NBA Season 14-15: General Thread - Page 22 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Bryan_Wilson · 06-16-2015, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Glad to see Shaun Livingston get a ring too. That knee injury he had back in 07 is easily the worst sports injury I've ever seen. Very few people could ever come back from that, let alone contribute to a championship winning team.

Inspirational story...

of reaching out and grabbing what you want in life.

On a serious note I'm glad to see GSW's win it.

MavzMan · 06-16-2015, 11:36 PM

GS top two highest paid players are David Lee and Andrew Bogut while Draymond Green only made $915,243. Wow. Maybe the MVP should have been given to their GM.

FreshJive · 06-16-2015, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavzMan

GS top two highest paid players are David Lee and Andrew Bogut while Draymond Green only made $915,243. Wow. Maybe the MVP should have been given to their GM.

Steph is a ridiculous bargain

FreshJive · 06-16-2015, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

Inspirational story...

of reaching out and grabbing what you want in life.

On a serious note I'm glad to see GSW's win it.

Haha. Well done

Thespiralgoeson · 06-17-2015, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

Inspirational story...

of reaching out and grabbing what you want in life.

On a serious note I'm glad to see GSW's win it.

That is about the funniest damn thing I've ever seen. Right up there with this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUHIfOicCbU

Melonhead · 06-17-2015, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavzMan

GS top two highest paid players are David Lee and Andrew Bogut while Draymond Green only made $915,243. Wow. Maybe the MVP should have been given to their GM.

And how were Green, Curry, Thompson, Barnes acquired at such a "bargain" in the first place? Hmmm...

Melonhead · 06-17-2015, 03:31 AM

Word came out of the locker room that Shawn Marion was "furious" he didn't get to play in the series at all...

Thespiralgoeson · 06-17-2015, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melonhead

Word came out of the locker room that Shawn Marion was "furious" he didn't get to play in the series at all...

The guy is old as dirt. I doubt he could have contributed much of anything.

GhostFace · 06-17-2015, 08:04 AM

Damn. Well, this sucks. On to the next season.

Underdog · 06-17-2015, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I still think it should be Lebron, but if you have to go with the winning team, then yeah Iggy was definitely the MVP of this series.

Sorry, but I don't think a guy who only gets 2 wins in a best of 7 series deserves jack squat, even if he was walking on water out there... Finals MVP is all about results, not effort.

EDIT: maybe you could make that argument if the series went a full 7 games, but you absolutely cannot give it to a guy whose team loses in 6.

DevinHarriswillstart · 06-17-2015, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melonhead

Word came out of the locker room that Shawn Marion was "furious" he didn't get to play in the series at all...

I love Marion, but the Cavs needed offense not defense.

MavzMan · 06-17-2015, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melonhead

Word came out of the locker room that Shawn Marion was "furious" he didn't get to play in the series at all...

I was actually wondering why Blatt didn't at least give him a chance given that the Cavs were absolutely desperate for someone with 3 point range. But then, I haven't watched them all season and don't know if Matrix has just dried up into a prune. But for him to be "furious" ... yeah, suck it up. You're old.

Jack.Kerr · 06-17-2015, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Sorry, but I don't think a guy who only gets 2 wins in a best of 7 series deserves jack squat, even if he was walking on water out there... Finals MVP is all about results, not effort.

EDIT: maybe you could make that argument if the series went a full 7 games, but you absolutely cannot give it to a guy whose team loses in 6.

Agree. Closest thing to Lebron's performance that comes to mind is Julius Erving's 1977 spectacular Finals performance (where Blazers won the series in 6, and Walton won MVP), or Iverson's in 2001 (where Lakers won the series in 5, and Shaq took MVP). In a losing, undermanned effort, Lebron's numbers are impressive, but in that situation he's more of an Only Player of Value for Cleveland. He looked tired last night, and except for that rush or 3s at the finish of the game, it looked like the Cavs had almost lost interest. I'm still struck by the realization that out of six championship appearances, Lebron only has two rings, and if the Spurs had been able to close out the Heat in 2013, he'd only have one. It's an odd type of simultaneous success and failure.

Iguodala was the best choice, IMO, despite his putrid FT-shooting. He was a good-to-excellent two-way threat throughout the series. Curry's numbers were solid, and he had a couple of good stretches, but I never had the sense that he was controlling any game.

Glad to see Steve's success, and the Warriors had a spectacular season and are deserving champions. Remains to be seen, though, whether this is the start of a trend for Small Ball champions, or whether this is a one-off. I don't think the Warriors can be static. Cleveland really exposed a weakness, made Mozgov look like an All-Star, and if the Cavs had been anywhere near full-strength, I'm not sure this would've been the Dubs year.

Dubs seemed so young, and inexperienced, and careless with the ball. Maddeningly dumb passes from Green and Curry, and dumb fouls from Thompson. He's got a really weird affect when he fouls, as if he knows he's making a bad play but just can't help himself, and you know another foul is coming in a matter of seconds. Still trying to figure out if their overall loosey-goosiness was a bug or a feature of their success.

Also, tip of the hat to Bogut, who got pulled from the rotation. His contribution to the series was limited, but those two hard fouls on Lebron in Game 4 were critical to the Dubs digging in and fighting back. Now both Bogut and the Warriors are champions. (And Mark Jackson works in TV.)

melvind · 06-17-2015, 02:31 PM

Welp,

2014-15 is now over and next up the draft and summer leagues and free agent signings. I wonder who will be the first domino to drop as far as the big names either in free agent signing or via trade. Stephenson doesn't count. W's are going to be here for awhile so they will be the measuring stick. Will be interesting how OKC gets back in the mix. Next year as well as any year will be about who can stay healthy. The Dubs were blessed by the bball gods in this category and I wonder if it will happen again next year?

Man can football season get here fast enough?

melvind · 06-17-2015, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Let me put it this way- the current Cavs roster when fully healthy is absolutely capable of winning a championship. However, the moment it was clear that they could have Lebron, Love and Irving, I believe they started thinking more than just "championship," they started thinking "dynasty." The midseason trades for Mozgov, Smith and Shumpert brought them a good deal closer. Right now, I think the difference between them being potential championship team and a potential dynasty is a high caliber sixth man. Every great team in history has had one. Hell, Golden State has several. It's why Popovich always started bringing Ginobili off the bench once the playoffs rolled around, even if he was always a starter during the regular season.

So if I'm David Griffin, my no. 1 priority this offseason (other than re-signing Love) is to shop around any combination of Delavedova, Shumpert, or Smith to get a scoring, playmaking sixth man.

Vegas already has the Cavs as the 9-4 favorites to win it all next year with the Dubs/Thunder in 2nd at 5-1 odds and the Clippers at 10-1.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-17-2015, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Sorry, but I don't think a guy who only gets 2 wins in a best of 7 series deserves jack squat, even if he was walking on water out there... Finals MVP is all about results, not effort.

EDIT: maybe you could make that argument if the series went a full 7 games, but you absolutely cannot give it to a guy whose team loses in 6.

Stupid criteria then. He was by FAR the best player in the series, and was INFINITELY more "valuable" than Andre f*cking Iguodala.

This is why I've always had a problem with MVP awards- finals or otherwise. There's no actual criteria. It's completely subjective nonsense, and usually just gets reduced to "best player for the best team," which is stupid.

Underdog · 06-17-2015, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Stupid criteria then.

Yeah, WINNING is a stupid criteria for Finals MVP.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-17-2015, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Yeah, WINNING is a stupid criteria for Finals MVP.

Well WINNING is a team achievement, and MVP is an individual accolade, so yeah, the logic there is inherently flawed.

If it completely disqualifies and discounts what was easily one of the best performances in NBA playoff history- something that utterly dwarfs ANYTHING any of the Warriors players did, then yes it's stupid. And if it means that Andre Iguodala was more "valuable" than Lebron James then not just stupid- it's f*cking retarded.

DirkFTW · 06-17-2015, 04:41 PM

This could all be resolved with a Finals MIP award.

Don't let this basketball 501 fall on death ears.

Underdog · 06-17-2015, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Well WINNING is a team achievement, and MVP is an individual accolade, so yeah, the logic there is inherently flawed.

If it completely disqualifies and discounts what was easily one of the best performances in NBA playoff history- something that utterly dwarfs ANYTHING any of the Warriors players did, then yes it's stupid. And if it means that Andre Iguodala was more "valuable" than Lebron James then not just stupid- it's f*cking retarded.

LeBron James shot 30% against Iguodala, 42% against everyone else in this series... Iggy didn't win Finals MVP for being the best player on the best team -- he won it by slowing down the best player in the world just enough that his team could win the Finals.

When David slays Goliath, David gets to be MVP.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-17-2015, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

LeBron James shot 30% against Iguodala, 42% against everyone else in this series...

Wow, that is amazing. That does make him a reasonable choice for the award then.

Still, when one guy averages 38.5 ppg 13.3 rpg 8.8 apg, and another guy averages 16.3 ppg 5.8 ppg 4.0 apg- and an utterly atrocious .357 FT% and not even starting in the first 3 games, I tend to go with the first guy as the "most valuable." Especially considering that the first guy's team had about 1/8th the talent the second guy's team had.

Quote:

Iggy didn't win Finals MVP for being the best player on the best team -- he won it by slowing down the best player in the world just enough that his team could win the Finals.

When David slays Goliath, David gets to be MVP.

I don't necessarily have a problem with that line of thinking- (and like I said before, I like Iggy quite a bit and I'm glad to see him have his moment in the sun-) but that makes the criteria for the award even more subjective and arbitrary- which is why I've always sort of disliked MVP awards in general. If it isn't "best player for the best team" then what is it? It seems like everyone has a different idea of what an MVP is, and NOBODY can quite define what their idea is when asked. That's why I like the Heisman Trophy. No subjective nonsense about who's more "valuable" to what team- just simply who is the best player.

Underdog · 06-17-2015, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Wow, that is amazing. That does make him a reasonable choice for the award then.

Still, when one guy averages 38.5 ppg 13.3 rpg 8.8 apg, and another guy averages 16.3 ppg 5.8 ppg 4.0 apg- and an utterly atrocious .357 FT% and not even starting in the first 3 games, I tend to go with the first guy as the "most valuable." Especially considering that the first guy's team had about 1/8th the talent the second guy's team had.

I don't necessarily have a problem with that line of thinking- (and like I said before, I like Iggy quite a bit and I'm glad to see him have his moment in the sun-) but that makes the criteria for the award even more subjective and arbitrary- which is why I've always sort of disliked MVP awards in general. If it isn't "best player for the best team" then what is it? It seems like everyone has a different idea of what an MVP is, and NOBODY can quite define what their idea is when asked. That's why I like the Heisman Trophy. No subjective nonsense about who's more "valuable" to what team- just simply who is the best player.

I think the criteria for Finals MVP is simple: the most valuable player of the winning team.

If you want to debate Curry vs. Iguodala, then fine, I get that... But it's a little more difficult to argue between a winner and a loser, since winning is the ultimate goal in sports. And honestly, I think LeBron would see it as a bit of a slap in the face -- or at least a hollow compliment -- if he won a Finals MVP that wasn't accompanied by the Larry O'Brien trophy.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-17-2015, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I think the criteria for Finals MVP is simple: the most valuable player of the winning team.

If you want to debate Curry vs. Iguodala, then fine, I get that... But it's a little more difficult to argue between a winner and a loser, since winning is the ultimate goal in sports.

I don't think it's difficult when one team is overwhelmingly, insanely more talented than the other- and the lesser team is competitive when it has absolutely no business being so- and that is solely due to a near superhuman performance of one player- when that one player is not only the best player in the series, but nobody else comes even remotely close to touching him. It's not difficult for me at all to say that said player is more "valuable" than another guy who put up literally less than half the numbers. Again, for me it's a problem of attributing team success to an individual award. I agree that the MVP should generally be on the team that wins, but these were extraordinary circumstances. The best players on the respective teams in the finals are usually at least comparable, and so the player on the winning team then always gets the award. But when it's not even remotely close- when the player on the losing team isn't even in the stratosphere as everyone else- to me that outweighs simply being on the winning team.

Quote:

And honestly, I think LeBron would see it as a bit of a slap in the face -- or at least a hollow compliment -- if he won a Finals MVP that wasn't accompanied by the Larry O'Brien trophy.

He very well might. I'm sure Jerry West probably didn't find it much of a consolation either. Still, doesn't change who my vote would go to.

EDIT: Also, the fact that you could reasonably argue that Iggy wasn't even the most valuable player for his own team sort of undermines the case for him IMO.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-17-2015, 07:13 PM

Man, these are sad times for Mavs fans when all we have to argue about is whether Lebron James or Andre Iguodala should have been Finals MVP.

Underdog · 06-17-2015, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Man, these are sad times for Mavs fans when all we have to argue about is whether Lebron James or Andre Iguodala should have been Finals MVP.

Well, we should be talking about the draft, but we're Mavs fans so what's the point?

Jack.Kerr · 06-17-2015, 08:11 PM

Jerry West Named MVP in Losing Effort

This looks for all the world like a 7th-grade boys' game. And Wilt sits out the critical moments.

Underdog · 06-17-2015, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack.Kerr

Jerry West Named MVP in Losing Effort

This looks for all the world like a 7th-grade boys' game. And Wilt sits out the critical moments.

Yeah, I can't take any stats, awards or championships too seriously from the pre-80s NBA/ABA... There were what, 14 teams in the league when this happened? Pro basketball just wasn't a very competitive sport back then (sure, a few players from yesteryear could hang in the league today, but the mid-talents and scrubs back then could barely even play fundamental basketball).

Thespiralgoeson · 06-17-2015, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Well, we should be talking about the draft, but we're Mavs fans so what's the point?

I laughed. Then I cried.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-17-2015, 08:39 PM

^^ According to this- http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...t-track-record- Donnie Nelson is one of the three worst GM's in the league when it comes to the draft.

MavzMan · 06-18-2015, 08:03 AM

Couldn't agree more with Skip ...

Skip Bayless: I love Steph but GSt had a fortuitous run to title. Avoided OKC, Clips, Spurs and 4 straight injured starting PGs. Needs to validate next yr

Jack.Kerr · 06-18-2015, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavzMan

Couldn't agree more with Skip ...

Skip Bayless: I love Steph but GSt had a fortuitous run to title. Avoided OKC, Clips, Spurs and 4 straight injured starting PGs. Needs to validate next yr

Validate? That can be argued about any team. And it's not even clear what's being argued. 67 regular season wins validates the Warriors THIS year.

In the playoffs, they took on all comers, and defeated them how ever they found them. That said, I think that Dubs will have to improve to repeat. Teams will know their personnel and their schemes, and they won't be able to surprise anybody with an unorthodox style of play.

Will be interesting to see how (or whether) this year's playoff experience matures young players like Thompson, Green, and even Curry, and whether it hardens them into ruthless playoff warriors.

Are they a dynasty? Probably not.

Are they likely to be repeat? Odds are usually against it, but they can easily be in the mix.

Bryan_Wilson · 06-18-2015, 01:37 PM

I get the whole being fortunate themselves for their own lack of injuries. I do not understand the lack of validation for other teams being injured at pg(or elsewhere for that matter). GSW's never even saw an elimination game. I don't like the "if so and so was healthy such and such would have/have not happened". It's next man up, If one team invests everything into 3 star players(Cavs) and has "scrubs" everywhere else I'm not going to suddenly give some asterisk or lack of validity when one or two of those guys suddenly gets hurt. If you don't want James Jones type players playing heavy mins don't have 3 max type players take all your cap and a bench of players you don't want to even see the court. Guys on each one of those teams (Cavs, Rockettes, Grizz, Pelis) had guys get extra minutes and contribute. Another example... all year long we heard how Harden carried a scrub group of Rockettes by himself. How he just had no help around him with DH12 hurt, that includes PB and Dmo when they were healthy. Then suddenly PB isn't there(and DH12 is) and now it's an excuse for why GSW's are fortunate. Give me an effing break. First he's a MVP candidate for carrying scrubs, now GSW's are lucky cuz PB would have guarded steph and turned the tide of the series(Just stahp!!!). GSW beating the tar out of teams with that 59-0 stat or whatever it was of being up 15+ and never losing and never facing an elimination game and having 67 win season more than validates what they did in my book.

Underdog · 06-18-2015, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

I get the whole being fortunate themselves for their own lack of injuries. I do not understand the lack of validation for other teams being injured at pg(or elsewhere for that matter). GSW's never even saw an elimination game. I don't like the "if so and so was healthy such and such would have/have not happened". It's next man up, If one team invests everything into 3 star players(Cavs) and has "scrubs" everywhere else I'm not going to suddenly give some asterisk or lack of validity when one or two of those guys suddenly gets hurt. If you don't want James Jones type players playing heavy mins don't have 3 max type players take all your cap and a bench of players you don't want to even see the court. Guys on each one of those teams (Cavs, Rockettes, Grizz, Pelis) had guys get extra minutes and contribute. Another example... all year long we heard how Harden carried a scrub group of Rockettes by himself. How he just had no help around him with DH12 hurt, that includes PB and Dmo when they were healthy. Then suddenly PB isn't there(and DH12 is) and now it's an excuse for why GSW's are fortunate. Give me an effing break. First he's a MVP candidate for carrying scrubs, now GSW's are lucky cuz PB would have guarded steph and turned the tide of the series(Just stahp!!!). GSW beating the tar out of teams with that 59-0 stat or whatever it was of being up 15+ and never losing and never facing an elimination game and having 67 win season more than validates what they did in my book.

DevinHarriswillstart · 06-18-2015, 06:33 PM

GS was set to win it all since early in the season. Validation can go stick it where the sun don't shine.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-18-2015, 06:39 PM

Yeah, Skip is talking out of his ass as usual. The Dubs are by far and away the best team in the league. They don't need to "validate" squat. EVERY championship team is "fortuitous"- getting through the playoffs with your roster intact is always just plain luck, and if they avoided tough match-ups it's because they dominated the regular reason and earned the top seed. That's the whole point of playoff seeding.

Thespiralgoeson · 06-19-2015, 09:17 PM

Quote:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...ess-conference

The following testimony from ESPN.com's Marc Stein in a Thursday report did nothing to quiet down the purported control James has over the team, including Blatt:

My ESPN.com colleague Brian Windhorst, who ranks as the most credentialed LeBron-ologist there is after shadowing James since his teens, went on SVP & Russillo on Wednesday and posited that No. 23 actually wouldn't mind if the Euroleague import keeps coaching the Cavs because he "likes having Blatt to kick around." I wouldn't expect to hear anyone in Cleveland dispute it, either. Because they can't.

Stein also mentioned that James openly and demonstratively disagreed with Blatt during the NBA Finals. In one instance, James allegedly disliked a play so much that Blatt wound up drawing up a new one to please him.

Man, if all that is true, then it speaks very poorly of Lebron. I mean, it's understandable for a player of Lebron's caliber, who has already won championships and dominated the NBA for as long as he has, to think he knows the game better than a coach with no NBA experience. But openly disrespecting your coach in front of teammates and within the organization? That's just plain sh*tty.

I feel bad for Blatt. He signed on to coach a young, rebuilding team that would absolutely respect his authority. Instead he's at the mercy of his superstar- and gets none of the credit if the Cavs win and most of the blame when they lose.

Jack.Kerr · 06-22-2015, 08:26 AM

For perspective: NBA Finals Game 1 Blazers v. Sixers (1977)

First year after the merger with the ABA. Julius Erving's first year in Philly. Walton at his peak. 19 year-old Dawkins. Short shorts. No 3-point line. Two officials (who were awful, btw; some things never change). Starting to look a bit more like modern basketball, but I'm struck by how much the 3-point line has opened the game up.

Erving was spectacular, but was played tough by Bob Gross. (Who?). Doug Collins could shoot. George McGinnis was pretty much useless and worthless. Maurice Lucas had him totally intimidated. Bill Walton could've been somebody.

Future NBA Coaches: Doug Collins, Lionel Hollins, Mike Dunleavy

Future NCAA Coaches: Henry Bibby

Fathers of Future NBA players: Joe Bryant (Kobe), Bill Walton (Luke), Mike Dunleavy (Mike Jr.), Henry Bibby (Mike)

Melonhead · 06-22-2015, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Man, if all that is true, then it speaks very poorly of Lebron. I mean, it's understandable for a player of Lebron's caliber, who has already won championships and dominated the NBA for as long as he has, to think he knows the game better than a coach with no NBA experience. But openly disrespecting your coach in front of teammates and within the organization? That's just plain sh*tty.

I feel bad for Blatt. He signed on to coach a young, rebuilding team that would absolutely respect his authority. Instead he's at the mercy of his superstar- and gets none of the credit if the Cavs win and most of the blame when they lose.

http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/p...att-unbecoming

Marc Stein article of what he witnessed being near their bench is even more damning.

Bryan_Wilson · 06-23-2015, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melonhead

http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/p...att-unbecoming

Marc Stein article of what he witnessed being near their bench is even more damning.

Lebron's treatment toward Blatt is just disgusting. Blatt really gets screwed in all of this. He either gets retained where Lebron can "kick him around" and get zero credit if they win. Or the Cavs mercifully let him go but his once promising resume as a rising star coach is tainted and I'd wager not a single NBA team would be willing to go near him with a head coaching position. His NBA coaching career will at least be delayed if not totally ruined before he ever had a chance.

bunkmoreland · 06-24-2015, 11:36 AM

It really makes you appreciate how fortunate we have been over the last 15 years to have Dirk in Dallas. Some top players are not very likeable. But when they play for your team and they are amazing players, you often overlook that. We've never had to do that with Dirk.