Chris Paul open to trade to Contender.

[ewills254]

Kidd is a PG not a SG & why would you trade Chandler for Okafor?

[mavErika]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I wouldn't just say it's not completely fair, I'd say it's completely unfair to expect them to do anything more than make repeated efforts to offer everything we have except the one guy who we're keeping.

There's reading the market, and then there's reading minds. When the Hornets tell you "no" over and over and over and you've offered everything you've got, it'd be unreasonable to sit around and insist to yourself that they still might change their mind anytime soon. It's especially unreasonable when you have an asset whose trade value only lasts for so much longer.

You hope (maybe even expect) they change their mind awhile down the road, but it'd be unreasonable under these circumstances to prepare for the contingency that a week or two later they do a complete 180.

I could add two more things that speak for the front office (if I remember the the chronology of events correctly):

- first the Hornets GM Bower was fired in part because he wouldn't stop entertaining the idea of getting Paul his wish and trade him away (btw, without him being as obviously disgruntled as he is now, NO then would have had much more leverage in trade talks than now)
- then TC was almost included in a three-team trade and shipped to Toronto, so when the Mavs jumped in at this point to acquire him and dump Carroll and Najera in the process (maybe the last chance to do so), vague pledges to finish the deal at some point later in the offseason wouldn't have been enough for Charlotte to walk away from that trade

With the secondary goal on mind of dumping some bad contracts to increase their willingness to acquire new ones in a future trade, and seemingly no way of getting a (Super-)Star player this offseason, the MBT had no longer control over the timing of such a deal, or at least not enough incentive to keep control over it.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Obviously, the Hornets have not changed position in the last week or two. It's Paul who has completely upped his bluff.

Fair or not, in scanning the Paul situation, I think the Mavs misread Paul's discontentment even if they read the Hornets' position correctly (who in their right mind would part with a 25 year old top 5 player if he wants to stay)..

I'm pessimistic, almost to the point of sarcastic, but let's use these much ballyhooed trade assets. Who the heck else are we trading 30M in expirings for?

Exactly, and I don't know how anyone can expect the Mavs front office to know what Chris Paul's state of discontentment is.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by sike

Chris Brusard is saying New York is CP3's location...Dallas is such an after thought on ESPN.

It does look like this rumor has a little backbone to it...doesn't it? If Paul gets traded elsewhere, then Cubes will have to come up with some HUGE spin on that one. No doubt about it.

edit: Spin on the fact that they might have spent Dust too early, that is. I believe they tried to get Paul, but it's very arguable how quickly they decided to cash Dust in.

[rabbitproof]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

Exactly, and I don't know how anyone can expect the Mavs front office to know what Chris Paul's state of discontentment is.

So nobody knew?

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

So nobody knew?

Uh, Chris Paul knew.

Who else do you think is going to know how upset he was? He had already voiced that he was interested in being traded, but apparently New Orleans had already taken this into account and still refused. I don't think anyone knew that he was suddenly going to up the level of his trade requests between now and the beginning of the regular season.

And seriously, what leverage does Chris Paul even have here? I still don't think this new development is going to change New Orleans' mind. I doubt they are going to even consider a trade until after the season has started. Short of Chris Paul rebelling and threatening to tank it out on the court, I don't think he has enough leverage to even worry about an offseason trade. Something has to change New Orleans' mind, and I don't think Chris Paul presenting a pretty little list to Hornets management and asking nicely will get it done.

[chumdawg]

Can't control what the Paul do.

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Can't control what the Paul do.

ya'll hilarious

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Can't control what the Paul do.

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

ya'll hilarious

It's crazy, man.

[SMC0007]

Fuh rurrl!

[jayC]

The off season would be a huge success if we could acquire Paul. Right now the mavericks have an incomplete off season. It would be nice to see Paul Chandler alley-oops. A Chris Paul, Dirk pick and roll would be pretty nice. Cuban , Dirk took a pay-cut for what to be in second place in the west. The name of the game is NBA championships CP3 would be a nice start.

[Flacolaco]

I just want to tell you all...that I am completely neutral on whether or not this merits discussion.

I have no opinion one way or the other.

This might really and truly merit discussion. Chris Paul could totally be a Maverick.

That's all I have to say.

[twelli]

Originally Posted by jayC

Dirk took a pay-cut for what to be in second place in the west. The name of the game is NBA championships CP3 would be a nice start.

Nice start? I would go so far as to say it would make us title condenders straight away.

[rabbitproof]

Someone on Twitter made a great point. Kidd was able to get his way out of NJ with over a year left on his deal.

I know I'm not being the nicest guy about this but you got to imagine in a hundred-million dollar decision centered around trading for Chris Paul, you had to have reached out to certain people, say agents or ex-teammates or ex-coaches, through your thousands of basketball channels and if you determined it was a no, okay. If it turns out to be a yes 12 days later, you sucked.

Again, this is only a brainfart is Chris Paul is traded.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by sike

Its been proven in recent playoff series that those two cannot be counted upon to play consistent 3rd fiddle. Unless you think Paul makes them better playoff performers.

How could he not? The problem last year was that there was no second fiddle.

And I don't really take one playoff series as definitive proof of anything.

[MavsX]

This is a really good read. It also makes me start to hate the NBA..it's almost like..what's the point of trying..

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.c...-arms-race.php

In 2007, the Spurs won their fourth title inside of a decade. They defeated a LeBron James-led Cavs team that featured Sasha Pavlovic as the fifth-leading scorer on the team. The arguable second-best team was the Phoenix Suns who would immediately begin a spiral based off of the hyper-reactive initial moves of Steve Kerr. The Mavericks were in there, with Josh Howard as a pivotal component, a player who now has yet to secure a team for next season.

The Spurs were masters of overcoming odds but were not considered dominant, despite their jewelry. There was parity, there was dilution, there was no true superpower.

And then the arms race began. In reality, we can trace all of this back to Joe Barry Carroll. Carroll was such an attractive first round pick that the Warriors traded the rights to the third-overall pick to Boston. While Carroll would wind up flittering in and out of the league and Italy, the Celtics would use that third-overall on Kevin McHale in 1980. 27 years later, McHale would trade Kevin Garnett to the Celtics for a platter of players, the crown jewel of which was just traded for a series of late first-round picks.

Boston acquired Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett to go along with Paul Pierce. And a new superpower was born. The Celtics' power was pretty evident from the start. Torching the league up and down. Until the new year. The Lakers, having barely survived a near-Kobe-trade-demand meltdown realized that they had to improve. That good wasn't good enough. And then somehow, the Grizzlies helped create Voltron 2. With Pau Gasol in place, the Lakers immediately became #1a in the league. This was in addition to Andrew Bynum, Derek Fisher, and Lamar Odom, mind you. Later, the Celtics would add Nate Robinson and Rasheed Wallace. The Lakers would add Ron Artest for the MLE.

Good? Good was now average. Great was now "pretty good." And elite was the standard.

And that's how it went for three years. The Cavs would try and add value players without ever going for the home run. The Nuggets and Mavs would each make moves they thought would bring them to the elite level. More and more you'd hear the phrases "what they need to beat the Lakers/Celtics." It was no longer about building a complete roster, it was imperative to get as much size and as much talent. That's always the goal of building a team, right? Previously the idea was one superstar, one supporting star, and then role players. Now you needed multiple superstars just to compete.

Which brings us to this summer. After three years of watching teams with that kind of starpower win titles while they wallowed with one-star teams, Chris Bosh, Dwyane Wade, and LeBron James elected to no longer stand by and watch other teams go to battle with that kind of firepower. They combined their forces and now have a team that should challenge those other elite teams. (Boston has to get old at some point, right? Right? Right?!)

And sure, the world hates them. Chicago. New York. New Jersey. Especially Cleveland, with the fire of a million suns. But past the terrible PR moves and the horrendous decision making and the woeful soundbites is a sense that these three aren't trendsetters. They're not doing anything unheard of. They're simply taking the game they've been handed and upping the stakes.

Which brings us to Chris Paul. Paul has been a model citizen for years. In 2008, with the Hornets pushing the Spurs to seven games, the future couldn't be brighter. But since then, he's watched two things. He's seen his own team spiral into the frustrating position Cleveland and Miami have been, and he's seen three of his best friends team up to combat the team of older veterans he's seen dominate the league. And Paul wants a piece. Paul understands the new world that Boston and LA have created, and wants a piece of it. Paul's not asking for a trade to anywhere with solid collections of talent. He wants to slide into a contender. He's seen the present, and the present means starpower.

Amar'e already made multiple pitches for another Big 3. The Magic are trying to formulate as such. And the Lakers and Celtics are still the favorites, along with the Heat. This arms race is in full swing. Driving up contract prices, making franchises desperate, and forcing small market superstars to position themselves on superteams.

Most blame selfishness, laziness, desperation for the behavior of this group of friends and their multi-star machinations. But in reality, they're simply products of their environment. Chris Pauls' potential trade was put in motion decades ago. You can even start with Joe Barry Carroll.

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

How could he not? The problem last year was that there was no second fiddle.

And I don't really take one playoff series as definitive proof of anything.

eh. I've seen more than enough playoff series where JT didn't show up as needed and Kidd just can't do much of anything in the half court other than spot up.

I'd do the move bc it would bring in a top 5(?) talent...but I'm not sold it would be a dynamic roster.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by sike

eh. I've seen more than enough playoff series where JT didn't show up as needed and Kidd just can't do much of anything in the half court other than spot up.

I'd do the move bc it would bring in a top 5(?) talent...but I'm not sold it would be a dynamic roster.

Spotting up would be exactly what you want from your off guard playing next to Paul.

Jet is certainly declining but most of his playoff failings have come when we've been depending on him as a second scorer. If Jet is your third scorer you're a pretty nice team.

[Eman]

This just shows how good a decision it was for the MBT to trade for Chandler instead of Jefferson!!!!!

If we traded for Al Jeff, we would have used up our first round picks and wouldn't likely be in the running for this opportunity.....New Orleans certainly wouldn't take Jefferson's bloated contract and no 1st's!

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by jthig32

How could he not? The problem last year was that there was no second fiddle.

And I don't really take one playoff series as definitive proof of anything.

There was more than one problem last year, that is for sure. To pinpoint it all down to not having a second fiddle is ridiculous.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

There was more than one problem last year, that is for sure. To pinpoint it all down to not having a second fiddle is ridiculous.

I don't think so. I think the Mavs have basically all the pieces you need except a second star (which is a big deal, obviously).

And I find it hard to believe that anyone could be the slightest bit reserved on how good this team would be if they added Chris Paul at the cost of nothing of any consequence other than Butler and Roddy.

Not to mention the fact that Okafor would be a better backup center than Chandler and Posey would have a role on this team (although somewhat duplicated by Marion).

It's all moot because it's not going to happen, but if we somehow swung a trade for Paul, Okafor, and Posey my excitement level would be on the same level as if we had acquired Wade, and only slightly less than it would have been for Lebron.

[mac222b]

if for some we could swing this, those TE's are going to be huge in fleshing out the roster

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Jet is certainly declining but most of his playoff failings have come when we've been depending on him as a second scorer.

I don't wish to belabor this point, but Josh "high as a kite" Howard?

[rabbitproof]

JET in his prime maybe would've been a good third fiddle, even a great one, now I think he'd be a slightly above average third fiddle. He'd be in the bottom half among the serious contenders I think. The third fiddles are:

-Ray Allen
-Bosh
-Manu/TP
-Harrington/Smith
-Odom? Or is it Bynum/Artest?

May not matter if we get a great second fiddle or if Dirk gets made the second fiddle.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I don't think so. I think the Mavs have basically all the pieces you need except a second star (which is a big deal, obviously).

And I find it hard to believe that anyone could be the slightest bit reserved on how good this team would be if they added Chris Paul at the cost of nothing of any consequence other than Butler and Roddy.

Not to mention the fact that Okafor would be a better backup center than Chandler and Posey would have a role on this team (although somewhat duplicated by Marion).

It's all moot because it's not going to happen, but if we somehow swung a trade for Paul, Okafor, and Posey my excitement level would be on the same level as if we had acquired Wade, and only slightly less than it would have been for Lebron.

A second star is a big deal but we needed much more than that. Thats pretty optimistic. Just saying a "second star" is so vague anyway.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by sike

I don't wish to belabor this point, but Josh "high as a kite" Howard?

Also a third scoring option pressed into the second scorer role at times.

Originally Posted by SMC0007

A second star is a big deal but we needed much more than that. Thats pretty optimistic. Just saying a "second star" is so vague anyway.

Well, I don't know what else to say other than I strongly disagree. This team has the stud franchise player, the defensive centers required to play next to him, the high level swing defender, and the spot up shooters. What it needs is a dynamic offense creator from swing/guard position.

Obviously "second star" is vague and would need to bring a specific skill set (as I just outlined above). But I most certainly think Chris Paul qualifies as that.

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Also a third scoring option pressed into the second scorer role at times.

Josh was clearly the second option for the bulk of his time as a Mav...a failed one, but still. JT has almost always been 3rd option during his stay in Dallas.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by sike

Josh was clearly the second option for the bulk of his time as a Mav...a failed one, but still. JT has almost always been 3rd option during his stay in Dallas.

I don't know. If we are talking about solely about offense, I think JET has technically had the bigger role for most of the Avery era. Considering how much we relied on the pick and pop when we really needed a basket, JET seemed to be the guy who I'd consider our second option.

But I guess this again hints at the problem. The fact that we are even arguing about whether JET and Josh were second fiddle shows that we never had a great one.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

A second star is a big deal but we needed much more than that. Thats pretty optimistic. Just saying a "second star" is so vague anyway.

Like?

Honestly, I don't see a lot of weaknesses on this team other than shooting guard. The real problem is that we have Dirk and a bunch of average players. If that becomes Dirk, Paul, and a bunch of average players, we've just launched ourselves into a serious contender.

And how is saying that the Mavericks need a second star optimistic? How many teams do you know with two genuine superstars on their roster? How easy is it to actually achieve that?

[SMC0007]

A PG that can penetrate and create offense. Also keep up with quick guards.

A low post presence for some easy attempts. When was the last time a team won it all and didn't have that? It doesn't happen very often.

A SG who can shoot, play defense, and penetrate.

...are a few

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

A PG that can penetrate and create offense. Also keep up with quick guards.

A low post presence for some easy attempts. When was the last time a team won it all and didn't have that? It doesn't happen very often.

A SG who can shoot, play defense, and penetrate.

...are a few

Seriously, how many teams have all of these things? And I honestly don't get why everyone clamors so much

The Lakers didn't have a PG that could penetrate, create offense, and keep up with quick guards.

I'm not sure I'd say the Celtics had a low post player that could create for some easy attempts.

I'm not sure who on the Bulls was that low post player that could create for some easy attempts, especially during those last three championships.

The problem is here that everyone gets stuck on their formulas for a championship, and thinks you need some stereotypical player in this role or that role. The fact of the matter is that it basically all comes down to talent. If the Mavericks were to somehow land a guy on the level of Chris Paul, they'd finally have that. The Mavericks failings all of these years weren't due to not having guys in the right roles. We simply have never had the talent to pull it (although we got darn close anyways).

[LonghornDub]

People are writing JET off a bit too quickly. His skills are most certainly on the decline. And, unfortunately, he hasn't performed well in the playoffs since 2006. He's not a first or second option. But when he's at his best, he's a legitimate third option. Yeah, it's not as good as having Odom, but we're not the Lakers.

I guess I'm just hesistant to believe that JET is "done" because he had a subpar season,when the season before that he was the best 6th Man in the league. It's possible his skills sharply declined that quicky and there's no turning back, but it's equally possible that he just had a subpar year.

As for the playoffs thing, it's really inexcusable. He's gotta play better when it counts. But I'll point out that the sample size isn't exactly large. We haven't been in many playoff series since 2006....

*edit* This obviously only refers to offense and scoring. JET is a defensive liability, as we all know. But with Marion, Kidd (most of the time), and the centers we have, that shouldn't be a dealbreaker.

[sike]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

People are writing JET off a bit too quickly. His skills are most certainly on the decline. And, unfortunately, he hasn't performed well in the playoffs since 2006. He's not a first or second option. But when he's at his best, he's a legitimate third option. Yeah, it's not as good as having Odom, but we're not the Lakers.

I guess I'm just hesistant to believe that JET is "done" because he had a subpar season,when the season before that he was the best 6th Man in the league. It's possible his skills sharply declined that quicky and there's no turning back, but it's equally possible that he just had a subpar year.

As for the playoffs thing, it's really inexcusable. He's gotta play better when it counts. But I'll point out that the sample size isn't exactly large. We haven't been in many playoff series since 2006....

*edit* This obviously only refers to offense and scoring. JET is a defensive liability, as we all know. But with Marion, Kidd (most of the time), and the centers we have, that shouldn't be a dealbreaker.

I agree with this...I just wonder if Paul were here would that resurrect JET to his deadly sniper status of a couples season's ago or would it sound the death knell for his time in big D. I totally agree that "The Good JT" is a viable 3rd scoring option...but how often to we get "The Good JT"? 45% of the time? (A fair question to counter my own is how often does the 3rd option have to be at his best?)

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

Seriously, how many teams have all of these things? And I honestly don't get why everyone clamors so much

The Lakers didn't have a PG that could penetrate, create offense, and keep up with quick guards.

I'm not sure I'd say the Celtics had a low post player that could create for some easy attempts.

I'm not sure who on the Bulls was that low post player that could create for some easy attempts, especially during those last three championships.

The problem is here that everyone gets stuck on their formulas for a championship, and thinks you need some stereotypical player in this role or that role. The fact of the matter is that it basically all comes down to talent. If the Mavericks were to somehow land a guy on the level of Chris Paul, they'd finally have that. The Mavericks failings all of these years weren't due to not having guys in the right roles. We simply have never had the talent to pull it (although we got darn close anyways).

My point was never that CP3 doesn't make us better and perhaps give us a better chance. It was that you can't sum it all up with, "our problem last year was we didn't have a second star." We have tried to have a second star for years now and it just hasn't been enough. Jet, Howard, Kidd, butler. I'm not saying I know or can chalk it up to 1 single thing. Perhaps there was more than one problem.

The more of those things you have, the higher our chances of winning it all are. The teams like LA, Boston, Orlando, Denver, Miami, perhaps S.A. are close. They all have a low post option, some better than others and most better than ours. Same thing with penetrators.

There hasn't been many teams that have won it all without a post presence. Chicago was the only team that you named that had significant success without a force of some sort down low and maybe that even depends on what you think of Dennis Rodman. But then again Jordan was the best player probably ever. The only other team that I can remember off the top of my head was Detroit and even with them Sheed provided some inside game.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by sike

I agree with this...I just wonder if Paul were here would that resurrect JET to his deadly sniper status of a couples season's ago or would it sound the death knoll for his time in big D. I totally agree that "The Good JT" is a viable 3rd scoring option...but how often to we get "The Good JT"? 45% of the time? (A fair question to counter my own is how often does the 3rd option have to be at his best?)

What is a death knoll??

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

What is a death knoll??

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by sike

I agree with this...I just wonder if Paul were here would that resurrect JET to his deadly sniper status of a couples season's ago or would it sound the death knoll for his time in big D. I totally agree that "The Good JT" is a viable 3rd scoring option...but how often to we get "The Good JT"? 45% of the time? (A fair question to counter my own is how often does the 3rd option have to be at his best?)

I don't even know what your post says..but you had me at death knoll.

[FINtastic]

The biggest problem with JET at this point is that he seems a bit superfluous. I think we have a very similar player in Roddy who is much younger and quite possibly better. We also have an interesting young guy in Dojo who I'd like to see get some minutes at least. Then you add in the fact that Caron Butler can't get all of his minutes at SF so needs to play a chunk of minutes at SG. So something's got to give and knowing Carlisle, it will probably end up with the young guys not getting the playing time they deserve and all the Dallas fans raging at JET.

I'm not as down on JET as a lot of people seem to be, but until we change the roster we have now, he seems to be getting in the way more than anything. Of course if we make a trade for Paul, we probably get rid of most of the guys standing in JET's way. I think in this situation, we can get definitely still get quite a bit out of JET and he instantly becomes much more valuable to the franchise.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

My point was never that CP3 doesn't make us better and perhaps give us a better chance. It was that you can't sum it all up with, "our problem last year was we didn't have a second star." We have tried to have a second star for years now and it just hasn't been enough. Jet, Howard, Kidd, butler. I'm not saying I know or can chalk it up to 1 single thing. Perhaps there was more than one problem.

The more of those things you have, the higher our chances of winning it all are. The teams like LA, Boston, Orlando, Denver, Miami, perhaps S.A. are close. They all have a low post option, some better than others and most better than ours. Same thing with penetrators.

There hasn't been many teams that have won it all without a post presence. Chicago was the only team that you named that had significant success without a force of some sort down low and maybe that even depends on what you think of Dennis Rodman. But then again Jordan was the best player probably ever. The only other team that I can remember off the top of my head was Detroit and even with them Sheed provided some inside game.

I think you are overrating the "post presence" some of these teams have. I'm assuming you are talking offensively here because the Mavericks aren't lacking defensively in the post (which is much more important in the grand scheme of things these days). Why does low post scoring matter so much when we have an efficient scorer in the high post like Dirk? In the end, this game comes down to whether you can put the ball in the basket efficiently. It's nice to have a guy that can do it down low because generally it's easier, but you can do it without that guy if you can put the ball in the basket from other areas.

And Chris Paul is going to solve your penetration problem singlehandedly. With Paul and Dojo on your roster (assuming we keep him), I don't think penetration will be a weakness.

[sike]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

I'm not as down on JET as a lot of people seem to be, but until we change the roster we have now, he seems to be getting in the way more than anything. Of course if we make a trade for Paul, we probably get rid of most of the guys standing in JET's way. I think in this situation, we can get definitely still get quite a bit out of JET and he instantly becomes much more valuable to the franchise.

I agree that JT and Paul shouldn't get in each other's way too often...