This team was considerably better with Butler.

[LonghornDub]

There was a lot of concern around here early in the year about Butler shooting poorly and turning the ball over. Rightly so. Then, those things improved, and everything was gravy.

I think this team needs him. I don't know if it's "the-whole-is-greater-than-its-parts" phenomenon, or what, but this team was sick good the first couple months of the season with Butler. Since then, they've only been good. Not anything to cry about, to be sure, but not the dominating force we saw early. Remember that amazing win in OKC when Dirk went down? That was with Butler. Have the Mavs done anything so downright impressive since then? I don't think so. Not even that win over LA at home to end the losing streak, if you ask me. Nor the win at Boston (although that was certainly fantastic).

The biggest dip, obviously, has been in team defense. I don't think anybody ever regarded Butler as some lock-down defender, but I'm becoming more and more convinced he was a key cog to the way the team defense operated, for whatever reason. It has been somewhere from mediocre to downright bad pretty much ever since he went out.

I don't know if he'll be ready. Probably not. But we need him. I really believe that.

Get well soon, CB4.

[CadBane]

I think it's also important in that Caron keeps people at their natural positions. Without Caron, we have no SF off the bench (since RC hates Brewer, for whatever reason). Also, Caron adds an offensive option down the stretch, which is crucial.

[kg_veteran]

They definitely miss Butler. He started because he was a two-way player, and he gave the Mavs all sorts of versatility that they simply don't have right now. Against the Lakers, you could start Butler instead of Beaubois and there would have been no need to put Kidd on Artest. Against most of the other teams in the West, Butler gave the Mavs an excellent three forward rotation and allowed them to play defense multiple ways. Right now, they are limited because his replacements in the rotation are either very limited offensively or defensively.

I don't think the Mavs solved the problem with Stojakovic or Brewer, but if either has a chance to fill the gap, it's Brewer.

[Underdog]

Yep, you definitely can't argue against our defense being better with Caron.

Although props to the Mavs for still being in the mix without one of our best players - if he hadn't gotten injured, we'd probably be sitting where the Spurs are right now...

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Although props to the Mavs for still being in the mix without one of our best players - if he hadn't gotten injured, we'd probably be sitting where the Spurs are right now...

This gets overlooked a lot now because he's been gone so long we almost forget about him (though not in a disrespectful way). But it's true. The Mavs lost arguably their second-best player and are still contending with the Lakers in the West standings. That's pretty amazing.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

This gets overlooked a lot now because he's been gone so long we almost forget about him (though not in a disrespectful way). But it's true. The Mavs lost arguably their second-best player and are still contending with the Lakers in the West standings. That's pretty amazing.

It's really not arguable at all. He's not even their best SF. They were relatively equal offensively, and Marion is obviously a better defender/rebounder.

Now, Caron was the only other player that could carry an offense when he was playing well, and the Mavs definitely miss that. But the package as a whole was nothing close to their second best player this season.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by jthig32

It's really not arguable at all. He's not even their best SF. They were relatively equal offensively, and Marion is obviously a better defender/rebounder.

Now, Caron was the only other player that could carry an offense when he was playing well, and the Mavs definitely miss that. But the package as a whole was nothing close to their second best player this season.

It is most certainly "arguable" that he's their second-best player. You're having to argue against it right now.

I know you prefer Marion. That's cool. I might agree, I'm not really sure. I definitely prefer him in some respects. But it's definitely arguable.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

It is most certainly "arguable" that he's their second-best player. You're having to argue against it right now.

I know you prefer Marion. That's cool. I might agree, I'm not really sure. I definitely prefer him in some respects. But it's definitely arguable.

Arguable that he's their second best player? Come on dude.

From a pure value/talent standpoint, there is absolutely no argument to be made that Caron was better than Tyson Chandler this year. And I really don't think there's a ton of argument for him being better/more valuable than Marion.

And while he's probably a better overall player at this point of their careers, losing Kidd would have hurt a lot worse.

Caron Butler was never, at any point, the second best player on the Mavericks. And he wasn't even close to the second most important.

[BGMaverick9]

Talked about it last night on MOR, it'd be hella intriguing if Butler says he wants to give it a go if the Mavs make it to the second round.

[xrobx]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Talked about it last night on MOR, it'd be hella intriguing if Butler says he wants to give it a go if the Mavs make it to the second round.

i'm not sure which would be more surprising... butler coming back to play in the second round, or the mavs actually making it to the second round. they both would be a pleasant surprise.

[Thomas86]

I miss Butler...I most people even myself took him for granted and now we see how important he was to the Mavs.

[LSMF]

Man, I miss that guy.

[BGMaverick9]

It was reported at the start of the month that he felt he was at the 50% range. At that time, he said he felt he was about two weeks away from being able to do some additional work on the court. I know he's been shooting on the court before games.

[Rick Carlisle]

They were even better when they had Roy Tarpley.

[JayR]

The team was way better when we still had butler. he was the only player in the starting line up back then that actually attacked the basket and got some hard earned points.

Butler we miss you!!!!!

[MavsFanTillDeath]

yes, we were much better team with butler, no question. but i doubt he'll be available in the playoffs.

we should've traded for sjax imo. players like roddy, terry, barea won't get us anywhere.of all so called "contenders" we have by far the worst defensive backcourt in the entire nba. offensively we're as talented as anybody, but we're so damn small, no one will take us seriously come playoff-time. that's why we get pushed around and disappear once it gets physical. roddy is 165 pounds at most, that's not an nba body. i have to laugh everytime i see him in the starting lineup. we need a big and strong 2 guard who can penetrate to the basket if we want to content for a championship. and btw, rick carlisle is not a championhip-caliber coach. his wild rotations are killing this team. how should the team build any kind of chemistry? in the playoffs, you need a strong 7-player core, like the lakers have. look whos coming off the bench for them, steve blake, shannon brown matt barnes. look whos coming off the bench for the celtics: arroyo, murphy, green. those teams don't care about a deep bench because they know in the playoffs it's not about that. it's about physical play and the mavs are still a soft team, because of their midget backcourt.

think about it, seriously. take off the fan glasses. can you imagine a team winning the championship build the way the mavs are, especially in the backcourt? with roddy, terry and barea leading the way? the more i think about it, the more ridiculous it gets.

[Kante]

The Mavs need him, let´s hope he is back as soon as possible!

[jthig32]

Butler was flat out awful for the first half of his season, and the Mavs were still really good despite his terrible play. So I have a hard to time chalking up a ton of the problems now to not having him. They certainly would be better with him healthy, but markedly so? I don't think so.

I think, more than anything, the league has caught up. The Mavs are a team filled with veteran players, most of whom had already played with each other. It's not uncommon for a team like that to get out of the gates fast and then lose steam as the season wears on.

It really says something about how this team is constructed that we can lose our second best SF, and someone who is probably not one of the four best players on this team, and it's looked at as a major blow. And it's because we're so hard up for true two-way players.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Butler was flat out awful for the first half of his season, and the Mavs were still really good despite his terrible play. So I have a hard to time chalking up a ton of the problems now to not having him. They certainly would be better with him healthy, but markedly so? I don't think so.

I think, more than anything, the league has caught up. The Mavs are a team filled with veteran players, most of whom had already played with each other. It's not uncommon for a team like that to get out of the gates fast and then lose steam as the season wears on.

It really says something about how this team is constructed that we can lose our second best SF, and someone who is probably not one of the four best players on this team, and it's looked at as a major blow. And it's because we're so hard up for true two-way players.

Full on, double rainbow all the way across the sky. Obviously meaning I agree. But it should be a no brainer that not having Butler is a major problem right now. I don't follow how you can state the fact that we need two-way players so badly and in the same post suggest that Caron basically isn't that big (or markedly so) of an issue.

I just don't think we stand a chance without Caron unless we get above average contributions from everyone else NOT named Dirk. Our depth isn't as it was designed without him and that was one thing a lot of us thought would counter NOT having a legit or all-star type 2nd scorer/option. Now that we don't have that guy who can play and contribute above average on both ends while keeping a semi-conventional lineup it's going to be a lot tougher.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I just don't think we stand a chance without Caron unless we get above average contributions from everyone else NOT named Dirk.

I doubt Caron can be a difference-maker this season. If he comes back for the playoffs, he definitely won't be 100% - I don't think a 70% Tuff Juice puts us over the top (hell, he might even hurt us a la Jameer Nelson if he doesn't have time to get re-acclimated into our system...)

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I doubt Caron can be a difference-maker this season. If he comes back for the playoffs, he definitely won't be 100% - I don't think a 70% Tuff Juice puts us over the top (hell, he might even hurt us a la Jameer Nelson if he doesn't have time to get re-acclimated into our system...)

Yup, which is a major reason I don't think we can pull it off .

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Full on, double rainbow all the way across the sky. Obviously meaning I agree. But it should be a no brainer that not having Butler is a major problem right now. I don't follow how you can state the fact that we need two-way players so badly and in the same post suggest that Caron basically isn't that big (or markedly so) of an issue.

I just don't think we stand a chance without Caron unless we get above average contributions from everyone else NOT named Dirk. Our depth isn't as it was designed without him and that was one thing a lot of us thought would counter NOT having a legit or all-star type 2nd scorer/option. Now that we don't have that guy who can play and contribute above average on both ends while keeping a semi-conventional lineup it's going to be a lot tougher.

I just think most in this thread are overstating the loss. He was a terrible player for the first month of the season and somehow we were still good.

It would obviously be better if he were still here, but it's not lke we lost our second best player. We lost a rotation player.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I just think most in this thread are overstating the loss. He was a terrible player for the first month of the season and somehow we were still good.

It would obviously be better if he were still here, but it's not lke we lost our second best player. We lost a rotation player.

You have to think back to the fact that Butler got here at the All-Star break last year, and he finally seemed to be finding his role on the team. His numbers were all trending upward, and by the time he got hurt he was a very important cog indeed.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I just think most in this thread are overstating the loss. He was a terrible player for the first month of the season and somehow we were still good.

It would obviously be better if he were still here, but it's not lke we lost our second best player. We lost a rotation player.

I think there is something to be said for being fresh and having the depth and different options we had early in the season(minus Roddy).

I'm not confident that we have a clear cut 2nd best player. Some nights it's Chandler, some nights it's Marion and other nights it's by far JET. Shows how inconsistent we can be outside of Dirk. I am one in a group that thinks Caron is a solid defender, better and more threatening on offense than Marion so the two are imo really close in that discussion. Especially considering what has been happening in some of the losses we have had. Not just the losses but the matchups issues.

Without Caron we have Kidd trying to guard Artest/other SF's for more time than I would like to see and we try to hide Roddy's size vs other SG's...and all of that create complications on the defensive end. We can be so unconventional with certain matchups at times that it seems like they are more focused and aware of mis-matches that they forget to hustle and work their asses off defensively. Hell last night I thought when Chandler had 5 fouls and Dirk switched on to L.A. he did a great job. There was nothing left to do but work hard and he did.

[jthig32]

Thinking about this a little further, I think another factor that we've missed is Stevenson turning into a non-factor at SG.

For the first two months of the season, we had a SF rotation with two quality players, neither of whom was a poor defender. And we had a starter at SG who was destroying the three point line and playing lock down defense.

Then in January we lost one half of our SF rotation. Then in February we lost that version of Stevenson and replaced him with overall mediocre offensive production and poor defensive production.

That's a bummer of a double-whammy.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Thinking about this a little further, I think another factor that we've missed is Stevenson turning into a non-factor at SG.

For the first two months of the season, we had a SF rotation with two quality players, neither of whom was a poor defender. And we had a starter at SG who was destroying the three point line and playing lock down defense.

Then in January we lost one half of our SF rotation. Then in February we lost that version of Stevenson and replaced him with overall mediocre offensive production and poor defensive production.

That's a bummer of a double-whammy.

Stevenson's departure as a contributor has been offset (IMO) by Beaubois' return. Butler's contributions, however, have not been replaced.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Stevenson's departure as a contributor has been offset (IMO) by Beaubois' return. Butler's contributions, however, have not been replaced.

The drop off from Stevenson to Roddy on the defensive end is pretty drastic.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by jthig32

The drop off from Stevenson to Roddy on the defensive end is pretty drastic.

The drop from Roddy to Stevenson on the other end is much more drastic.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

The drop from Roddy to Stevenson on the other end is much more drastic.

Not so far. Not even close.

Stevenson was scoring a very efficient 8 points a game (roughly) over the first three months of the season, and playing fantastic defense.

Roddy (so far) has been a downgrade from that production, when you consider all factors.

[JeffViggiano]

Originally Posted by jthig32

The drop off from Stevenson to Roddy on the defensive end is pretty drastic.

i think that deshawn could takes his minutes for SG,he is a good player with great defensive skills.terry is our other SG.

then roddy and jj will play only PG.but if jj is that player we have seen in this games he can stay on the bench 48minutes.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by JeffViggiano

i think that deshawn could takes his minutes for SG,he is a good player with great defensive skills.terry is our other SG.

then roddy and jj will play only PG.but if jj is that player we have seen in this games he can stay on the bench 48minutes.

You're misunderstanding my position.

I am in no way calling for Stevenson to get more minutes at SG (or SF).

[mavsfan1000]

Originally Posted by JeffViggiano

i think that deshawn could takes his minutes for SG,he is a good player with great defensive skills.terry is our other SG.

then roddy and jj will play only PG.but if jj is that player we have seen in this games he can stay on the bench 48minutes.

Stevenson sucks. The guy is just horrible on offense. We can't afford to have him out there. We already got lack of playmakers outside Dirk. Kidd feeds off other playmakers abilities with the 3 or the extra pass. But maybe as bad as Stevenson is, he isn't as bad Barea's defense. lol We are better off with as little of Stevenson and Barea as possible. Terry isn't great but he might be our second best scorer sadly. Or until Beaubois can be more consistent. I think we need Marion off the bench for needed energy so we don't fall off so much in the second and fourth quarter.

[Lor20]

barea has sadly come down to earth and played pretty pathetic yesterday.

chandler looks tired out there. Wonder if he is not used playing this many games in a season after all the injuries he has had.

and again we are lacking a hustle player like we had in humphries and bass the last few seasons. all our guys mostly play position defense - they are neither physical nor aggressive enough. if we want a shot at going deep in the playoffs we need to a) crash the defensive board and b) be more aggressive on defense.

[Usually Lurkin]

I'm in the minority, but I think Butler's contributions are overrated. We were doing much better before his injury, but I think we were playing over our heads, and we'd have come back down anyway. On offense, he wasn't attacking as much as any of us wanted. We were doing well because he (along with Jet and Stevenson and Kidd anyone else who was shooting) was hitting his outside jumpers. He was adding some toughness on defense, but our defense was already settling back down to mediocre at best.

If Butler was still playing now, we'd be better than we are, but we'd still not be good enough, and we'd all be clamoring for a real 2nd star.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

I'm in the minority, but I think Butler's contributions are overrated. We were doing much better before his injury, but I think we were playing over our heads, and we'd have come back down anyway. On offense, he wasn't attacking as much as any of us wanted. We were doing well because he (along with Jet and Stevenson and Kidd anyone else who was shooting) was hitting his outside jumpers. He was adding some toughness on defense, but our defense was already settling back down to mediocre at best.

If Butler was still playing now, we'd be better than we are, but we'd still not be good enough, and we'd all be clamoring for a real 2nd star.

The team has needed a 2nd star for a while now. That was true when Butler was healthy. The issue is whether Butler gave the team a better chance to win in the playoffs. I think the answer to that is clearly yes.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

The issue is whether Butler gave the team a better chance to win in the playoffs. I think the answer to that is clearly yes.

eh. We would be better now with him. That's so clearly yes that a thread about it would be useless. The issue is how much better would we be, or, more specifically, can we attribute the "contender" status (long-shot though it may have been) that we had before Butler went down to Butler himself? I don't think so. The team was playing defense over-it's head (Chandler was the savior and goodness, where's he gone?), and the team (Butler especially) was hitting jumpers at a great rate.

The defense was already slipping, and I think even with his tough-juiceness, we wouldn't be a whole lot better than we are now. On the other end, jumpshooting offenses are unreliable. Who knows if we'd be getting into another hot streak by playoff time. Chances are that a jumpshooting hot streak wouldn't last more than a single round of the playoffs anyway.

So, for playoff chances, if Butler was never hurt, I think he'd increase our chances greatly for getting out of the first round, and increase them almost imperceptibly for getting to the conference finals.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

If Butler was still playing now, we'd be better than we are, but we'd still not be good enough, and we'd all be clamoring for a real 2nd star.

I don't think anybody claimed he was a true 2nd star, but he was definitely an important glue guy - especially because he played two ways. Plus, he was another #3-5 player who could step up to be a #2 from time-to-time, just like JET or Marion (which we could really use, seeing as how we don't have that 2nd star...)

[dalger]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

I'm in the minority, but I think Butler's contributions are overrated. We were doing much better before his injury, but I think we were playing over our heads, and we'd have come back down anyway. On offense, he wasn't attacking as much as any of us wanted. We were doing well because he (along with Jet and Stevenson and Kidd anyone else who was shooting) was hitting his outside jumpers. He was adding some toughness on defense, but our defense was already settling back down to mediocre at best.

If Butler was still playing now, we'd be better than we are, but we'd still not be good enough, and we'd all be clamoring for a real 2nd star.

Losing a good player like Butler is something you don't want to happen in a league this talented where the difference between glory and failure is razor thin. Which contending team would still be considered a contender or favorite after losing a player of Caron's caliber? What about the Lakers without Bynum? What about the Spurs without Parker? Boston without Allen? Orlando without Richardson? Chicago without Noah? All of those teams would suffer a great deal if that kind of an injury were to happen to one of their crucial players. The Celtics still think that a more flexible ACL in Kendrick Perkins' knee would have won them a championship last season.

What makes Caron's injury worse is that we don't have someone to fill his role. Right now, it looks like Cardinal and Stevenson are the guys who are supposed to play most of Butler's minutes. The difference between Caron and either Stevenson or Cardinal at the 3 is massive.

When Dirk was on the bench, we were still able to play Jet AND Butler to deliver offensively and make up for not having Dirk on the court. Right now, when Dirk's on the bench, we only have Jet or Roddy as scorers. Marion and Chandler can score as well, yet creating offense is hardly their biggest strength. So there's a trickle-down effect in many ways. On the one hand, our forward rotation is no longer as good as it used to be with Caron. On the other hand, guys like Jet and Roddy have to do more than they were expected and supposed to do prior to Butler's injury.

Something that's worth noticing is that we weren't so good in November/December because everyone was rolling, as suggested in the quoted posting. JJB was horrible late last year, Kidd's 3-pointer would hardly fall at all and Jet was in a terrible slump.

I don't know whether or not Caron's injury is THE difference, and who's to say we would be better than the Lakers or Spurs even with him? That said, we were really good back then, beat a lot of very good teams in impressive fashion and our rotation was working like a charm.

[Kidd Karma]

I think Caron's been a great measuring stick in adding core players mid stream. We added Caron mid stream a year ago, the results weren't great, but with a full training camp, not just getting Caron into RC's system, but seeing that the core develops chemistry going forward, with Caron going down, now where does his minutes get replaced? We've tried Deshawn, Peja, Sasha, now Marion. I think the best thing at this point, is hoping that we can start Marion, then piece together a solid rotation or 4 players behind the starters. I don't know if even Caron coming back at the top of the playoffs would help, can that chemistry be picked up just like that, hopefully we can see him back before then, he was a big part to our fast start.

[Underdog]

I prefer Butler and Marion to Butler or Marion.

(I also prefer to state the obvious...)