Why does Tim Thomas have such a bad reputation? (Tim Thomas appreciation thread) - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

antoinewalker · 12-21-2009, 12:48 AM

seriously, why does no one like this guy? why was everyone so upset when the mavericks signed him?

he's a power forward with a 3 point shot. versatility is so valuable in this game.

he only makes 825k this year and he does well in the limited minutes he's given.

he had a big game tonight and let's not forget the 3 he hit against the rockets to send that game into OT.

During his time with the Bucks, then-teammate Ray Allen was quoted as saying, "If he wanted to, Tim Thomas could be the best player in the league."

sefant77 · 12-21-2009, 12:58 AM

character

/close

Edit: Until this summer.

mac222b · 12-21-2009, 01:03 AM

i think a number of people around here liked this signing. and TT never could've or would've been the best player in the league. that's just hyperbole on Allen's part. that's like saying Derrick Coleman could've been the best player in the league. they could've both been perennial all-stars, maybe. but yeah TT is a good shooter off the bench and is still athletic enough to grab a few boards and is a tough matchup- he shoots over smaller guys and is too quick for bigs

Dirkadirkastan · 12-21-2009, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antoinewalker

During his time with the Bucks, then-teammate Ray Allen was quoted as saying, "If he wanted to, Tim Thomas could be the best player in the league."

I think this is part of it. Clearly, he is nowhere near the best player in the league. Since his output doesn't come close to his potential, he has arguably wasted his career.

The other part was the way he taunted Dirk in one game during the '06 WCF, though Dirk burned him badly by the end of the game. So he was kind of a sworn enemy in the eyes of Maverick fans before he signed.

Personally, I don't really care about any of this. The Mavs got him cheap, so all I care that he does is match or exceed the expectations of a cheap player. He has done that to this point, so I'm all right with him.

CwDogg · 12-21-2009, 01:10 AM

Because they gave him that big contract in milwaukee and he didn't do nothing afterwards. It ended

up hurting thme when it came to getting other players with Milwaukee being a small market and all.

xrobx · 12-21-2009, 01:44 AM

i guess the bucks loss is our gain.....

hey, haven't i heard that story before?

Thomas86 · 12-21-2009, 01:44 AM

I think it has alot to do with people thinking he's lazy....people are quick to forget the work he put on the Lakers in the playoffs in 2006 when the Lakers couldn't stop him at all, I remember somebody saying "if Tim Thomas wanted to be one of the best players in the NBA he could"....I think most of the hate he gets his from people that think he's lazy.

xrobx · 12-21-2009, 01:44 AM

i guess the bucks loss is our gain.....

hey, haven't i heard that story before?

Mavericks Rockets Fan · 12-21-2009, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antoinewalker

seriously, why does no one like this guy? why was everyone so upset when the mavericks signed him?

Because he hit a game winning 3 ptr against us in 2002...

[Man, do I miss those Dirk, Finley, and Nash years...Great times...]

jthig32 · 12-21-2009, 07:43 AM

I explained myself in the recap thread. Players that waste away their all-decade talent by being lazy, not listening in huddles, and spending most of the game looking for talent in the stands annoy me.

I will say that he'd probably have a much worse effect on a younger team.

jthig32 · 12-21-2009, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antoinewalker

During his time with the Bucks, then-teammate Ray Allen was quoted as saying, "If he wanted to, Tim Thomas could be the best player in the league."

You do realize that this was not a compliment, right? You answered your own question with this quote, at least in my case.

FreshJive · 12-21-2009, 08:00 AM

Why does Antoine Walker have such a bad reputation? He's a power forward with a three point shot.

antoinewalker · 12-21-2009, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

You do realize that this was not a compliment, right? You answered your own question with this quote, at least in my case.

i'll agree he didn't live up to his potential but he's not bad...

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshJive

Why does Antoine Walker have such a bad reputation? He's a power forward with a three point shot.

i'm glad you brought that up. i also don't understand why antoine walker has a bad reputation. he was even more versatile than tim thomas. he was a power forward with a 3 point shot, low post moves, and he had handles too. he had a unique dribbling ability for someone of his size. he was also a decent passer. he put up 23/9/6 in 2001 to go along with 2 steals per game as well.

i'm not asking anyone to be a fan of tim thomas or antoine walker but why do people particularly hate them as opposed to being indifferent about them?

Murphy3 · 12-21-2009, 10:11 AM

Walker is a volume shooter. Most people don't like guys that need 20 shots to get 20 points. And alot of people don't like Walker because he came in here and jacked up more shots than anyone else on the team (including Dirk) for the first half of the season that he was here even though Dirk was a far superior option.

Lestat_1795 · 12-21-2009, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antoinewalker

i also don't understand why antoine walker has a bad reputation. he was even more versatile than tim thomas. he was a power forward with a 3 point shot,

Shooting a whole bunch of ill-advised 3s and having a 3 point shot isn't the same thing

32,5% says it all.

greensborohill · 12-21-2009, 10:14 AM

He has gotten the least out of the most

that's why

That being said, he's pretty damn good

Murphy3 · 12-21-2009, 10:38 AM

I think your rotation is missing JJB... just thought I'd point out the obvious.

EricaLubarsky · 12-21-2009, 10:42 AM

Thomas is a talent. He's never been a bad player nor a cancer but he's occasionally coasted or become frustrated and not put in his all, especially on bad teams. Last year he played hard for the Bulls and was their best PF and best +/- guy (although admittedly on an average team.

I think if he was a true star he'd get away with a lot more but when he tries to get into people's heads it often comes off annoying rather than "part of the package". You can certainly see the competitive spirit in him when he talks crap, makes gestures at players, etc but none of it is as bad as the old Deke, et al.

I like the guy a lot. He does have his limitations and he doesnt have the best lateral speed, and will often foul rather than being beat, but so far he's been nothing but a positive for this team. He's a wily vet, he's got range, he can spread the floor and hit clutch jumpers and he's playing hard. He may be a little hotheaded and competitive for his own good but within a good system he seems to thrive (Phoenix, etc). Even in pickup games he's reported to be a @#$%-talking, shot-blocking, hard-fouling competitive beast. You gotta love a guy that loves the game enough to try to play it in his free time as well as for his job and be competitive even at the YMCA.

AO41 · 12-21-2009, 11:13 AM

I like TT

SMC0007 · 12-21-2009, 11:42 AM

Unrealistic expectations.

He doesn't have all-decade talent. Never has. He's just a good player, nothing great.

jthig32 · 12-21-2009, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Unrealistic expectations.

He doesn't have all-decade talent. Never has. He's just a good player, nothing great.

Couldn't possibly be more wrong.

He's a career 37% three point shooter than can also score in the post and (when he wants to) play effective defense in the post. He should have been an absolute match up nightmare this past decade.

He's never been great simply because he never wanted to be. Ask anyone who's ever watched him on a consistent basis and they'll tell you the same thing.

SMC0007 · 12-21-2009, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Couldn't possibly be more wrong.

He's a career 37% three point shooter than can also score in the post and (when he wants to) play effective defense in the post. He should have been an absolute match up nightmare this past decade.

He's never been great simply because he never wanted to be. Ask anyone who's ever watched him on a consistent basis and they'll tell you the same thing.

There is an awful lot of assumption in your post. Have you ever heard or read him saying that he didn't want to be great? I have read what Ray Allen said about him being the best player in the league etc.. but I don't buy that at all.

Have you really watched him on a consistent basis for the last decade? I don't see how many people could since he has been on enough teams to make your head spin attempting to follow him closely.

anyway, I don't think he has ever had the complete package as a player. I think he has always had more potential to be a better scorer and avg more ppg. but defensively he seemed like a tweener and off the ball he was Gerald Greenish.

He may be a case of just doesn't get it, than doesn't care.

Kidd Karma · 12-21-2009, 02:08 PM

He's someone you hate when he's on the other side. What didn't he blow Dirk a kiss. That's what got the ire of Mavs fans. Hey TT will not be a consistent performer night in and night out, but we will need him against Portland if Dirk's a no go. Then after Dirk's return, TT will warm the #12 seat.

jthig32 · 12-21-2009, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

There is an awful lot of assumption in your post. Have you ever heard or read him saying that he didn't want to be great? I have read what Ray Allen said about him being the best player in the league etc.. but I don't buy that at all.

Have you really watched him on a consistent basis for the last decade? I don't see how many people could since he has been on enough teams to make your head spin attempting to follow him closely.

anyway, I don't think he has ever had the complete package as a player. I think he has always had more potential to be a better scorer and avg more ppg. but defensively he seemed like a tweener and off the ball he was Gerald Greenish.

He may be a case of just doesn't get it, than doesn't care.

I've read enough accounts from people that have watched him on a consistent basis. Bill Simmons likes to talk about the game he watched him play where he was convinced that TT had bet someone that he could play the entire game without going below either three point line.

Seriously though, how do you look at this shooting percentages and what he's done in certain stints for certain teams and come to the conclusion that he "doesn't get it"? He doesn't get it for the Clippers, but he does for the Suns and Mavs (sometimes)? How convenient.

DirktyBlue · 12-21-2009, 02:52 PM

TT as a starter...not happening this late in his career.
TT from the bench...very intriguing. If his game is on, along with Jet, Gooden, Josh(?) and Beaubois (maybe?) has the potential to create some absolute mayhem in the playoffs.

SMC0007 · 12-21-2009, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I've read enough accounts from people that have watched him on a consistent basis. Bill Simmons likes to talk about the game he watched him play where he was convinced that TT had bet someone that he could play the entire game without going below either three point line.

Seriously though, how do you look at this shooting percentages and what he's done in certain stints for certain teams and come to the conclusion that he "doesn't get it"? He doesn't get it for the Clippers, but he does for the Suns and Mavs (sometimes)? How convenient.

Tim Thomas wasn't bad for the Clippers, his numbers were about par for him.

It's not a simple argument for either side. I understand your point but I hate that people jump out and claim to know certian things like "they don't care" about players when they really just don't know, but have read some 2nd hand opinions here and there.

He has a great shooting touch so it souldn't be surprising that he would have decent shooting %'s. Put him on a team that has a clue and he can get some good looks and he and his % look a lot better. Take that same player and drop him on the Clippers and you get reverse effects most times, the %'s drop and he looks like a bench player. The open shots aren't there and the flow of the games aren't the same. The success of many players in the league have a lot to do with the style of basketball their teams play and how long they have been in a system.

Gerald Green is another example of a guy that has talent and ability but doesn't seem to get it.

jthig32 · 12-21-2009, 04:25 PM

Gerald Green is a weird comparison You're comparing someone that has made over $100 million dollars in the NBA to someone who's supposedly about to start playing in Russia.

Tim Thomas' only meaningful contributions to a team have come in the playoffs immediately preceding a free agent year. It's happened twice and he's cashed in for contracts both times.

That, alone is not enough. But combined with all the anecdotal evidence I've read from people whose opinion I respect, and the multiple playoff series I have seen him play well in (going all the way back to Milwaukee), I have absolutely no qualms saying that Tim Thomas is a career role player simply because he never cared to be anything else.

That's my opinion.

CadBane · 12-21-2009, 04:58 PM

I'm with SMC on this one. Could TT have been better? Sure. Could he have been a top 10 player? No way in hell. I hate that "if he tried he's be a MVP" hypothetical BS. A lot of people say if Rasheed "tried", he'd have been better than KG, Dirk and TD. Laughable. It's not like TT and Sheed think "Hmm, I could win an MVP..but instead I'll only play at 50%". Sure they might have issues like being lazy, or not listening. But it's not as though if they "tried" harder they'd suddenly be an MVP caliber player.

jthig32 · 12-21-2009, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

I'm with SMC on this one. Could TT have been better? Sure. Could he have been a top 10 player? No way in hell. I hate that "if he tried he's be a MVP" hypothetical BS. A lot of people say if Rasheed "tried", he'd have been better than KG, Dirk and TD. Laughable. It's not like TT and Sheed think "Hmm, I could win an MVP..but instead I'll only play at 50%". Sure they might have issues like being lazy, or not listening. But it's not as though if they "tried" harder they'd suddenly be an MVP caliber player.

It's not just about playing at 50%. It's about how much work you put in during the off season and during practice. It's how much you care about making yourself better. Obviously there are talent levels, and not all players are capable of being great. But there is absolutely no question that work ethic and the drive to be great is an important aspect to just about any great player.

And you make it sound like it's just a button they can press. Like they could make a one time decision and then they could automatically become great. It doesn't work like that. It's a daily decision to push yourself as far as you can go. The drive to be great is what separates people in all sorts of areas of life, not just athletics.

There is absolutely no question in my mind that if you shifted Dirk's work ethic into Tim Thomas, and vice versa, they would have had astronomically different careers.

SMC0007 · 12-21-2009, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Gerald Green is a weird comparison You're comparing someone that has made over $100 million dollars in the NBA to someone who's supposedly about to start playing in Russia.

Tim Thomas' only meaningful contributions to a team have come in the playoffs immediately preceding a free agent year. It's happened twice and he's cashed in for contracts both times.

That, alone is not enough. But combined with all the anecdotal evidence I've read from people whose opinion I respect, and the multiple playoff series I have seen him play well in (going all the way back to Milwaukee), I have absolutely no qualms saying that Tim Thomas is a career role player simply because he never cared to be anything else.

That's my opinion.

No sir, that is a piece of a comparison that I was obviously not referring to. We both know I'm talking about how their ability and talent for whatever reason hasn't clicked and turned into what people hoped or thought. We differ in opinion as to why.

LonghornDub · 12-21-2009, 06:19 PM

I had a Grand Slam at Denny's last night in honor of TT.

AO41 · 12-21-2009, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

It's not just about playing at 50%. It's about how much work you put in during the off season and during practice. It's how much you care about making yourself better. Obviously there are talent levels, and not all players are capable of being great. But there is absolutely no question that work ethic and the drive to be great is an important aspect to just about any great player.

And you make it sound like it's just a button they can press. Like they could make a one time decision and then they could automatically become great. It doesn't work like that. It's a daily decision to push yourself as far as you can go. The drive to be great is what separates people in all sorts of areas of life, not just athletics.

There is absolutely no question in my mind that if you shifted Dirk's work ethic into Tim Thomas, and vice versa, they would have had astronomically different careers.

I think TT is one of those players that loves to play, but understands that its justa game. I agree with you that he could have been a much better player

The GG comparison is not even close....but I think a R Wallace one is. Wallace never wanted to be the man, but he was so versatile on both end that if he had put the effort into it he could have been an even better player than he was. Wallace has had a good career and got a title....but on an individual level he could have been one of the best PF to ever play.

mavsfan1000 · 12-21-2009, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AO41

I think TT is one of those players that loves to play, but understands that its justa game. I agree with you that he could have been a much better player

The GG comparison is not even close....but I think a R Wallace one is. Wallace never wanted to be the man, but he was so versatile on both end that if he had put the effort into it he could have been an even better player than he was. Wallace has had a good career and got a title....but on an individual level he could have been one of the best PF to ever play.

Yeah he could've been very similar to Duncan. He's got the same kind of body. He needed to work more on his low post moves. He is always too far out from the basket. He is not as good of a shooter as Dirk and refuses to use his power in the post consistently.

DubOverdose · 12-22-2009, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antoinewalker

i'm glad you brought that up. i also don't understand why antoine walker has a bad reputation. he was even more versatile than tim thomas. he was a power forward with a 3 point shot, low post moves, and he had handles too. he had a unique dribbling ability for someone of his size. he was also a decent passer. he put up 23/9/6 in 2001 to go along with 2 steals per game as well.

i'm not asking anyone to be a fan of tim thomas or antoine walker but why do people particularly hate them as opposed to being indifferent about them?

Walker sucks...he takes WAY too many shots, makes many terrible decisions (i.e., taking low % shots), laughable on D, etc. If he were to play within his skill set offensively and give a solid effort on D, I don't think people would hate him.

Kidd Karma · 12-22-2009, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DubOverdose

Walker sucks...he takes WAY too many shots, makes many terrible decisions (i.e., taking low % shots), laughable on D, etc. If he were to play within his skill set offensively and give a solid effort on D, I don't think people would hate him.

Walker at one time was an all around player...i guess at kentucky. So he brought a lot of that to the NBA and it did not fly. He was more concerned about his ESPN highlights than winning. Never really worked on his skills, could have been a great low post player, with his handles and ability to pass, just never worked on it. Does not have that edge that separates the great ones. I see Thomas similarly, the guy could score from any where, he just never worked on his back to the basket game, he had the size to score in the paint at will, but never really cared for that part of the game, instead relying on his shooting.

vinylstar · 12-22-2009, 02:03 PM

There isn't a single defensive possesion where it looks like he gives a sh*t or knows his roll. He may just not "get it" on defense. Carmelo is like that too. Always looks lost on defense. Never looks lost on offense.

An aside no one cares about - my game is just the opposite.

antoinewalker · 12-22-2009, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lestat_1795

Shooting a whole bunch of ill-advised 3s and having a 3 point shot isn't the same thing

32,5% says it all.

you'd be surprised how many players that are pretty good that only shoot 33% from 3 point range...