D-Hare lighting it up again! - Page 10 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

dmack24 · 12-03-2008, 11:26 AM

Kidd played Horrible again last night! I am to the point that we start Barea at pg and Jet at SG. Kidd is not producing enough to be our starting pg.

thereaper · 12-03-2008, 11:30 AM

/thread

fluid.forty.one · 12-03-2008, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmack24

Kidd played Horrible again last night! I am to the point that we start Barea at pg and Jet at SG. Kidd is not producing enough to be our starting pg.

can we get a ban on this guy for idiocy?

You've said the same thing in like 3-4 different threads, and now its leaking over to the Around the NBA/Devin Harris thread... STFU.

basketballgirl25 · 12-03-2008, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirkFTW

That's because you weren't here when things got Nashty. We know where you're coming from but we still have trouble understanding where you're going.

ok, well at least you know where I'm coming from. Just understand this, I want to try to root for Kidd and the mavs because I don't want to be like Raptor fans and boo, because I find them annoying and don't want to be like them.

fluid.forty.one · 12-03-2008, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by basketballgirl25

ok, well at least you know where I'm coming from. Just understand this, I want to try to root for Kidd and the mavs because I don't want to be like Raptor fans and boo, because I find them annoying and don't want to be like them.

You love/hate Kidd. We get that. I'm sure your fellow NJ fans would love to talk about it on their boards.

Mavs are like your 9th favorite team. Why spend so much time here, especially when most people here don't want you to?

ty · 12-03-2008, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by basketballgirl25

ok, well at least you know where I'm coming from. Just understand this, I want to try to root for Kidd and the mavs because I don't want to be like Raptor fans and boo, because I find them annoying and don't want to be like them.

DevinHarriswillstart · 12-03-2008, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

You love/hate Kidd. We get that. I'm sure your fellow NJ fans would love to talk about it on their boards.

Mavs are like your 9th favorite team. Why spend so much time here, especially when most people here don't want you to?

Harsh.

SMC0007 · 12-03-2008, 05:03 PM

Someone once said, maybe it would justify me reading her posts if she was hot. sigh....

Thespiralgoeson · 12-03-2008, 11:58 PM

I'm sorry, but the more I think about it, the more it pisses me off. I really don't see how anyone can think that this was a good trade, or how anyone can think Kidd is better for us than devin would be. Really, it's indefensible. The clippers game last night made it all too obvious. Kidd just can not get into the paint. JJB's speed and ability to get to the rim in the 4th quarter was what saved it for us. Devin is twice the player Barea will ever be.

It was just a stupid trade any way you look at it. Just really really bad.

nashtymavsfan13 · 12-04-2008, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Milkface: Dominant Destroyer!
Devin Harris Cures Cancer, Solves Crimes, Finds Lost Puppies
Mike Fisher -- DB.com

I’m not sure why we’re holding back here. SI said Devin is going to dominate the NBA for years to come and Hollinger says he has clearly established himself as the next Kevin Johnson with not only “dominance’’ but also “destruction’’? Screw Kevin Johnson. I say Magic Johnson. No, wait. … Lyndon Johnson. That’s it! Devin Harris – my old friend “Milkface’’ -- is going to impact this nation in a way comparable to that of Lyndon Johnson.
Devin Harris, the Mav-turned-Net, has inspired DB.com’s 75-Member Staff to assemble a list of his many accomplishments. For instance: Bet you didn’t know that Marlee Matlin's favorite song is Devin Harris, that Devin Harris did not "lose" his virginity, he took it to the hole and drew an And1, or that Rosa Parks refused to get out of her seat because she was saving it for Devin Harris.

More Devin Harris accomplishments:
If you have five dollars and Devin Harris has five dollars, Devin has more money than you.
There is no ctrl button on Devin's computer. Devin is always in control.
Remember al Queada? They decided to quit after watching that Suns-Nets game last night.
Contrary to popular belief, America is not a democracy, it's a Devintatorship.
When that Nets-Suns game was aired in France, the French surrendered to Devin just to be on the safe side.
Devin Harris invented the color black. In fact, he invented the entire spectrum of light. Except pink. Jason Kidd invented pink.
Devin Harris once converted a five-point play.
Little known medical fact: Devin Harris invented the Caesarean section when he crossover-dribbled his way out of his mother's womb.
Hellen Keller's favorite color is Devin Harris.
Marlee Matlin's favorite song is Devin Harris.
When J. Robert Oppenheimer said "I am become death, the destroyer Of worlds", He was not referring to the atomic bomb. He was referring to Devin Harris taking his man off the dribble.
Devin Harris is what Willis was talkin' about.
In a fight between the Federation and the Romulans, the winner would be Devin Harris.
The 11th commandment is "Thou shalt not guard Devin Harris." This commandment is rarely enforced, as it is impossible to accomplish.
They were going to release a Devin Harris edition of Clue, but the answer always turns out to be "Devin Harris. In The Library. With a Crossover Dribble."
Devin Harris did not "lose" his virginity, he took it to the hole and drew an And One
When God said, "Let there be light," Devin Harris said, "Say please."
Devin Harris can strangle a hooker with only one hand.
Champions are the breakfast of Devin Harris.
Rosa Parks refused to get out of her seat because she was saving it for Devin Harris.
A Handicap parking sign does not signify that this spot is for handicapped people. It is actually in fact a warning, that the spot belongs to Devin Harris and that you will be handicapped if you park there.
Men are okay with their wives fantasizing about Devin Harris during sex, because they are doing the same thing.
The best part of waking up is not Folgers in your cup, but knowing that Devin Harris didn't cross you over in your sleep.
Devin Harris doesn't have hair on his testicles, because hair does not grow on steel.
Devin Harris' calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Devin Harris.

Brilliance.

Ummmmm Ok · 12-04-2008, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Devin Harris doesn't have hair on his testicles, because hair does not grow on steel.

that was funny!

ghazi · 12-04-2008, 10:32 AM

dude1394 that was very interesting, although purely hypothetical.

So the Mavs, if we were to accept Accuscore as true, are a very very very slightly worse team with Kidd. However, when you consider Kidd is 10 years older and the 2 draft picks, that makes a bad trade. not a terrible trade as some make it out to be, but a bad trade.

But I don't mind either way. I'm under the mindset right now that if we do not win a title with Kidd we would not have won a title with Harris. The gap between the skill level of Harris and Kidd is much smaller than the gap beween the Mavs and the Celtics, Lakers, and Cavaliers.

My heart aches about the rigged Finals and the first round playoff exit, but my heart does not ache that we traded away Harris.

dmack24 · 12-04-2008, 10:45 AM

Here is my take on the Harris and Kidd issue.

It all depends on what you are looking for in a guard. Though in all honesty the passing and assisting PG type are a dying bread; and are less and less effective.

If I were the Celts where I had Pierce,Allen,and KG I would want a guy who could utilize their talents and get them the rock. They would not need an offensive PG. So what do they do? They get Rondo a great passer and defender to lead their team; whom is kinda in a mold of a kid. I believe Rondo was just as important to that team as anyone else and because of Rondo the big three were successfull. If they had a guard like AI or Chauncy they would not be is good because it would be a team of individuals and the offense would not be as effective; because Chauncy is thinking score first and pass second. The Celts did not need a PG to score.

The same for the Lakers. They have Kobe,Rad,Odom,Gasol. They do not need a PG to contribute points they need a guard who can help get their key scorers the rock.

Utah- Deron Williams is a great player and he makes Utah a better team; but is not because he lights it up on the score board. It is because he can find the open player and help them score. If you do not believe me look at how many guys on their team average over 10ppg.

Then you have the other spectrum.

Washington- If Antwan Jamison did not have Gilbert Arenas to help him with scoring and driving the lane that team would not have a prayer. The best example was the start of this season. Gilbert Arenas is the Washington Wizards. Washington needs a scoring pg to win and that is what they have. They would not win with the Fisher or Rondos on their teams; they do not have enough weapons for it to work.

New Orleans- Regardless of how you feel about Chris Paul he is a scoring threat. This team is nothing without him; and his scoring abilities and penetration of the lane create for David West, Peja and Tyson Chandler. Again Chris Paul is the Hornets

Detroit- When Billups played for Detroit; he made Sheed and Hamilton better players; his scoring was irreplaceable and now the Pistons will pay dearly for it while the Nuggets soar. again Billups made Detroit!

Then you have The Mavs

My theory is that Avery believed we had enough scoring threats on our team like LA and Boston, and that we needed a guard who could bring us together and utilize the scorers we had. The problem that Avery over looked is that each team listed has a SG who actually plays the SG position and other key players who can score. We simply did not have enough talent for that trade for Kidd to work. It is not Kidds fault we are losing; it is just that he is not fit for the type of team that we are. It does not mean that he could not be; if we added some key ingredients. I.e

Dirk- Gasol and KG are just as good at his position if not better
Jhow- Pierce is just as good if not better and Lamar Odom is a lil less than Josh but it is not a big drop.
Dampier- Bynum is head over heals better than Damp and the same could be said of Perkins
Jet- Not a true SG but even as a sg Allen and Kobe are better at their respective positions than Jet
Bass- was our biggest big man coming off here are the other teams!
Rad- Head over heals better than Bass and can shoot and kill you from anywhere on the court.

Celts- Played Small Ball and Mixed it up effectively with Posey.

Then you had the bench guards and Vujicic was head over heals better than what we had but House was a wash.

I just showed you that we did not have key scoring players to swing a trade like that and make it work. This is why we still struggle. Unless we get a guy at the pg position that can drive effectively look for similar results to the ones we are currently having.

fluid.forty.one · 12-04-2008, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmack24

Dirk- Gasol and KG are just as good at his position if not better

moron

mary · 12-04-2008, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmack24

Dirk- Gasol and KG are just as good at his position if not better

One of those you can make a case for.

The other one is not even close.

dalmations202 · 12-04-2008, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmack24

Dirk- Gasol and KG are just as good at his position if not better

I'm not going to argue the rest of it because opinions are opinions.
This one line is way off though.

Gasol and KG neither have put teams on their backs and made it out of the first round (at least not more than once). Last years KG team was Pierce and Allens.
Neither have the efficient range of Dirk.

Kg plays better D, Gasol has more inside bulk. Neither is as good an offensive player as Dirk.

You really hit/miss it with Kidd as well. Kidd didn't fit the Spurs -- Tony Parker role as well as Devin Harris does --- which is exactly what Avery was trying to do. Dirk didn't fit the Tim Duncan role as well either, since Duncan is mainly an inside player and Dirk and outside -- so Avery decides to try and make Dirk and inside player.

That doesn't make Kidd better or worse than Harris, just different.

Now the Mavs with Carlisle are running more -- new motion offense, which gets met with a zone quite often. Kidd can initiate fine now, with this new offense -- just give them time to learn it efficiently. Yes, they do need to make a small change or two though to get back to elite level.

Right now, they can run with any team, when they go small. They can't match up with conventional teams though in a half court set though. They do not have the frontcourt to do this because Damp/Diop have lesser offensive skills, Dirk will be doubled, and Dallas doesn't have another Big that can score inside. Dallas tries to use Bass to get these "easy" buckets, but he really isn't an inside threat due to his height.

The other way to get the "easy" buckets is to continually slash, but JHo doesn't do that much anymore-- he wants to go 1-1 because Avery put him in the Ginobili role. Iso's will work against many teams, but not really good defensive ones. This is where Wright actually has a role, because he plays good D, and slashes alot. His jumper is just good enough to keep teams honest.

While Avery was here Harris played Parker, JHo played Ginobili, and Dirk played TD. Terry played the shooter role that Fin and Barry played. Avery basically said that Damp/Diop were better than anything SA would put on the floor defensively at least. What kept them from dominating was that they didn't have that Bruce Bowen type defender, and that Dirk wasn't as good an inside player as Tim Duncan. They did get awfully close though, and barring the REF fest in the finals -- should have won a championship.

Right now though, Carlisle is trying to change the Mavs to a different style team. Some of the parts aren't fitting real well though. Stack whose game is still ISO oriented, is not a fit in a motion offense because he is too old and can't cut/lift anymore. Josh is having some issues because of it -- because he has worked so hard in being able to take guys off the dribble, instead of passing/slashing. Terry is flourishing because he is cutting and shooting -- his strengths. Dirk is adjusting as always to what is needed each game. Kidd is distributing and defending.

This team really needs a Kaman, or Camby, or Chandler, or Okafor, or JO, or Rasheed, or Bynum, etc who can force double teams down low, play good defense, and keep the double teams at a minimum for Dirk, IF they want to be elite.

Either that or get a Small forward who can score inside, but defend the 3 which Dirk can't -- without giving up the talent they have. Ex: Kirilenko, Wallace, etc.

If JHo is going to be a jump shooter, and an Iso guy --- he needs to move to SG, IMO. He needs to focus on defense, and be utilized to his strength. Terry is utilizing his strength right now -- off pick shooter. Kidd is using his strength. Dirk is not comfortable in his role, as it is changing game to game whether he is an ISO guy, a come off pick shooter, a back to the basket get doubled Tim Duncan type player, or a distributor. It is why his shot is off, but if he gets it by the end of the year -- watch out because he will be able to dominate in any style then.

They do not have that inside easy bucket threat though. If they did -- they would be truly elite. They just need that Robert Parrish type center and they could be nasty good.

Personally, if Detroit is willing to blow it up, I'd see if Rasheed were available. That would add the attitude needed to possibly get this team over the hump. I just don't think you could get him for what Dallas would want to offer.

dmack24 · 12-04-2008, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

moron

Garnett 16.5 PPG 1.1 SPG 1.4 BPG 13rpg

Gasol 17.4 ppg .94 Bpg 9.2 RPG .3 SPG

Nowitzki 24 ppg .8 steals and blocks per game. 8.9 rpg

The stats are so close it does not make a difference; and the other players have other scorers that they rely on more than themselves. Dirk is our number one option and you could argue that Garnett and Gasol are Option number two; and both produce close to dirk.

You are right Stats be Damned!

fluid.forty.one · 12-04-2008, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmack24

Garnett 16.5 PPG 1.1 SPG 1.4 BPG 13rpg

Gasol 17.4 ppg .94 Bpg 9.2 RPG .3 SPG

Nowitzki 24 ppg .8 steals and blocks per game. 8.9 rpg

The stats are so close it does not make a difference; and the other players have other scorers that they rely on more than themselves. Dirk is our number one option and you could argue that Garnett and Gasol are Option number two; and both produce close to dirk.

You are right Stats be Damned!

um

the stats are so close? The difference between their PPG and Dirks is the same as Kidds and theirs. Around 7. Couple rebounds and a block doesn't mean anything -- if they did, you wouldn't bash on Kidd so much.

Kidd is obviously as good and as important as Gasol and KG. Thank god we have him.

edit: lol your post unintentionally gives Kidd so much props. if 7 points doesn't mean anything compared to a couple rebounds and blocks, Kidd is the freaking man.

mary · 12-04-2008, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Garnett 16.5 PPG 1.1 SPG 1.4 BPG 13rpg

Gasol 17.4 ppg .94 Bpg 9.2 RPG .3 SPG

Nowitzki 24 ppg .8 steals and blocks per game. 8.9 rpg

Dude, fantasy basketball does not equal real basketball. And those scoring stats ARE NOT CLOSE.

Basic math skills be damned!

dalmations202 · 12-04-2008, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmack24

Garnett 16.5 PPG 1.1 SPG 1.4 BPG 13rpg

Gasol 17.4 ppg .94 Bpg 9.2 RPG .3 SPG

Nowitzki 24 ppg .8 steals and blocks per game. 8.9 rpg

The stats are so close it does not make a difference; and the other players have other scorers that they rely on more than themselves. Dirk is our number one option and you could argue that Garnett and Gasol are Option number two; and both produce close to dirk.

You are right Stats be Damned!

Yes, but since you start your defense with taking out the number one player -- Gasol and KG don't get game planned against near as much as Dirk either. They have it easier since they have other stars that the team has to worry about scoring.

That is what makes Dirk the better player. He is the #1 and still gets it done. KG and Gasol were the number ones in Minn and Memphis and neither could get it done consistently.

Tokey41 · 12-04-2008, 04:45 PM

Garnett could probably score as much as Dirk, it's just that he doesn't have to... he has Pierce, Allen, and Rondo to fall back on.

Our team needs Dirk more, we can't rely on Josh or Kidd to carry the team... ever.

Gasol on the other hand... what the hell are you thinking?

dmack24 · 12-04-2008, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

Garnett could probably score as much as Dirk, it's just that he doesn't have to... he has Pierce, Allen, and Rondo to fall back on.

Our team needs Dirk more, we can't rely on Josh or Kidd to carry the team... ever.

Gasol on the other hand... what the hell are you thinking?

I knew I would get the Gasol thing; but he is putting almost as much as dirk and has more rebounds and blocks a game than dirk; and he could even be considered the third option pending on whether Odom is hot or not. The fact is that we need more production from Dirk; if Dirk does not produce our teams chance of winning goes down by huge proportions. If Gasol or Garnett have an off game its ok because they have backup. In past years we had that luxury; but this year we do not. We need scorers and penetrators to win us games; and kidd lost that aspect of the game. Barrea put on a clinic in the 4th quarter on how to effectively drive and open up for your team mates; and that is what Harris is good at. The Clippers game showed us how desperately we need scorers in the front court. Kidd was great at that in his prime; but horrible at it of late. I find it Ironic that the nets struggled all year last year with R Jefferson and Carter; and now they have Harris and they are tremendously better than last year; is it ironic? Then we get Kidd and we begin to struggle ourselves. I just dont understand how people drink this Kool-aid and believe everything to be alright. We gave up two first rounders and a decent pg for an old broken down slowly declining Jason Kidd!

dmack24 · 12-04-2008, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

Dude, fantasy basketball does not equal real basketball. And those scoring stats ARE NOT CLOSE.

Basic math skills be damned!

Give Dirk ;Kobe, Odom, and Rad and see if his production goes up or down. Id bet you money his numbers would look like Gasols.

We are very one dimensional- you shut down Dirk you win! The last two years in the playoffs painfully showed us that Dirk cannot do it alone anymore and clearly needs help in the front court to take tension off of him; whether it be a PG or Sg. I love Jet but he is not built to play the 2 guard position. That is why he is our six man coming off the bench.
Our team is like a puzzle and we have yet to find that missing piece. I believe personally it is two pieces. A Center who can actually rebound, and a SG who is above 6-4 who can score from all areas of the court. My Ideal pickups would be Jason Richardson and Ben Wallace. Ben even though old can still rebound and Richardson is a scoring threat wherever he goes. If you run Kidd with those kind of players the difference in our team would be night and day.

AxdemxO · 12-04-2008, 05:30 PM

WoW I cant believe people are still on this KG vs Dirk thing. They mite have been close at one point, but it is simple now that KG has won a title (dont give me all the crap about who he won it with) KG is better. Maybe not by much...but hes always been a better overall player and with the title he ahead of Dirk. AS for Gasol...Dirk has been better ...and if he ever again plays like alil girl (like he did in the beginning of the season) then Gasol mite overtake him, but I dont see that happening.

KG
Dirk
Gasol

Dirkadirkastan · 12-04-2008, 07:42 PM

Yep, this one year outweighs Dirk's eight straight years of taking mediocre teams through the playoffs and Garnett wallowing around at the bottom of basketball sucktitude.

mary · 12-04-2008, 10:01 PM

I remember one year some fans thought Peja had surpassed Dirk.

Those people were idiots too.

basketballgirl25 · 12-04-2008, 10:50 PM

I've always found Garnett a better player then Dirk, I don't know he just seems more hardcore then Dirk and a better player then Dirk

Gasol I wouldn't say is better then Dirk or Dirk is better then him, I think they are both about the same right now, both are great players

alby · 12-04-2008, 11:28 PM

^ girl25

please remove basketball from your name

AxdemxO · 12-05-2008, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Yep, this one year outweighs Dirk's eight straight years of taking mediocre teams through the playoffs and Garnett wallowing around at the bottom of basketball sucktitude.

Blaahhh Blaahh Blaaah Dirks the only player ever to take a"mediocre" team thru the playoffs. Finley, Nash, Jamison, NVE, were all around and you can throw tht out there all you want. Was Sprewell and Cassell better then Finley and Nash...IMO NO.

99% of people that are honest and know anything about basketball will tell you that KG is better then Dirk and that Dirk for the most part is better then Gasol

Dirkadirkastan · 12-05-2008, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

Blaahhh Blaahh Blaaah Dirks the only player ever to take a"mediocre" team thru the playoffs. Finley, Nash, Jamison, NVE, were all around and you can throw tht out there all you want. Was Sprewell and Cassell better then Finley and Nash...IMO NO.

Garnett has never taken a mediocre team through the playoffs.

Quote:

99% of people that are honest and know anything about basketball will tell you that KG is better then Dirk

And their ignorant opinions usually sound something like this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by basketballgirl25

I've always found Garnett a better player then Dirk, I don't know he just seems more hardcore then Dirk and a better player then Dirk

chumdawg · 12-05-2008, 12:35 AM

It's been close to ten years since Dirk was on a mediocre NBA team. Not sure what you guys are talking about.

AxdemxO · 12-05-2008, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Garnett has never taken a mediocre team through the playoffs.

And their ignorant opinions usually sound something like this:

Give me a reason why Dirk is better?? Before it was always ohh Dirk is better becuz he took his team further. Because its Obvious that Garnett is as good as or better in every part of the game. maybe you can gove Dirk some on offense because hes a better shooter. But now Garnett has won a title and guess what Dirk hasnt, soo you can live in the past all you want but KG is got something that Dirk doesnt and hes better, If Dirk gets that title then they will be there again.

AxdemxO · 12-05-2008, 01:03 AM

Dont get me wrong, I am not saying its night and day type of thing, its not a huge difference, but KG is better

fluid.forty.one · 12-05-2008, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

Dont get me wrong, I am not saying its night and day type of thing, its not a huge difference, but KG is better

Your stance on this does not surprise me one bit.

AxdemxO · 12-05-2008, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Your stance on this does not surprise me one bit.

it shouldn't because althou I love Dirk, I can say the truth.

AxdemxO · 12-05-2008, 01:18 AM

Bring bak tht old thread Dirk vs KG and lets see what we all thought bak then.

according to you guys Dirk has never had a good team around him, even when Nash and Fin were here

alby · 12-05-2008, 01:33 AM

KG is an overrated superstar, similar to Favre.

ty · 12-05-2008, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

but it is simple now that KG has won a title (dont give me all the crap about who he won it with)

How is that crap? You don't think that Dirk would have won a title by now with Pierce and Allen?

KG won a title the year he gets put with two other legit all-stars. Don't try to hide the fact that that happened.

KG by himself hasn't done sh*t. Look for yourself at his playoff record before Boston.

It's not crap. It matters.

Dirkadirkastan · 12-05-2008, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

It's been close to ten years since Dirk was on a mediocre NBA team. Not sure what you guys are talking about.

Dirk is the reason this hasn't been a mediocre team.

KG is also the reason Minnesota didn't absolutely suck big hairy balls this entire decade... oh wait.

basketballgirl25 · 12-05-2008, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alby

KG is an overrated superstar, similar to Favre.

yeah Garnett is overrated, but so is Dirk