Toronto trade involving Finley

[kg_veteran]

Courtesy of sKen over at LMF:

I've been over this repeatedly and just can't fathom the thought of cutting Fin and still improving the team.



With that in mind I tried to find the pieces that fit what Dallas is said to be looking for in trade for Fin (expiring contract and a useful player). The issue is that there just are not many of those combinations up for dealing right now. However, IF Dallas were to relax that stance just a bit and take back a combination of players AND a large salary while giving up Fin and a useful player something could make a lot of sense.



Dallas Trades:

Micheal Finley and Jerry Stackhouse

($23.438 million)



to





Toronto:

Jalen Rose, Lamond Murray, and Aaron Williams

($24.32 million)



Here is the catch:

Rose comes off a year earlier than Mike which saves 18.6 million in the 3rd year of the deal. Murray and Williams come off a year ahead of Stack which saves 8 million in year 2. Combined that saves 26.6 off the cap and 53.2 million off the combined TAX. This is a better financial deal than cutting Finley. Toronto wins in the talent dept, BUT Dallas gets a backup C in Williams, which prevents the Hunter chase from being a front running issue (saving even more money up front); Rose lessens the need for a 3rd PG and can run with Daniels or a Christie should that need arise.



Toronto might want Daniels instead of Stack which actually helps the long term financial gains (after year 3) and still represents near 6 million in savings for 06-07. That would cause me a bit of hesitation, but probably would not change my mind that this is a trade that we should pursue.



The good news for Toronto is that they can point to this trade as the 2nd half of the Vince Carter deal where they trade Vince and Jalen and come away with Fin and Stack.

My comments:

I have no idea what Toronto's long-term plan is, so it's tough for me to comment on whether they'd do the deal or not, but I certainly like the trade for Dallas.

From a talent standpoint, I think Rose is at least a lateral move compared to Stackhouse, and his skill set might fit better here than Stackhouse's does. Rose is a bad defender, but Stackhouse isn't exactly great in that department. On offense, Rose has better ballhandling, penetrating and playmaking ability and can shoot the ball from the perimeter. I think that fits better with an offense built around Dirk than what Stackhouse brings. So, I guess what I'm saying is, I'd probably trade Stackhouse for Rose if it were financially possible as a standalone deal, much less doing it in combination with a Finley move.

Finley for Aaron Williams (Murray would surely be waived) has to be considered a good trade for Dallas. You get the backup center you want without delving into the MLE and you get the financial savings to boot.

Use the amnesty provision on Bradley and buy out TAW. Add Doug Christie and a 3rd PG.

Dampier - Williams - M'Benga - Pavel
Nowitzki - KVH - Powell
Howard - Daniels
Rose - Christie - Marshall
Terry - Harris - 3rd PG

I'd feel pretty good about that team.

[Eman]

KG, why do you like williams for our backup center????

[dalmations202]

Still paying luxury on alot of money for two years, and does this put you in the position to "win it all"?

I guess, if you are going to pay a load of luxury tax anyway, why wouldn't you just hold on to Fin/Stack? Seems to me like you are in just as good of shape, and Stacks $$$ run out quicker.

Rose for Stack, IMO, lateral move at best, but incur a longer contract.
Fin for Willams, less talent.

I am not sure I could jump on board with this trade. Of course, I see more value in Stack.

[kg_veteran]

The problem I have with Stackhouse is that I don't think he's a good enough starter at SG for this team to win big.

Defensively and on the boards, he is at best the equivalent of Finley. Offensively, he certainly can get to the hole (which Finley can't), but he doesn't create for others and he stops the ball movement. That, combined with his inability to shoot with range, IMO, makes him a worse fit than Finley offensively.

This trade, IMO, gives you a piece you were looking for anyway (backup C) and a piece that might fit better the next couple of seasons at SG.

[dalmations202]

IMO, Stack is a poor man's Paul Pierce.
He gets to the line. He isn't as efficient a jumpshooter, and his D is slightly less than PP, but essentially the same type game.
Just like I consider KVH to be a poor man's Dirk. About the same skillsets, it is just that Dirk is more efficient.

Rose just doesn't do anything for me though. He has the skills to be a Magic Johnson clone, but not the head. I just think you drop major points in basketball IQ when you pick up Rose. Williams, I like as well, but he is no where in the rankings with Fin.

I think Stack could be wonderful, if they change the offense slightly to utilize his skills. If they keep the same offense as last year, you sure have many players with the same skillsets -- Howard, Daniels, Stack, to an extend Van Horn - with none of them dominant at that aspect of the game (ie TMac, Kobe, Artest).

[kg_veteran]

I would agree that Williams is nowhere near an equal talent return for Finley, but what's the alternative? It seems to me that you're assuming that keeping Finley is an option. While technically that might be the case, realistically I don't think it is. If it is, then by all means, I'd rather have Finley.

Re: Stackhouse, I think the gap between him and Pierce is substantial. Offensively, Pierce has the ability to set other people up and is a competent three point shooter. Pierce is a much better rebounder. Pierce is also much better defensively. Rosenbaum has Pierce ranked as the No. 5 defensive small forward, while he has Stackhouse as the No. 51 SG.

What adjustments would you make to the offense to utilize Stackhouse better? To me, he seems to bring the offense to a standstill and doesn't pass the ball, which isn't a good combination.

[MavsFanFinley]

I made a post over there as well, but I'll ask the question here too. I thought Toronto considered waiving Rose? Or were in the beginning when teams believed they could waive and resign those players for a better contract.

Not sure why they'd take on Finley who has a year longer and an extra $18 million.

[dalmations202]

I would agree that Williams is nowhere near an equal talent return for Finley, but what's the alternative? It seems to me that you're assuming that keeping Finley is an option. While technically that might be the case, realistically I don't think it is. If it is, then by all means, I'd rather have Finley.

I think you are correct here, but I hate the idea of not getting anything back for him, and not getting salary cap flexibility either. Any alternative that I could come up with, has a one in a thousand chance of happening, and I won't believe that any deal is done, till it gets done. I would just as soon they keep him, rather than to watch him play for Phoenix, Houston, SA or Minn though.

Re: Stackhouse, I think the gap between him and Pierce is substantial. Offensively, Pierce has the ability to set other people up and is a competent three point shooter. Pierce is a much better rebounder. Pierce is also much better defensively. Rosenbaum has Pierce ranked as the No. 5 defensive small forward, while he has Stackhouse as the No. 51 SG.

Pierce is definately the superior player, no doubt. I don't think the gap is that substantial though. Stack has averaged 20.8ppg for his career while Paul is at 23.6ppg. 43-35% to 41-30% in FG efficiency. Problem is, Stack doesn't do it efficiently. I don't know that Pierce is much better defensively, because so much of defense is determined by how team defense is played. I know that TMac was once considered a horrible defender till JVG, and now he just had to keep Dirk in front of him, or funnel him to the big men, and people call him a great defender. I think that team D, where players switch, and funnel is the way to go, and start making players responsible for pushing on D. This is why I think that, if Avery can implement good team D idealogy, then Dallas can be middle of the pack defensively with the offensive players they currently have.

What adjustments would you make to the offense to utilize Stackhouse better? To me, he seems to bring the offense to a standstill and doesn't pass the ball, which isn't a good combination.

I wouldn't make him the 6th man, and tell him to go in the game shooting because you need his offense.
The offense ran in the playoffs where everything was a 1 on 1 or a failed pick-n-roll was pathetic. The only two players they had that could take the ball to the rim with authority was Stack and Dirk. Since Dirk didn't get the call, and Stack started shooting jumpers, it all looked awful.
Either way, Stack needs to be starting, and the #3-#4 option offensively, because he can beat teams that won't guard him with good defenders, but can hurt the team with his inefficiency if he is too high on the scoring list.

Personally, I would though run more of a high-post passing offense, with Terry and Dirk on the strong side, and Stack/Howard on the offside, Damp (or another Center) playing the high-post. This way you could use backdoor cuts by Howard, and around the horn passing with Stack going to the rack, instead of jump shooting. Dirk would still be strong side #1 scoring option, with Terry coming off picks, setting picks backside, and setting up in the corners for 3's. This would allow Dirk to both penetrate, hit cutters, and shoot the 3 ball. Basically, I would take a page out of Detroit's offense.

Problem is, if Damp can't shoot the 15', then he has to play the Ben Wallace role, and I haven't seen anyone on the team that can play the RIP/Reggie role.
If the Center can shoot the 15' efficiently, then it opens up a whole new set of options... ie Tim Duncan/Pau Gasol/Camby role.

Fin could and would be a great piece in an offense like this as an offside spot-up shooter. Unfortunately I think you are correct, and he is gone.

[Thespiralgoeson]

For anyone who doesn't think there's a substantial gap between Pierce and Stack, consider this: Pierce flat out matches up with T-Mac. Stackhouse... doesn't. Saying the gap between them isn't substantial is like saying the gap between Kevin Garnett and Antoine Walker isn't substantial.

[Lebanese_Fan]

Not to mention stack is much more injury prone!

[snoop]

if you dont get a large cap relief in a fin deal then the only reason to do it is for talent. I like rose but he is just slightly better than fin with a good ankle. I dont think its a good deal.

[Joey]

Nevermind...