Chris Paul open to trade to Contender.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

I think you are overrating the "post presence" some of these teams have. I'm assuming you are talking offensively here because the Mavericks aren't lacking defensively in the post (which is much more important in the grand scheme of things these days). Why does low post scoring matter so much when we have an efficient scorer in the high post like Dirk? In the end, this game comes down to whether you can put the ball in the basket efficiently. It's nice to have a guy that can do it down low because generally it's easier, but you can do it without that guy if you can put the ball in the basket from other areas.

And Chris Paul is going to solve your penetration problem singlehandedly. With Paul and Dojo on your roster (assuming we keep him), I don't think penetration will be a weakness.

I don't think I'm overrating post presence. I haven't said that it is the absolute key to winning. I understand that it's important to have a high efficiency, But the high post just isn't the same as low post, more things come from a low post threat. The biggest one that most people are over looking is that it isn't always about getting the inside bucket. The open looks you generate elsewhere on the floor are better and more spaced out generally. You have a chance to get to the FT line a bit more as well.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by sike

I agree with this...I just wonder if Paul were here would that resurrect JET to his deadly sniper status of a couples season's ago or would it sound the death knell for his time in big D. I totally agree that "The Good JT" is a viable 3rd scoring option...but how often to we get "The Good JT"? 45% of the time? (A fair question to counter my own is how often does the 3rd option have to be at his best?)

Good points, and obviously the need for your 3rd option to be "on" all the time is even less when your first two options are both elite players.

I think FIN is right to say that JET is superfluous in some ways. To really make him superfluous, Roddy will need to develop the mid-range jumper (especially catching and shooting off screens and curls), since that to me has always been JET's greatest attribute. I know Roddy has a silky jumper, but I'd like to see a lot more of that from him. Maybe he's got it, I'd just like to see it.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by sike

Josh was clearly the second option for the bulk of his time as a Mav...a failed one, but still. JT has almost always been 3rd option during his stay in Dallas.

Well first of all I strongly disagree. Josh was the second scoring option for a very short period of time.

Secondly, I'm not sure why it matters which was in what position. Clearly neither of them was cut out to be a true second scorer on a title contender.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

A PG that can penetrate and create offense. Also keep up with quick guards.

A low post presence for some easy attempts. When was the last time a team won it all and didn't have that? It doesn't happen very often.

A SG who can shoot, play defense, and penetrate.

...are a few

I'm not sure why you need both a PG and a SG that can penetrate and create offense. You put Chris Paul on this team and all you need the SG to do is make threes and guard shooting guards (both things Kidd does very well).

Post presence, as I've said countless times on this board (and Fin already talked about) is overrated when it comes to this team. Dirk already gets easy shots and converts at an insanely efficient rate. Put another elite offensive player that is also highly efficient (Chris Paul is both) and you do not need a post presence.

[mac222b]

this Dell Demps character N.O. hired was a San Antonio guy, right. this cant possibly help our chances.

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Secondly, I'm not sure why it matters which was in what position. Clearly neither of them was cut out to be a true second scorer on a title contender.

My point was NEVER that JT was wasn't "cut out to be second scorer"...here was my point:
"Its been proven in recent playoff series that those two cannot be counted upon to play consistent 3rd fiddle."

I dont trust JT (or Kidd) to contribute as 3rd fiddle in the playoffs. That is what I've been saying.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by sike

My point was NEVER that JT was wasn't "cut out to be second scorer"...here was my point:
"Its been proven in recent playoff series that those two cannot be counted upon to play consistent 3rd fiddle."

I dont trust JT (or Kidd) to contribute as 3rd fiddle in the playoffs. That is what I've been saying.

Ok but the second fiddle in the equation is important. When Josh and Jet were here, they kind of took turns being quasi-second scorers, but neither of them had enough talent to do it properly, nor did they draw enough attention to make life easier for the third scorer in the equation.

My point is that if you get a true second superstar, that's going to make life infinitely easier for guys like Jet, who can truly just be role players instead of being counted on to pull the load every single night.

If Chris freaking Paul is playing with Dirk, Jet is more than fine as a third scoring option, considering what other pieces are also around. (IMO)

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

My point is that if you get a true second superstar, that's going to make life infinitely easier for guys like Jet, who can truly just be role players instead of being counted on to pull the load every single night.

If Chris freaking Paul is playing with Dirk, Jet is more than fine as a third scoring option, considering what other pieces are also around. (IMO)

I'm willing to admit that could and even should happen...I would be happy if JT got his game rejuvenated by CP3. That is all projecting, I was simply commenting on what we've seen.

Of course, this all is very pipedreamish...

[mavs777]

Ill post it here as well
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5405528
The New Orleans Hornets have yet to start entertaining trade offers for Chris Paul, but that hasn't stopped the superstar point guard from making exit plans.

The Orlando Magic have emerged as the top team on Paul's list of preferred destinations, replacing the New York Knicks, according to league sources.

While the Knicks are still high on Paul's list, he believes the Magic, with All-Star center Dwight Howard, would be a better fit. Paul also realizes Orlando has much more to offer New Orleans in a trade and therefore believes it is a more realistic destination than New York, according to the sources.

Paul will meet with Hornets president Hugh Weber, new general manager Dell Demps and new head coach Monty Williams to discuss the future direction of the club. The Hornets hope to convince Paul to give the new regime a chance, but sources say he is fully expected to present New Orleans with a list of teams he would like to be traded to.

In addition to Orlando and New York, Dallas and Portland are on Paul's list. The New Orleans Times-Picayune reported on Friday that Paul's agent Leon Rose reached out to all four teams this week.

While New Orleans currently has no plans to trade Paul, the club also realizes how problematic it would be to have Williams start his coaching career with a disgruntled star.

That's why the Hornets may indeed decide to trade Paul even though he has two years left on his contract. But New Orleans would not limit itself to the four clubs on Paul's list. Instead, the Hornets would look for the best deal for its franchise, according to league sources.

New Jersey and Charlotte are known to be among the many teams that would make offers for Paul. Some league sources believe New Orleans would insist that Hornets center Emeka Okafor, who has four years and $52 million left on his contract, be included in any deal for Paul.

Orlando is one of several teams that called New Orleans about trading for Paul earlier this summer, but the Hornets refused to consider moving the three-time all-star under former GM Jeff Bower. League executives are now wondering if that stance will change under Demps.

New Orleans has not listened to proposals yet, and most clubs will likely wait until after Monday's meeting to begin making offers. Orlando has not had trade discussions with the Hornets regarding Paul, according to sources.

Paul's desire to play in New York is largely tied to Carmelo Anthony, the Denver Nuggets star. Both players would like to team with new Knick Amare Stoudemire to form a Big Three that could rival Miami's trio of LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh.

But while such a scenario is possible, it will be difficult to pull off. First, Anthony must turn down Denver's three-year, $65 million extension offer, which is something most league insiders don't believe he will do. Then, the Knicks must put together a package for Paul that entices the Hornets without eating up all the future cap space they would use to sign Anthony as a free agent next summer. If the Knicks took back Okafor with Paul, signing Anthony as a free agent in 2011 would be impossible.

Beyond that, sources say New Orleans may be unlikely to send Paul to New York because so many other teams could present better offers.

Orlando, with point guard Jameer Nelson and former All-Star Vince Carter, who only has one year of guaranteed money left on his contract, is one such team. And a pairing of Paul and Howard would unquestionably make the Magic a title contender.

Chris Broussard is a senior NBA writer for ESPN The Magazine.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

People get their hopes up because if not Paul then who? There don't seem to be any other grade A stars available right now. So Dojo becomes available in a trade aug 13 right? So NO has a choice of two young studs in Roddy and Dojo, up to what 9 million in cash, expirings heaven, with actual talent to make them pretty good next season. It's win, win, win in a trade with us. It's tough to keep hopes down about something that you'd just kill to do and with the assets to do it. And the long part of the offseason just began, so it's at least entertaining. Dirk needs that star and Paul is certainly it...

[chumdawg]

Screw Chris Paul!

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

People get their hopes up because if not Paul then who? There don't seem to be any other grade A stars available right now. So Dojo becomes available in a trade aug 13 right? So NO has a choice of two young studs in Roddy and Dojo, up to what 9 million in cash, expirings heaven, with actual talent to make them pretty good next season. It's win, win, win in a trade with us. It's tough to keep hopes down about something that you'd just kill to do and with the assets to do it. And the long part of the offseason just began, so it's at least entertaining. Dirk needs that star and Paul is certainly it...

Dogo+ Roddy+ Butler+ first round picks im not sure if this would work for Paul + Okofar with the trade exceptions

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by mavs777

Dogo+ Roddy+ Butler+ first round picks im not sure if this would work for Paul + Okofar with the trade exceptions

Trade exceptions can't be combined with players.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by sike

I'm willing to admit that could and even should happen...I would be happy if JT got his game rejuvenated by CP3. That is all projecting, I was simply commenting on what we've seen.

Of course, this all is very pipedreamish...

Well yeah, I'm certainly not arguing that Jet is capable of being a quality third scorer behind someone like, say, Butler. I've been pushing the idea of moving Jet all off season.

And yes, very big pipe dream.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by mavs777

Dogo+ Roddy+ Butler+ first round picks im not sure if this would work for Paul + Okofar with the trade exceptions

Not sure it would work how? Numbers wise or them just saying no?

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Trade exceptions can't be combined with players.

and if I am correct neither can Chandler, but we can make the Okofar for Chandler trade as 1 also and seperatley get Paul with Dogo Roddy and Butler

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Not sure it would work how? Numbers wise or them just saying no?

Cap wise

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by mavs777

and if I am correct neither can Chandler, but we can make the Okofar for Chandler trade as 1 also and seperatley get Paul with Dogo Roddy and Butler

Correct, on Chandler, at least until mid-September. As I've outlined before, the basis of a Mavs offer would (I assume) be:

1. Chandler for Okafor

2. Caron Butler and JJB for Paul

3. Roddy and Stevenson for Posey.

Dojo can be thrown in somewhere if they wait, picks can be added, and I *think* you can send 9 mil because it's three separate trades. I've never actually seen that confirmed anywhere though.

And I think you could send them Ajinca for a TE they have if they so desired.

[sike]

Why wouldn't Paul want to play with big, dunking machine, Dwight Howard...of course that makes more sense than coming to Dallas. Moves Paul to the East (and out of division) which makes sense for the Hornets...

*sigh*

Sometimes I hate being a Mavs fan.

[41mvp]

Chandler for Okafor?why?

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by sike

Why wouldn't Paul want to play with big, dunking machine, Dwight Howard...of course that makes more sense than coming to Dallas. Moves Paul to the East (and out of division) which makes sense for the Hornets...

*sigh*

Sometimes I hate being a Mavs fan.

I don't really think where Paul wants to go is going to make much of a difference.

And I don't really think Orlando is that great a fit from a trade standpoint. Hard to know for sure, obviously. They might just love Gortat. But Orlando doesn't have much young talent and doesn't have enough expiring contracts to take on Okafor.

[Windmill360]

Originally Posted by 41mvp

Chandler for Okafor?why?

Hornets are not going to do a deal (with any team) unless they can get Okafor off their books.

[sike]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I don't really think where Paul wants to go is going to make much of a difference.

And I don't really think Orlando is that great a fit from a trade standpoint. Hard to know for sure, obviously. They might just love Gortat. But Orlando doesn't have much young talent and doesn't have enough expiring contracts to take on Okafor.

What the Magic could offer was my only glimmer of hope...couldn't they offer Gortat, Lewis, Nelson? That would be better talent that we could offer...but I know the Mavs can offer more financial relief.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I don't really think where Paul wants to go is going to make much of a difference.

And I don't really think Orlando is that great a fit from a trade standpoint. Hard to know for sure, obviously. They might just love Gortat. But Orlando doesn't have much young talent and doesn't have enough expiring contracts to take on Okafor.

Depends on whether or not N.O. would agree to take back Nelson. w/VC thats 25 million right there. but you're right Orlando doesnt have the young talent excepting Gortat. not sure that Ryan Anderson qualifies. i would be more worried about NJ offering Favors or Lopez. i could see that being the best offer of young talent NO receives. but then NJ would have a hard time sending back enough salary to take on Okafor.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by sike

What the Magic could offer was my only glimmer of hope...couldn't they offer Gortat, Lewis, Nelson? That would be better talent that we could offer...but I know the Mavs can offer more financial relief.

no team in the league would take on Lewis. it would be VC's expiring.

[dalger]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Ok but the second fiddle in the equation is important. When Josh and Jet were here, they kind of took turns being quasi-second scorers, but neither of them had enough talent to do it properly, nor did they draw enough attention to make life easier for the third scorer in the equation.

My point is that if you get a true second superstar, that's going to make life infinitely easier for guys like Jet, who can truly just be role players instead of being counted on to pull the load every single night.

If Chris freaking Paul is playing with Dirk, Jet is more than fine as a third scoring option, considering what other pieces are also around. (IMO)

That's an important aspect. After all these years of having either Josh, Jet or Butler as second options on offense, Chris Paul should be able to change that and give us a true second superstar. Since Josh is gone and Butler would be gone after a trade, Jet would then be our third option and offense. On paper, that should make his life much easier and help him to remain productive, hopefully even in the playoffs. Granted, we don't really know whether Jet's woes last season were the beginning of his unavoidable and continuing decline or just a bad stretch that he can come back from. We would have to hope that he could live up to our expectations of a third fiddle on a championship team, which is hard to foresee. If he turned into our next Jerry Stackhouse sonner rather than later, we would obviously be in trouble.

One way or another we should be more than willing to offer taking Okafor AND Posey alongside Paul. Not only to have another solid rotation player in Posey as a replacement for giving up Butler, Roddy and Stevenson, but also to make it more difficult for other teams to compete with our offer. The more money involved in this deal, the better for us.

A rotation of Haywood, Dirk, Marion, Kidd, Paul, Okafor, Jet, Posey and Jones looks pretty exciting. Another good thing about this deal would be the fact that Okafor would actually fill a need due to being able to also be Dirk's backup guy, who we don't have right now, and Posey would at least reduce the negative side effects of losing Butler and Stevenson due to playing the same position.

[mavs777]

Im going to say it and im sure im going to get some flake for this: Posey reminds me of Deavean George

[rabbitproof]

I think Orlando is a tough partner mostly because of Okafor. It'd have to become a threeway because if you think Gortat is a high-priced backup......

[LonghornDub]

I'm thinking that where Paul "wants to go," may account for, I don't know, maybe 1% of the Hornets ultimate determination about whether/where to trade him.

[rabbitproof]

If Paul gets traded, he will have some input in where he goes cause if he had no input, the Hornets wouldn't ever trade him. I'd bet on NYK/ORL/LAL/DAL vs the field right now.

It's basically have a pissy star on a losing team with a new coach and watch him walk for nothing in two years vs. get the best you can now and rebuild cleanly with your young players, new GM and new coach.

[dalger]

After looking at some possible trade scenarios between the Hornets and Mavs/Magic/Blazers/NYK, I must admit that Portland could easily offer the best combination of talent and expiring contracts. Orlando could offer Nelson, Carter, Gortat and Anderson which might not necessarily be considered worse than Chandler, Butler, Beaubois and Stevenson.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

If Paul gets traded, he will have some input in where he goes cause if he had no input, the Hornets wouldn't ever trade him. I'd bet on NYK/ORL/LAL/DAL vs the field right now.

This isn't true. The reason he has "input" as far as getting traded at all isn't because they actually want to accommodate his wishes, it's because him saying that reflects that he doesn't want to be there, and they know that his performance and the team will suffer if he's a malcontent in the locker room.

But that same logic doesn't apply to where he gets traded. Once they decide to ship him out, his happiness is not their concern. His input has absolutely no use to them--they'll trade him where they get the best deal.

He may well end up on one of those 4 teams, but it won't be because the Hornets cared about his input. It'll be because him mentioning those teams causes those teams to be more aggressive in pursuing him, which will lead to better offers for the Hornets to consider.

[rabbitproof]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

This isn't true. The reason he has "input" as far as getting traded at all isn't because they actually want to accommodate his wishes, it's because him saying that reflects that he doesn't want to be there, and they know that his performance and the team will suffer if he's a malcontent in the locker room.

But that same logic doesn't apply to where he gets traded. Once they decide to ship him out, his happiness is not their concern. His input has absolutely no use to them--they'll trade him where they get the best deal.

He may well end up on one of those 4 teams, but it won't be because the Hornets cared about his input. It'll be because him mentioning those teams causes those teams to be more aggressive in pursuing him, which will lead to better offers for the Hornets to consider.

You are absolutely wrong about them not being concerned about his happiness if they decide to ship him out.

Who is to say he won't be even more than a malcontent if he is traded to a team not on his list? For all we know, he only wants to go to those teams and he wants to remain in New Orleans otherwise. Granted, a team might swallow a pissed the eff off Paul but how do you think he reacts if they ship his butt to Minnesota (for say Rubio/Love/picks/cap filler)?

They absolutely care about the condition of the goods they're sending out because it affects the value of the returns they will get.

[Windmill360]

Yea i think Pauls wish list plays a factor into this. Teams wont want to deal for him if they think he's just going to bolt in two years.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

You are absolutely wrong about them not being concerned about his happiness if they decide to ship him out.

Who is to say he won't be even more than a malcontent if he is traded to a team not on his list? For all we know, he only wants to go to those teams and he wants to remain in New Orleans otherwise. Granted, a team might swallow a pissed the eff off Paul but how do you think he reacts if they ship his butt to Minnesota (for say Rubio/Love/picks/cap filler)?

They absolutely care about the condition of the goods they're sending out because it affects the value of the returns they will get.

It doesn't matter "how it reflects." If they decide they want Rubio+Love+picks+cap filler, why in the world would they care how it reflects if they ship him to Minnesota? And if they don't want package, they're not going to trade him there.

The only thing that's going to affect where they send him is the value they get back (and maybe not wanting to send him to the same division/conference). I guess you're arguing that the value they get back is a function of his perceived happiness with that team. I think that's absolutely ridiculous given his caliber as a player--teams will offer boatloads for him and not give a crap about whether he'll be happy there.

But even if you're right, it doesn't change what the Hornets are directly concerned with, which absolutely isn't his happiness. All the Hornets are going to be looking at, still, is the value of the offer. They're not going to be framing these offers as they consider them in terms of Paul's happiness. If they get a series of bad offers, they're not going to be thinking, "Gee, let's make Chris happy so that we'll get better offers!" They're going to be thinking, "Let's keep shopping around and see if we can get a better offer."

[SMC0007]

Thats just the way basketball go

[mavs777]

I think the point of Paul's wish list, is teams not in these 4 will be less willing to give offers cause they do not want 1 Paul to bolt, and a disgruntled star ruining the team when he doesn't want to be there

[rabbitproof]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

It doesn't matter "how it reflects." If they decide they want Rubio+Love+picks+cap filler, why in the world would they care how it reflects if they ship him to Minnesota? And if they don't want package, they're not going to trade him there.

The only thing that's going to affect where they send him is the value they get back (and maybe not wanting to send him to the same division/conference). I guess you're arguing that the value they get back is a function of his perceived happiness with that team. I think that's absolutely ridiculous given his caliber as a player--teams will offer boatloads for him and not give a crap about whether he'll be happy there.

But even if you're right, it doesn't change what the Hornets are directly concerned with, which absolutely isn't his happiness. All the Hornets are going to be looking at, still, is the value of the offer. They're not going to be framing these offers as they consider them in terms of Paul's happiness. If they get a series of bad offers, they're not going to be thinking, "Gee, let's make Chris happy so that we'll get better offers!" They're going to be thinking, "Let's keep shopping around and see if we can get a better offer."

The teams that he wants will give the best offers. A Minny offer of Rubio/Love/etc is pretty damn good but you think Paul's gonna just play with a 10-win Minny team after he's asked out of a 30-win New Orleans team? Who is gonna gut their team for a guy who will demand a re-trade, and be even more pissed, or will simply walk in two years....

The Hornets have some leverage but more than operating from a position of strength, they are more like hostages of Paul's happiness (and his list).

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Awesome. We have plenty of cap flexibility. Get it done, bosses!

Butler/JJB/DeShawn/Roddy/2 firsts for CP3.
Chandler for Emeka.

Then the TE we earned for Sessions.

Use those trade assets! Still have MLE and a few other TEs to fill out the roster with..

CP3/Sessions
Kidd/JET/Dojo
Marion/Posey
Dirk/FA
Wood/Emeka


EDIT: I still think there's a snowball's chance in hell the Hornets trade Paul.

so the mavs conversation had migrated here. I think the question NO has to ask themselves is whether they will get more for him NOW than later? After the big blow-up of free agents, if they wait until CP is actually a free-agent then they may get nothing...or they will get SNTrade stuff which has not seemed to be as lucrative as what is being offered now.

If they wait until he is a free-agent then I wouls expect the knicks to have colluded with melo/cp3 to bring them all there to play with stoudamire. Of course any team that takes on CP3 has to be REAL worried about that. Orlando could probably keep him, but I'm not sure. Following in that miami model is bound to be pretty enticing to amare/melo/cp.

Also the savings will begin now and not two years later. To have continued to spend a lot and get nothing for it for two years might make them think hard since they are strapped for cash.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by jthig32

If Chris Paul is traded before the coming season for a package of cap relief, picks and young talent, the Mavs are going to have some serious, serious egg on their faces.

I don't think it's very likely, but this has me feeling a little uneasy.

why is that? You cannot blame the mavs for waiting until he does/doesn't make up his mind? Are you talking about the dust chip or something?