Nellie's development of youth - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

grbh · 02-15-2002, 03:07 PM

I love Nelson, but I am confused as to the reinforcement he sends to some of the young guys on this team. Time and time again good play has resulted in a benching. I think this hurts young players' confidence and their development. It seems everytime a player shows us something on the court they are rewarded with a string of DNPs. Examples:

Early this year Najera in one half
9 Pts
10 Reb
1 St
2 Bl
He received 2 Minutes in the next game and then a string of 8 DNPs. Eventually he pushed his way into the rotation, but this is not the only case.

Harvey showed us flashes early in the year with a couple of nice games. He can't even get garbage time right now

EE: In 4 of his last six games played more than 10 Minutes. I believe he started those games. In them he averaged:
17.5 Min
4 ponts
7.5 Rebounds
EE was then injured sent to the IR, and has not been heard from again

Wang's first game with the Mavs:
13 Min
9 Pts
4 Reb

Next 6 games
2 Min, DNP, 4 Min, DNP, 4 Min, 1 Min

What does this do to the fragile egos of these kids. They work their tail off get some minutes, play well, and all this earns them are DNPs, or maybe garbage minutes. I understand goal number 1 is to win games, but we are not the team to beat in the playoffs. To contend for a championship this team needs to improve. This teams secondary goal needs to be developing players as quickly as possible. Some consistent minutes for these guys would help. Nelson has been doing a better job of it lately with Wang and Najera, but if he really wants to develop these players, send Manning, and Bradley to the IR. What is the worst that can happen, EE turns out to be a stinker, and Harvey is overrated. If that is the case return to the original 12 beofre the playoffs.
This team needs to do everything they can to get better before the playoffs. That may involve some tinkering. Even if it only makes the team a hair better it is worth it. If the team does not improve then go back to the drawing board.

threadkilla · 02-15-2002, 06:24 PM

I have been saying that about Nellie for two years. He is great at alot of things. Developing young players is a major weakness. The only young players that have developed since landing in Dallas are Dirk and..... no one comes to mind. Of all the players he has drafted, only one turned out as advertised. I emailed Mark Cuban about this not long after he bought the team. He gave me some canned response. That is why Nellie prefers veterans. He doesn't handle young players well.

LandoCaly · 02-15-2002, 08:26 PM

You guys have a selective memory:

Dirk was a STARTER his rookie year. He was in NBA-shock so Nellie benched him.

Najera was a STARTER his rookie year. How many 2nd round picks can say that? He digressed some at the start of this year due to injuries and having to re-adjust to the team. Now Nellie gives him a lot of Howard's minutes. It's also worked in motivating Howard.

Wang was force-fed minutes last year, but I'll admit this was probably more to please China than anything else. This year Wang has earned time on the floor.

Harvey was given some minutes, but he's an offensive liability, was beaten out by Najera, and had a real injury. He hasn't earned his minutes because he's still learning to shoot (free-throws!)

Courtney Alexander was given minutes, but he sucked so bad that Nellie had to bench him. Doug Collins and MJ aren't giving him many minutes either. I guess they're not developing rookies in Washington.

Eschmeyer had to learn the system here before earning his minutes.

Look at Nellie's past: Hardaway, Mullins, Richmond, Gatling, Marculonis, Webber, etc. etc. I think that all these guys were rookies too. They could all ball. Minutes were earned.

Nellie will play rookies, but you gotta be able to play ball. Otherwise, he does what I think is better than sticking young players out there. He makes them EARN their minutes. It's better for them and for the team.

Rhylan · 02-15-2002, 08:49 PM

Lest we forget Billy Owens was a rookie when Nellie made the famous Richmond for Owens trade.

Joe Joe · 02-15-2002, 10:01 PM

I know this may not sound right to some but IMO Nellie does not know how to handle young Black players. I don't think Dirk or Najera did anything differently from any of the other guys Nellie stiffed on minutes, especially Dirk. Najera did work hard when given the minutes last year, but those other guys did too IMO. I think Nellie had to force minutes to the International players just so his plan didn't backfire on him. He did not want to take the lashing people was going to give him if his plan had failed just as a lot of the others had. The only plan that has gone his was was Dirk to a certain degree, CA wasn't given minutes like Dirk was in his rookie year. Dirk was definitely not going to be traded like CA had to go through. Here's some guys Nellie didn't handle to well as young guys coming into the league:

Leon Smith first and foremost, Nellie handled this very terribly. I blame him and the Mavs for all the trouble this young guy got into. He was only 18 yrs old coming to a new city, yet they let him go around alone knowing how buumpy his past had been. I put 100% of the blame on Nellie and the Mavs'. They couldv'e definitely have handled that situation a lot better. I see this young guy turning into a pretty good player very soon.

Chris Webber and there's no need for a description on this 1, he totally handled Webber wrong. Now he's 1 of the better players in the league.

Courtney Alexander will turn out to a great player, once he develops. He was quickly traded by Nellie and the Mavs instead of letting him develop here with the Mavs. Nellie never really gave him an fair shot, and he really did lack confidence. He went through an period where he had started to feel really down on himself, and began to even spend less and less time with his son. At times he never knew where he would end up, and how his future would turn out. Nellie handled that 1 wrong once again.

Samaki Walker, yes some might say he was given chance after chance but I don't think so. Nellie continued the play him here, and not play him there. You cannot handle young players like that these days, that takes alot of their confidence away. You never want a young guy lacking in confidence. He didn't really get the chance to contribute to the Spurs but he is really having a great year with the Lakers. He will more than likely get a ring, and he will contribute to it. He is the starter on the World Champion Lakers now. Nellie once again handled this 1 wrong.

Donnell Harvey, I disagree with you completely on this 1 Lando. Harvey has not ben given the minutes Najera has been given. He has worked just as hard, and some of the ball games where he did get to play he showed me more than Najera. I am not saying he is a better fit for this team, I am saying that he could atleast contribute to this team in the defense and rebounding areas. He is a better rebounder and defender than Najera if he was just given the minutes to contribute. Neither of them are really good scorers so I see them just about same in that category.

Those are just some of the younger guys he handled wrong IMO, I am sure if I think a little more I could come up with more. What did Dirk really do to earn minutes his rookie year besides being a lottery pick(I think) that Nellie couldn't let backfire on him when he left Paul Pierce on the board.

Murphy3 · 02-15-2002, 10:29 PM

hmm..that's kinda iffy blaming nellie for leon smith's problems..
it's also interesting as to why nellie would be against young black players but in love with players such as hardaway and finley.

very interesting.
yes, nellie handled webber wrong..but alot of that was webber's fault as well

courtney alexander..hell, he's had difficulty cracking the rotation in washington..a team that is much worse than the mavs..i don't see how you can fault him there.

samaki walker, i don't see a case there against nellie..the guy has basically been a spare his entire career

Donnell Harvey, well, i think it's more of a case where nellie simply doesn't like him enough as an offensive threat..and we all know how much nellie loves offensive players.

i do agree that nellie has some difficulties with the younger players at times..but i don't see a racial tie...it just doesn't make any sense.. does he hate young black kids but loves older black men?
that's a bit extreme i would think

Joe Joe · 02-15-2002, 11:02 PM

Who said it was a racial thing? I just said that Nellie has had a difficult coping with young black guys as oppose to other young guys. I never said it was a racial thing, it is just a fact that Nellie does not know how to deal with the young black guys these days. It's not iffy at all to blame Nellie for the youngsters problems, Nellie and the Mavs stuck a 18 year old KID in Dallas who's background couldn't have been any worse. Nellie knew about all the problems the kid had before being drafted yet he still let the kid roam around Dallas alone as a 18 year old KID. I didn't say Nellie didn't like black guys, but I don't see Finley as being that young either. Yes I agree some was Webber's fault but you got to put most of that on the coaches shoulder, not the player. It was Nellies job to bring the kid in and let him develop into what he is now, not all the other things that went on with that situation. I fault Nellie on CA because you cannot play with a young guys confidence like Nellie did. 1 game he plays, the next 1 he don't. Going in game tome game the kid never knew if he was going to play or not. Then he just traded him to a new city, and a new team rather than developing him into what you brought him there for. Samaki Walker can be a spare, but he will be a spare with a ring at the seasons end. He starts on the World Champions team and is really producing for the Lakers IMO. he is not like the 12th man on the roster, he is a starter who is producing. Yes Nellie loves Offensive players but Donnell Harvey is just about the same Offensive player as Najera, EE, and Bradley is IMO. He has not been given the chance to show what he can really do, hell for all we know he could be a very good offensive player. The guy lives to play Defense and Rebound the ball, and we both know the mavs are lacking in those 2 categories. I never said Nellie hates young black guys, I just don't think he copes with them as well as he does others. I don't think Nellie really hates that many players, I just think that he does not know how to deal with or handle young black guys.

Murphy3 · 02-15-2002, 11:24 PM

whatever you say man...

i agree that nellie doesn't trust young players as much as veterans.. and sometimes they don't get enough time..but i dont' see the connection between black and white..and i don't see any reason to blame him for courtney alexander ..or to blame him for leon smith's problems.....

no, you didn't come out and say racial..although you did basically say it in everything you wrote..

Joe Joe · 02-15-2002, 11:37 PM

How did I say that it is racial in what I wrote Murph? You replied with absolutely nothing man, and I thought I made it very clear that it was not a racial thing with Nellie. I said Nellie do not know how to cope with young black guys as oppose to others. He is an older guy who is used to 1 system, he has to learn that the young guys these days are alot different from when he was playing in the league. Nellie simply does not know how to deal with young black guys, it has nothing to do with him being racist or whatever you see it as. I know that because of the guys Nellie has on this team and some of the things he has said about other players that was black. Nellie is not racist, he just handles young black guys the same way he does with other guys and you cannot do that. I am not saying baby them, but you do have to handle them different in some ways.

grbh · 02-16-2002, 02:32 AM

I want to get back to the jist of my post. In doing so I would like to note the people I use as an example.
1. A Mexican Citizen
2. A White U.S. Citizen
3. A Black U.S. Citizen
4. A Chinese Citizen

So please, I do not believe Nellie is a racist. That is absurd. However i abhor all of you to look at my previous post and read it. Nelson has clearly rewarded young players good games with DNPs. This is a horrible strategy.

Joe Joe · 02-16-2002, 03:01 AM

Look who's treated most poorly of the 4, and you will see my point exactly. No one ever said Nellie was a racist grbh, Murphy3 so I do not really know where you are getting that from. I made it very clear in my post that I do not think Nellie is a racist. Atleast 3 out of the 4 are actually getting some minutes, what is Harvey getting? In what I seen from him when he was given a chance was that he could for sure produce in the 2 areas the Mavs are lacking in.

grbh · 02-16-2002, 03:09 AM

First off, in no way did I mean to incinuate you as a rascist. Secondly, both EE and harvey are receiveing no time right know. This is why I suggested Manning, and Bradley to the IR. In ny opinion you lose nothing. I would like to see somebody convince me otherwise.

Joe Joe · 02-16-2002, 04:06 AM

EE has got some starts this year, and 1 can argue he would be the starting center if he was still healthy. I think if he were still healthy he would be the starting center. Once he comes back and is healthy enough to produce like he was doing, he moves right back into the starting line-up at the center position.

Murphy3 · 02-16-2002, 06:10 AM

EE has also had good games and then followed them up with very little playing time the next game..
...
it's just how nellie is....doesn't always reward the young players with alot of PT even when they are playing well

seelenjaeger · 02-16-2002, 06:28 AM

k, so lets assume Nellie does play his rooks or young guys for not enought time

How come that Eduardo Najera is a "up-to-the-minute" special weapon by now?
Having the Center with likely the best offensive arsenal in the whole league onboard doesnt hurt either, don´t it? And you can choose between Dirk and Wang at this point.
Adrian Griffin was not exactly what I´d call a "solid contributor" when signing him.
Let´s completely forget his past with guys like Timmy.
And those trade for a young Nash. Or for some guy like Finley.
And how about Buckner. He´s a pretty cheap pickup for his abilities, won´t you agree?

Nellie has a vision. He has a plan.

He tries to find the players fitting into that plan. If he gets guys, he tries to utilize them and to educate them to make them a perfect fit.

That´s exactly what he´s doing with EE, like he does with Harvey.

Will Harvey win you any playoff series THIS year?
Likely not.

Will the guys Harvey takes PT off win any playoff series this year?
Maybe not, but they´ll have to, if the Mavs want to go deep.

With Najera and Wang it´s been a little different.
Both are showing their abilities as very special and valuable role players. They are getting used right when needed, their minutes will increase when our big three get some bench time in the end of the year. They will be up to the max when playoffs come (if najera doesnt get traded at least).

So much for the development of young guys.

Nellie a racist?
Maybe he´s a little biased in favour of white guys, I may admit that, but I wouldn´t count it on racism, but on chemistry and vision. Look at the white guys Nellie used those days: most of them beeing Internationals (Dirk, Anstey, Nash, ...) or guys like Laettner, Bradley. Take a look at the NHL (or at Olympic Games): right after the officials realized that International Players might not be as bad as they always thought and add another dimension to the Game those Internationals almost took over the league (Jagr, all those russians and czech, goalies like Hasek, Kölzig), Nellie simply didnt want to be the guys to miss that train, but the one to call it.

Joe Joe · 02-16-2002, 07:18 AM

I disagree completely Seelen, I don't think Nellie is in favor or biased to white guys in anyway. If that was the case, he would have a team full of white guys but it is just the opposite. I do not think Nellie is a racist, once again where are you guys getting this stuff? I said "Nellie does not cope well with young black guys", that's nothing to do with him being racist in anyway. I can see if I had said Nellie hates young black guys and that's why he didn't handle them well. I did not say that, I stated the facts and gave examples as to why I believed that. There's has been many cases where Nellie has handled guys wrong, and a majority of them is black. That's not saying the guy is a racist, that's saying he needs to get in touch with how young black players are these days and learn how to cope with them. These aren't the days when he was playing, a lot of these guys are still kids and some have came from bumpy backgrounds. It is simple, Nellie doesn't handle some young black guys right. That's like a situation where a coach has been coaching for 30 years and has stuck to the way he runs it. 1 day that coach has to realize that these times are different from 30 years ago, and players are younger and not as mature as they made them back then. IMO Nellie does not know that right now, and I thought the Leon Smith fiasco would open his eyes. There's no other person to blame for that kid mishaps not even the kid, I put the blame ALL on Nellie and this staffs shoulders'.

seelenjaeger · 02-16-2002, 07:27 AM

joejoe, please read my post again.

i didnt state nellie would be a racist, i just tried to explain how to get to this opinion.
Leon was just a psycho, he wasnt mentally built for NBA. you can´t blame anyone else on this, either you are strong enough, or you are not. there are quite alot guys out there who completely go mad at times, but hell, he tried to commit suicide! those things are always a matter of the whole situation of course, but blaming nellie and his stuff for not being able to handle a psycho is just weird.

Nellie does in fact a very good job on developing those guys, the young guys.

Take a look at some rooks in the leauge, mid to late first rounders. Joe Forte: no pt. Zach Randolph almost zero pt. even Etan has problems getting any minutes, so does courtney alexander. it is not just a Mavericks or Nellie phenomenon - it ´s a rook problem. they are not ready to contribute at the moment, so they´ll need their time. and they need time, not PLAYING time hurting the team (which it is imho if playing them heavy now).

keep cool

Joe Joe · 02-16-2002, 07:53 AM

Exactly what I mean, if Nellie and his staff didn't want to take on the responsibilities of keeping this kid out of trouble then yes it is their fault. I wonder why he wasn't a phsycho when he worked out for teams, just when he made it to Dallas. That's because while home he had people around him showing him the way, and then he came to Dallas and then came the problems. He was 18, no way in hell after hearing about the kids background do you draft him and not look after him what so ever. Yes I am saying the kid was basically running around Dallas alone, just as he had done as a youngster growing up. Hell anyone could fold under that sort of pressure. You did in your post say "Nellie a racist?", meaning you had the idea of someone thinking that Nellie was a racist. I said it then, and I will say it again I do not think Nellie is a racist. That kid was no damn phsycho until he got here, stuck in a city with no 1 to turn to. Yes he was a kid, just 18 yrs old. What did Nellie and his staff really thinking with this 1. They really screwed up big time. I even read and heard alot of different people saying the exact thing I am. Little Nellie even admitted the kid was handled wrong in every which away. The day he stormed out of practice should have told them something. They didn't try and stop him, sit him down for a talk. They let the kid walk right out the front door back into the streets of Dallas, Tx alone. Yes Nellie develops a few but there's more that he handled wrong instead of developing them into the player that say Webber is. Nellie should be the 1 credited with Webber development, but he isn't He handled Webber wrong just as he has did some other young black KIDS. Back in the day players came into the league more mature and older, but these days AGE isn't nothing but a NUMBER. I do not see what you see obviously, I think Nellie does a poor job of developing players. When Dirk came here, he had a coach come with him that the Mavs payed. Yes the Mavs payed the guy, because he continued to coach and mentor Dirk just as he still does. Wang Zhi Zhi comes here and the Mavs provide for the guy who is here with him. Why not do that for Leon Smith who's passed is alot worser than theirs. I would not wish Leon Smith's past on my worst enemy, it was just that bad just as Nellie and his staff knew when drafting him. Nellie and the Staff was not there for the kid besides when he seen them for practice or whatever for that 3=4 hours. Zach Randolph and Joe Forte really had nothing to do with Nellie, atleast they haven't really had to deal with their names in trade talks. CA plays behind the best that ever played, and some Vets who has been in the league for a while he will get his chance 1 day. That I am sure, but why not with the Mavs'? Why isn't Donnell getting a few minutes here and there? I definitely don't see many legends or superstars playing in front of him.

MavKikiNYC · 02-16-2002, 09:07 AM

Interesting article on Leon Smith (link below). From my perspective, it's really tough to fault the Mavericks for Leon's situation.

http://www.thenewrepublic.com/021400...ory021400.html

Also, weren't the 'private coaches' for Dirk and Wang as much to help them past the language barrier and to ease into a foreign culture? I almost think that if they'd known that Leon needed a fulltime babysitter, the Mavericks would've ponied up, obligated or no. But maybe they mistakenly assumed that Leon's 'family' and 'representatives' would be providing the support system?

And I have to wonder if the Kwami Browns and Jonathan Benders of the league have fulltime staff to keep them out of trouble. I actually recall reading a piece on how the Pacers' Al Harrington lived with Antonio Davis during his first year on the team and how Davis and his family cared for him like an exchange student. Don't recall if this was at the team's instigation or if Davis just stepped up of his own volition and out of a superhuman sense of decency.

But bottom line, Leon Smith was (hopefully) a totally atypical case, even for a direct-to-the-pros high schooler. After reading this article can you really still lay the blame at Nellie's doorstep? Don't think so.

The NBA is a business, and legally the players are adults. They can't be forced to do what they don't want to. Fault the parents who abandoned him, the system that failed him, and the high school pimp-coaches and family/friends who've tried to scam $$ out of and/or off of Smith. But NOT the Mavericks and Nellie who were willing to give him a shot.

David · 02-16-2002, 10:45 AM

Nellie's fault with Leon Smith was in drafting him in the first place.

Nelson tried to get Webber to accept coaching rather than kissing his rear like every coach Webber ever had, since junior high. As good as Webber is, he would be better, IMO, had he accepted Nelson's coaching and got more disciplined. At Golden State, Nelson had no trouble relating to Hardaway, Spewell and several other young black men. Notice that Sprewell hugs Nelson every time he comes to Dallas.

Courtney was TRADED because the Wizards wanted him. To get Juwan, the Mavs had to trade someone of value. Courtney basically duplicated Fin insofar as what they bring to the table. Fin has traditionally been among the league leaders in minutes. Courtney had to TAKE minutes from Finley to get them, otherwise, Nelson is just giving minutes to Courtney for the hell of it and Nelson believes in EARNING minutes. The Mavs are a playoff team. They slowly develop guys who aren't contributing to the cause. Alexander got his minutes last year on a non-playoff, Wiz team. Jordan would love to have some relief but Courtney isn't providing any. The Wiz don't have that many contributors. If they could, they would play Courtney but he lacks something and what he lacks is not Nelson's fault, it's Courtney's.

Of the group of Dirk, Wang, Najera and Harvey. Harvey is the least developed offensively. Dirk and Wang are 7 footers and can shoot so they don't affect Harvey's playing time. Harvey's rivals for playing time are, Najera, Griffen, Buckner and Newman. They are all much better defensive and offensive players than Harvey and are about the same size. When Donnell EARNS minutes, he will get them.

Nelson is funny about running things, HIS way. That makes him old school. If you want someone who understands today's black kid, they should rehire either of the two previous Mav's head coaches. They could relate to the young black man VERY well.

Joe Joe · 02-16-2002, 01:09 PM

MavsKiki you have not heard about Leons background have you? The guy pretty much had no family that was able to look after him. Yes you seen where Al Harrington was looked after and tooken care of. This is my point exactly, it is nothing about babysitting him it's about handling your responsibilites and this kid was their responsibility when they drafted him, am I right? Dirks coach was not only here to help him with language or whatever, he was here to actually look after him. Yes he helped him with the Language and what not but most of it was to actually look out for Dirk. Wang as well, he advisor is here to look out for him while going into an new enviroment. Leon Smith was going into a new enviroment just as those 2 were right? Kwame Brown has a cousin or brother or someone living with him I read. Darius Miles is living with his mom in Marina Del Ray, and I haven't heard much about John Bender but I am sure he has someone with him that's looking out for him. From what I understood Leon had noone in his life that was able to come here and lookout for him. Neither of those guys past were near as bad as Leon Smiths. I do not have to read a article, all I know is a majority of the other teams would have handled it totaly different IMO. The Mavs knew his background when drafting him, and they couldv'e easily stuck him with a asst coach or someone. I am sure it wouldn't have been a problem and probably would have helped the guy mature a lot quicker. CA is on a whole different team now, when he was here he was handled poorly. He's playing behind Michael Jordan now, just how many minutes do you really expect him to get David? He is also playing behind Rip Hamilton too, again how many minutes do you expect him to get David? Those 2 are a lot better than the guys he was playing behing while wearing a Mavs Jersey. No David I have not noticed Sprewell hugging Nellie every time he is here, with that said I have never seen him hug Nellie. Like I said sure he has handled some well but for everyone he's handled well there's 3 he has handled poorly. Hardaway and Sprewell came right into the league getting playing time, I do not really know if they actually outplayed guys for minutes or what. If they did or not, I find it hard that alot of young black players have came in here and not played hard for Nellie. I find that very hard to believe, it's plain and simple Nellie does not know how to cope with todays young black kid. By the way David, none of those guys are much better defenders than Donnell. What have you actually seen from him to indicate his defense is that bad. I do not buy the crap about those guys defense being that good, that they are that much better of a defender. Nellie doesn't give the kid a chance to play, so how do you know how good of a defender he is. He came out of College and High School was a Dennis Rodman type player and WE ALL know how great a defender Rodman was. I am sure they didn't make that comparison because of his rebounding alone now did they David?

MavKikiNYC · 02-16-2002, 02:27 PM

Joe,

You read that article on him?

We probably have about the same amount of first-hand info on Leon. I agree that Leon's is a sad story, but I completely disagree that the Mavs have any responsibility for it, or any obligation to Leon beyond the $100K per year they're paying him over the next ten years.

This responsbility lies with the people who were supposed to be taking care of the kid and advising him, and at some point pretty soon, maybe already even, he has to become responsible for himself.

There is a huge difference between going into a new environment where you don't even speak the same language (Wang and Dirk) and going into essentially the same cultural environment (Leon). Mavericks had no reason to believe that Smith couldn't make it through the transition, and to try to make them responsible is just looking for someone to blame.

I ain't buyin' it.

MavKikiNYC · 02-16-2002, 02:32 PM

'I do not have to read a article.."

Well, there ya go.

Smiles · 02-16-2002, 04:37 PM

Joe,
Tell me about "todays young black player" as you call it. Perhaps that is where some of our breakdown in communication is coming from.
"...age isn't nothing but a NUMBER..." Does this mean you think there's a difference in how quickly they mature? Perhaps you mean that there is a cultural difference that gives them certain additional needs? Some of us grew up with a culture where kids were abused, some abandoned - wardens of the state - most with huge strikes against them. We all have choices to make - especially given "unstellar" backgrounds. None of us will get anywhere if we blame our circumstances and others for our choices. Sure, you and many other people will say, "Oh, that guy had a rough childhood." Or "She behaves that way because of her past." But Joe, you can understand and sympathize with me all you want, but that is not going to help me make anything of myself. That is not going to help Leon start making good choices. Another person (Nellie, the staff) cannot be 100% responsible for my choices or Leon's choices or your choices. Maybe Nellie's help would've made a difference, but we are accountable for our own actions.

seelenjaeger · 02-16-2002, 05:42 PM

but c´mon, could we please end this Leon Smith debate?

there´s exactly nothing we gain out of it ... poor Leon Smith needed some love and nursery, hell, why did he declare for NBA then? if you get a kid paid really well and not having to cope about it´s present and future any more, even beeing in a position where he only has to CALL for someone to HAVE someone (may it be a whore or a guy who cares for his health or his loneliness). he was drafted because of his on court abilities, and nellie surely missed it´s off court attitude. Leon Smith was rumoured to sign a 10-day contract some weeks ago, any idea why he actually didnt get one?

If you judge Nellie by Leon, then you´re on the wrong track. Nellie is one of few coaches who may claim one star for each failure in developing. If you´re open minded towards Nellie, he will be open minded to you. End of line.

Joe Joe · 02-16-2002, 08:29 PM

Umm if I remember right Leon Smith had no choice but to go pro. There was no maybe he can go to college for a few years and develop. This kid had no 1 to see after him, and going to college was not a option. I am pretty sure if he had the chance to go to college he probably would. The avg young black kid is not as mature as the avd white kid, I am sure we are in agreement on that. The avg black kid is not only going to be younger but more than likely will come from a family that didn't have much growing up. Leon Smith didn't have much, hell he had nothing. They stuck him in this new city with alot and trusted him to behave the way a regular kid would. He did not have the past of a regular kid. I think we all know this could have been avoided if the kid was provided with some care, and Leon Smith did not get that. How can you say he had to be held responsible, he was 18 in a new city all by his lonesome? What in the hell did you expect him really to do, I knew he was going to fold. Hell any man would fold with all went on with him, and the lack of support he got from the Mavs.

Murphy3 · 02-16-2002, 10:03 PM

the average black kid is younger than the average white kid?..that makes alot of sense
you lost the argument..sorry...get over the leon smith thing..

not everyone folds when they have to deal with adversity....sorry, that's a poor cop-out

Joe Joe · 02-16-2002, 10:26 PM

Who said "the avg black kid is younger"? I said the avg black kid is going to be younger than the avg white kid that comes into the league. Take Donnell Harvey, when he came into the league. He played 1 year of College ball and Najera played 4 seasons and came out after his senior year. All of the guys who came out of High School is black, not white. That alone proves my theory about the whole thing. You cannot deal with a 18 year old, exactly the same you deal with a 22 or 23 years old. It don't take a genius to know that Murphy3, I am sure even you know that man just as I do.

Murphy3 · 02-16-2002, 10:35 PM

<< The avg black kid is not only going to be younger but more than likely will come from a family that didn't have much growing up >>

actually, this is what you said..you didn't say anything about the average black kid coming into the NBA was younger than the average white coming into the NBA.

but i agree with you..the NBA should have baby sitters for all late first round and second round draft picks that come straight out of high school

besides, they had it rough growing up..they don't know the difference between right and wrong. they were poor, who could possibly make them responsible for their own actions?

nothing proves your theory because your theory is based upon stupidity. as long as your theories are ignorant and based upon stupidity, we will be forced to read your ignorant garbage that you pass off as a "theory"

Joe Joe · 02-17-2002, 01:09 AM

Thanks you just proved my "theory"

MFFL · 02-17-2002, 01:54 AM

JJ - You have some interesting insights into the situation. However the error of your reasoning is with the players you name.

Leon Smith - late first round pick
Alexander - mid first round pick in the worst draft of the last decade
Harvey - late first round pick in the worst draft of the last decade

Picks this late are a crapshoot. Most times they are just fringe players and never contribute in any type of meaningful way.

Webber - he took a long time to make it big. Isn't he on his 3rd team?

This thread is very unfair to Nellie. He has been masterful at developing talent in Milwaukee and Golden State. And now he has done the same in Dallas.

Rhylan · 02-17-2002, 02:06 AM

<< I said the avg black kid is going to be younger than the avg white kid that comes into the league. >>

An interesting side note, is that this goes back to a previous discussion that good leapers are overrated. I heard one of the Mavs' coaches say Donnell's shot wasn't even at "high-school" level yet. Why can't Donnell shoot a basketball? Because he never had to, he always jumped over everyone. Then he plays one year at Florida, has an okay Freshman year. But he jumps really high and kicks his legs like Rodman when he runs down the court, so he gets people whispering in his ear about coming out early.

And, he made the right decision, simply because riding the pine in Dallas and working with Dallas coaches will in the end allow his game to develop more than it would have in the 3 years "lost" at Florida. Why? Because a guy of his size needs a face-to-the-basket offensive game, and he wouldn't have been given the opportunity to develop that playing for Florida. Instead, they would have been using him to win basketball games for Florida, as a "big man," almost only using his athletic ability, by posting him up all the time.

MFFL · 02-17-2002, 02:12 AM

I hope that Harvey's development is not retarded because of Kiki going to Denver. The man was AMAZING at player development.

Joe Joe · 02-17-2002, 02:24 AM

I agree about KiKi, he was great for this team. I think the Mavs should get another guy in here that can work with these young guys or just let him waste time not devloping like he is supposed to.

MFFL · 02-17-2002, 02:27 AM

Did we ever hire Moses Malone to teach our guys to rebound?

Joe Joe · 02-17-2002, 02:38 AM

Don't think so, watching him play in the game at All-Star weekend, I think he could really help out with the young guys. He still looks like he could help out a team in the coaching area, I don't know what you guys think of him when you all seen him.

MFFL · 02-17-2002, 02:41 AM

If a man of Malone's caliber is willing to help the Mavs then Cuban needs to open the checkbook.

Joe Joe · 02-17-2002, 02:44 AM

I agree 100%, he could help the team rebound better, play better defense and help the young guys develop. He could also help out some of the vets on their post up games. When KiKi was here he not only helped the young guys out, he helped any and everyone that wanted his help. Malone would be a great addition to this coaching staff.

MFFL · 02-17-2002, 02:47 AM

The thing that so amazing about Mo Malone was how good he was at rebounding despite several physical handicaps. His hands are small - he can't palm the ball. He's not a good leaper. And he wasn't particularly tall. He just wanted the ball more than anyone else on the court.

grbh · 02-17-2002, 04:00 AM

Back to the Leon Smith issue for a moment. First off the Mavs did not chaperone him well enough, that is clear. It is also important to note that this guy had problems with his mental health. As somebody with first hand experience in this at a close level, all I can say is you will never see it coming. the first outbreak of a manic/depressive is almost never caught. This is what happened to Smith, hence the whole Indian thing. After diagnosis it is somewhat controlable, but it often takes up to 5-7 years to find the right medicine to control the situation. I think it is unfair to blame anybody in this situation. Manic-Depressive is a chemical problem in the brain (essentially it is the brain not producing enough salt which somehow controls the moods. I am not a doctor so i could be wrong, but this is how it was explained to me. It is also why they use lithium type of drugs, which replenish that). Likewise the Mavs did not know of his problems and hence could not react to them in a timely manner. Could the Mavs have handled the situation better, yes, but would any NBA team have kept Smith from his unfortunate situation, probably not. Leon Smith is batling a disease which he can never conquer, so the best anyone can do is wish upon him the best care, and God's good wishes