GDT game 9: Mavs (1-7) at Clippers (4-2) 7:30 ESPN/FSSW - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

EricaLubarsky · 11-02-2017, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

Call me crazy but if I think I'm a max player, the best way to make a case for myself is to play my best against a front court with 2 other max players. Hell just play good in general against anyone and ppl will talk about you. 8 games in and he's so butthurt by low minutes that he's killing his value playing like poo? I just don't buy it, I'm sure he is frustrated but if anything he should be out there overamped and trying to prove something, he looks disinterested and when he is engaged he looks absolutely unremarkable. So either he is the take my ball and go type of person or he's just not good. Neither of which I want to pay.

Also I'm warming up to the idea of replacing RC but I'd rather do it with a new young coach rather than going to last generation coaches. The problem with that is for every Brad Stevens there are prolly 20+ Fred Hoiberg's.

I don't think you are crazy at all. Sure Rick is yanking him around, but even when given consistent starts, he fails to produce. You earn minutes by
1) Playing hard
2) Following the defenses/offenses Rick drew up
3) Not making boneheaded plays
4) Being consistently a positive force

Noel hasn't done any of those things consistently. In fact, he continues to wilt when facing good competition. He was dominated by Embiid and almost every other big he's gone against of any quality. Great players rise to the challenge, not wilt like a daisy when facing a skilled competitor.

I'm mixed on Rick. He gets too much flack for some things, but way too much for others. The bigger issue I see is that while he may not have caught up to the 2015 NBA, there aren't many coaches out there that are better and look at all the lottery teams with a complete vacuum of leadership. Consistent leadership is as important as quality of coaching.

My personal opinion: Keep Rick, look for more development coaching (Shedd is absolutely awful), and lean on Rick to play more youth. Rick is a great stabilizing force and a good basketball mind.

Underdog · 11-02-2017, 12:10 PM

Isaac Harris over at the Locked On Mavs Podcast had the idea of trading Noel to Boston for their $8.4m player exception from the Hayward injury, plus one of their 2019 first-rounders... I'm sure Noel would jump all over it (since his Bird Rights are pretty much toast now), and it might actually be the best deal we can get for him at this point.

EricaLubarsky · 11-02-2017, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Isaac harris over at the Locked On Mavs Podcast had the idea of trading Noel to Boston for their $8.4m player exception from the Hayward injury, plus one of their 2019 first-rounders... I'm sure Noel would jump all over it (since his Bird Rights are pretty much toast now), and it might actually be the best deal we can get for him at this point.

I like it.

Lean into that tank.

We get something for someone who is bolting anyway

Boston is good, but they need bigs. They may really need that. They don't need someone to consistently dominate, but his occasional dominance will make them better.

Noel gets more consistent minutes on a good team. He'll like that until he inevitably alienates the coaching staff and players and pouts.

Underdog · 11-02-2017, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Noel gets more consistent minutes on a good team.

That's what he needs most right now -- and some playoff exposure certainly isn't going to hurt his pursuit of a max contract... Good fit for Boston too.

rimrocker · 11-02-2017, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Isaac Harris over at the Locked On Mavs Podcast had the idea of trading Noel to Boston for their $8.4m player exception from the Hayward injury, plus one of their 2019 first-rounders... I'm sure Noel would jump all over it (since his Bird Rights are pretty much toast now), and it might actually be the best deal we can get for him at this point.

Any 1st rounder for Noel would be a win for the Mavs imo.....they should jump all over that if the opportunity ever presents itself.

SMC0007 · 11-02-2017, 02:04 PM

Rick is at practices and probably stays up late most nights and up early working on how to win and get the most of this team everyday. It's easy to make emotional opinions based on very limited information on these players and the system Rick runs. It's impossible to clear out all the obstacles in the way to even have insight enough to judge how this gets fixed, but it's not going to be anytime soon. How could anyone point a finger at Rick and say, you aren't playing this player and he could carry this bunch of misfits to contention? We don't have that player.

Dirk can't even move out there. No one is picking up that load, not even close. Now he's just a shell of a threat and if he isn't hitting jumpers at a high %, then it's probably worse than having Kleber, for example, out there. He can not defend worth a shit. He's in the top 5 most immobile players in the league. At least with Kleber, you get the hustle, the rebounding, the defense, along with the threat of some actual movement on offense and he can hit the 3 some. I'm not saying Kleber is the solution. I'm just saying that we don't have the players that will make Rick look like the coach he has been over the years. This team and most of the individuals are BAD and the ones that are decent, are misfits and the parts work against the whole.

RC has an uphill battle but there is no way he is going to be onboard a tank..nor does Cuban, Dirk and the other veterans. It doesn't take a "brain Seargent", as one person on this forum posted years ago, to see that. We aren't purpposely tanking. We are bad enough to keep trying hard and it just look like we are.

mac222b · 11-02-2017, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Isaac Harris over at the Locked On Mavs Podcast had the idea of trading Noel to Boston for their $8.4m player exception from the Hayward injury, plus one of their 2019 first-rounders... I'm sure Noel would jump all over it (since his Bird Rights are pretty much toast now), and it might actually be the best deal we can get for him at this point.

Would love this if its possible but I don't see Ainge handing over a 1st for a rental. Unless heavily protected. Seems like a good fit though--assuming they actually like Noel's game

mac222b · 11-02-2017, 02:09 PM

Rick will be here as long as he wants. He has young kids in school im sure they dont want to uproot. I could see him leaving after this season with Dirk and take a year off or go back to broadcasting until a plum job opens up. Some may depend on where we draft. Say we have a shot at Doncic and RC sees him as the second coming of Bird. That could influence him greatly

GlowerPower · 11-02-2017, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Rick is at practices and probably stays up late most nights and up early working on how to win and get the most of this team everyday. It's easy to make emotional opinions based on very limited information on these players and the system Rick runs. It's impossible to clear out all the obstacles in the way to even have insight enough to judge how this gets fixed, but it's not going to be anytime soon. How could anyone point a finger at Rick and say, you aren't playing this player and he could carry this bunch of misfits to contention? We don't have that player.

Dirk can't even move out there. No one is picking up that load, not even close. Now he's just a shell of a threat and if he isn't hitting jumpers at a high %, then it's probably worse than having Kleber, for example, out there. He can not defend worth a shit. He's in the top 5 most immobile players in the league. At least with Kleber, you get the hustle, the rebounding, the defense, along with the threat of some actual movement on offense and he can hit the 3 some. I'm not saying Kleber is the solution. I'm just saying that we don't have the players that will make Rick look like the coach he has been over the years. This team and most of the individuals are BAD and the ones that aren't are misfits and the parts work against the whole.

RC has an uphill battle but there is no way he is going to be onboard a tank..nor does Cuban, Dirk and the other veterans. It doesn't take a "brain Seargent", as one person on this forum posted years ago, to see that. We aren't purpposely tanking. We are bad enough to keep trying hard and it just look like we are.

I've been lurking since the start of the season (looking for a good message board...the posting level at Mavs Moneyball is pretty low), and finally decided to join. I have to say, I've noticed pretty much every gamethread you've been harping on Dirk, and it's truly bizarre.

Dirk started the season really rough, but since the Memphis game, he's actually been playing quite well (arguably our most consistent player since that game, which is sad!) Last night in just 21 minutes he put up 13/8/3 on 5-11 shooting and in 21 point loss, was only a -4. I mean what exactly do you want? That's a damn good game at any age, let alone 39. The other night in Utah, 18/5 on 7-11 shooting. In the Philly loss, 11/5 on 4-7 shooting while being a +24 (next highest player was +8...) in a two point loss!!! In 25 mpg this year Dirk is putting up 11/5/2 on 41/44/78 shooting, and a DRB% higher than his career average.

The fact is, even at 39, the team is still better with Dirk on the court than off. He's really the last of our problems, so it's strange to me you keep focusing on him. I like Kleber, a lot! But he shouldn't be playing at the expense of Dirk...he should be playing at the expense of our PF/C "energy" big who is shooting 34/30 from the field. Powell literally brings nothing positive to the table. He's a horrendous defender (yes, worse than Dirk), still has no jumpshot or offensive game, and just a very, very poor basketball IQ.

The problem with this team is just a plain lack of talent. Our alleged "best" player is the worst best player in the NBA (planning on making a post about this later). We don't have young talent (aside from DSJ, who I do like). Our vets are all role players at this point (Dirk, Wes, Harris), and our actual role players are waiver wire fodder.

But the problem with this team most certainly isn't the 39 year old PF who has a better 3pt% by 5 points than our 90 million dollar "star's" FG%...

EricaLubarsky · 11-02-2017, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlowerPower

I've been lurking since the start of the season (looking for a good message board...the posting level at Mavs Moneyball is pretty low), and finally decided to join. I have to say, I've noticed pretty much every gamethread you've been harping on Dirk, and it's truly bizarre.

Dirk started the season really rough, but since the Memphis game, he's actually been playing quite well (arguably our most consistent player since that game, which is sad!) Last night in just 21 minutes he put up 13/8/3 on 5-11 shooting and in 21 point loss, was only a -4. I mean what exactly do you want? That's a damn good game at any age, let alone 39. The other night in Utah, 18/5 on 7-11 shooting. In the Philly loss, 11/5 on 4-7 shooting while being a +24 (next highest player was +8...) in a two point loss!!! In 25 mpg this year Dirk is putting up 11/5/2 on 41/44/78 shooting, and a DRB% higher than his career average.

The fact is, even at 39, the team is still better with Dirk on the court than off. He's really the last of our problems, so it's strange to me you keep focusing on him. I like Kleber, a lot! But he shouldn't be playing at the expense of Dirk...he should be playing at the expense of our PF/C "energy" big who is shooting 34/30 from the field. Powell literally brings nothing positive to the table. He's a horrendous defender (yes, worse than Dirk), still has no jumpshot or offensive game, and just a very, very poor basketball IQ.

The problem with this team is just a plain lack of talent. Our alleged "best" player is the worst best player in the NBA (planning on making a post about this later). We don't have young talent (aside from DSJ, who I do like). Our vets are all role players at this point (Dirk, Wes, Harris), and our actual role players are waiver wire fodder.

But the problem with this team most certainly isn't the 39 year old PF who has a better 3pt% by 5 points than our 90 million dollar "star's" FG%...

I can see your point, but Dirk has a negative +/-, a negative net +/-, a negative OPBM, and a negative DBPM. Obviously we suck both when he's on the floor and when he's off, but we've sucked a little less without him out there.

Dirk is the best Maverick to ever play for us and a top 6-9 player ever to play the game, but right now at this point in his career, he's a negative. Even if he was shooting 70/60/90, he'd still be a negative because we need to tank and develop young guys, but he's also a net negative too so far in this season. His numbers have come up, but the team is still better without him playing.

I like to see him make a few shots, because I'm not ready for the NBA to be Dirk-less, but Dirk really hasn't been good for us. He's finally starting to score after starting the season shooting 17%, but no matter what happens, he'll always be a defensive liability. The number of times he's been flat-footed while players come into the paint for a layup has been astounding and frankly makes the team hard to watch on that end.

Melonhead · 11-02-2017, 02:58 PM

I love Rick as a coach for established vets looking to push for a playoff spot. I just dont think he's our guy going foward, were in too far of a hole.

GlowerPower · 11-02-2017, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

I can see your point, but Dirk has a negative +/-, a negative net +/-, a negative OPBM, and a negative DBPM. Obviously we suck both when he's on the floor and when he's off, but we've sucked a little less without him out there.

Dirk is the best Maverick to ever play for us and a top 6-9 player ever to play the game, but right now at this point in his career, he's a negative. Even if he was shooting 70/60/90, he'd still be a negative because we need to tank and develop young guys, but he's also a net negative too so far in this season. His numbers have come up, but the team is still better without him playing.

I like to see him make a few shots, because I'm not ready for the NBA to be Dirk-less, but Dirk really hasn't been good for us. He's finally starting to score after starting the season shooting 17%, but no matter what happens, he'll always be a defensive liability. The number of times he's been flat-footed while players come into the paint for a layup has been astounding and frankly makes the team hard to watch on that end.

Not true. Dirk has a -14.4 OnCourt...because this team is garbage with or without him. But his On/Off is only -4.4. So they're 10 points better (or less sucky), with him on the court. For comparison, Noel is worse. He's -15.5 and -5.3. Though it's probably too early in the season to divulge a lot on +/-.

If Dirk were holding back a talented young player, that's one thing. But he isn't. Our other frontcourt guys are Noel (nowhere near a Max guy, and he'll be gone in the offseason), Powell (no comment), Kleber (like him, but he's a role player who should be playing over Powell), Salah (bench guy...should get a little more burn though), and Whithey (same).

Sure, Dirk is a defensive liability...but so is Powell. Dirk also is still a positive defensive rebounder. The season is a lottery pick either way, so I find it odd to focus on 39 year-old Dirk playing decent ball.

DevinHarriswillstart · 11-02-2017, 03:13 PM

Of course Dirk will always shoot well, but what SMC is saying isn't even remotely bizarre or ridiculous. Dirk is playing the lowest minutes of his career because he is a PF that isn't much good playing center. His mobility is extremely limited which puts too much pressure on the rest of the defense...esp when coach wants to play Barea and Ferrell next to each other.

I'm happy to see his shot stay true to his greatness though. That jumper is the purest and most efficient in NBA history as far as I'm concerned.

GlowerPower · 11-02-2017, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Of course Dirk will always shoot well, but what SMC is saying isn't even remotely bizarre or ridiculous. Dirk is playing the lowest minutes of his career because he is a PF that isn't much good playing center. His mobility is extremely limited which puts too much pressure on the rest of the defense...esp when coach wants to play Barea and Ferrell next to each other.

I'm happy to see his shot stay true to his greatness though. That jumper is the purest and most efficient in NBA history as far as I'm concerned.

Again, what I'm saying is it's odd to focus on Dirk when he's playing better ball than our 90 million dollar "star" who is shooting less than 40% from the field, and looks like a 4th option on a playoff team, or the guy we almost maxed who has a worse +/- than Dirk...

DevinHarriswillstart · 11-02-2017, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlowerPower

Again, what I'm saying is it's odd to focus on Dirk when he's playing better ball than our 90 million dollar "star" who is shooting less than 40% from the field, and looks like a 4th option on a playoff team, or the guy we almost maxed who has a worse +/- than Dirk...

Well a few of us have suggested trading Barnes, so I'm not sure what one thing has to do with another. Dirk hasn't been very good and neither has Barnes. But it's more beneficial asset-wise for Barnes to play well versus Dirk who might retire this summer.

GlowerPower · 11-02-2017, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Well a few of us have suggested trading Barnes, so I'm not sure what one thing has to do with another. Dirk hasn't been very good and neither has Barnes. But it's more beneficial asset-wise for Barnes to play well versus Dirk who might retire this summer.

We're tanking and Dirk isn't blocking talent. I see no reason he wouldn't play.

GlowerPower · 11-02-2017, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Well a few of us have suggested trading Barnes, so I'm not sure what one thing has to do with another. Dirk hasn't been very good and neither has Barnes. But it's more beneficial asset-wise for Barnes to play well versus Dirk who might retire this summer.

Also, saying they both haven't been good is a cop out. One is 39. The other is in his prime making a max contract and expected to be a first banana. They should be held to different standards...

SMC0007 · 11-02-2017, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlowerPower

I've been lurking since the start of the season (looking for a good message board...the posting level at Mavs Moneyball is pretty low), and finally decided to join. I have to say, I've noticed pretty much every gamethread you've been harping on Dirk, and it's truly bizarre.

Dirk started the season really rough, but since the Memphis game, he's actually been playing quite well (arguably our most consistent player since that game, which is sad!) Last night in just 21 minutes he put up 13/8/3 on 5-11 shooting and in 21 point loss, was only a -4. I mean what exactly do you want? That's a damn good game at any age, let alone 39. The other night in Utah, 18/5 on 7-11 shooting. In the Philly loss, 11/5 on 4-7 shooting while being a +24 (next highest player was +8...) in a two point loss!!! In 25 mpg this year Dirk is putting up 11/5/2 on 41/44/78 shooting, and a DRB% higher than his career average.

The fact is, even at 39, the team is still better with Dirk on the court than off. He's really the last of our problems, so it's strange to me you keep focusing on him. I like Kleber, a lot! But he shouldn't be playing at the expense of Dirk...he should be playing at the expense of our PF/C "energy" big who is shooting 34/30 from the field. Powell literally brings nothing positive to the table. He's a horrendous defender (yes, worse than Dirk), still has no jumpshot or offensive game, and just a very, very poor basketball IQ.

The problem with this team is just a plain lack of talent. Our alleged "best" player is the worst best player in the NBA (planning on making a post about this later). We don't have young talent (aside from DSJ, who I do like). Our vets are all role players at this point (Dirk, Wes, Harris), and our actual role players are waiver wire fodder.

But the problem with this team most certainly isn't the 39 year old PF who has a better 3pt% by 5 points than our 90 million dollar "star's" FG%...

Welcome aboard.

Even in the part of my post you selected I mention that no one is picking up the load that he can no longer carry. It was in reference to the team and Rick. Other than the stats you posted, you have said many similar things that I have also stated before about the lack of talent overall. I'm not and haven't been saying that Dirk sucks and never has done anything for us why is he still playing.

When we have a 39 year old who is very limited on BOTH ends the floor, yet expected to be anything more than a role player who can potentially give you a lift on some nights by shooting high %, it's hard to point at the coach and say he is the problem. We have plenty of problems.

That said, I am an equal opportunity harper. Hell I will harp on Derrick Harper in a gameday thread. If it's deserved, so be it. Dirk is part of the team..so he should not be excluded from the conversations about what is wrong with the team.

DevinHarriswillstart · 11-02-2017, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlowerPower

Also, saying they both haven't been good is a cop out. One is 39. The other is in his prime making a max contract and expected to be a first banana. They should be held to different standards...

Your argument is that we can't fairly criticize Dirk because Barnes has been bad? Welcome to the boards as we definitely need new posters, but this is a silly tit-for-tat that isn't necessary. The whole teak sucks and you're defending Dirk because of who he is and his past. I don't blame you, but what people are saying about him negatively are mostly true. Sorry you disagree.

GlowerPower · 11-02-2017, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Welcome aboard.

Even in the part of my post you selected I mention that no one is picking up the load that he can no longer carry. It was in reference to the team and Rick. Other than the stats you posted, you have said many similar things that I have also stated before about the lack of talent overall. I'm not and haven't been saying that Dirk sucks and never has done anything for us why is he still playing.

When we have a 39 year old who is very limited on BOTH ends the floor, yet expected to be anything more than a role player who can potentially give you a lift on some nights by shooting high %, it's hard to point at the coach and say he is the problem. We have plenty of problems.

That said, I am an equal opportunity harper. Hell I will harp on Derrick Harper in a gameday thread. If it's deserved, so be it. Dirk is part of the team..so he should not be excluded from the conversations about what is wrong with the team.

For sure, Dirk shouldn't be relied upon. But that's a criticism more of the team than Dirk.

SMC0007 · 11-02-2017, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlowerPower

Not true. Dirk has a -14.4 OnCourt...because this team is garbage with or without him. But his On/Off is only -4.4. So they're 10 points better (or less sucky), with him on the court. For comparison, Noel is worse. He's -15.5 and -5.3. Though it's probably too early in the season to divulge a lot on +/-.

If Dirk were holding back a talented young player, that's one thing. But he isn't. Our other frontcourt guys are Noel (nowhere near a Max guy, and he'll be gone in the offseason), Powell (no comment), Kleber (like him, but he's a role player who should be playing over Powell), Salah (bench guy...should get a little more burn though), and Whithey (same).

Sure, Dirk is a defensive liability...but so is Powell. Dirk also is still a positive defensive rebounder. The season is a lottery pick either way, so I find it odd to focus on 39 year-old Dirk playing decent ball.

I think you have a point that essentially someone has to play themselves into his spot. But, It's a bit more complicated than just Dirk isn't holding back young talent. Dirk always gets ultimate respect from Cuban and Rick as well as the entire City...how easy do you think it is for them to approach him with coming off the bench etc? There's also ticket sales aspect, he is still a major Draw.

Don't be offended that I chose to post about Dirk, I spread it around.

SMC0007 · 11-02-2017, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Your argument is that we can't fairly criticize Dirk because Barnes has been bad? Welcome to the boards as we definitely need new posters, but this is a silly tit-for-tat that isn't necessary. The whole teak sucks and you're defending Dirk because of who he is and his past. I don't blame you, but what people are saying about him negatively are mostly true. Sorry you disagree.

Yea, It's easy to get defensive of Dirk because of the past. At least my criticisms of Dirk are in gameday threads instead of the "Official Dirk is great" thread

rimrocker · 11-02-2017, 03:58 PM

I honestly don't have a problem with Dirk playing 48 mins a game if he could because I don't see him taking minutes away from any future piece on this current team....including Noel.
What turns me off is seeing a lineup of Dirk/Harris/Barea/Matthews/Powell for extended minutes because that keeps potential future talent off the court.

The way I see it, lets enjoy watching Dirk play the rest of this season and rack up points to hopefully pass Wilt but with young guys who have a decent chance of being part of our long-term future.

GlowerPower · 11-02-2017, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Your argument is that we can't fairly criticize Dirk because Barnes has been bad? Welcome to the boards as we definitely need new posters, but this is a silly tit-for-tat that isn't necessary. The whole teak sucks and you're defending Dirk because of who he is and his past. I don't blame you, but what people are saying about him negatively are mostly true. Sorry you disagree.

I never said we can't criticize Dirk. I'm saying it's odd to focus solely on him when he's doing his job at 39 (spread the floor, hit 3s, rebound defensively), which he is since Memphis. Why are we honing in on that instead of the larger issues...like HB being an at best league average player making 90M...

GlowerPower · 11-02-2017, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Yea, It's easy to get defensive of Dirk because of the past. At least my criticisms of Dirk are in gameday threads instead of the "Official Dirk is great" thread

I don't mind Dirk getting criticism. But honestly, since Memphis, he's doing everything we can ask of him (shooting well, spreading the floor, rebounding on the defensive end). Meanwhile our 90M "star" is playing like he's not even a top 200 player.

SMC0007 · 11-02-2017, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlowerPower

I don't mind Dirk getting criticism. But honestly, since Memphis, he's doing everything we can ask of him (shooting well, spreading the floor, rebounding on the defensive end). Meanwhile our 90M "star" is playing like he's not even a top 200 player.

I won't argue that Barnes isn't playing like we may have hoped. I need more time with him this season tho.

I'm not a huge fan of stats as a whole...they don't tell the whole story. There are key rebounds and mismatch opportunity that this team squanders and Dirk may be right at the top of the list in regards of missed opportunities at key moments in some of these games.

GlowerPower · 11-02-2017, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I won't argue that Barnes isn't playing like we may have hoped. I need more time with him this season tho.

I'm not a huge fan of stats as a whole...they don't tell the whole story. There are key rebounds and mismatch opportunity that this team squanders and Dirk may be right at the top of the list in regards of missed opportunities at key moments in some of these games.

Watching the games, he hasn't been, IMO. In fact, he kept the Utah game semi-winnable in the 4th.

You need more time with Barnes? We've had over a full season with him. He is what he is. At very best, he's a fourth option on a playoff team. Nothing more. The problem with Barnes is, he's only good at one thing. Long twos. Literally the most inefficient shot in basketball. He's a solid defender, decent three point shooter (who refuses to take more threes). That's it. Below average rebounder, can't get to the FT line, can't create for others. He isn't going to magically become someone else. Last year his BPM was -1.9 (-5.1 this year), .1 VORP, 16.3 PER, 54% TS%. This is Harrison Barnes. He's an incredibly inefficient (as a go-to guy), average player being paid a max contract and asked to be a 1 option. That is this team's biggest problem...our first option is barely a Top 100 player...

Underdog · 11-02-2017, 04:51 PM

This team is in full-on rebuild mode, so you can't judge Dirk by his stats alone (or anyone, for that matter)... The only thing to consider is if he's moving the team forward or holding the team back.

I think if we're trying to win, Dirk should be coming off the bench for about 15 MPG, at most. He slows down the pace a TON, which doesn't allow Dennis and our other quicker, younger players get into a groove at times... But the tank is on, and with Noel one foot out the door, I don't really see Dirk stealing minutes from anyone who has a future with this team (I had a different opinion about this a few games ago, but not anymore)... Plus, I've seen him getting into players' ears when he's out there, giving pointers to DSJ, Powell, Yogi, Clavell, even Barnes -- and they all seem to be super-receptive to it.

So he may be a shell of his former self (shooting aside), and these games are ugly as hell to watch, but Dirk is ultimately helping the team by being an in-game/on-court coach. I don't love seeing my all-time sports hero reduced to a support role in his twilight, but it's moving us forward, so at the end of the day every minute that he's on the floor is a positive.

Underdog · 11-02-2017, 04:55 PM

@wojespn: The NBA will hold its 2018 draft lottery on May 15 in Chicago -- the eve of the start of the draft combine there.

Mark your calendars!

GlowerPower · 11-02-2017, 05:02 PM

Since I can't start threads yet, I'll elaborate on the above. Barnes is arguably the worst "best" player in the NBA. Almost every team has at least TWO players better than Barnes. Notice how the teams close to Barnes level best player (Lakers, Atlanta, Chicago, Brooklyn), also suck. That's the real problem here.

Boston: Irving, Horford, Hayward (healthy), Jaylen Brown. (Soon, Tatum.)
Brooklyn: Russell, you can argue Demare Carroll
Knicks: Unicorn, you can argue Tim Hardaway Jr.
76ers: Embiid, Simmons, you can argue Reddick & Covington
Toronto: Lowry, Derozan, Ibaka
Chicago: Markkannen plays on just as bad a team and is already putting up 17/9 while being able to spread the floor with a superior TS%...that's already better than HB has ever been...
Cavs: Lebron, Love, IT
Detroit: Drummond, Tobias Harris, can argue Avery Bradley
Pacers: Oladipo, Turner, if he keeps it up, Sabonis, and can argue Thad Young
Bucks: Greek Freak (what could have been...), Middleton, Parker (if healthy)
ATL: Schroeder (At this pace, Tauren Prince will surpass him...)
Hornets: Kemba, D12, Batum
Heat: Dragic, Whiteside
Magic: Vuc, Gordon (someone who was actually able to evolve), Fournier
Wiz: Wall, Beal, Porter, can argue Gortat
Warriors: Lol
Clippers: Blake, Deandre, Gallinari
Lakers: Okay...maybe here. Lopez has sucked, but before this tear, Lopez. Possibly Ball and Kuzma down the line.
Suns: Warren, Booker
Kings: Maybe here...arguably George Hill, soon, Fox.
Rockets: Harden, CP3, Gordon, can argue Ariza.
Grizz: Gasol, Conley
Pels: Cousins, Davis, can argue Holliday
Spurs: Kawahi, LMA
Denver: Jokic, Millsap, soon, Murray
Wolves: Towns, Butler, Wiggins
Thunder: Westbrook, George, Melo, Adams
Portland: Dame, CJ, Nurkic
Utah: Gobert, Rubio, can argue Ingles, soon Mitchell

Underdog · 11-02-2017, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlowerPower

Since I can't start threads yet, I'll elaborate on the above. Barnes is arguably the worst "best" player in the NBA. Almost every team has at least TWO players better than Barnes. Notice how the teams close to Barnes level best player (Lakers, Atlanta, Chicago, Brooklyn), also suck. That's the real problem here.

I don't think how he ranks against the rest of the league is as relevant as how he looks next to DSJ. We can get a better player to bump Barnes down to a "Robin" role, but his reliance on ISOs slows down the flow every bit as much as Dirk's old age... His game just doesn't mesh well with Smith Jr. at all.

GlowerPower · 11-02-2017, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I don't think how he ranks against the rest of the league is as relevant as how he looks next to DSJ. We can get a better player to bump Barnes down to a "Robin" role, but his reliance on ISOs slows down the flow every bit as much as Dirk's old age... His game just doesn't mesh well with Smith Jr. at all.

That's one of the issues with Barnes. His biggest strength is mid-range ISO's, but he's not good enough or efficient enough to justify those. And bumping him to a Robin doesn't help...he isn't a Robin. I think ideally, he's the anchor of an offense off the bench (since he can't even thrive as a catch and shoot guy in a starting 5). Someone who can create for the second unit when things stagnate. But that isn't worth a max deal. HB's game also is unfortunately the very thing the current NBA is drifting away from (versatile athletes who can create, threes, motion offense).

This team won't have a real shot at being good again until HB & Wes' albatross contracts are off the books, Dirk is retired, and several more smart lottery picks.

DevinHarriswillstart · 11-02-2017, 05:40 PM

I could forgive almost all of Harrison's issues if he could rebound. That is the singular no-no that really hurts his cause.

And the Mavs signing Wes after Jordan reneged is easily one of the worst moves in franchise history. Ego Cuban decided to try and be competitive instead of tanking which should have happened. Instead they tied themselves to trying to compete the last two seasons which has been an epic fail. Signing Barnes was attached to the mistake of signing Wes so that's why that contract gets a bit more leeway. And I'd take Barnes on my team over Wes every day til Sunday.

EricaLubarsky · 11-02-2017, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

I could forgive almost all of Harrison's issues if he could rebound. That is the singular no-no that really hurts his cause.

or rebound

Bryan_Wilson · 11-02-2017, 06:16 PM

The whole team is bad. Dirk may have decent numbers for rebounds or whatever but anyone watching these games knows he is giving up more than he is getting. All stats aside he can't get back on D even when he is so far from the rim on offense. It causes smalls to be guarding a big in transition defense countless times and the guy Dirk has is usually standing 8 feet wide open for a 3 because he can't come out to defend that. Every game we seem to lose the points in paint battle and fast break points by a very very large margin. That is rim protection, perimeter defense, pnr defense, and transition defense. Dirk might be the worst at all those things on this team. Idc though because he's Dirk and we aren't going anywhere. Pretty sure the only reason Dirk's name came up was to highlight that Noel's frontcourt mate doesn't do him a lot of favors when it's Dirk he's covering for... or for that matter Powell, and Barnes as well. As many have said we just have no talent it's plain and simple.

As for Barnes He had a good year last year for a talent-less team in a new role he was more or less forced into from Dirks injury. We all thought he could maybe get some easier buckets this year with DSJ and maybe get some 3's or ft's, effectively improving from last year. Instead it's highlighted the fact that his strength as an iso player do not fit with a team trying to play fast. He's easily been the most disappointing player this season to me. Even more so than the whole Noel situation because frankly once he signed the QO I assumed he was gone anyway. But again, we are a team trying to play fast and yet the other night at one point we were down 18-1 in fast break points. The pieces are mediocre and they don't fit.

Everything is going according to plan though, bring on the otter and hopefully michael porter jr.

GlowerPower · 11-02-2017, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

The whole team is bad. Dirk may have decent numbers for rebounds or whatever but anyone watching these games knows he is giving up more than he is getting. All stats aside he can't get back on D even when he is so far from the rim on offense. It causes smalls to be guarding a big in transition defense countless times and the guy Dirk has is usually standing 8 feet wide open for a 3 because he can't come out to defend that. Every game we seem to lose the points in paint battle and fast break points by a very very large margin. That is rim protection, perimeter defense, pnr defense, and transition defense. Dirk might be the worst at all those things on this team. Idc though because he's Dirk and we aren't going anywhere. Pretty sure the only reason Dirk's name came up was to highlight that Noel's frontcourt mate doesn't do him a lot of favors when it's Dirk he's covering for... or for that matter Powell, and Barnes as well. As many have said we just have no talent it's plain and simple.

As for Barnes He had a good year last year for a talent-less team in a new role he was more or less forced into from Dirks injury. We all thought he could maybe get some easier buckets this year with DSJ and maybe get some 3's or ft's, effectively improving from last year. Instead it's highlighted the fact that his strength as an iso player do not fit with a team trying to play fast. He's easily been the most disappointing player this season to me. Even more so than the whole Noel situation because frankly once he signed the QO I assumed he was gone anyway. But again, we are a team trying to play fast and yet the other night at one point we were down 18-1 in fast break points. The pieces are mediocre and they don't fit.

Everything is going according to plan though, bring on the otter and hopefully michael porter jr.

But he really didn't. It was an incredibly average season by every metric. He scored with no efficiency on volume, and that it. He didn't rebound or create for others. Sure, if you force feed him enough shots and minutes, he can put up 16-20...but 100 guys in the league can do that.

Bryan_Wilson · 11-02-2017, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlowerPower

But he really didn't. It was an incredibly average season by every metric. He scored with no efficiency on volume, and that it. He didn't rebound or create for others. Sure, if you force feed him enough shots and minutes, he can put up 16-20...but 100 guys in the league can do that.

You never know how a dude will respond being the number 1 guy(especially when he was a 4th option before) and how he will react to defenses always guarding him with their best player, doubling him, bodying him to push him off spots etc etc. So yes, even if his TS% says he was average or his PER says he was slightly above league average I think he had a "good" season all things considered IMO. I think many hoped he could get 2-3 more FT's a game and just slightly improve his 3pt shot this season. That obviously hasn't happened. I'd trade him for a pick if I could but I think you are selling him short on how he played last year.

tap2390 · 11-02-2017, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlowerPower

But he really didn't. It was an incredibly average season by every metric. He scored with no efficiency on volume, and that it. He didn't rebound or create for others. Sure, if you force feed him enough shots and minutes, he can put up 16-20...but 100 guys in the league can do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

You never know how a dude will respond being the number 1 guy(especially when he was a 4th option before) and how he will react to defenses always guarding him with their best player, doubling him, bodying him to push him off spots etc etc. So yes, even if his TS% says he was average or his PER says he was slightly above league average I think he had a "good" season all things considered IMO. I think many hoped he could get 2-3 more FT's a game and just slightly improve his 3pt shot this season. That obviously hasn't happened. I'd trade him for a pick if I could but I think you are selling him short on how he played last year.

I see GP's point. HB was average in terms of advanced statistics, and he was force fed the ball quite a bit. That being said last year it really seemed like he was a young guy who would continue to improve and add different facets to his game until he was a borderline all-star. Now, his ceiling seems far lower than it did last year. Obviously they're in two very different situations, but it's pretty depressing to see Chandler Parsons outplay him.

GlowerPower · 11-03-2017, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tap2390

I see GP's point. HB was average in terms of advanced statistics, and he was force fed the ball quite a bit. That being said last year it really seemed like he was a young guy who would continue to improve and add different facets to his game until he was a borderline all-star. Now, his ceiling seems far lower than it did last year. Obviously they're in two very different situations, but it's pretty depressing to see Chandler Parsons outplay him.

HB isn't going to improve, is the thing. It's not like he's 21. It really is a case of he is what he is. He isn't suddenly going to learn how to create for others, rebound better, get to the FT line more, etc. The best one could hope for is for him to take and make more threes. Everyone in the NBA knew whoever maxed him out would be a cool...but MC was desperate. I just hope when we have cap flexibility again, we're smarter with it. I know it's hard to get free agents here, but we had a chance to sign Dragic a few years back and didn't. Mistakes like that add up. If we signed Dragic, drafted Greek Freak, this team might look a lot different...

mac222b · 11-03-2017, 09:02 AM

Is there any team out there that would actually take on Barnes? If we took back Asik and Solomon Hill we could get N.O.'s first round pick attached, no doubt. Are we at that point yet?