossing the street, it is no defense that I did not intend to hurt the child but simply meant to get to work on time.

In Bowen's case, I think the question is whether his method of defense is reckless. His actions are not aimed at trying to hurt players. The question thus becomes--does his method of defending against opposing players place a degree of risk to the opponent that a reasonable person could should have known that his style would cause injury.

I don't know the answer to this. I am trying to be fair about this. I have a great deal of respect for Bruce amd do not believe that he defends players with the intent to cause them injury.

I do not believe this is the end of the inquiry, however. Maybe after the NBA front office takes a look at his pattern of play, we can have an answer once and for all because I hate to think that any player with the Spurs poses a danger to opposing players.

I stand by my earlier remarks, however. Mav fans would love to have him on their roster, regardless of what the NBA ultimately says about him.

twelli · 11-13-2006, 05:54 AM

Bowen looks as guilty as a guilty player can look.

Wonder if there is any statistic for number of sprained ankles caused by a player. That would be interesting to see.

Bowen probably will argue that as soon as a shot is released he turns to the basket to see if he can get the long rebound causing his left foot to come close to the shooter.

Next time I watch a game I will watch how other defenders move in this situation.

If a player does it on purpose, how dangerous could it be for himself? Could he end up with a broken foot?

capitalcity · 11-13-2006, 07:03 AM

Bruce Bowen is a dirty motherfucker.

capitalcity · 11-13-2006, 07:14 AM

Dirty.

http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24918&
http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24488&
http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24040&
http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21910&
http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20996&
http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20962&
http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15207&
http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14918&

Any position to the contrary is untenable.

Usually Lurkin · 11-13-2006, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Shot Rob

And whether you guys want to admit it or not, if Bowen became a Maverick, the people that are here trashing him from here to kingdom come would welcome him with open arms.

well, if he were kicking Ginobli in the back
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=260326025

and stepping underneath Tony Parker, you'd be trashing him as often as you could.

pulling shirts, pushing and shoving when the refs not looking, getting in an elbow dig wherever possible, smacking the arm for a hard foul on a layup, those are tough, borderline dirty defensive tactics that I can stomach, and some might admire. And occasionally letting your emotions get to you, or accidently fouling too hard I can forgive. But Bowen has a long history of doing stuff that looks like it was intentionally meant to hurt others: kicking people in the face, in the back, sliding a foot under them. He obviously hasn't been inclined to play in a more safe manner. Probably because he keeps getting rewarded for it.

Dirkenstien · 11-13-2006, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

well, if he were kicking Ginobli in the back
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=260326025

and stepping underneath Tony Parker, you'd be trashing him as often as you could.

pulling shirts, pushing and shoving when the refs not looking, getting in an elbow dig wherever possible, smacking the arm for a hard foul on a layup, those are tough, borderline dirty defensive tactics that I can stomach, and some might admire. And occasionally letting your emotions get to you, or accidently fouling too hard I can forgive. But Bowen has a long history of doing stuff that looks like it was intentionally meant to hurt others: kicking people in the face, in the back, sliding a foot under them. He obviously hasn't been inclined to play in a more safe manner. Probably because he keeps getting rewarded for it.

Absolutely Lurkin, he continues to do it because not only does he get away with it, but he gets rewarded for it. I'm glad Thomas had the balls to stand up and say something because this is now a window of national exposure to his dirty antics. Also in the videos, watch how everytime he is called out for it he starts pouting and acting like he has no idea what's going on? Yeah...he's perfected this craft and I think he knows exactly what he's doing and how to manipulate the situation to make him look like the victim.

Dirkenstien · 11-13-2006, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

I'm wondering if you're even seeing any of my posts so I will post the link again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Kiki, you keep making the same mistake. You judge Thomas's arguments based on reputation. You judge Bowen's actions based on reputation. Hell, you even judge the arguments of people in this forum based on age and how many posts they have! You'll never be objective until you disregard who's saying what and just look at the evidence. You think Wade deserved all his ref-love in the Finals because he's such a great player too?

Would someone quote my post in a subsequent response, please? I seriously wonder whether Kiki can see any of my posts.

Don't worry Dirkadirkastan, I know exactly what you mean. Mavkiki is just notorious for not being able to respond to a good post with anything worthy of reading.

Five-ofan · 11-13-2006, 09:46 AM

I never get tired of seeing this...More "clean" defense from bowen....

fluid.forty.one · 11-13-2006, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

I never get tired of seeing this...More "clean" defense from bowen....

LOL

Flacolaco · 11-13-2006, 10:00 AM

lol that's hilarious. We need more flying ninja shananigans in the NBA....

Dirkadirkastan · 11-13-2006, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

Don't worry Dirkadirkastan, I know exactly what you mean. Mavkiki is just notorious for not being able to respond to a good post with anything worthy of reading.

All right, thanks for the heads up. I was getting frustrated because I have had the same problem a couple of times in the political section too. But it seemed like Kiki was always quick to reply to everyone else's posts, even though I saw nothing uniquely good or bad in mine.

Usually Lurkin · 11-13-2006, 10:43 AM

I don't know how many times I've heard coaches stressing solid, fundamental defense, "lead with the feet" they always say, "lead with the feet."

MavKikiNYC · 11-13-2006, 10:55 AM

Isiah off hook
NBA OK on threat to Bowen
BY FRANK ISOLA

DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER I

Neither Isiah Thomas nor the Spurs' Bruce Bowen is expected to face further disciplinary action for their conduct during the Knicks' loss to San Antonio on Saturday, a league spokesman said yesterday.

Bowen accused Thomas of threatening him during the game, saying the coach said he would "break his neck." Thomas became upset because he felt Bowen was intentionally sticking his foot under Jamal Crawford as the Knick guard was leaving his feet to take a jump shot, a tactic that Bowen has been accused of by Vince Carter and Ray Allen. Both Thomas and Bowen were called for technical fouls.

Thomas also shouted to his players that the "next time (Bowen) does that, break his --- foot."

The Knicks, who were off yesterday, did not comment on Bowen's accusation.

The incident came one day after Thomas said before the Knicks-Rockets game how he would have reacted during his playing days if someone had used a similar method.

"I'd beat the --- out of somebody," Thomas said Friday. "Really, I would --- murder them. ... There's certain things you don't do."

When Spurs coach Gregg Popovich was informed of Thomas' remark prior to Saturday's game, he said: "That's kind of a Mike Tyson comment, a little bit over the edge possibly. I'm sure he's just frustrated."

After Thomas screamed at Bowen, he and Popovich exchanged heated words, with Popovich telling Thomas, "Don't talk to my players." (Popovich, a close friend of Larry Brown, testified in Brown's arbitration hearing against the Knicks in late September.)

On Saturday, Thomas waved off Popovich and uttered a profanity before turning back to the Spurs' coach and shouting, "Tell your player not to keep sticking his foot under my players." Both coaches had to be restrained by their assistants.

After the game, Thomas and Popovich met at midcourt, shook hands and came to an agreement that the flareup was simply the result of intensity and gamesmanship.

Tim Duncan, however, didn't see it that way. The Spurs' All-Star power forward sharply criticized Thomas for threatening Bowen and nearly creating an ugly scene.

"It's a bad situation when a coach puts himself in that position and goes after a player," Duncan said on Saturday. "It's very uncalled for. I don't know what his intentions were with that and we have bigger plans than trying to hurt somebody. I would hope that people would understand and respect that and obviously they don't."

Thomas maintains that his decision to challenge Bowen was two-fold: he was protecting his players while trying to motivate his tired and flat team, which was trailing by 13 eight minutes into the game. Under the circumstances, both reasons seemed valid.

Last Monday at the Garden, Steve Francis suffered a sprained left ankle when he landed on Bowen's foot after going up for a jump shot. Like the Crawford play, Bowen was not called for a foul. Francis, who has refused to call Bowen's actions dirty, has missed three straight games.

The Knicks asked the NBA to review a videotape, and the league said yesterday that Bowen would not be punished despite a league mandate to regulate such tactics.

An opposing team official believes the league needs to start calling that foul on Bowen.

"I watched the play where Francis was hurt and I thought it definitely should have been a foul," the official said. "That needs to be stopped."

Dirkenstien · 11-13-2006, 11:09 AM

Duncan: "It's a bad situation when a coach puts himself in that position and goes after a player. It's very uncalled for. I don't know what his intentions were with that and we have bigger plans than trying to hurt somebody. I would hope that people would understand and respect that and obviously they don't."

What an idiot. How were Thomas' actions uncalled for when he's trying to protect his players from further injury? Of course their overall plans are bigger than just to go out and hurt somebody, but you cannot convince me or the rest of the non-blind logical world that Bowen doesn't do it. Especially when that means his team gets closer to achieving that "bigger plan" because of his actions.

dude1394 · 11-13-2006, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavKikiNYC

The Knicks asked the NBA to review a videotape, and the league said yesterday that Bowen would not be punished despite a league mandate to regulate such tactics.

An opposing team official believes the league needs to start calling that foul on Bowen.

"I watched the play where Francis was hurt and I thought it definitely should have been a foul," the official said. "That needs to be stopped."

Pretty selective bolding there kiki.. Thought I would help you out. So at the end of all of this the official says that it's a bad play and needs to be stopped. The bruce bowen rule.

My contention is that a foul is not nearly enough of a penalty for endangering someone's livelyhood.

DelNegro · 11-13-2006, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

Duncan: "It's a bad situation when a coach puts himself in that position and goes after a player. It's very uncalled for. I don't know what his intentions were with that and we have bigger plans than trying to hurt somebody. I would hope that people would understand and respect that and obviously they don't."

What an idiot. How were Thomas' actions uncalled for when he's trying to protect his players from further injury? Of course their overall plans are bigger than just to go out and hurt somebody, but you cannot convince me or the rest of the non-blind logical world that Bowen doesn't do it. Especially when that means his team gets closer to achieving that "bigger plan" because of his actions.

You protect your players by talking to the refs, not by threatening the player directly or by telling your players to hurt someone. Basketball isn't hockey.

MavKikiNYC · 11-13-2006, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Pretty selective bolding there kiki.. Thought I would help you out. So at the end of all of this the official says that it's a bad play and needs to be stopped. The bruce bowen rule.

My contention is that a foul is not nearly enough of a penalty for endangering someone's livelyhood.

Let me help you with your context--that "official" was an anonymous NBA team functionary/executive, not an NBA referee.

dude1394 · 11-13-2006, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavKikiNYC

Let me help you with your context--that "official" was an anonymous NBA team functionary/executive, not an NBA referee.

cuban?

sike · 11-13-2006, 11:35 AM

the only guys who don't think Bowen are Spurs....and I bet if you got a couple drinks in 'em....

oh...wait......I mean the only NBA players who don't think Bowen is dirty...I didn't mean bias fans...

MavsX · 11-13-2006, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

lol that's hilarious. We need more flying ninja shananigans in the NBA....

hahhh

Usually Lurkin · 11-13-2006, 12:25 PM

uh, the league will not find anything wrong with the way Bowen plays (or anyone else who might use the same tactics). They don't care so much about the existence of dirty/unfair play as much as they care about the perception that it exists.

Dirkenstien · 11-13-2006, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DelNegro

You protect your players by talking to the refs, not by threatening the player directly or by telling your players to hurt someone. Basketball isn't hockey.

Plenty of coaches have complained to refs about Bowen's tactics with the result being no fouls called on Bowen and more players severely twisting their ankles. So I'll ask you again, is that really protecting your players?

I would sure as heck hope to the high heavens that if he were doing that to Dirk, AJ would do more than just try and handle the situation in a civil manner. No, it hasn't worked in the past and something needed to be done. For that I applaud Isiah.

Flacolaco · 11-13-2006, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DelNegro

You protect your players by talking to the refs, not by threatening the player directly or by telling your players to hurt someone. Basketball isn't hockey.

that's not done in hockey either. hockey players have a great respect for eachother, and while they will for sure go out looking to hit someone to send a message, the intent is never to HURT someone and I resent the implicaiton.

DelNegro · 11-13-2006, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

Plenty of coaches have complained to refs about Bowen's tactics with the result being no fouls called on Bowen and more players severely twisting their ankles. So I'll ask you again, is that really protecting your players?

I would sure as heck hope to the high heavens that if he were doing that to Dirk, AJ would do more than just try and handle the situation in a civil manner. No, it hasn't worked in the past and something needed to be done. For that I applaud Isiah.

So if I'm a coach and one of my players lands on Dirk's ankle and I feel that it was a dirty play on Dirk's part are you okay with me telling my players to go intentionally try to hurt him? Doesn't matter whether or not Dirk has a rep as a dirty player, by letting coaches take justice into their own hands I get to decide whether or not Dirk is guilty and I get to decide whether or not Dirk deserves to get injured because of it. Do you really want coaches to be making decisions like that?

DelNegro · 11-13-2006, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

that's not done in hockey either. hockey players have a great respect for eachother, and while they will for sure go out looking to hit someone to send a message, the intent is never to HURT someone and I resent the implicaiton.

I should have clarified. In hockey if someone crosses the line there will be a fight and that is a much different mechanism than taking a cheap shot during the course of play. The analogy I was trying to draw was that in hockey there is a way for players to police the game amongst themselves and in basketball there really isn't. No offense to hockey players was intended.