Flop rules

[chumdawg]

Not at all happy about quotes from Dirk and Cuban about the new flop rules. First Dirk:

"I never looked at myself as a big flopper," Nowitzki told the Dallas Morning News while the Mavericks are practicing in Germany. "If you play me physical then, obviously, I've got to sell the call and get to the (free throw) line. That's just part of the game. We'll have to see how they enforce that.

Wow. Isn't selling the call the same thing that flopping is? Certainly doesn't come across as very tough. Tough would be "If you play me physical then, obviously, I'm going to play you physical right back."

Now Cuban:

"The one thing the NBA should do, but of course it won't, is to make it so an offensive foul is NOT called if a guy falls on his butt," Cuban wrote in his email. "The biomechanics of force and resistance don't cause you to fall flat on your butt on contact, unless the defender intends to fall on his butt upon contact.

Oh, thank God. We would have never known the "biomechanics" of this kind of thing if not for Mark Cuban. Here's the deal, Cuban... If you set your feet and make sure to keep them set no matter what...then what else is going to move backward? It's move your feet or your ass, you pick. What a genius.

http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story/...-flopping-rule

[tron#1]

its going to be interesting

[Dirkadirkastan]

I'm happy with neither the quotes nor the rules.

It's not that hard to detect a flop during a live play; I don't know why the refs have such a hard time with it. If they didn't fall for the antics, there wouldn't be a problem. Fining the players is a shift in responsibility.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

I'm happy with neither the quotes nor the rules.

It's not that hard to detect a flop during a live play; I don't know why the refs have such a hard time with it. If they didn't fall for the antics, there wouldn't be a problem. Fining the players is a shift in responsibility.

I think Cuban is very much on the right track with one thing...I read somewhere that he is working on using video tracking technology to measure the time of responses by defenders. That makes all the sense in the world. It would take a very clever artist, at the top of his craft, to time phantom contact just perfectly (in which case we should give him the call if for no reason other than he is that good at what he does).

I think it's a little tricky, though, to put it all in the hands of the referees. Somewhat reminiscent of the Green Bay/Seattle game, I think we have to always recognize that it's a world of difference in real time as opposed to in slo-mo replay.

I actually love--and think it's genius--the idea of announcing flops by the league, the next day. Call it in a game and only so many people will notice. Announce it the next day and everyone hears about it. You embarrass enough guys, and they will stop doing it.

What I really don't get is this...flopping is something we have all complained about, for a long time...why would Dirk and Cuban be questioning an effort to curtail it?

[Dirkadirkastan]

True, you can't catch ALL flops live, but I think the refs could do a much better job than they have. Unfortunately, the safety net the league now offers provides them little incentive, if not negative incentive, to do their best to get the call right the first time.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

True, you can't catch ALL flops live, but I think the refs could do a much better job than they have. Unfortunately, the safety net the league now offers them provides little incentive, if not negative incentive, to do their best to get the call right the first time.

That's an interesting suggestion, about the disincentive. Maybe they could mitigate it by making a press release each day of the in-game-called flops from the night before. I'm staunchly in support of embarrassment as the best form of enforcement.

As for in-game...I'm not sure I want to see the refs looking to blow a lot of whistles. I could see the pendulum swinging too far in the opposite direction. But...the swallowing of the whistle is something I could get squarely behind. Let enough guys get on their ass without a call, and thus get out of the play, and they might think twice about doing it again. Particularly since they will look so foolish on ESPN that night.

[Bayliss]

I don't necessarily like that Dirk said what he did. However, exaggerating contact on offense is not nearly as bad as flopping without being touched. And I think the league will fine the guys who flop without being touched:

[adonis]

The Mavs don't flop anyways?

[LonghornDub]

Remember that, when it comes to punishment, there's usually several justifications for the rule. You've got your specific deterrence (deterring that specific player from doing it again in the future, which entails chum's idea of "embarrassment"), your general deterrence (deterring league-wide, even among those who have never been penalized yet), and also just sweet, sweet societal retribution against those who violate the rules.

I think anti-flopping rules, properly implemented, can serve all three of these goals to some extent. I was disappointed to see Dirk's comments. But I do worry about enforceability.

[dude1394]

I think this rule is idiotic. UNLESS they call offensive fouls when guys bang into defenders. If someone is dislodged from position then that's an offensive foul, one of the main reasons folks flop is because the offensive guy is allowed excessive contact.

Now the perimeter flops are just ridiculous and I'm okay with then being reviewed. But watching a post player move his defender 9 feet is ridiculous.

[hutch41]

I hate the flopping that we see used excessively like the manu's and harden types but I think it should be the refs that referee themselves on allowing such calls.

One thought on this however rather than fines perhaps there should be an in game review "ref" that recognizes a flop with replay and simply charges 1 technical to the player. the tech would have to be within x amount of time so there is not a pile of the in the final 2 minutes. Maybe 5 tech=penalty minutes in a future game Ala hockey style

I dunno i guess there is no perfect solution.

[nowhereman]

Remember in 2010, in every game, when Mcdyess mugged regularly without a call?

If Dirk tries to sell that as a foul, after an obvious foul, and gets fined, I'm going to flip my sh*t.

[Lor20]

agreed.... if it is a foul you should be allowed to sell it. i think the time it needs to be fined is if a foul is called because the guy sold non-contact. and i really wish it wasnt a defensive foul if the attacker initiates the contact (e.g. durants rip through. drives me nuts.)

[Big Boy Laroux]

I realize it's very subjective and that causes an issue for some. But if this gets rid of even HALF of the ridiculous flops highlighted in Bayliss' post, i'm ok with it.

it's the soccer-style flops that need to be eliminated - acting like you got shot.

i would like to see how they enforce it, and if the game suffers (a la opens up the game even more by preventing a defensive player from stepping in on a driver) - before i criticize it.

i always forget the NBA rule... but in high school and college, a blatant flop is supposed to be a technical foul.

Also, there is a difference between flailing your arms trying to sell a call, and throwing yourself to the ground.

[The Ghost of Championship]

I've never seen Dirk as a flopper, EVER. Not even in his Euro adjustment years.

[nowhereman]

This video reminds me, in part, why I hate the Jazz and Spurs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKh8Zq6zhRc

[Spurred1]

Don't see anything surprising about Dirk's comments. Anyone who has been in the NBA or watches it on a regular basis knows who blatantly flops(Bosh,Harden,Manu,Parker) and who will exaggerate to get a call. There is a difference-Wade throwing himself to the ground and cradling his eye while pointing to Dirk in the 2011 Finals comes to mind was an embarrassing flop to watch. Blake Griffin is turning into a diva flopper as well.
Then there are the players who get fouled, but lurch back or snap the head back to enhance the foul. They've been fouled, but they really want to make sure they get the call. I would guess Cuban and Dirk don't like the acting flops where a big guy falls down at the brush of the opponent's fingertip but would like to keep the head snap/little lurching exaggeration calls-Dirk is good at getting those calls. Why do you think he gets so many points at the line?
Even if Dirk had said he'd play physical right back, most people would know he's bullshitting. He's not a physical player..which is why I was surprised to see his reaction to Kendrick Perkins in the 2012 playoffs.

[Five-ofan]

Just so we are clear, you guys do know that just about every non mavs fan thinks dirk is a flopper right? I don't agree with it but a lot of people will be expecting him to be hurt by this.

I think the problem is going to be how they enforce this. Are they really going to call the lebrons and wades of the world for this or are they going to call the deshawn stevensons for floppig to draw charges.

If its just or even mostly about the charges it would be much much simpler to simply eliminate off ball defenders from being able to take charges, which should be a rule anyway.

[sefant77]

Of course the league picked a bench player and a scrub for their first warning. Why not Wade, Paul, Harden or Griffin? They all had allready awesome flops

Well....who didnt see this coming...

http://www.nba.com/official/

[92bDad]

Why don't they adopt concepts from other leagues and sports?

Each coach has 2 challenges per half...where they can challenge a call that they believe is the result of a flop by the other team. If it is, then the coach can keep his challenge and the other team is assessed with the foul.

The second part, when assessed with a foul for flopping, the player receives a "Yellow" Card...if they get called again, that would result in 2 yellow cards which becomes a red card and an automatic ejection from the game, followed by a 2 game suspension.

None of these players care about getting fined...but start impacting the results of games and impacting their teams...then you will find players being influenced to simply play basketball.

One more thing...send the challenge to be reviewed by a replay official located at NBA Head Quarters...away from fans, teams and the live action. They watch the complete replay, render their ruling and the officials on the court have no say in what is being handed down.

Let's give this new found interest in "Flopping" some meat and create real change for the game ;-)

[fluid.forty.one]

To be fair.. Barea is a huge flopper.

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

To be fair.. Barea is a huge flopper.

To be fair, Barea gets forearm pushed by the entire league...if he doesnt flop he gets destroyed

Thats the difference between a Barea flop and the same Wade/James flop

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Of course the league picked a bench player and a scrub for their first warning. Why not Wade, Paul, Harden or Griffin? They all had allready awesome flops

Well....who didnt see this coming...

http://www.nba.com/official/

Fightin' Texas Aggie Donald Sloan is hardly a scrub.

(Yes, he is.)

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by sefant77

To be fair, Barea gets forearm pushed by the entire league...if he doesnt flop he gets destroyed

Thats the difference between a Barea flop and the same Wade/James flop

He puts his kneck right under the guys chin, what does he expect? He wants the forearm.

[Big Boy Laroux]

Does anyone else find it hilarious that the official videos to support the warnings have ads that run prior to being able to see the play in question?

Flop rule enforcement! Another money maker for the NBA!