No one to blame but Dirk

[Rhylan]

We'll never trade Dirk. Because if we do, he'll snap out of it and become Mr. Pissed/King of the Basketball Universe, just like Nash did.

The real solution is to stop drafting guys who require histrionics and being "dissed" by an owner to get a fire lit under their asses.

Dirk is on probation with me.. unless one year from now he looks like a new man, I'll be done with him as the unquestioned star & leader of this team. I'll still be just as big a fan, but I'll be a fan with significantly lower expectations and less faith.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by Rhylan

We'll never trade Dirk. Because if we do, he'll snap out of it and become Mr. Pissed/King of the Basketball Universe, just like Nash did.

The real solution is to stop drafting guys who require histrionics and being "dissed" by an owner to get a fire lit under their asses.

No kidding. I had that exact same thought cross my mind when I was tossing the idea of trading Dirk around in my head. He'll probably become Steve Nash II and win 5 straight MVPs to rub our nose in it.

[MeanGreen]

Originally Posted by NYMavFan

I don't post here much. In fact, I haven't posted in over 4 years mostly because I find a couple of high volume posters on here pretty uninformed and irritating. I have been lurking tho so I'm pretty familiar with the new faces.

But I've decided to post tonight because I am freaking disgusted.

Dirk was the difference in this series. He played like a pussy for 98% of the series and is the sole reason that this happened. He didn't even have to play like an MVP for the mavs to win this series. He just had to play decently... aggressively. He didn't.

After last year, I was disgusted at the NBA because the mavs were robbed, plain and simple. After the season, I swore I was done with the NBA. I came back this season though because I wanted justice. I thought it might happen. But obviously, it didn't.

Now what? Dirk is going to live with the stigma of a choker for the rest of his career. He'll be known as the worst MVP choice in the history of the NBA. Is he going to bounce back from this? Will the Mavs? I'd like to think so, but honestly, I don't think so.

I'll be honest about one more thing. I'm pretty much one of the biggest Mavs fans there is. I've been around since 1980. But I've never liked Dirk. If he weren't a Mav, I wouldn't even root for him. He is a flawed superstar. He'll never be a gamer because he's limited physically, and he's soft mentally. I'd like to see him prove me wrong. But I don't think he will.

Next season? I dunno. I'm just disgusted. I hate that Nellie gets the last laugh. He doesn't deserve it. He's a quitter and has a loser mentality.

You know who I feel the worst for, though? Mark Cuban. He's the one that deserves the championship the most... he's been right all along, and he has nothing to show for it. Proof that there is no justice in this world.

Excellent post. I'm right there with you.
You're asking for all hell to break loose when you talk bad about Dirk on this board.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by MeanGreen

Excellent post. I'm right there with you.
You're asking for all hell to break loose when you talk bad about Dirk on this board.

Another lame poster.

[NYMavFan]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Another lame poster.

Why don't you just do a massive search for all the posters who have said something bad about Dirk and put all their names into a list? Then you can tell us we're weak and lame all in one post. Much more efficient.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by NYMavFan

Why don't you just do a massive search for all the posters who have said something bad about Dirk and put all their names into a list? Then you can tell us we're weak and lame all in one post. Much more efficient.

Just thought I'd give you a litte of what the mavs and dirk are getting. You stink, you are lame, don't even show up.

[rabbitproof]

No way around it.

Dirk plays his normal game, we're on for Game 7.

Guy has to take control.

EDIT: Disagree with title though. He's not the only one to blame but if he isn't the primary guy for Game 6, you're fooling yourself.

[MFFL]

If your best player cannot score on his own (either in the post or driving) then you need another player to pick up the load.

Dirk can't consistently post up other players and he can't consistently drive. So we need other players to do it. Dirk is fine - we just need another threat.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by NYMavFan

I don't post here much. In fact, I haven't posted in over 4 years mostly because I find a couple of high volume posters on here pretty uninformed and irritating. I have been lurking tho so I'm pretty familiar with the new faces.

Good your postings are disgusting. Weak and wimpy.

[NYMavFan]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Good your postings are disgusting. Weak and wimpy.

Thanks for proving my point.

I used to lump you in with Murphy, but he's actually toned it down and gotten a lot better over the years.

You're still the same, though--personal attacks, no brains, no substance.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by NYMavFan

Thanks for proving my point.

I used to lump you in with Murphy, but he's actually toned it down and gotten a lot better over the years.

You're still the same, though--personal attacks, no brains, no substance.

Right..you are really bringing the intelligence here. I miss all of the analysis your 230 posts have brought.

[NYMavFan]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Right..you are really bringing the intelligence here. I miss all of the analysis your 230 posts have brought.

Dude, you're a moron. Glad to see that you value volume over substance. Have you added a damned thing to this thread?

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by NYMavFan

Dude, you're a moron. Glad to see that you value volume over substance. Have you added a damned thing to this thread?

Only the accurate description of your posts.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Ooh ooh, me next!

[Murphy3]

edit...

[mavsjunkie]

I still like Dirk, but in order to penetrate a zone, we need a big time down-low scorer (something we've always needed), we need more athleticism (high flying leapers and shooters who can defend, GS has a ton of them, why can't we get some?)

We also need a slasher, someone around 6'5 ish and up. and the last thing we need is a couple of lights out 3 point shooters.

Dirk is the only one on this team that can bring us a big man down low who can score. So it's time to sacrifice if we ever want to win a champions hip.

We have a superman team, unfortunately, our kryptonite is the zone.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by mavsjunkie

I still like Dirk, but in order to penitrate a zone, we need a big time down-low scorer (something we've always needed), we need more athleticism (high flying leapers and shooters who can defend, GS has a ton of them, why can't we get some?)

We also need a slasher, someone around 6'5 ish and up. and the last thing we need is a couple of lights out 3 point shooters.

Dirk is the only one on this team that can bring us a big man down low who can score. So it's time to sacrifice if we ever want to win a champions hip.

We have a superman team, unfortunately, our kryptonite is the zone.

Tell me this:
What is a big time low post scorer going to do when:
1. he's double teamed half the time before he gets the ball
2. when he gets the ball, he's almost always immediately doubled
and
when he passes, there's never anyone making their way to the bucket other than Diop.
and
when he passes it out, he's passing it on the outside to a group of guys that really aren't all that great at shooting threes with the exception of Terry.

It's not that simple.. unfortunately.

Now, if you add a big time low post scoring threat WITH Dirk, you have something special. But if Dirk was simply a big time low post scoring threat, you'd still have most of the same problems.

[kingmalaki]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Tell me this:
What is a big time low post scorer going to do when:
1. he's double teamed half the time before he gets the ball
2. when he gets the ball, he's almost always immediately doubled
and
when he passes, there's never anyone making their way to the bucket other than Diop.
and
when he passes it out, he's passing it on the outside to a group of guys that really aren't all that great at shooting threes with the exception of Terry.

It's not that simple.. unfortunately.

Now, if you add a big time low post scoring threat WITH Dirk, you have something special. But if Dirk was simply a big time low post scoring threat, you'd still have most of the same problems.

A) Demand the ball.
B) Attack.
C) Post up.

Dirk did all of those things for 1.5 games or so. It just seems like he lost his confidence as things started to go bad. He didn't even seem like he wanted the rock....

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

A) Demand the ball.
B) Attack.
C) Post up.

Dirk did all of those things for 1.5 games or so. It just seems like he lost his confidence as things started to go bad. He didn't even seem like he wanted the rock....

Ok...So, you're getting doubled before you get teh ball and you demand the ball. Umm, that does nothing.
You attack when getting doubled by two quicker players when you're actually able to receive an entry pass. Well, most likely you either turn the ball over or are left with a bad shot. Or, you attack and then pass out because of the double... which is what happened most of the series. What does that do if the Mavs don't have anyone cutting to the bucket and few guys beyond the arc that are truly threats from out there?

[kingmalaki]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Ok...So, you're getting doubled before you get teh ball and you demand the ball. Umm, that does nothing.
You attack when getting doubled by two quicker players when you're actually able to receive an entry pass. Well, most likely you either turn the ball over or are left with a bad shot. Or, you attack and then pass out because of the double... which is what happened most of the series. What does that do if the Mavs don't have anyone cutting to the bucket and few guys beyond the arc that are truly threats from out there?

Dirk did all of that in the few instances of game 4 (first qtr). The main difference between that Dirk and the Dirk from the remainder of the series is:

A) That Dirk was more aggressive and didn't wait for the double to come. I don't know where you are getting this constant double before he got the rock from.

B) That Dirk was closer to posting, as opposed to standing out on the perimiter.

Additionally, when your shot isn't falling and you are a big-man you can still get offensive boards to get some easier points.

Everything you mentioned (the constant doubles, all the attention) is something that most superstar players go through on a nightly basis. Dirk just had to be as aggressive as he was in the regular season. I think his confidence was just shook after a few misses. For a superstar, there is no excuse for 8 points in an elimination game.

[wmbwinn]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Tell me this:
What is a big time low post scorer going to do when:
1. he's double teamed half the time before he gets the ball
2. when he gets the ball, he's almost always immediately doubled
and
when he passes, there's never anyone making their way to the bucket other than Diop.
and
when he passes it out, he's passing it on the outside to a group of guys that really aren't all that great at shooting threes with the exception of Terry.

It's not that simple.. unfortunately.

Now, if you add a big time low post scoring threat WITH Dirk, you have something special. But if Dirk was simply a big time low post scoring threat, you'd still have most of the same problems.

Agreed. My earlier points were that Dallas needs a low post threat to play with Dirk. I don't think we have to have a superstar low post player. We just need someone capable of punishing a zone when that zone doubles Dirk. We need someone capable of punishing the Heat when Zo doubles on Dirk and ignores the paint. A role player about 6'10" or taller who can score in the low post and rebound and play average defense would set the Mavs up for nearly invincible season.

[Murphy3]

This board actually wants people to think beyond what the uninformed radio or TV guys say. The simple thing to say is "it's all on Dirk". Yes, you can say that, but you're pretty damn stupid if you do. Yes, Dirk should take alot of blame, but the answer to the Mavs problems go much deeper than that. You have to examine why the Warriors were able to slow down Dirk. You have to examine what the Mavs could have done to counter it.. What dirk could have done to counter it. Some of you hear some dumbass on the radio say something and come in here and post it as if it has the slightest bit of relevance (or relevence.. if slept since taking my last spelling test). Quite frankly, I didn't hear a person on the radio today that was truly able to analyze what went on...where the problems were. No one in Dallas had a clue, that's for sure.

[kingmalaki]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

This board actually wants people to think beyond what the uninformed radio or TV guys say. The simple thing to say is "it's all on Dirk". Yes, you can say that, but you're pretty damn stupid if you do. Yes, Dirk should take alot of blame, but the answer to the Mavs problems go much deeper than that. You have to examine why the Warriors were able to slow down Dirk. You have to examine what the Mavs could have done to counter it.. What dirk could have done to counter it. Some of you hear some dumbass on the radio say something and come in here and post it as if it has the slightest bit of relevance (or relevence.. if slept since taking my last spelling test). Quite frankly, I didn't hear a person on the radio today that was truly able to analyze what went on...where the problems were. No one in Dallas had a clue, that's for sure.

As far as slowing down Dirk, all of the reports that I read focused on his lack of aggression. That's all on him, not the Warriors. A true star doesn't go through halves taking 2-3 shots in elimination games. Kobe caught much flack for this in Game 7 last year as well, although for different reasons.

The Warriors aren't that great defensively. Dirk just wasn't in attack mode. Just my opinion....but I noticed passion and aggressiveness from other Mavs...just not the leader.

[NYMavFan]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

This board actually wants people to think beyond what the uninformed radio or TV guys say. The simple thing to say is "it's all on Dirk". Yes, you can say that, but you're pretty damn stupid if you do.

Murphy, not looking to start a fight here, but who are you to say what this board wants? And what makes you think that you and your basketball knowledge are oh so insightful while everyone on tv and radio is uninformed and stupid? On top of that, what makes you think you know more about this team than me?

Look, I titled this thread 'no one to blame but dirk' to grab attention and to emphasize my point. Any idiot can see that MANY things went wrong with the Mavs to cause this to happen. But the ROOT CAUSE for the series defeat was Dirk's play. You could've fixed every other thing wrong with the Mavs (Avery's coaching mistakes, JT's play, etc.) but I seriously doubt the series would've gone the other way if Dirk still played as passively as he did. I give credit to the Warriors--they were playing out of their minds. It would've taken a lot to beat a team playing like that, but it could've been done if Dirk had played aggressively. For whatever reason, he just didn't.

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Yes, Dirk should take alot of blame, but the answer to the Mavs problems go much deeper than that. You have to examine why the Warriors were able to slow down Dirk. You have to examine what the Mavs could have done to counter it.. What dirk could have done to counter it.

I'll tell you what Dirk could've done. I've said it a million times, and I'll say it again. HE COULD'VE BEEN AGGRESSIVE. I'm not saying he would've split double teams and scored 30 points by doing this. In fact, that's not what would've happened at all given the Warriors' strategy against him. BUT all he had to do was make his presence felt on the court, to let the Warriors know that they were going to have to work hard to take him out of his game. Unless you are blind or the biggest homer on the face of the planet, you HAD to see that Dirk wasn't fighting for position, wasn't demanding the ball, and wasn't making quick moves to put pressure on the D when he actually got the ball. His body language was HORRIBLE the entire game... it basically screamed "I'm a f'n pussy! Push me around cuz I don't have the balls to fight back!"

He CONCEDED to the Warriors and LET them take him out of the game. He gave up. And there's just no excuse for that.

[NYMavFan]

Originally Posted by NYMavFan

Murphy, not looking to start a fight here, but who are you to say what this board wants? And what makes you think that you and your basketball knowledge are oh so insightful while everyone on tv and radio is uninformed and stupid? On top of that, what makes you think you know more about this team than me?

Look, I titled this thread 'no one to blame but dirk' to grab attention and to emphasize my point. Any idiot can see that MANY things went wrong with the Mavs to cause this to happen. But the ROOT CAUSE for the series defeat was Dirk's play. You could've fixed every other thing wrong with the Mavs (Avery's coaching mistakes, JT's play, etc.) but I seriously doubt the series would've gone the other way if Dirk still played as passively as he did. I give credit to the Warriors--they were playing out of their minds. It would've taken a lot to beat a team playing like that, but it could've been done if Dirk had played aggressively. For whatever reason, he just didn't.

I'll tell you what Dirk could've done. I've said it a million times, and I'll say it again. HE COULD'VE BEEN AGGRESSIVE. I'm not saying he would've split double teams and scored 30 points by doing this. In fact, that's not what would've happened at all given the Warriors' strategy against him. BUT all he had to do was make his presence felt on the court, to let the Warriors know that they were going to have to work hard to take him out of his game. Unless you are blind or the biggest homer on the face of the planet, you HAD to see that Dirk wasn't fighting for position, wasn't demanding the ball, and wasn't making quick moves to put pressure on the D when he actually got the ball. His body language was HORRIBLE the entire game... it basically screamed "I'm a f'n pussy! Push me around cuz I don't have the balls to fight back!"

He CONCEDED to the Warriors and LET them take him out of the game. He gave up. And there's just no excuse for that.

First of all, I want to go on record saying that I don't think Dirk is a choker. I think he has some serious mental deficiencies, but I don't think choking is his problem. It's more of an issue with his attitude. He simply doesn't have the fearlessness, the nerve, the aggressiveness that a man with his level of skill should have. What was he thinking saying what he said before game 4? Why did he seem to give up during game 6?

Also, I'm curious as to why none of the Dirk defenders had a reasonable response to my earlier post above. I can only assume that they can't come up with a good one because they can't deny the truth.

Look, I don't have the spare time to post in high volume like many of the posters here, but I felt strongly enough about this to take some time to do it. I hope some people here are looking to have a reasonable discussion about this instead of engaging in childish name-calling (that means you, dude)

[kingmalaki]

Do you guys have any room under the cap and any nice draft picks this summer? Unlike most squads you have some nice assets outside of your "superstar" to get some help. Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of low-post options out there....

[joemoeschmoe]

Dirk played a poor series for who he normally is and I think he should have shot less down the stretch exactly like he stated after game 4. He was being a monster on the boards at that point with 11 rebs, 2 steals, 1.5 blocks, and 4-5 assists, 1 turnover a game. If he shoots 12 shots, but makes 7 of them along with 5 free throws with the rest of those numbers while passing out of double teams all day, then thats OK. In fact its great, and its what Duncan gets praised for all the time. "Having a huge impact on the game."

I love Avery, but I think he made a mistake by telling Dirk he has to force it like an MVP should after Dirk came out and said after game 4 that he was fine not scoring. Whatever, fuck the media and what everybody else thinks, Dirk had no obligation to force shots because a low value shot (approximately chance of make X point value of shot) is still a bad decision. Also, the offense was stalled because the Mavs guards are poor at post entry passes and the Mavs were spending most of their shot clock to get it to one of the 1 on 1 dudes. Still, Dirk even missed the ones he normally makes and Golden State played excellent defense (they're hands are so fast!), so that he still takes some blame. But nowhere near 100% .

Last year, he was awesome during the playoffs (I think he's getting his MVP more for how he played during the playoffs), until he had a bad 3 games in the finals after he dominated the Suns and the Spurs, then he sucks. Then he's awesome during the regular season, now he sucks. Such short sightedness. If he wins a ring within a few seasons, everyone will suddenly forget just like with Peyton. I look for the Mavs to have a worse regular season, but better post season next year.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by joemoeschmoe

Dirk played a poor series for who he normally is and I think he should have shot less down the stretch exactly like he stated after game 4. He was being a monster on the boards at that point with 11 rebs, 2 steals, 1.5 blocks, and 4-5 assists, 1 turnover a game. If he shoots 12 shots, but makes 7 of them along with 5 free throws with the rest of those numbers while passing out of double teams all day, then thats OK. In fact its great, and its what Duncan gets praised for all the time. "Having a huge impact on the game."

I love Avery, but I think he made a mistake by telling Dirk he has to force it like an MVP should after Dirk came out and said after game 4 that he was fine not scoring. Whatever, fuck the media and what everybody else thinks, Dirk had no obligation to force shots because a low value shot (approximately chance of make X point value of shot) is still a bad decision. Also, the offense was stalled because the Mavs guards are poor at post entry passes and the Mavs were spending most of their shot clock to get it to one of the 1 on 1 dudes. Still, Dirk even missed the ones he normally makes and Golden State played excellent defense (they're hands are so fast!), so that he still takes some blame. But nowhere near 100% .

Last year, he was awesome during the playoffs (I think he's getting his MVP more for how he played during the playoffs), until he had a bad 3 games in the finals after he dominated the Suns and the Spurs, then he sucks. Then he's awesome during the regular season, now he sucks. Such short sightedness. If he wins a ring within a few seasons, everyone will suddenly forget just like with Peyton. I look for the Mavs to have a worse regular season, but better post season next year.

Excellent post... It's odd that Dirk can't get away with having the same types of games that Tim Duncan has. If Dirk shoot 47-50% from the floor, scores 18-20 points and grabs 12 boards, it's a subpar game.. he's not aggressive enough.. he's timid... he's not calling for the ball...

Now, with that being said, Dirk wasn't good enough in this series by any stretch of the imagination. Even with what the Warriors were doing defensively, Dirk needed to be better. He needed to be more selfish at times. He needed to take the contested shot at times instead of passing to Diop no matter how close to the rim Diop was. And honestly, at times, Dirk simply needed to not shoot instead of forcing it.

The Warriors had a great plan. The Mavs probably didn't have the personnel counter the Warriors plan. Even if Dirk shoots 47% from the floor in this series, the Mavs lose. They were going to limit Dirk come hell or high water and make someone else beat them.

[kingmalaki]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Excellent post... It's odd that Dirk can't get away with having the same types of games that Tim Duncan has. If Dirk shoot 47-50% from the floor, scores 18-20 points and grabs 12 boards, it's a subpar game.. he's not aggressive enough.. he's timid... he's not calling for the ball...

I think there are three main reasons for this:

A) Duncan has a post game and Dirk doesn't.

B) Duncan is an All-NBA defender, so he can be more effective if he isn't scoring.

C) He's already led his team to 3 titles .

If Dirk shot 47-50% in this series then I think Dallas wins. However, he shot in the 30's and that's a big dip from his usual output. I think Duncan would catch flack too if he dropped 15% points in a series where they lost to a #8 seed.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

I think there are three main reasons for this:

A) Duncan has a post game and Dirk doesn't.

B) Duncan is an All-NBA defender, so he can be more effective if he isn't scoring.

C) He's already led his team to 3 titles .

If Dirk shot 47-50% in this series then I think Dallas wins. However, he shot in the 30's and that's a big dip from his usual output. I think Duncan would catch flack too if he dropped 15% points in a series where they lost to a #8 seed.

So, what's your point about the post game? That in no way answers anything to do with my post.
Yes, you have a good point.. Although Duncan's defensive abilities are greatly reduced in the playoffs especially when matching up against the Suns or the Mavs.. He can be all defense all he wants against Dampier.. that still wouldn't have a huge impact on the series.

And yeah, he does already have three titles. I can't argue with there.

As for Dirk needing to receive grief over this series.. I completely agree. Dirk should be raked over the coals a bit..as should the rest of the team and the coaching staff. I just think it's gone a bit far already with some people.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by joemoeschmoe

Dirk played a poor series for who he normally is and I think he should have shot less down the stretch exactly like he stated after game 4. He was being a monster on the boards at that point with 11 rebs, 2 steals, 1.5 blocks, and 4-5 assists, 1 turnover a game. If he shoots 12 shots, but makes 7 of them along with 5 free throws with the rest of those numbers while passing out of double teams all day, then thats OK. In fact its great, and its what Duncan gets praised for all the time. "Having a huge impact on the game."

I love Avery, but I think he made a mistake by telling Dirk he has to force it like an MVP should after Dirk came out and said after game 4 that he was fine not scoring. Whatever, fuck the media and what everybody else thinks, Dirk had no obligation to force shots because a low value shot (approximately chance of make X point value of shot) is still a bad decision. Also, the offense was stalled because the Mavs guards are poor at post entry passes and the Mavs were spending most of their shot clock to get it to one of the 1 on 1 dudes. Still, Dirk even missed the ones he normally makes and Golden State played excellent defense (they're hands are so fast!), so that he still takes some blame. But nowhere near 100% .

Last year, he was awesome during the playoffs (I think he's getting his MVP more for how he played during the playoffs), until he had a bad 3 games in the finals after he dominated the Suns and the Spurs, then he sucks. Then he's awesome during the regular season, now he sucks. Such short sightedness. If he wins a ring within a few seasons, everyone will suddenly forget just like with Peyton. I look for the Mavs to have a worse regular season, but better post season next year.

Another great post by just an average joe.

[Murphy3]

I think you're pretty much wrong. Dirk posted repeatedly throughout the series and was doubled much of the time without the ball. When Dirk moved to the perimeter, don't you think that was probably an AJ decision? And as for going to the offensive boards, Dirk did that repeatedly throughout the series. He averaged over 4 a game.

As for superstars being doubled.. Yeah, some go through that quite a bit. But, most aren't doubled without the ball. And if you want to talk about superstars, well, most of them have a superstar-like compadre with them if they are to win titles. The Mavs have no one close. There's usually a reason why there's not alot of teams that win titles with only 1 superstar. Detroit is an exception, but they were loaded with All-Stars.

And as for Superstars and what they do when they're doubled..well, it has an effect on all 'superstars'. Just look at how bad Kobe's numbers have been in elimination games throughout the past 6 seasons. Dirk is God-like in comparison to Kobe in close-out games even when you include his stinker last night.

[kingmalaki]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

I think you're pretty much wrong. Dirk posted repeatedly throughout the series and was doubled much of the time without the ball. When Dirk moved to the perimeter, don't you think that was probably an AJ decision? And as for going to the offensive boards, Dirk did that repeatedly throughout the series. He averaged over 4 a game.

We will have to agree to disagree. I recall Dirk spending the majority of his time outside of the paint.

Originally Posted by Murphy3

As for superstars being doubled.. Yeah, some go through that quite a bit. But, most aren't doubled without the ball. And if you want to talk about superstars, well, most of them have a superstar-like compadre with them if they are to win titles. The Mavs have no one close. There's usually a reason why there's not alot of teams that win titles with only 1 superstar. Detroit is an exception, but they were loaded with All-Stars.

I don't think the majority of superstars are doubled without the ball as much as you are claiming Dirk was doubled without the rock. I think other superstars are shaded just as much as Dirk is, especially post players (i.e. Duncan or Yao). I agree with you that most teams don't win a title with just 1 superstar, but I think Dirk's supporting cast is better than most. It seems like Stack, Howard, Harris and JT are devalued on this board...but they were the ones I saw stepping it up in this series (especially Harris, Stack and Josh).

Originally Posted by Murphy3

And as for Superstars and what they do when they're doubled..well, it has an effect on all 'superstars'. Just look at how bad Kobe's numbers have been in elimination games throughout the past 6 seasons. Dirk is God-like in comparison to Kobe in close-out games even when you include his stinker last night.

I think you will be hard-pressed to find another superstar putting up 8 points in an elimination game.

Originally Posted by Murphy3

So, what's your point about the post game? That in no way answers anything to do with my post.

Yes, you have a good point.. Although Duncan's defensive abilities are greatly reduced in the playoffs especially when matching up against the Suns or the Mavs.. He can be all defense all he wants against Dampier.. that still wouldn't have a huge impact on the series.

And yeah, he does already have three titles. I can't argue with there.

As for Dirk needing to receive grief over this series.. I completely agree. Dirk should be raked over the coals a bit..as should the rest of the team and the coaching staff. I just think it's gone a bit far already with some people.

I think folks view Duncan differently based on interpration..due to his post game and rep (3 titles) folks cut him more slack. I thought your question was why don't people trip when Duncan puts up playoff numbers comparable to Dirk?

Dirk is gonna get it BAD this summer. I think he is fortunate to be on this team though, as y'all have some pieces to make moves and an owner that is willing to pay. If he is serious about working on a post-game then it will make all the difference in the world.......

[twelli]

First of all, Thank you, Dirk, for the great regular season!

I don't understand why people say those 82 games are meaningless. Why playing them if they are? NBA is entertainment, and during the regular season the Mavs' fans where entertained well.

Now, the last 6 games where not what we expected, and I am disappointed as anyone. I don't blame Dirk alone that we lost, but I blame him for that he disappeared. That is simply not acceptable. We were down by two points, and when we needed him most in the third quarter he didn't play, no excuse.

Why?

My guess is, he just wanted to get it over with, just go home, end this nightmare of a series. Hope he has a great time on an island in the Indian ocean or wherever...

For all those who think he's a good player, but not a superstar who can lead his team to the promised land, you are probably right. Those players perform best when the pressure is the highest, and Dirk just didn't bring it. The pressure was just too much for him.

Why was there so much pressure?
1. Finals disaster last year
2. Best regular season record this year
3. MVP debate
4. 1. seed against 8. seed who just barely made it to the playoffs
5. Self-inflicted pressure by always saying that only a championship counts


Why was it so difficult?
1. Warriors were bad matchup
2. Double/Triple teams effective because of no inside scoring thread
3. Their athletic guards were better than ours
4. They shot much better than they did in the regular season (including a lot of unbelievably lucky shots)
5. Their coach had a special agenda against us, and knew more about us than our coach about them
6. Their fans where all pumped up for their first time in the playoffs for ages
7. No Mavs player played consistently up to his potential.
8. We didn't have the right player to beat the Warriors. Damp on the bench. Buckner and George sucked. Howard plays only one half of a game. Terry's shooting percentage. Harris good and bad. Stackhouse good and bad. Diop no scoring threat. Avery confused.

What now?
1. Trade Dirk?
If we trade Dirk, I am afraid Dallas soon falls apart like Sacramento did.

2. Change players around Dirk?
Whatever we do, we must address the choke issue. With the same cast of players, we will run into the same brick wall as in the last three postseasons. We need some good tough-minded player to play alongside Dirk, like Stackhouse (just better, younger and without the turnovers and bone-headed plays).

If I where Cuban, I would give it one more try with Dirk, but probably trade Dampier and Terry.

Maybe Dirk isn't the one who can lead a team to a championship, but how many players are there who can? I think he's still the Mavs' best chance right now.

[Silk Smoov]

Originally Posted by twelli

First of all, Thank you, Dirk, for the great regular season!

I don't understand why people say those 82 games are meaningless. Why playing them if they are? NBA is entertainment, and during the regular season the Mavs' fans where entertained well.

Now, the last 6 games where not what we expected, and I am disappointed as anyone. I don't blame Dirk alone that we lost, but I blame him for that he disappeared. That is simply not acceptable. We were down by two points, and when we needed him most in the third quarter he didn't play, no excuse.

Why?

My guess is, he just wanted to get it over with, just go home, end this nightmare of a series. Hope he has a great time on an island in the Indian ocean or wherever...

For all those who think he's a good player, but not a superstar who can lead his team to the promised land, you are probably right. Those players perform best when the pressure is the highest, and Dirk just didn't bring it. The pressure was just too much for him.

Why was there so much pressure?
1. Finals disaster last year
2. Best regular season record this year
3. MVP debate
4. 1. seed against 8. seed who just barely made it to the playoffs
5. Self-inflicted pressure by always saying that only a championship counts


Why was it so difficult?
1. Warriors were bad matchup
2. Double/Triple teams effective because of no inside scoring thread
3. Their athletic guards were better than ours
4. They shot much better than they did in the regular season (including a lot of unbelievably lucky shots)
5. Their coach had a special agenda against us, and knew more about us than our coach about them
6. Their fans where all pumped up for their first time in the playoffs for ages
7. No Mavs player played consistently up to his potential.
8. We didn't have the right player to beat the Warriors. Damp on the bench. Buckner and George sucked. Howard plays only one half of a game. Terry's shooting percentage. Harris good and bad. Stackhouse good and bad. Diop no scoring threat. Avery confused.

What now?
1. Trade Dirk?
If we trade Dirk, I am afraid Dallas soon falls apart like Sacramento did.

2. Change players around Dirk?
Whatever we do, we must address the choke issue. With the same cast of players, we will run into the same brick wall as in the last three postseasons. We need some good tough-minded player to play alongside Dirk, like Stackhouse (just better, younger and without the turnovers and bone-headed plays).

If I where Cuban, I would give it one more try with Dirk, but probably trade Dampier and Terry.

Maybe Dirk isn't the one who can lead a team to a championship, but how many players are there who can? I think he's still the Mavs' best chance right now.

Originally Posted by twelli

2. Change players around Dirk?
Whatever we do, we must address the choke issue.

There is ONLY one way to address the choke issue... Dirk is the big choker. So how can we address that w/o addressing Dirk? You CANT win a title with your Superstar as the choker. It has never happened. Now if Dirk was Robin, then I say go for it.

On the floor, everything starts from the top. If your top (Head of the snake) is a choker, then that makes your team a choker most likely. I think this same exact team minus Dirk and plug in KG, would win a title.

The pluses with KG would outweigh the pluses with Dirk. Remember, Dirk's pluses are completely gone in the playoffs. No longer is he a match-up problem. This is the biggest plus that Dirk has, and that goes away in the playoffs.

I think we win maybe more regular season games with Dirk over KG. Not alot more games but a few. Come playoff time, we win more games with KG. Which is better for a title? Real simple..MORE WINS in the playoffs.

KG has never played with a physical center, so it takes its toll on KG during the regular season. So with Damp/Diop, I think that KG has the best years of his career. I could not imagine KG not having to be the enforcer

KG would be in heaven having the pieces that the Mavs have. On top of that, he has a robin in Howard, plus a great shooter in Terry, and have Harris to run the show in hyper speed, plus plays defense. How could you then stop the Mavs? KG is NOT a Superstar that you can just double team. His basketball IQ is too high for that. Plus KG has a heart of a lion. Do you not know the confidence we would have with a person like that...Remember what KVE gave us? Now imagine KG with our team!!!!!!!!!!! Then, anyone can bring on that thug ball or Pistons ball. We could adapt then to any style.

[Murphy3]

malakai... he might spent a few minutes more outside of the paint, but there was no shortage of him posting up...none whatsoever.

[jthig32]

I find it laughable, and then embarassing that there are Mavs fans out there that want to trade Dirk "the choker" for Garnett "the magical answer".

Absolutely laughable. We already have a hard time on offense when Avery gets outcoached, and you guys want to seriously downgrade the offensive abilities of our best player.

Here's a question: Do you guys realize Dirk and KG have VERY similar offensive games, overall? Garnett is a high post player, same as Dirk, except Dirk is 10 times better at it.

Now against Golden State, Garnett would have been able to get better position down low, sure. So maybe we beat Golden State with Garnett instead of Dirk. MAYBE. So now, what do we do when we play San Antonio? We lose, that's what. Garnett is an upgrade defensively and a downgrade offensively, and he's won less than Dirk.

You know what the biggest knock on Garnett is in Minnesota? He doesn't demand that ball in crunch time, and he gives it up too easily when he does. Been that way for years.

So get off the KG thing, unless you've got away to keep Dirk and get KG, becausse that's the only way getting KG would make this team better.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I find it laughable, and then embarassing that there are Mavs fans out there that want to trade Dirk "the choker" for Garnett "the magical answer".

Absolutely laughable. We already have a hard time on offense when Avery gets outcoached, and you guys want to seriously downgrade the offensive abilities of our best player.

Here's a question: Do you guys realize Dirk and KG have VERY similar offensive games, overall? Garnett is a high post player, same as Dirk, except Dirk is 10 times better at it.

Now against Golden State, Garnett would have been able to get better position down low, sure. So maybe we beat Golden State with Garnett instead of Dirk. MAYBE. So now, what do we do when we play San Antonio? We lose, that's what. Garnett is an upgrade defensively and a downgrade offensively, and he's won less than Dirk.

You know what the biggest knock on Garnett is in Minnesota? He doesn't demand that ball in crunch time, and he gives it up too easily when he does. Been that way for years.

So get off the KG thing, unless you've got away to keep Dirk and get KG, becausse that's the only way getting KG would make this team better.

That's a pretty persuasive argument, thig. However, it ignores the possibility that if Garnett WERE on this Mavs team, then his record/style/attitude/etc might be markedly different.

And it also assumes that the Dirk of today is the same player that Dirk has been the last several years. Frankly, I don't think he is...and that's because of AJ. Nellie made Dirk into the player he is, and AJ seems dead-set on beating it out of him.

During most of this series, Dirk looked two things to me: TIRED and CONFUSED. Avery rode Dirk into the ground all season long. Constantly posting him at the elbow, left to operate on his own. Pressuring him to get offensive boards. Demanding a constantly strong effort on the defensive end. Now, none of those things are drawbacks in and of themselves. But when you put them all together--and you keep it up for months on end--a guy gets worn down. Bottom line: AJ asked for way more from Dirk than Nellie ever did...and he ended getting less from him as a result.

There IS an art to managing your players.

And then on top of that, the confusion part. Dirk has got to be the most coachable player in the league. Just tell him what you want him to do, and he'll do it. But on offense, I don't think Avery knew what the hell to do during this series. What the hell was going on in the third quarter? Dirk was getting the ball on the perimeter and IMMEDIATELY swinging it. That's not Dirk. Dirk doesn't do that on his own. He was being given directions...and I for one do not believe that those directions were worth a hill of beans.

I'm getting more and more angry hearing about all this "Dirk choked" stuff. Yeah, that's probably how it looks. But I've been watching Dirk for ten years now, and I KNOW that Dirk doesn't choke.

Dirk has been EMASCULATED by Avery Johnson. Plain and simple. Avery has a vision for Dirk as a player, and it doesn't mesh AT ALL with the kind of player Dirk has been his entire career.

KG, on the other hand, fits that vision EXTREMELY well. That's why, as much as it absolutely pains me to say this, if Avery is going to stick around then I would prefer a straight-up trade for KG. I hate to see the Mavericks suffering like this, and I hate to see Dirk suffering too. That trade should be a win-win for both the players and for Dirk.

Of course, then we would have to worry about another contender in Minnesota. But anything is better than this.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

That's a pretty persuasive argument, thig. However, it ignores the possibility that if Garnett WERE on this Mavs team, then his record/style/attitude/etc might be markedly different.

And it also assumes that the Dirk of today is the same player that Dirk has been the last several years. Frankly, I don't think he is...and that's because of AJ. Nellie made Dirk into the player he is, and AJ seems dead-set on beating it out of him.

During most of this series, Dirk looked two things to me: TIRED and CONFUSED. Avery rode Dirk into the ground all season long. Constantly posting him at the elbow, left to operate on his own. Pressuring him to get offensive boards. Demanding a constantly strong effort on the defensive end. Now, none of those things are drawbacks in and of themselves. But when you put them all together--and you keep it up for months on end--a guy gets worn down. Bottom line: AJ asked for way more from Dirk than Nellie ever did...and he ended getting less from him as a result.

There IS an art to managing your players.

And then on top of that, the confusion part. Dirk has got to be the most coachable player in the league. Just tell him what you want him to do, and he'll do it. But on offense, I don't think Avery knew what the hell to do during this series. What the hell was going on in the third quarter? Dirk was getting the ball on the perimeter and IMMEDIATELY swinging it. That's not Dirk. Dirk doesn't do that on his own. He was being given directions...and I for one do not believe that those directions were worth a hill of beans.

I'm getting more and more angry hearing about all this "Dirk choked" stuff. Yeah, that's probably how it looks. But I've been watching Dirk for ten years now, and I KNOW that Dirk doesn't choke.

Dirk has been EMASCULATED by Avery Johnson. Plain and simple. Avery has a vision for Dirk as a player, and it doesn't mesh AT ALL with the kind of player Dirk has been his entire career.

KG, on the other hand, fits that vision EXTREMELY well. That's why, as much as it absolutely pains me to say this, if Avery is going to stick around then I would prefer a straight-up trade for KG. I hate to see the Mavericks suffering like this, and I hate to see Dirk suffering too. That trade should be a win-win for both the players and for Dirk.

Of course, then we would have to worry about another contender in Minnesota. But anything is better than this.

Well, I guess I'd like to get an explanation as to why you think Garnett is better suited for Avery's system.

Is it just the defense? Is it the offense? Because Garnett is a high post player as well.

And I question why Garnett's aggresiveness at the end of games would change if he was on the Mavs. He's the big dog in Minnesota, with no competition for main guy on offense, and he shrinks over and over again in big regular season moments when his team needs a bucket.

Also, if the basis of conversation is "if Avery is your long term coach, how do you want this team to look" then I might actually be a LITTLE close to agreeing with you. I'd at least listen.

My point is that what we're discussing here is the best way to fix the Mavs. And in my opinion, anyone that thinks getting rid of Dirk for KG is a better answer than getting rid of Avery is nuts.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

My point is that what we're discussing here is the best way to fix the Mavs. And in my opinion, anyone that thinks getting rid of Dirk for KG is a better answer than getting rid of Avery is nuts.

I'll certainly go along with that. I guess I'm just assuming that replacing AJ is the absolute last thing Cuban would do. Maybe I should rethink that.

Part of the reason the whole Nellie quitting thing, or whatever you want to call it, happened is that evidently it is against Cuban's raw instincts to let a guy go if he's going to remain on the payroll and get paid for nothing. I guess he feels like the guy is getting one over on him, and you know Cuban will NEVER stand for that, even it means cutting off his own nose to spite his face.

Cuban hated Nellie for two years before Nellie finally found a way to end the horribly dysfunctional situation. Cuban should have ponied up and fired Nellie a long time before--as he would have done IN A HEARTBEAT if Nellie didn't have a long-term contract.

So, anyway, I'm pretty sure AJ is staying aboard. Not just for that reason, but also because Cuban is not a basketball guy and he presumably wouldn't know who to hire if he did fire AJ. He could listen to Donnie...but we all know he won't.