What Cuban Said About Avery...

[Dirkenstien]

The funny thing is Avery assembled this roster exactly how he wanted it and then after leaving he berated that team's talent.

Doesn't that essentially mean he is criticizing his own work?

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by ty

Don't you know Dirk wears "homerfied mavs-colored-glasses" too?

clarifying a thing or two,

my comment on "homerfied mavs-colored-glasses" was a response to the contention that the mavs had two nba titles in the bag and only lost them because of avery johnson.

dirk has said that "it's a players league", and I completely agree with dirk, unlike the majority of folks around here who think every loss is a product of poor coaching decisions.

[Kidd Karma]

AS long as Rick's door is open to the players, he will do fine. I think the talent was there, I mean shooters, like Dirk/Terry, slashers like Howard and Stack, playmaker like Kidd, bigs like Damp/Bass. When you allow Kidd to playmake and just find the open man, that creates a 5 on 5 game. When you ISO Dirk, it becomes 1 on 5. You spot up a guy like Terry on the weakside, not Kidd. Kidd won't give Dirk the necessary space to work. It's all about the system. Do you go out and improve the club if you can, sure. Diop was a huge loss, but AVery wasn't using him. Stack is getting up there in age, posters here suggest a CJ Miles for the remainder of the MLE, combine that with Antoine Wright and Lue with a full TC, that's 11 players of varying experience and talents, melded together, will a squad to be reckoned with. Toss in the fact that Kidd has a chip on his shoulder, last time that happened, 01-02 following the trade to exile in NJ.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by dude1394

So please tell me why then that ko'ach decided to beat the one team(clippers) that had a chance to overtake the dubs for the last playoff spot, while deciding NOT to compete against the team (dubs) that had kicked their ass all year?

Does that smack of a smart coach, a guy who you (as an employer) would trust to make correct decisions for your career. .

see my remarks here under the heading of "second guessing avery"....

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by Kidd Karma

AS long as Rick's door is open to the players, he will do fine. I think the talent was there, I mean shooters, like Dirk/Terry, slashers like Howard and Stack, playmaker like Kidd, bigs like Damp/Bass. When you allow Kidd to playmake and just find the open man, that creates a 5 on 5 game. When you ISO Dirk, it becomes 1 on 5. You spot up a guy like Terry on the weakside, not Kidd. Kidd won't give Dirk the necessary space to work. It's all about the system. Do you go out and improve the club if you can, sure. Diop was a huge loss, but AVery wasn't using him. Stack is getting up there in age, posters here suggest a CJ Miles for the remainder of the MLE, combine that with Antoine Wright and Lue with a full TC, that's 11 players of varying experience and talents, melded together, will a squad to be reckoned with. Toss in the fact that Kidd has a chip on his shoulder, last time that happened, 01-02 following the trade to exile in NJ.

i'm right there with you -- just wait 'til next year.

[ty]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

firstly.....the "coach didn't put us in a position to win" is the sort of cliched tripe that can't really be addressed in any meaningful way because....well, because it is cliched tripe.

Why? Then what is the purpose of the coach? To put us in a position to lose? To not put us in any position at all?

I'm thinking you are a firm believer of Avery's ISO based offense? An offense that has definitely put us in the best position to win?

Originally Posted by alexamenos

2ndly.....i question the basketball iq of people

...how witty...rolls eyes

Originally Posted by alexamenos

who don't understand how bad the mavs matchup v. the dubs was in '07 -- i didn't see it going into the series, but after 6 games it was patently obvious to me how the mavs were constitutionally incapable of exploiting any of the warriors weaknesses, and how the mav weaknesses were aligned nigh on perfectly with the warriors strengths....to wit --

First of all, you love to make assumptions, because I never said we matched up well against them. But truth is, adjustments are everything--and good teams make them. We were a good team in '07. We wouldn't have won 67 games without being one.

Not matching up well against a team does not equate to being embarrassed in the way that we were. It's up to the coach to make adjustments. Not the players.

Originally Posted by alexamenos

thirdly....as for how the mavs got past gs this year.....maybe the fact that Jason Richardson plays for the Bobcats has a little something to do with this?

...and little to do with the changes Avery made I'm guessing?

Originally Posted by alexamenos

finally.....why do i say avery did a fine job in '07? That stretch where the mavs went 51-5 and played some of the most unbelievably fucking good basketball for a period of months that i've ever seen comes to mind. those who take that for granted as if such a thing can happen in spite of bad coaching are clueless.

You give Avery all the love in the world for 67 wins, but you turn your face when it comes to the playoffs in '07. Mind boggling. Simply, mind boggling.

Also, are your shift keys broken?

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

see my remarks here under the heading of "second guessing avery"....

Okay here they are:

In no particular order:

1. It's easy to over-analyze things and there's nothing harder to admit in sports than the other team just kicked our butts....

Hat's off to the Warriors. They played some great ball. Aside from the fact that they don't have a center and that their most eloquent speaker of the english language is arguably Andres Biedrens, they're a pretty good team. Their D was light-years better than I expected.

2. I love Dirk. Yeah, he sucked in this series but I still love Dirk.

We shall have tremendous Dirk hatred in the months to come and next regular season will be one long Dirk-Doubtfest, perhaps deservedly so. Still...he's the best Mav b-ball player ever, he's far and away the best player on the team right now and he wasn't the only playoff no-show.

Lot's of people will opine that the Mavs must ditch Dirk. Unless a fellow can tell me specifically who the Mavs SHOULD and CAN get to replace Dirk, I don't have the slightest interest in any knee-jerking trade-Dirk talk.

3. 2nd Guessing Avery. I'm not so sure that any of the second guesses would have changed the outcome of this series....

....Game 81 -- Nothing I have seen since that Tuesday in Oakland makes me think the Mavs would have won that game.

....Small Ball -- the Mavs were 2-3 against the Warriors while not playing small ball and Dirk, Stack, Terry et al didn't no-show in game 1 because Devean George started at the 5.

etc., etc....

4. Players not named Dirk.

Elsewhere in this forum I've read something to the effect of "it is a well-established fact that the surrounding talent on this team are very good." Personally, I don't know how well-established this is.

Was J-Ho better than J-Rich? Was anyone on the Mavs better than Stephen Jackson? Which maverick not named Dirk is better than Manu Ginobilli, Tony Parker, Amare Stoudemire or Shawn Marion? Which Mav not named Dirk could start for the Detroit Pistons? Which of these players doesn't start for the Mavs: Deron Williams, Andre Kirelinko, Matt Harpring, Mehmet Okur and Carlos Boozer?

Harris and Diop -- gamers that I hope are wearing mavs jersies for a long, long time;
JET -- if he's a sixth man of the year candidate, we mavs fans will be in a much better mood this time next year;
J-Ho -- I love his game and his energy, but I have bigger doubts about J-Ho as Robin than about Dirk as Batman. This series showed how bad the Mavs are as a passing team, and nobody on the team is a worse passer than J-Ho;
Croshere -- Arguably the toughest and most physical guy in the series, and that's a very sad statement;
George and Buck -- one of the two is ok, the other is just redundant;
Stack -- the dude's legs are deader than mine;
Damp -- notwithstanding his shortcomings, you gotta have him on the team;
Other guys = ROYS

5. Just wait 'til next year, hope springs eternal and whatnot. All things considered, at least they don't suck as much as the Texas Rangers.

Cheers

Call me dense, whatever. I assume you are talking about games 81 with respect to me post. Color me unconvinced.

1. Maybe, maybe not, but he sure didn't attempt to do so. Was that the right "coaching" move to instill in the team?
2. Why did he do the dry run AGAINST the clippers? Why beat THAT team.

Please help me, here, it looks like the ko'ach was totally oblivious to the big picture here, who WOULD want to follow someone who is that dense?

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I want you to explain "good enough". I don't follow your point. Whether they are good enough to win a title has nothing to do with the current topic of this thread. Do they have to win a title to justify firing Avery in your mind?

My point is a question, "What do you think is good enough, and what do you think the mavs need to do to get there?"

I gather you think the coaching change will make us at least a modicum better than we were. I find it hard to believe that you think a first round exit after 2 wins with better MOV is satisfactory.



Will you be happy with a first round exit next year just because you won't have to look at Avery? Or do you think that the Mavs need to/should make more changes than they have in order to improve on what they've done?


edit: Maybe more clearly:

Will the new coach make us into what you think we would have been if we had a better coach than Avery? What is that?

[jthig32]

I think the Mavs core is pefectly capable of being a title contender, if properly motivated, properly used, properly supplemented by role players that are actually good at basketball, and their head is right with ball (this means you Josh Howard).

How's that?

[DevinHarriswillstart]

For about 5 possessions one game this season, Avery decided not to go with a point guard when he had Kidd, Lue and Barea. All of them were healthy at that point. This was a game against the Spurs too.

Anyone who doesn't think Avery misused the team this season, is clueless.

[alby]

Avery Johnson isn't a bad coach. He just isn't a championship-caliber coach.

Avery Johnson, even with his run to the Finals in '06, taking the "team further than any other coach (blah blah)" in Dallas history, has a mediocre playoff record. And for a team that has made the playoffs and won 50+ games for 8 straight years, aren't wins in the playoffs the only thing we should care about?

I never considered Byron Scott a great coach but his playoff record looks sparkling when compared to Avery's. IMHO, the biggest argument against Avery is that Dallas's team was superior to Miami's but he allowed Pat Riley to outcoach him and Dallas's team was 25 games better than Golden State's last year but he allowed Nellie to outcoach him there as well. Upsets are not unheard of, but when an inferior team beats a superior team 4 times out of 7 games or less in back to back years, coaching is a very BIG reason.

Here are the 16 coaches that were in the playoffs this year and their career playoff records. You can throw out Phil Jackson and Greg Popovich, that's just unfair to Avery--that's like comparing DeShawn Stevenson to Lebron James, just not in the same class =p

Phil Jackson: 186-79 (.702)
Greg Popovich: 98-55 (.641)
Byron Scott: 32-18 (.640)
Stan Van Gundy: 22-16 (.579)
Mike Brown: 25-19 (.568)
Mike D'Antoni: 26-25 (.510)
Jerry Sloan: 93-93 (.500)
Rick Adelman: 72-72 (.500)
Flip Saunders: 45-47 (.489)
Avery Johnson: 23-24 (.489)
Doc Rivers: 15-19 (.441)
Mike Woodson: 3-4 (429)
George Karl: 62-83 (.428)
Maurice Cheeks: 5-11 (.313)
Eddie Jordan: 8-18 (308)
Sam Mitchell: 3-8 (.273)

As you can see, Avery is an average coach. Not a bad one, but not a great one either. However, with Avery being in the middle of the pack as far as coaching playoff records go, the Dallas teams during his tenure have not been middle of the pack talent wise imo. It's not that bold of a statement to say that the Dallas Mavericks have been in the upper echelon of teams, one of the few teams with legitimate aspirations for a championship (I know this because that's what the NBA Live ratings suggest!). =]

Let's just say San Antonio, Los Angeles, Utah, New Orleans, Phoenix, Detroit, Boston, Cleveland, and Dallas are the only teams to have owned real shots at the title in the previous 3 seasons, eliminating Toronto, Washington, Philly, Denver, Atlanta, Houston, and Orlando from the equation---Avery is clearly towards the bottom of this list of head coaches.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I think the Mavs core is pefectly capable of being a title contender, if properly motivated, properly used, properly supplemented by role players that are actually good at basketball, and their head is right with ball (this means you Josh Howard).

How's that?

I think they could contend with who they have, but it would be a lot easier if they improved the roster.

But, so that I might better understand the emphasis on Avery, if I understand you, this team has a core that is a title contender, and that JHo is not part of that core, and you will hold Rick Carlisle to that standard, and expect him to live up to it? And to parallel with this past season, if JHo and the other role players don't perform, it's Carlisle's fault?

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by alby

Avery Johnson isn't a bad coach. He just isn't a championship-caliber coach.

You give avery more props than I do. Especially watching him pull that crap with jkidd against the spurts, that puts him in the completely moronic idiot ranking to me.

But it's a good point and a good list. I'd take any coach on that list over the one we just fired.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by alby

Avery Johnson isn't a bad coach. He just isn't a championship-caliber coach.

Avery Johnson, even with his run to the Finals in '06, taking the "team further than any other coach (blah blah)"

Flip Saunders: 45-47 (.489)
Avery Johnson: 23-24 (.489)
Doc Rivers: 15-19 (.441)

Rick Carlisle's post season record is .484
Have we improved the coaching spot or just hit "refresh" on expectations we are not satisfied with?

[alby]

Having a different coaching style with different offensive / defensive schemes have already improved this same team by 3-5 wins. Now, if we adjust the roster a little, that improvement can easily be at 5+ games for 2008/2009.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by ty

Why? Then what is the purpose of the coach? To put us in a position to lose? To not put us in any position at all?

because the cliche about "put players in the right position" is usually a cliche that begs the question of whether the players were in the right position but just didn't make the play.

I'm thinking you are a firm believer of Avery's ISO based offense? An offense that has definitely put us in the best position to win?

avery didn't invent the "iso" based offense -- the notion that the best play in basketball is to give the damn ball to the best player on your team and get the hell out of his way goes back about Dr. Naismith's time.....

what i defend is that it is not at all unreasonable to give the ball to the best player on the mavs team who happens to be a nightmare one-on-one matchup in most cases. that is....

i like it when the mavs give the ball to dirk. if you want to argue that giving the ball to dirk is a mistake, then make the argument, but at least recognize that the other side is not going way out on a limb and that it is not the height of coaching stupidity to do such a thing.

as for the vaunted adjustments that coaches make and don't make etc., etc....

weaknesses are weaknesses because a roster won't permit any coaching adjustment to overcome the weakness. you'll never see a case where a team's weakness of having no dominant inside player is overcome because the coach suddenly realizes that he can just substitute a guy into a game who is sitting three or four chairs down the row from him.

anyhoo -- the mavs got beat last season primarily because of these factors -- 1) no big, interior offense that could take advantage of dubs small ball; and 2) the mediocre passing and ball handling of the mavericks guards and forwards was very susceptible to the dubs high pressure perimeter defense.

i don't know what johnson could have done to overcome these weaknesses, and that is precisely my point.

You give Avery all the love in the world for 67 wins, but you turn your face when it comes to the playoffs in '07. Mind boggling. Simply, mind boggling.

it's not mindboggling, really, as long as one doesn't try to read some simple one-factor explanation into every complex thing.

at the least...avery's coaching performance during the 51-5 was not so horrible that he prevented the team from having an unprecedented run -- whatever he was doing during this stretch, i don't have a problem with it. iow, his job performance during this period was "fine", in my estimation.

moreover, had the mavericks played the gs dubs 50 or so time during that 56 game stretch, I doubt they would have gone 51-5.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Okay here they are:


Call me dense, whatever. I assume you are talking about games 81 with respect to me post. ...

yeah, game 81 was the game in oakland that featured jjb and mo ager heavily. i don't find the 2nd guessing compelling at all -- i just don't find the argument that, given the benefit of hindsight, avery should have done something very differently.

[alby]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

Rick Carlisle's post season record is .484
Have we improved the coaching spot or just hit "refresh" on expectations we are not satisfied with?

I knew a mentioning of Rick Carlisle's playoff record would come up. To dig deeper into Rick Carlisle.

2001/02: 4-6 (.400)
Lost to Boston Celtics in Eastern Conference Semifinals
Detroit's starting 5 (Chucky Atkins, Jon Barry, Stack, Clifford Robinson, Corliss Williamson)
Hardly a team closely resembling the talent of the Mavericks

2002/03: 8-9 (.471)
Lost to New Jersey Nets in the Eastern Conference Finals
IMO, this was Carlisle's best team ever.
He had a young Chauncey, Rip, and Tayshaun and Detroit was definitely on the rise.
Most of you know, this is where he was screwed by the Detroit franchise by firing him and hiring Larry Brown. (Think Stan Van Gundy and Riley)

2003/04: 16-10 (.625)
Lost to Detroit Pistons in the Eastern Conference Finals
His first year in Indiana and he led them to a 58-24 record in the regular season and a birth to the ECF and his second consecutive appearance with two different teams (unheard of).

2004/05: 6-7 (.462)
Lost to Detroit Pistons in the Eastern Semifinals
The brawl year, no Artest, who at the time was widely regarded as the best two-way player in the game.

2005/06: 2-4 (.333)
Lost to New Jersey Nets in the first round.
The team was 41-41 in the regular season and was literally outmatched, being the 8th seed against Kidd and the Nets.

---

I feel Carlisle could have done something special in 03/04 if he were a Piston's coach, he built that team only to watch someone else take it over. Also, I feel Carlisle could have done something special in 04/05 if it weren't for the brawl, they were considered the favorites to come out of the East with a suspenion-less team.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Almost no coach has a W-L record significantly better than .500 in the playoffs.

[alby]

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Almost no coach has a W-L record significantly better than .500 in the playoffs.

Exactly half have winning records and half have losing records.

Now, out of the coaches with losing records.. who have had the best team the last 3 years?

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by alby

I knew a mentioning of Rick Carlisle's playoff record would come up. To dig deeper into Rick Carlisle.

If the raw win percentage isn't diagnostic, why post like it is?
Why not give the same kind of excuses to Avery?

I feel Carlisle could have done something special in 03/04 if he were a Piston's coach, he built that team only to watch someone else take it over. Also, I feel Carlisle could have done something special in 04/05 if it weren't for the brawl, they were considered the favorites to come out of the East with a suspenion-less team.

well, if warm fuzzy projections of chocolate cities and butterflies got us anywhere, we would have a couple championships right now.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

yeah, game 81 was the game in oakland that featured jjb and mo ager heavily. i don't find the 2nd guessing compelling at all -- i just don't find the argument that, given the benefit of hindsight, avery should have done something very differently.

Really so the end of the year is coming up. You have games with the dubs and the clippers. You see that the dubs have beaten your brains out all year long.

When you play the clippers you play your starters as your tune-up.
When you play the dubs you throw the game.

Helping the dubs to get that 8th seed? Would YOU not want to a void them?

[alby]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

If the raw win percentage isn't diagnostic, why post like it is?
Why not give the same kind of excuses to Avery?

well, if warm fuzzy projections of chocolate cities and butterflies got us anywhere, we would have a couple championships right now.

okay fine.

2004/2005: lost to Phoenix
outcoached in the first round by JVG--but, adjusted and trapped Tmac as soon as he got the ball imo this was Avery's best moment as a head coach.
didn't know how to coach against Steve Nash, (a preview of things to come against defending point guards)

2005/2006: lost to Miami
had the vastly superior team to the Heat only to be outcoached by Riley in the finals, and the rest is history

2006/2007: lost to Golden State
his team was 25 games better than Nellie's. you can talk about matchups all you want, but 25 games is 25 games. Dallas was a better team and AJ just got outcoached. didn't know how to coach against Baron.

2007/2008: lost to New Orleans
inability to coach against the other team's point guard, when his entire playing career was based on being smart/crafty at the point guard position. New Orleans was the better team, so AJ get's a half pass here. However, that doesn't justify not knowing how to utilize Kidd/Dirk effectively and playing Stack/JJB/George during the most important stretch of game 4 (lol that still makes me laugh).

[alexamenos]

how many times do i have to say basically the same thing?

2 minutes into game 81, i didn't have a problem with johnson playing jjb and mo ager and resting dirk.

when the mavs played the clips a week earlier, it never occured to me that they should sandbag that game.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by alby

okay fine.
.

wow. that's not really the same kind of excuses. Thanks for backing up the point I made about Avery bashing.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by dude1394

You give avery more props than I do. Especially watching him pull that crap with jkidd against the spurts, that puts him in the completely moronic idiot ranking to me.

But it's a good point and a good list. I'd take any coach on that list over the one we just fired.

Yea, remember what Avery said about taking Kidd out at that juncture? He wanted an extra shooter....yet in his basic offensive set, Kidd would hand the ball off and spot himself up on the weakside, that spot should be primarily for your best shooter, when Kidd's defender inevitably leaves Kidd to double Dirk, that creates an open jump shot after a 2nd pass to Kidd. ...that's one of the reasons I'd love to see Redd here next year, Kidd would play at the top of the key to get the kick out from Dirk, quickly pass to Redd on the weakside.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by alby

2005/2006: lost to Miami
had the vastly superior team to the Heat only to be outcoached by Riley in the finals, and the rest is history

that the mavs were the "vastly superior team" is one of those statements that I have to say "not so sure about that..."

I distinctly remember watching the pistons-heat series and thinking "when did the pistons become just a jump-shooting team? and when did they become such a pathetic jump-shooting team?"

the heat may have played pretty uninspired ball during the regular season, but they thumped the bulls and the nets pretty good, and the mavs weren't the only 60+ team that they made look really impotent that year.

[ty]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

because the cliche about "put players in the right position" is usually a cliche that begs the question of whether the players were in the right position but just didn't make the play.

I disagree. It's really not cliche at all. IMO, you're over thinking it. You have to put the players in the right position before they are even capable of making things happen.

To me, it comes down to this: it works or it doesn't. You can't force something that doesn't work to work. We can just stick to talking about Avery's offensive "prowess" (Defense was a whole different can of chaos). What about our offense in last years humiliation against GS was fine? Do you really think Avery brought the best out of our team in that series with his offensive set?...out of Dirk?

I personally think that Avery used something that didn't work...and not only that, but he stuck with it. That's definitely not a stretch to say because we've all seen how stubborn/stuck to his ways this man can be (i.e. dealing with Kidd, dealing with Devin, not listening to his assistants). He was a complete control freak, and in the end, it didn't work.

There are different ways to get your best player involved. An "iso" based offense is a general term. "Avery's iso based offense" isn't. The way he got his best player involved in that '07 series was destined to fail. (1) The team was distributed on the court in a way that cut off Dirk's passing lanes when he would get doubled/tripled, (2) Dirk was put in a position where it was simple for helpside to attack, (3) Dirk was put in places to be easily trapped.

All I'm getting from you is that we were helpless last year--that nobody would have been able to coach this Mavericks team to a series win against GS. I beg to differ. Putting Dirk in a position where he is easily screwed and is a non-factor is not putting a team in a position to win.

What Avery brought to the team didn't work. I don't believe in: he was "a good coach......until this year" as you seem to put it. If you're a bad coach, then you're a bad coach, and to me, he's always been a bad coach.

[alby]

Are you guys really defending Avery Johnson?

Like ty mentioned, Avery's inaptitude on the offenside side of the ball, even when he HAS a Dirk Nowitzki, Jason Terry, Josh Howard, Jason Kidd, etc. put the Mavericks at a distinct disadvantage. The coach's job is to put the team in the best possible position to win and Avery failed in this respect as a head coach, there's no sugarcoating that--I'm sorry. We all know that Avery's fortes as a head coach are leadership and motivation, and not X's and O's. But, do you guys feel that the team was led in the right direction this year? Do you guys think the team's potential and motivation were maximized?

[Dirkenstien]

Originally Posted by alby

Are you guys really defending Avery Johnson?

We're not, but some are.


I just don't see how anyone can defend the guy. He berated our team and publicly stated that the Mavericks are not a good team and that the only reason they experienced any success was due to his coaching.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by alby

Are you guys really defending Avery Johnson?

From what I can see, what's common about what "we" are doing is maybe suggesting that we would all be better off if everything didn't always devolve into "so it's avery's fault"

[purplefrog]

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

The funny thing is Avery assembled this roster exactly how he wanted ....

Do we know this for sure? Going back to a question I asked in another thread, who decides on personnel? Is it the coach... the GM?... or does it depend on who we like or dislike? I'm still trying to figure out what responsibilities our GM actually has????? Does he take orders from the coach???

Avery: "Hey Donnie go get me Eddie Jones before he heads to the assisted living facility?"
Donnie: "Whatever you say Lil General!"

[alby]

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

We're not, but some are.


I just don't see how anyone can defend the guy. He berated our team and publicly stated that the Mavericks are not a good team and that the only reason they experienced any success was due to his coaching.

I just can't understand how this self-centered, egotistical, overrated coach can be defended. I just can't.

[alby]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

From what I can see, what's common about what "we" are doing is maybe suggesting that we would all be better off if everything didn't always devolve into "so it's avery's fault"

Most people know when a team loses to another team, there are many factors that contribute to the outcome. I don't think anyone is saying it was just strictly Avery's fault. All I'm saying is that Avery was a big reason for the three humiliating defeats, and in some regards, the biggest reason.

[ty]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

From what I can see, what's common about what "we" are doing is maybe suggesting that we would all be better off if everything didn't always devolve into "so it's avery's fault"

Why would we be better off?

Many things are pointing to the fact that it was Avery's fault. His selfishness, his adjustments, the statements of people within the organization, Dallas sportswriters...etc.

I never said that it was all Avery's fault. I completely understand that there are other flaws on this team, but I'll stick to the fact that I believe a large portion of it was on Avery.

Blame should be expected where blame is due.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by alby

Most people know when a team loses to another team, there are many factors that contribute to the outcome. I don't think anyone is saying it was just strictly Avery's fault. All I'm saying is that Avery was a big reason for the three humiliating defeats, and in some regards, the biggest reason.

great. Avery's gone. You shouldn't let your hatred for him sugarcoat Carlisle, or ignore the remaining deficiencies.

[ty]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

great. Avery's gone. You shouldn't let your hatred for him sugarcoat Carlisle, or ignore the remaining deficiencies.

Nobody is sugarcoating Carlisle. The mainpoint is that any idiot could have a chance of doing better than the mockery that Avery Johnson has made of this franchise.

[Dirkenstien]

Originally Posted by purplefrog

Do we know this for sure? Going back to a question I asked in another thread, who decides on personnel? Is it the coach... the GM?... or does it depend on who we like or dislike? I'm still trying to figure out what responsibilities our GM actually has????? Does he take orders from the coach???

Avery: "Hey Donnie go get me Eddie Jones before he heads to the assisted living facility?"
Donnie: "Whatever you say Lil General!"

That's a good question and I imagine all three (Cuban,Donnie, and Avery) had some kidn of say in it but I would think it goes something like this:

Donnie: "Hey, Avery, tell me what you need for this team to succeed and I'll work my ass off to get it for you."

Avery: "I want seasoned veterans who can accept a role, defend, and do what I tell them, like what they have in San Antonio. You get me those guys and I'll make it happen on the court."

Donnie: "Okay, I'll come back to you with a list of the best options on the market according to what you want, you choose which guys you want me to go after, and then I'll do my best to get them in a Mavs uniform."

Avery: "Sounds good, now where'd I put my dang Gumbo?"

From that point Mark gets involved once contract negotiations and salary issues come up.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by ty

Nobody is sugarcoating Carlisle. The mainpoint is that any idiot could have a chance of doing better than the mockery that Avery Johnson has made of this franchise.

go back and reread alby's description of Carlisles postseasons v. alby's description of Avery's.
If I'd described Avery's with no coaching faults and tons of external circumstance, wouldn't you say I was sugarcoating Avery's record?

[ShaggyDirk]

My cat is scratching the shit out of my neighbors new lawn chair cushion.