Plan B if D Wade and Lebron go elsewhere - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

sike · 05-24-2010, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

not a bad Plan B. it would take a little more than just Caron to get Jefferson probably as well.

I agree about needing more than Caron, but its an intriguing thought at least...

Underdog · 05-24-2010, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

I agree about needing more than Caron, but its an intriguing thought at least...

You could get Al Jefferson with the DUST Chip straight-up.

(if the T-Wolves were looking SOLELY for financial relief...)

Kidd Karma · 05-24-2010, 06:00 PM

Beginning to think Jefferson might be that number 2 we need, with his low post threat, 5 feet and in is automatic to him, then you can stagger both Dirk and Jefferson's minutes, to at least give us an offensive threat on the floor at all times.....but of course RC will probably screw that up somehow.

grndmstr_c · 05-24-2010, 08:04 PM

I might be in the minority on this, but Jefferson's not all that high on my list. A few reasons:

1) he doesn't provide any kind of a defensive presence at center
2) his scoring efficiency is pretty pedestrian for a guy who shoots as much as he does
3) his numbers have been trending downward the last few years rather than evidencing growth.

Certainly you could argue that his exile to Minnesota has something to do with the 2nd and 3rd points above, and if that's the case and Minnesota is making him available for pennies (dimes?) on the dollar, then he would definitely be a smart buy. Still, I'd want to explore all my options for acquiring JJ and/or Iggy (in addition to the top names) before I looked his way, for example.

sike · 05-24-2010, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Certainly you could argue that his exile to Minnesota has something to do with the 2nd and 3rd points above, and if that's the case and Minnesota is making him available for pennies (dimes?) on the dollar, then he would definitely be a smart buy. Still, I'd want to explore all my options for acquiring JJ and/or Iggy (in addition to the top names) before I looked his way, for example.

I agree that he hasn't had the opportunity or supporting cast to really shine...I imagine that if you have any soul or pride I'm pretty sure that Minny would suck it right out of ya.

Without any further thought or study, I would go for Jefferson over JJ.

Dirkadirkastan · 05-24-2010, 08:20 PM

Weren't the Timberwolves worse when Jefferson was on the floor? That's hard to do.

sike · 05-24-2010, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Weren't the Timberwolves worse when Jefferson was on the floor? That's hard to do.

Does that mean you think he isn't clearly the best player on that team?

mavs777 · 05-25-2010, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

Does that mean you think he isn't clearly the best player on that team?

Love is better but he is strictly a 4

mavs777 · 05-25-2010, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Weren't the Timberwolves worse when Jefferson was on the floor? That's hard to do.

Thats cause him and Love don't complement each other, Hollins and Love are totally different players and lets your spacing be so much better

Thespiralgoeson · 05-24-2010, 09:10 PM

I just don't have any interest in getting guys who play the same position as Dirk. For me, there's JJ, then there's Iggy, then there's everyone else.

sike · 05-24-2010, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I just don't have any interest in getting guys who play the same position as Dirk. For me, there's JJ, then there's Iggy, then there's everyone else.

Jefferson is a Post Player. He and Dirk would rarely occupy the same spots on the floor.

The only question is, "Can Jefferson play post defense?"

SMC0007 · 05-24-2010, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I just don't have any interest in getting guys who play the same position as Dirk. For me, there's JJ, then there's Iggy, then there's everyone else.

What? He's a center. Well, but he damn sure would be one here. Joe Johnson or Iggy added to this team without keeping Butler isn't making us real contenders. Idk why Minnesota would let a stud like Jefferson go, but he > anyone else not Wade or Lebron. Especially > Bosh who I am quickly becoming hateful towards. In fact he shouldn't even be on this list because he's a doucher... and doesn't wanna play here.

grndmstr_c · 05-24-2010, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Joe Johnson or Iggy added to this team without keeping Butler isn't making us real contenders.

While I think both JJ and Iggy are better players than Butler, and would be better fits on the team as well, I can agree with the sentiment that if Caron is the price of either of those two you've still got more work to do. Just to clarify, though, are you also suggesting that a Caron for Jefferson swap would vault the Mavs into (co-)favorite status?

dalger · 05-25-2010, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

While I think both JJ and Iggy are better players than Butler, and would be better fits on the team as well, I can agree with the sentiment that if Caron is the price of either of those two you've still got more work to do.

No question about it. Iguodala or Johnson aren't all that much better than Butler. What concerns me about Joe Johnson is that he clearly tends to be worse in the playoffs than during the regular season. He only shot 38.7%, 41.7% and 40.9% from the field in the last three postseasons. I know that field goal percentage isn't everything, but that almost sounds like a Terry-esque pattern and this very pattern is one of the main reasons why we experienced yet another first-round exit. With the exception of Dirk, how many times have we seen players like Jet or Josh or Damp and now Marion or Kidd underachieve during the playoffs? One could argue that Johnson would benefit from playing next to Dirk, however, his numbers hardly indicate that he is a true superstar. Shooting 38.7% isn't even worthy of a second banana.

Sacrificing Butler for LeBron or Wade would be a no-brainer. If we had to do the same in order to get Iggy or Johnson, then we'd better have another impact player on his way to Big D.

SMC0007 · 05-25-2010, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

While I think both JJ and Iggy are better players than Butler, and would be better fits on the team as well, I can agree with the sentiment that if Caron is the price of either of those two you've still got more work to do. Just to clarify, though, are you also suggesting that a Caron for Jefferson swap would vault the Mavs into (co-)favorite status?

No Jefferson would not make us any sort of favorite imo. I also like Kaman. But We're gonna need major help. Lebron or Wade kind of help. Someone to make Dirk the #2 option or 1)b. Someone that can get him open looks but also take over the game.

Kidd Karma · 05-25-2010, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

No Jefferson would not make us any sort of favorite imo. I also like Kaman. But We're gonna need major help. Lebron or Wade kind of help. Someone to make Dirk the #2 option or 1)b. Someone that can get him open looks but also take over the game.

True, someone has to get the ball to Jefferson.

mavs777 · 05-25-2010, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

What? He's a center. Well, but he damn sure would be one here. Joe Johnson or Iggy added to this team without keeping Butler isn't making us real contenders. Idk why Minnesota would let a stud like Jefferson go, but he > anyone else not Wade or Lebron. Especially > Bosh who I am quickly becoming hateful towards. In fact he shouldn't even be on this list because he's a doucher... and doesn't wanna play here.

CrazyBoy · 05-25-2010, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

What? He's a center. Well, but he damn sure would be one here. Joe Johnson or Iggy added to this team without keeping Butler isn't making us real contenders. Idk why Minnesota would let a stud like Jefferson go, but he > anyone else not Wade or Lebron. Especially > Bosh who I am quickly becoming hateful towards. In fact he shouldn't even be on this list because he's a doucher... and doesn't wanna play here.

wtf? hes a power forward and will always be one.
dont just repeat everything espn said.
he is _no_ legit center... he cant defend lowpost. and thats what centers do.

lets compare him to dirk at this age... dirk made 10 rebounds - jefferson 9, dirk made 1,4 blocks - jefferson 1.3
is dirk/jefferson a center? hell no
can dirk/jefferson defend low post? hell no

i give you the credit that he would be our center, like brand would sub in there. but we still need a legit center like haywood to do the most parts. jefferson has some nice athleticism and is very versatile. but that doesnt make him a perfect center

PS: someone mentioned it already - the wolves actually played better when jefferson was on the bench

SMC0007 · 05-25-2010, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyBoy

wtf? hes a power forward and will always be one.
dont just repeat everything espn said.
he is _no_ legit center... he cant defend lowpost. and thats what centers do.

lets compare him to dirk at this age... dirk made 10 rebounds - jefferson 9, dirk made 1,4 blocks - jefferson 1.3
is dirk/jefferson a center? hell no
can dirk/jefferson defend low post? hell no

i give you the credit that he would be our center, like brand would sub in there. but we still need a legit center like haywood to do the most parts. jefferson has some nice athleticism and is very versatile. but that doesnt make him a perfect center

PS: someone mentioned it already - the wolves actually played better when jefferson was on the bench

Why are you comparing him to Dirk? That was mistake number 1, that comparison is stupid. Compare him to Damp or Haywood, or both put together. He has low post skills that we have never had. Even in a down year last year he is a huge upgrade at anything we have had on the blocks.

Repeat everything ESPN said? Idk wtf you are talking about.

You give me the credit that he would be center here, like Brand would sub in. What does that mean? Brand also plays Center? So what? You're not gonna ever have a lock down center defensively. Even D Howard hasn't locked down the paint in this series vs Boston. I would rather make the other center work trying to stop Jefferson than have Damp on the floor who can't score or create anything offensively and doesn't exactly shut things down defensively.

P.S. The Wolves actually played better with their best player (by far) off the floor. Ok. Yeah, well if I recall correctly the only time the Mavs beat the CAVS was when Dirk wasn't playing. See how ridiculous that sounds.

Thespiralgoeson · 05-25-2010, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Why are you comparing him to Dirk? That was mistake number 1, that comparison is stupid. Compare him to Damp or Haywood, or both put together. He has low post skills that we have never had. Even in a down year last year he is a huge upgrade at anything we have had on the blocks.

Repeat everything ESPN said? Idk wtf you are talking about.

You give me the credit that he would be center here, like Brand would sub in. What does that mean? Brand also plays Center? So what? You're not gonna ever have a lock down center defensively. Even D Howard hasn't locked down the paint in this series vs Boston. I would rather make the other center work trying to stop Jefferson than have Damp on the floor who can't score or create anything offensively and doesn't exactly shut things down defensively.

P.S. The Wolves actually played better with their best player (by far) off the floor. Ok. Yeah, well if I recall correctly the only time the Mavs beat the CAVS was when Dirk wasn't playing. See how ridiculous that sounds.

He has low-post skills, but the guy is NOT a "career center" as you described him earlier. You can argue whether or not he would be a good option at center here, but that is not his natural position. Call me old-fashioned, but I just can't stand undersized centers, or rather, forwards playing out of position. And that's the reason I'm just not interested in Jefferson, Bosh, Amare, Boozer or anyone else who's not a high-scoring 2/3. They will get you killed defensively.

CrazyBoy · 05-25-2010, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Why are you comparing him to Dirk? That was mistake number 1, that comparison is stupid. Compare him to Damp or Haywood, or both put together. He has low post skills that we have never had. Even in a down year last year he is a huge upgrade at anything we have had on the blocks.

mistake? dude... are you following the mavs since more then 3 years?

anyway ... jefferson is a power forward - period.
what i've done is plain and simple: i compared a power forward out of position with another power forward out of postion... guess what - dirk is stated as a PF/C ... he even said before this season he would play some center again(they only had dampier at this point, who wasnt healty) like he did in his mid 20s with all the bradley/eschmeyer/diop-failures and where he needed to play the 5 instead of the guys above.
at that time, when dirk played the 5, he had similar stats like jefferson now(even better ones like i stated) and similar athletic... man i even see the same lowpost moves on them. BUT - both can _not_ defend if their lifes are at stake. i've watched enough minnesota games to underline this opinion, in fact: the wolves played BETTER with a real center on the court and jefferson on the bench or at the 4 (in nearly every game he was missed - they played better)... that are some heavy facts dude

and no: he would be no upgrade at anything we have. haywood is indeed a very good lowpost scorer - just watch how he did on his old team. but after all those years with lousy center there seems to be no room in any trainer-playbook for some lowpost plays with the mavericks - you think that would change with a blink of an eye with jefferson arrival?
lets stick with haywood and create some plays with him, remember: he came in the mid-season and had zero prepartion time with the mavs. keep in consideration that haywood is a 10/10 guy this season that actually can clear the paint and defend the hell outter all those bigman teams. even dwight howard gave haywood the credits to be a top center in the league. statswise, haywood is in the top10
i rather take brendan with 7 points less per game while beeing a defensive-stoper then a jefferson who only hits around 4X% compared to brendans 56% hitrate in the paint while jefferson got the ball as double as much as haywood. interesting or ?

Quote:

You give me the credit that he would be center here, like Brand would sub in. What does that mean? Brand also plays Center? So what? You're not gonna ever have a lock down center defensively. Even D Howard hasn't locked down the paint in this series vs Boston. I would rather make the other center work trying to stop Jefferson than have Damp on the floor who can't score or create anything offensively and doesn't exactly shut things down defensively.

seems you dont get the point. even if we sign brand with the #2 from the sixers. brand would never start... same with jefferson. both would come from the bench being the players who substitute for dirk at the 4 or haywood at the 5. by all means you have to keep sure that jefferson and dirk arent at the same time on the court. otherwise you have a defend-wise disaster in the low post zone. its enough that we have a dirk who cant defend and a kidd who cant defend quick guards. we need at least _someone_ who can to it: keeping the big mans out of the zone(worked pretty well) and stopping the quick guards on their way driving to the paint. we cant give haywood enough credit for how well he has done fixing the liability of those two spots alone.

conclusion? as long as we have haywood:
no to jefferson as a starting center.
yes to jefferson from the bench

dont get me wrong jefferson IS a beast. but i doubt he'll fit in the mavs-system. if we lose haywood somehow, we have to rethink the jefferson idea

i hope that comment wasnt to harsh overall... i just want to make clear that we have one of the rare-centers out there that truly can be named as one. not all those Power forwards pretending to be a center.
i desperately hope we resign haywood since we dont land a good center that often (above i named all the failures). we all know he isnt a bogut, oden(healthy) or a howard. but hes close to them - we wont find a better one out there while searching for mr. superstar too

mavs777 · 05-25-2010, 11:47 AM

Jefferson is a fine 5 if backed up by a 5 with size and strength like haywood, jefferson would be a very good piece to the puzzle but even with him we are still 1 piece away from being a legit title contender (a legit 2 guard) but it doesn't have to be a star at the 2 I'd settle for just a knock down 3 point shooter that can really defend like a raja bell type

Mavericks Rockets Fan · 05-25-2010, 01:24 PM

As much as I would love to have Jefferson, why do the T-Wolves trade him? He is young and is their best player.

mavs777 · 05-25-2010, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavericks Rockets Fan

As much as I would love to have Jefferson, why do the T-Wolves trade him? He is young and is their best player.

Love is the better all around player than Jefferson, and Jefferson and Love like to work at the same spots and don't work together

Kidd Karma · 05-25-2010, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

Love is the better all around player than Jefferson, and Jefferson and Love like to work at the same spots and don't work together

Love definitely is the better all around player, but his skill sets are not the domineering type that you get from say a Duncan, it maybe good enough for college, but not on a full time basis in the NBA. Jefferson does one thing well and at times he is dominant and that's score on the block. But I think you need to choose one and build a team around him. If you pick jeffeson, you need to surround him with shooters, you pick Love, you surround him with slasher and scorers.

SMC0007 · 05-25-2010, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

Love is the better all around player than Jefferson, and Jefferson and Love like to work at the same spots and don't work together

Respectfully disagree.

ocelot_ark · 05-25-2010, 10:27 PM

If we could somehow turn Butler, spare parts (not including roddy), and DUST into:

1 of Lebron, Wade, JJ, Iggy
1 of Kaman, Bosh, Jefferson

Yeah - I'm down for that. I'm a big fan of Kaman's game. I've always been impressed with his low post offense. He seems tough'ish. And we know he gets along well with Dirk. Sounds like the exact center we've been missing.

CrazyBoy · 05-26-2010, 05:22 AM

lol SMC0007 thats ridiculous

i give you published statistics that say hawood is the better center, i underline my arguments with proofen facts, giving references from the best centers in the league who say haywood is a top center and you still cant find arguments that favors your point of view. everyone here in this thread is saying that jefferson is no center but a _power forward_ and plays out of position... still you want to add him to the roster as a main center. dude... im seriously think someone might call you an ignorant basketball noob

SMC0007 · 05-26-2010, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyBoy

lol SMC0007 thats ridiculous

i give you published statistics that say hawood is the better center, i underline my arguments with proofen facts, giving references from the best centers in the league who say haywood is a top center and you still cant find arguments that favors your point of view. everyone here in this thread is saying that jefferson is no center but a _power forward_ and plays out of position... still you want to add him to the roster as a main center. dude... im seriously think someone might call you an ignorant basketball noob

I underlined all your grammatical failures just in case.... I imagine that the people on this board that have valued opinions have already dismissed you because of that alone.

You haven't "proofen" anything and haven't provided any "published statistics". You have given opinions and really bad examples. Such as comparing him to Dirk.

CrazyBoy · 05-26-2010, 11:03 AM

yeah sounds right - since i made some grammatical errors, all my facts and arguments are wrong.... yikes
you want references?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...jeffeal01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...haywobr01.html
compare those facts i stated out above. or just hear what everybody is saying about jefferson...

im sorry my english isnt fluent, its only the 4th best language im capable of using in a reasonable way - unless you are able to talk to me in german, spanish, french(all of those 3 i can handle better then english) and a bit of russian you have to accept that im a foreigner who's trying to express myself. so you are a native speaker - you must be pretty proud of yourself pointing out the errors of others.
ok then, i gave you 4 languages you can try to communicate with with - which do you prefer ?
or the other way around: which other languages except of english can you use?

SMC0007 · 05-26-2010, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyBoy

yeah sounds right - since i made some grammatical errors, all my facts and arguments are wrong.... yikes
you want references?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...jeffeal01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...haywobr01.html
compare those facts i stated out above. or just hear what everybody is saying about jefferson...

im sorry my english isnt fluent, its only the 4th best language im capable of using in a reasonable way - unless you are able to talk to me in german, spanish, french(all of those 3 i can handle better then english) and a bit of russian you have to accept that im a foreigner who's trying to express myself. so you are a native speaker - you must be pretty proud of yourself pointing out the errors of others.
ok then, i gave you 4 languages you can try to communicate with with - which do you prefer ?
or the other way around: which other languages except of english can you use?

Hey thanks for the cool links...

wtf

heres another one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning_kruger_effect

mac222b · 05-26-2010, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyBoy

yeah sounds right - since i made some grammatical errors, all my facts and arguments are wrong.... yikes
you want references?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...jeffeal01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...haywobr01.html
compare those facts i stated out above. or just hear what everybody is saying about jefferson...

im sorry my english isnt fluent, its only the 4th best language im capable of using in a reasonable way - unless you are able to talk to me in german, spanish, french(all of those 3 i can handle better then english) and a bit of russian you have to accept that im a foreigner who's trying to express myself. so you are a native speaker - you must be pretty proud of yourself pointing out the errors of others.
ok then, i gave you 4 languages you can try to communicate with with - which do you prefer ?
or the other way around: which other languages except of english can you use?

no worries dude. some people around here just like to start static. your english is actually quite good.

KINGBEEF · 05-26-2010, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyBoy

yeah sounds right - since i made some grammatical errors, all my facts and arguments are wrong.... yikes
you want references?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...jeffeal01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...haywobr01.html
compare those facts i stated out above. or just hear what everybody is saying about jefferson...

im sorry my english isnt fluent, its only the 4th best language im capable of using in a reasonable way - unless you are able to talk to me in german, spanish, french(all of those 3 i can handle better then english) and a bit of russian you have to accept that im a foreigner who's trying to express myself. so you are a native speaker - you must be pretty proud of yourself pointing out the errors of others.
ok then, i gave you 4 languages you can try to communicate with with - which do you prefer ?
or the other way around: which other languages except of english can you use?

i understand german, just got back from germany on sunday.

CrazyBoy · 05-26-2010, 01:10 PM

you just proofed how stupid you are

SMC0007 · 05-26-2010, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyBoy

you just proofed how stupid you are

And you just gave me a new quote for my sig!

Mav Addict · 05-26-2010, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyBoy

you just proofed how stupid you are

You have got to be kidding me....please say you are being sarcastic.....

LOL@ the tags

CrazyBoy · 05-26-2010, 04:02 PM

oh wow SMC... i wrote proofed instead of proved. blame me

damn, you invented some nice mechanisms how to ignore the opinion of others.
you propose jefferson could be our center and he can replace haywood.
now i come in with digits out of the basketballreference universe, stating facts that demonstrate that your beloved player ISNT a center in fact he is a power forward that plays out of position. after that i made a comparison of dirk who played center for quite some time in his mid 20s(due to infurys of bradley, eschmeyer and diop), like al jefferson is doing it now. just that both cant defend at all. i mean, everyone on this thread coincides that jefferson cant defend like a center should do. you are the only one that still holds onto him
i gave you the stat-numbers which say that they both done quite the same on the court, only dirk were better overall at that time. i also quoted the responses of howard in which he express how good haywood is.
in conclusion i gave you the links that cleary say that haywood is the better center then jefferson. on top you can also check espn-stats to confirm it.

and what is your response?

"you made typos - i dont listen to what you say"

yeah - sure thing. instead of putting some arguments to your proposition you simply dont listen to the facts of professionals (basketballreferences) and nba players (howard)

btw. my offer still holds: we can discuss this topic in french, german or spanish(and maybe in tourist-russian-style) if you speak those languages.
unless like you im an adult, you can be sure that i wont make fun of the typos from others when they didnt speak in there native language

@mac222 - thank you very much

Underdog · 05-26-2010, 04:15 PM

Is it possible for a mod to delete the last page of this thread?

jthig32 · 05-26-2010, 04:48 PM

Overstatements aside (Hawyood a better low post scorer than Jefferson????), CrazyBoy is absolutely correct that Jefferson would be an awful pairing next to Dirk.

I'm just not really sure how anyone could follow this team for the last decade and be ok with the idea of playing Dirk next to a defensively average (at best) undersized center for the majority of a game.

It.just.won't.work.

SMC0007 · 05-26-2010, 05:00 PM

You might as well forget about defense being key. As long as Dirk is here were never gonna be a feared team defensively inside unless you have a defensive player of the year at center, then it is most likely at the cost of offense, like with Damp minus the defensive poy. So then once again you have zero low post offense. If you have a presence down low offensively (Jefferson type) and have someone to come off the bench to help sure up the D when needed like Haywood or Damp were in much better position. Still not good enough to win it all imo. But if you end up with a guy with the talent of Jefferson and attempt to bring him off the bench, you're fired.

Why get caught up by the minutes played in a game at this point?