Nellie on with Norm

[Murphy3]

Nellie's ripping into Joey Crawford.

He said that he was thrown out intentionally last night.

Said that he knew that the Mavs wouldn't get a call from Crawford if Nellie was on the sidelines.

...that Crawford makes him look forward to retirement.

...said he'd rather not coach another game that Crawford is a part of.

...brought up the ejection in the playoffs when he was ejected by Crawford without saying a word.

He also mentioned that the Mavs aren't in the class of the Spurs and Suns right now. He said that he's not sure what his team is just yet, and that he won't know until he gets everyone back healthy. But, he hopes that they can get to that level and believes that they can.

[Murphy3]

Once again, he's hoping for Fin and Daniels on Thursday.

[Chicago JK]

Thanks. I forgot Crawford was the guy that threw Nellie out in the playoffs for not going back to the bench. What an idiot.

The Mavs are in the same league as the Suns...despite the records. Right now it is the Spurs and everyone else (Pho, Minny, Sac, Dallas are all in the next group)

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: Chicago JK
Thanks. I forgot Crawford was the guy that threw Nellie out in the playoffs for not going back to the bench. What an idiot.

The Mavs are in the same league as the Suns...despite the records. Right now it is the Spurs and everyone else (Pho, Minny, Sac, Dallas are all in the next group)

The Suns are one of the best teams in the league. I can't say that about the Mavs right now. Suns won't be the best team in the league all season long but give them their due. The Suns and Sonics are playing some great ball right now. The things those two teams have in common is that they didn't go out and lose anyone significant via free agency. Alot of their core from previous seasons are still there so it's gonna take them less time to gel.

[Bookit]

Originally posted by: Murphy3
Nellie's ripping into Joey Crawford.

He said that he was thrown out intentionally last night.

Said that he knew that the Mavs wouldn't get a call from Crawford if Nellie was on the sidelines.

...that Crawford makes him look forward to retirement.

...said he'd rather not coach another game that Crawford is a part of.

...brought up the ejection in the playoffs when he was ejected by Crawford without saying a word.

He also mentioned that the Mavs aren't in the class of the Spurs and Suns right now. He said that he's not sure what his team is just yet, and that he won't know until he gets everyone back healthy. But, he hopes that they can get to that level and believes that they can.

Very interesting. What was Nellie's tone when making those comments about Crawford. Did it sound like he was joking or completely serious?

[Poindexter Einstein]

From what I have seen, the Spurs and the Pistons appear to be the strongest teams. The Suns are a half-rung below. The Mavs and a whole bunch of teams fit right below that, at this point. I would put the Sonics here, in spite of their gaudy record. We will see for sure this week.

For all the injuries and changes they have dealt with, being at such a level isnt a bad place to be. The key issues in Dallas will be whether the team improves (and heals) as the season goes along, and also how high Dirk's level of play goes.

[jibikao]

Is Crawford really that bad? I've heard that Nelson wanted to get thrown out but I didn't know it's the "truth". So why would Crawford give more good calls to Mavs when Nelson is out? He just hates Nelson personally or Mavs as a whole? Man, that tells you how professional those refs are. They shoudn't throw in their personal matters in the game. They can hate Nelson but once in the game, everything has to be fair.

NBA refs should be ashamed that Nelson has to ask for a ejection in order to get fair calls. WTF.

Jimmy

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: Bookit

Very interesting. What was Nellie's tone when making those comments about Crawford. Did it sound like he was joking or completely serious?

No, he wasn't joking at all.

[EricaLubarsky]

with all the enemies that Nellie has made around the league, it might be a boon to this team to have him retire, independent of any arguments against Nellie as a coach. The NBA won't clean up its act, so maybe we have to work with the NBA.

[u2sarajevo]

Originally posted by: jibikao
Is Crawford really that bad? I've heard that Nelson wanted to get thrown out but I didn't know it's the "truth". So why would Crawford give more good calls to Mavs when Nelson is out? He just hates Nelson personally or Mavs as a whole? Man, that tells you how professional those refs are. They shoudn't throw in their personal matters in the game. They can hate Nelson but once in the game, everything has to be fair.

NBA refs should be ashamed that Nelson has to ask for a ejection in order to get fair calls. WTF.

Jimmy

Joey Crawford is a complete and total jack-you-know-what.... Nellie got thrown out of a playoff game two years ago for little more than looking at him the wrong way. I don't know what the origin of the feud is, but during that playoff game Del Harris got thrown out also.... I think Del was trying to make Crawfords bias against us obvious.

I wonder if Crawford's gripe is with Cuban and not Nellie.... that is what I always thought.

[MavKikiNYC]

If I remember correctly, there was an account of Crawford's being called on the David Stern-carpet following the Nellie-playoff game ejection, and he (Crawford) was quoted by an anonymous colleague as fearing for his career. So the league clearly is aware of and sees the potential for Crawford and Nellie's love spat to damage the credibility of the game.

IMO, Crawford sucks as an official--I don't care how lovingly Doug Collins and the TNT common-'taters kiss his a$$, and praise his knowledge of the game.

But doesn't Nelson have to be a little smarter about this? Why give up a couple of points on technical foul shots, in what his likely to be a close, hard-fought game, to a prime conference rival? Shouldn't Nelson just sit the whole game out? Retire to the stands? Just retire period? Keep his big slobbering-drunk mouth shut and not hurt his team?

Very, very questionable and foolish tactic by Nelson, if in fact it was a tactic. I just don't think he has any self-control, or enough self-discipline to coach through a tough game. It's the equivalent of quitting on his team. What kind of message does that ultimately send?

Maybe the mental makeup of this team is different, but I'd much sooner see Nelson coach through a tough game than make such a trashy exit. Or at least if he's going to quit, quit for good.

[Poindexter Einstein]

Hmmm Nellie's ploy worked. The Mavs got a somewhat evenly officiated game, and the Mavs won. Before we go blasting Nellie for messing up, shouldnt we at least notice that he hoodwinked everyone (including some of you) in moving the focus away long enough to get a win? Heck, this was a win IN MINNESOTA.

Cant see the forest for the trees, in the haste to criticize.

[TheBenger]

Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC
If I remember correctly, there was an account of Crawford's being called on the David Stern-carpet following the Nellie-playoff game ejection, and he (Crawford) was quoted by an anonymous colleague as fearing for his career. So the league clearly is aware of and sees the potential for Crawford and Nellie's love spat to damage the credibility of the game.

IMO, Crawford sucks as an official--I don't care how lovingly Doug Collins and the TNT common-'taters kiss his a$$, and praise his knowledge of the game.

But doesn't Nelson have to be a little smarter about this? Why give up a couple of points on technical foul shots, in what his likely to be a close, hard-fought game, to a prime conference rival? Shouldn't Nelson just sit the whole game out? Retire to the stands? Just retire period? Keep his big slobbering-drunk mouth shut and not hurt his team?

Very, very questionable and foolish tactic by Nelson, if in fact it was a tactic. I just don't think he has any self-control, or enough self-discipline to coach through a tough game. It's the equivalent of quitting on his team. What kind of message does that ultimately send?

Maybe the mental makeup of this team is different, but I'd much sooner see Nelson coach through a tough game than make such a trashy exit. Or at least if he's going to quit, quit for good.

This is the most idiotic post I have ever read on any message board.

[EricaLubarsky]

wow it was Benger who said in another post, " I am just frustrated with seeming decline of quality posts and the decline of quality threads here lately"

its amazing how someone that said that can make a comment like the above. I'm more concerned about posters like you continuing to berate respected posters that have said something than mods making “Fluff threads” and "silly posts"

[Bookit]

Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC
Shouldn't Nelson just sit the whole game out? Retire to the stands? Just retire period? Keep his big slobbering-drunk mouth shut and not hurt his team?

Very, very questionable and foolish tactic by Nelson, if in fact it was a tactic. I just don't think he has any self-control, or enough self-discipline to coach through a tough game. It's the equivalent of quitting on his team. What kind of message does that ultimately send?

This is a little harse. You might not agree with Nellie's philosophy but he isn't stupid.

[MavKikiNYC]

Originally posted by: TheBenger

This is the most idiotic post I have ever read on any message board.

May your next 36 posts be as revelatory. .....for both of us.

[MavKikiNYC]

Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
Hmmm Nellie's ploy worked. The Mavs got a somewhat evenly officiated game, and the Mavs won. Before we go blasting Nellie for messing up, shouldnt we at least notice that he hoodwinked everyone (including some of you) in moving the focus away long enough to get a win? Heck, this was a win IN MINNESOTA.

Cant see the forest for the trees, in the haste to criticize.

PE, assuming that it was a deliberate tactic, as Fat Nellie tried to contend post facto, it was at best a one-shot deal.

Will he walk out every time Crawford shows up? I certainly don't think so.

Will he walk out every time an official with whom he's had a problem shows up? I don't think so.

There was a time when I defended Nelson, and I've been willing to give him some slack this year. But foolishly quitting on his team is intolderable in my book. And it's not like this is the first time either. His act is wearing thinner, ever thinner.

I see both the forest through the trees, and the skies through Nellie's lies. And I don't see any sun shining on his championship chances.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: TheBenger

This is the most idiotic post I have ever read on any message board.

If you can't add content to the discussion, please refrain from adding anything at else. If you think that someone's post lacks intellectual merit, please give detailed examples as to why it's wrong. But don't just call it idiotic because that adds nothing.

BTW I think that Kiki makes some very good points. Why give the other team 2 free points, when he could have just removed himself from the game without having the other team awarded the tech shots? It seems that someone who disagreed with it would be able to articulate some valied reason why giving up 2 points was necessary. Well here's my take on what Nellie was thinking. By getting ejected, it would put Crawford on notice that the NBA officials would be watching this game and it's calls more closely than if Nellie wasn't ejected. Is that worth 2 points in a tough game against a conference rival? Seems to me that is a very subjective answer. Personally I would rather have just seen Nellie walk off the court without the techs.

[SeriousSummer]

I'd have taken 13-7 over the first twenty games this year with no questions asked. If you'd told me the team was without Finley for two thirds of the games, that Quis and Terry would be playing hurt and that Dirk would have had an ankle sprain, then I'd have taken 10-10.

Look over Dallas's opponents for the next 8 or 10 games after Seattle. A 20-10 start is easily within reach, on line for a 55 win season.

That'd be great with so many new players. Nellie's running things just fine.

[Simon2]

Does Crawford do this to other teams or other coaches? Maybe he's just an all-around a-hole? Anyway, I like it that Nellie got tossed. AJ gets more coaching experience. Damp got a lot more minutes. It also had a subliminal effect that maybe the Mavs won't get Crawford during the playoffs

[LRB]

Does Crawford do this to other teams or other coaches?

Most of the long time refs, and Crapford is no exception, have several teams, players, and/or coaches that they have beefs with. Joey show reverse favortism a lot more than most refs IMO. It's a joke that Crapford hasn't been fired. Just goes to show you that Stern and company aren't serious about the integrity of the game.

[Simon2]

Originally posted by: LRB

Most of the long time refs, and Crapford is no exception, have several teams, players, and/or coaches that they have beefs with. Joey show reverse favortism a lot more than most refs IMO. It's a joke that Crapford hasn't been fired. Just goes to show you that Stern and company aren't serious about the integrity of the game.

Can you name other refs that do this?

[chumdawg]

Let's not get so worked up over two first-quarter free throws. I mean, really.

You would think that this is some brand-new tactic that Nellie just dreamed up. Coaches have been getting themselves tossed for one reason or another for quite some time now, have they not? I'm sure sometimes it fails and sometimes it works. I'm with PE on this one. It seems to have worked in this case, and that's about all that needs to be said.

Will Nellie do it again? He just might. And it might work then, too.

I think that Nellie, much like John Kerry, may just be too 'nuanced' for some of the people who post here...

[Poindexter Einstein]

Other refs with perceived biases: Steve Javie supposedly has an anti-Laker bias, according to Laker fans. (For an anti-Laker, Javie merely refuses to give them one-sided favoritism like the rest of the refs do, but thats an issue for another day.) There are definitely other coach/ref feuds, but I havent done the research yet. Maybe I should.

[bloodyhell]

Crawford is the biggest butt munch of all time. The guys face just screams UGLY.

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: chumdawg
Let's not get so worked up over two first-quarter free throws. I mean, really.

You would think that this is some brand-new tactic that Nellie just dreamed up. Coaches have been getting themselves tossed for one reason or another for quite some time now, have they not? I'm sure sometimes it fails and sometimes it works. I'm with PE on this one. It seems to have worked in this case, and that's about all that needs to be said.

Will Nellie do it again? He just might. And it might work then, too.

I think that Nellie, much like John Kerry, may just be too 'nuanced' for some of the people who post here...

You may be right, especially with the cut and run part. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[rakesh.s]

steve javie and joe crawford are TERRIBLE

[WildArkieBoy]

I think Avery already had his clipboard ready.

This was the best EFFORT game of the year.

Y'all underestimate the psychological strings Nellie pulls.

BTW, a cooler of Bud Light decorated the locker room.

WAB

[GP]

Crawford is far and away the worst Ref in the NBA. I was thinking that maybe he got some bad news from the health clinic and found out that his latex blow-up doll was cheating on him.

[JLEEHASMUCHGAME]

Originally posted by: rakesh.s
steve javie and joe crawford are TERRIBLE

ahhh steve javie.....definitely, WAY up there on my list of most hated refs.

[seelenjaeger]

There´s a big difference if you give up 2 points that early or in the 4th. I might join Kikis argument if he´d get thrown out late with the game on the edge, but 2 Free Throws that early are close to meaningless and can EASILY be overcome when you get a shot at an evenly officiated game for it in exchange.

Don´t forget that KG almost fouled out.

[MavKikiNYC]

The two-point penalty is significant, but secondary to the fact that he left his team on the floor for 47 minutes. Poor example, poor leadership. Imagine the respone if Mantis or Stackhouse or Fin had done the same thing.

[Usually Lurkin]

Actually, the Mantis in particular has had a huge impact on more than a few games by stepping in a throwing down some quick fouls. Sometimes establishing a better attitude is worth a couple of freebies for the other team.

[MavKikiNYC]

Originally posted by: Usually Lurkin
Actually, the Mantis in particular has had a huge impact on more than a few games by stepping in a throwing down some quick fouls. Sometimes establishing a better attitude is worth a couple of freebies for the other team.

But by actions, not by absence; by assertiveness, not with a cop-out.

And for whoever compared Nellie's nuanced coaching to Kerry's nuanced policy, you'd do well to remember the end result--losing.

[Poindexter Einstein]

Ummm Nellie won. So apparently Nellie's nuances are effective, arent they?

It's a long season. The Mavs won. They won easily. They won on the road, against a top 5 team, with the worst choice of refs they could draw. Apparently Nellie is smarter than you are, cause while you are complaining about the "what if his ploy hadnt worked," the facts say you are quibbling over something that worked perfectly, for whatever reason.

Silly silly.

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
Ummm Nellie won. So apparently Nellie's nuances are effective, arent they?

It's a long season. The Mavs won. They won easily. They won on the road, against a top 5 team, with the worst choice of refs they could draw. Apparently Nellie is smarter than you are, cause while you are complaining about the "what if his ploy hadnt worked," the facts say you are quibbling over something that worked perfectly, for whatever reason.

Silly silly.

Let me get this straight.

You're saying that Nelson made the right move by getting himself thrown out of a game on purpose, AND you're saying that they don't win the game unless he does?

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
Ummm Nellie won. So apparently Nellie's nuances are effective, arent they?

It's a long season. The Mavs won. They won easily. They won on the road, against a top 5 team, with the worst choice of refs they could draw. Apparently Nellie is smarter than you are, cause while you are complaining about the "what if his ploy hadnt worked," the facts say you are quibbling over something that worked perfectly, for whatever reason.

Silly silly.

So are you implying that his nuances are always effective? If not, if someone disagree with a 'nuance' does not work, does that make that someone smarter than Nellie?

I can agree that it did not hurt the team this time. And yes, there is the possibility that it did work. There's also the possibility that either coach could have led the team to victory. But you make it sound as if his nuances cannot be questioned.

So, what if Phil Jackson were to come out and say that giving up points like that isn't an intelligent thing to do in his opinion? Would Jackson be less intelligent than Nellie because taking the T's didn't cost the Mavs the game against the Wolves? Didn't Jackson come out recently and say that he didn't believe in giving up points in that manner? So, is Jackson allowed to question that type of logic but not Mavskiki?

[V2M]

Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
Ummm Nellie won. So apparently Nellie's nuances are effective, arent they?

It's a long season. The Mavs won. They won easily. They won on the road, against a top 5 team, with the worst choice of refs they could draw. Apparently Nellie is smarter than you are, cause while you are complaining about the "what if his ploy hadnt worked," the facts say you are quibbling over something that worked perfectly, for whatever reason.

Silly silly.

With all due respect, PE, I don't see how we could give any credit to Nellie for that win. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]

[Poindexter Einstein]

My point is that he is being sniped at (by the usual suspects, of course - aka, those who will ALWAYS try to find fault with anything he does) - and it was after an impressive win. If you Greek chorus guys would read the immediate post I replied to, you would see that Nellies "nuances" were being compared to Kerry's as losing nuances - when the context was a huge win, not a loss, for Nellie.

I cant prove he did it on purpose or that it helped. But you cant prove it did NOT help. It is unprovable. BUT - the end result is known.

So the point being made here was somehow that "wow, such moves hurt your team" - and guess what, I can show you this example right here vs Minny that says "no it looks more like they don't." And in this case, there is no question - they did NOT get a loss, but rather got a win (which was a better result than expected).

[MavKikiNYC]

I'd say the 'usual suspects' have, by and large, given Nellie a LOT of leeway so far this year, and before his spasm against the T'Wolves I had actually considered that Nelson had done an above average job this year of NOT complaining to officials or about officials, and that of the half dozen-or-so Mavs games I'd seen this year, the attitude seemed to be extending to the team generally.

But I don't think that one regular-season win agains the T'Wolves is The Win that people are looking for. And like many observers, I can recall similar Nellie stunts in years past that seemed to hurt the team's concentration.

So my unprovable guess is that Nellie's ejection did nothing to actively help the Mavericks win. But if his absence helped, then I fully support more Nellie absences.