Chandler still mad the Mavs didn't resign him - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

mavs777 · 05-20-2012, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Deron Williams: 7 seasons, 3 All-Star appearances
Tyson Chandler: 11 seasons, 0 All-Star appearances

Good centers are tough to find in this league, but good point guards aren't any easier...

I don't agree with your last statement but Deron's impact> Tyson's, there are plenty of good PG's in the league (off top of my head CP3/Westbrook/Rose/Deron/Kyrie/Nash/Rubio/Dragic/Lowry/Sessions/Jrue/Rondo/Lawson/ Conley ect..

wilmtalk · 05-20-2012, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I don't think they said "No, thanks." I think they said "We can do better."

I think you are correct. If they would have gotten Howard the gamble would have been worth it, but they didn't and probably won't. The gamble wasn't worth it for just for Darran. What some of you seem to be forgetting is team dynamics. Tyson was perfect compliment to Dirk and visa versa. Tyson will not be as effective or as valuable to any other team as he was with the mavs as well as even he realized this season. It requires compatability for superstars to play well together.

It also takes a specific talent beyond just technical basketball knowledge to recognize which players would be compatable with each other. I again am begining to question if the front office or coaching staff really has that ability. I thought they had it last season but then I had forgotten that Tyson sort of fell into their laps. Last year seemed to be more of a fortunate accident rather than a well constructed plan. Well we shall soon see!

chumdawg · 05-20-2012, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilmtalk

It also takes a specific talent beyond just technical basketball knowledge to recognize which players would be compatable with each other. I again am begining to question if the front office or coaching staff really has that ability. I thought they had it last season but then I had forgotten that Tyson sort of fell into their laps. Last year seemed to be more of a fortunate accident rather than a well constructed plan. Well we shall soon see!

A guy whose opinion I respect above all others says that he would take one Tyson Chandler over ten Dwight Howards...because Dwight Howard is a loser.

Shocking claim. It at least made me think.

Scott McGuire · 05-20-2012, 07:28 AM

Since everyone wants to talk about Tyson as if we could get him, let's imagine that he is available this year. Would you give him 4/55 right now (he'd probably cost more after his DPOY) Taking up around 13 million in capspace?

You can amnesty Haywood and that leaves you still offering less than max for Deron. Even if he does sign you lost everyone else and only get minimum ones after that for the next 2 years at least.

The question always comes down to irreplaceable value with regards to cheaper players. Proven rebounding and defense from a big man aren't as irreplaceable as a proven scoring and passing point guard.

With the new CBA you shouldn't tie up 14 million/year in a rebounding defensive center with a spotty injury history. Even if he is a great chemisty, great defensive player. Key offensive players are just worth more. You can build a championship team around Deron for the next 4/5 years with him being the cornerstone. Tyson is a great complimentary piece. He anchors your defense and is efficient on offense, but cannot innitiate anything on that end. Tyson's value should cap at 9/10 million/year in the new CBA. Deron is underpaid at 17 million/year.

oilfieldtrash · 05-20-2012, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott McGuire

Since everyone wants to talk about Tyson as if we could get him, let's imagine that he is available this year. Would you give him 4/55 right now (he'd probably cost more after his DPOY) Taking up around 13 million in capspace?

You can amnesty Haywood and that leaves you still offering less than max for Deron. Even if he does sign you lost everyone else and only get minimum ones after that for the next 2 years at least.

The question always comes down to irreplaceable value with regards to cheaper players. Proven rebounding and defense from a big man aren't as irreplaceable as a proven scoring and passing point guard.

With the new CBA you shouldn't tie up 14 million/year in a rebounding defensive center with a spotty injury history. Even if he is a great chemisty, great defensive player. Key offensive players are just worth more. You can build a championship team around Deron for the next 4/5 years with him being the cornerstone. Tyson is a great complimentary piece. He anchors your defense and is efficient on offense, but cannot innitiate anything on that end. Tyson's value should cap at 9/10 million/year in the new CBA. Deron is underpaid at 17 million/year.

What if Chandler would of took 11 a year? He did say he was willing to give a hometown discount. 11 here vs 14 in NY is probably the same anyways after taxes. We could of kept Ty, Barea, and still made a run at a guy like Dragic. That sounds better than Dirk, Deron and the D Leaguers.

Scott McGuire · 05-20-2012, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

What if Chandler would of took 11 a year? He did say he was willing to give a hometown discount. 11 here vs 14 in NY is probably the same anyways after taxes. We could of kept Ty, Barea, and still made a run at a guy like Dragic. That sounds better than Dirk, Deron and the D Leaguers.

We don't know what Tyson meant. I'm pretty sure the "hometown discount" was closer to 14 than 9. Overpaying Barea and Dragic wouldn't make up for slightly ovepaying Tyson. Make no mistake, Dragic will take the contract from whomever offers the most. He will be paid as if he'll repeat his performance from this year. I really like him, but so does Portland and Houston.

The D leaguer comment would not apply to a Deron/Dirk team. They would be able to use the odom contract to get something. They could use the rest of the capspace to target guys that are being undervalued.

oilfieldtrash · 05-20-2012, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott McGuire

We don't know what Tyson meant. I'm pretty sure the "hometown discount" was closer to 14 than 9. Overpaying Barea and Dragic wouldn't make up for slightly ovepaying Tyson. Make no mistake, Dragic will take the contract from whomever offers the most. He will be paid as if he'll repeat his performance from this year. I really like him, but so does Portland and Houston.

The D leaguer comment would not apply to a Deron/Dirk team. They would be able to use the odom contract to get something. They could use the rest of the capspace to target guys that are being undervalued.

You're going to have to splain how the Odom contract is worth anything more than toilet paper. I just don't see it.

Also what capspace is left after signing Deron?

Underdog · 05-20-2012, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

You're going to have to splain how the Odom contract is worth anything more than toilet paper. I just don't see it.

Odom's $8.2M contract can be bought out for $2.4M, which means that even if a team doesn't value him as a player (and they might), they can at least save $5.8M this season by waiving him. It could be a great option for a cellar dweller team looking to shed salary... And we could get a pretty decent player in return.

I have no idea which players are actually on the trading block this summer, but for example, mid-caliber guys like Luis Scola (Rockets), Marcus Thornton (Kings) or Andrea Bargnani (Raptors) would definitely work in a straight-up trade for Lamar Odom's contract... Or we could get two MLE-type players in exchange... Or we could package him with Roddy or DoJo... The point is, Odom's contract still has plenty of value.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

Also what capspace is left after signing Deron?

That depends on what the cap is next year - it's around $57M right now, rumored to go as high as $61M next season (although a lot of people seem to think it's going to stay the same). Also, trading Odom's contract to get that $2.4M off our books would factor in...

oilfieldtrash · 05-20-2012, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Odom's $8.2M contract can be bought out for $2.4M, which means that even if a team doesn't value him as a player (and they might), they can at least save $5.8M this season by waiving him. It could be a great option for a cellar dweller team looking to shed salary... And we could get a pretty decent player in return.

I have no idea which players are actually on the trading block this summer, but for example, mid-caliber guys like Luis Scola (Rockets), Marcus Thornton (Kings) or Andrea Bargnani (Raptors) would definitely work in a straight-up trade for Lamar Odom's contract... Or we could get two MLE-type players in exchange... Or we could package him with Roddy or DoJo... The point is, Odom's contract still has plenty of value.

So teams have to spend all of their salary cap space?

Underdog · 05-20-2012, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

So teams have to spend all of their salary cap space?

What? No. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion...

Although, under the new CBA, there is a minimum that each team has to spend - I think it's something like 85% of the salary cap in 2012-13.

oilfieldtrash · 05-20-2012, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

What? No. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion...

Although, under the new CBA, there is a minimum that each team has to spend - I think it's something like 85% of the salary cap in 2012-13.

Oh.. So teams looking to just straight up dump salary. ok. Can we send money with Odom so it is more attractive to teams. And Luis Scola, that'd be awesome.

Underdog · 05-20-2012, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

Oh.. So teams looking to just straight up dump salary. ok. Can we send money with Odom so it is more attractive to teams. And Luis Scola, that'd be awesome.

Well, Scola was just an example of the type of player the Mavs could get in a salary match - I doubt he's on the market, and definitely not for Odom's contract.

But, yes, we're looking for a suitor who wants to dump salary.

And I'm not sure about sending money - I know it's more limited under the new CBA (the Mark Cuban Rule). From my understanding (which could be completely wrong), I think you can still send money in a trade for a player OR a draft pick, but not both... And I'm pretty sure you can only package cash once per season, if at all.

KillerLeft · 05-20-2012, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adonis

Oh right, the all-star argument

2011 Mavs: 1 All Star

2004 Mavs: 4 All Stars

It doesn't count as 4 All Stars when 3 of the 4 play the same position. That's more like 2 All Stars and 2 guys who are really pissed off all the time.

bobatundi · 05-20-2012, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Remind me: Who was the biggest free agent the Heat had signed (not traded for!!!) before they made the biggest free agency splash in NBA history?

Technically speaking, they traded for Bosh and LeDouche.

Scott McGuire · 05-20-2012, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Odom's $8.2M contract can be bought out for $2.4M, which means that even if a team doesn't value him as a player (and they might), they can at least save $5.8M this season by waiving him. It could be a great option for a cellar dweller team looking to shed salary... And we could get a pretty decent player in return.

I have no idea which players are actually on the trading block this summer, but for example, mid-caliber guys like Luis Scola (Rockets), Marcus Thornton (Kings) or Andrea Bargnani (Raptors) would definitely work in a straight-up trade for Lamar Odom's contract... Or we could get two MLE-type players in exchange... Or we could package him with Roddy or DoJo... The point is, Odom's contract still has plenty of value.

That depends on what the cap is next year - it's around $57M right now, rumored to go as high as $61M next season (although a lot of people seem to think it's going to stay the same). Also, trading Odom's contract to get that $2.4M off our books would factor in...

I was really encouraged that Rick said that he and Donnie will be rating every position of every team in the league. It's encouraging for a few reasons. I'll make the obvious comment that most teams probably do this. The difference is that our head coach and general manager aren't even taking a vacation so that they can get it done soon, probably before the draft. This will also mean that they will have conversations about every single potential trade acquisition. With an important trade piece like Odom's contract, let's hope it yields an important player in return.

I'd obviously think the 3 players you mentioned in Scola, Thorton, and Bargniani would not be available for the Odom's contract, but I hope they know which teams are interested and have come up with potential matches. I can't wait for July 1.

LonghornDub · 05-20-2012, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I don't disagree with you. In fact, I think people make the same mistake when they dismiss Nellie's teams. Lot of people say that Nellie's style could "never win it all"...but it came damn close in '03. Dirk doesn't go down against the Spurs, and maybe we take that series, and the one after. The "fluke" was the injury, not the success of the style.

OKC of this year and last is likely going to deal with this same issue. On perhaps slightly different dimensions...but the same issue.

That's always an issue I've found to be fascinating. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that style, especially on a team as talented as that particular Mavs team. My concern has always been the way that style tends to match up (at least in practice) to a contrasting style that happened to be utilized by the other two best teams in the West during those years.

But I certainly don't think the Mavs' success that year was a fluke either. That was an excellent team. They may well have won it with their best player.

adonis · 05-20-2012, 02:06 PM

So what did Chandler get offered anyways?

Kante · 05-20-2012, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adonis

So what did Chandler get offered anyways?

20/1 i heard somewhere, not sure if true.

Rick41 · 05-21-2012, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kante

20/1 i heard somewhere, not sure if true.

I think it was 22/1.

Scott McGuire · 05-21-2012, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I don't disagree with you. In fact, I think people make the same mistake when they dismiss Nellie's teams. Lot of people say that Nellie's style could "never win it all"...but it came damn close in '03. Dirk doesn't go down against the Spurs, and maybe we take that series, and the one after. The "fluke" was the injury, not the success of the style.

KERRRRRRRRRR

Erod · 05-21-2012, 08:49 AM

Tyson Chandler will be remembered for being the missing ingredient that helped Dirk and company win a championship.

Cuban will always be the guy that accidentally won a championship, then purposefully blew up the team immediately after.

Underdog · 05-21-2012, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erod

Cuban will always be the guy that accidentally won a championship, then purposefully blew up the team immediately after.

You don't "accidentally" win a ring in a best-of-seven format.

DevinHarriswillstart · 05-21-2012, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erod

Cuban will always be the guy that accidentally won a championship, then purposefully blew up the team immediately after.

Using your grade A logic here...

If Cuban "accidentally" won a championship, then why would it be so essential to keep the same team together? It was only by chance that he won it...right?

bernardos70 · 05-21-2012, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

But we did "resign" him...

Thank you! This misuse is a pet peeve of mine.

LonghornDub · 05-21-2012, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Using your grade A logic here...

If Cuban "accidentally" won a championship, then why would it be so essential to keep the same team together? It was only by chance that he won it...right?

Man, I gotta say, this is beautiful. Golf clap (and rep).

Kidd Karma · 05-21-2012, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Well, Scola was just an example of the type of player the Mavs could get in a salary match - I doubt he's on the market, and definitely not for Odom's contract.

But, yes, we're looking for a suitor who wants to dump salary.

And I'm not sure about sending money - I know it's more limited under the new CBA (the Mark Cuban Rule). From my understanding (which could be completely wrong), I think you can still send money in a trade for a player OR a draft pick, but not both... And I'm pretty sure you can only package cash once per season, if at all.

Teams are limited to 3 million per fiscal year, which is July 1 - June 30. In the past it was 3 million max per trade.

Kidd Karma · 05-21-2012, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kante

20/1 i heard somewhere, not sure if true.

Yea I heard that too, one year fat offer, as to not plug the cap space this summer.

Kidd Karma · 05-21-2012, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erod

Tyson Chandler will be remembered for being the missing ingredient that helped Dirk and company win a championship.

Cuban will always be the guy that accidentally won a championship, then purposefully blew up the team immediately after.

You don't accidentally win a championship when you work 4-5 years preparing for it. Cuban decided to shut his mouth, and for him to do so, it wasn't an accident. Cuban acquires Kidd after witnessing first hand his triple double monster game in early 2008. He felt he was the guy to help Dirk when team's triple him ala GSW in the 1st round upset. Then the Stack Chip and Dust Chip were set up as an attractive trade chip. Eventually this parlayed into Shawn Marion and Chandler, 2 starters. Unable to resurrect what was once there in Diop and Josh Howard, he moves them for Brendan Haywood, Deshawn Stevenson and Caron Butler. it was a methodical plan to address weaknesses from year to year.

Underdog · 05-21-2012, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kidd Karma

You don't accidentally win a championship when you work 4-5 years preparing for it. Cuban decided to shut his mouth, and for him to do so, it wasn't an accident. Cuban acquires Kidd after witnessing first hand his triple double monster game in early 2008. He felt he was the guy to help Dirk when team's triple him ala GSW in the 1st round upset. Then the Stack Chip and Dust Chip were set up as an attractive trade chip. Eventually this parlayed into Shawn Marion and Chandler, 2 starters. Unable to resurrect what was once there in Diop and Josh Howard, he moves them for Brendan Haywood, Deshawn Stevenson and Caron Butler. it was a methodical plan to address weaknesses from year to year.

So much win in this post (and plenty of reason to be optimistic about the Mavericks going forward...)

ibivibiv · 05-21-2012, 03:02 PM

So seriously something like Deron + Dirk + Hibbert/kaman/camby etc. next year is < Dirk + name the mid level PG + Chandler? That is assuming that eating that Chandler contract knocks out your chances of getting Deron? Y'all are cahrahzy lol. Now if you told me that we ditched Chandler because we seriously thought that we were getting Deron + Howard you are crazy too. I think it is all about Deron and it should be. The new rules don't bode well for having 3 big time contracts. I would be stunned given the amount of studying Cuban and friends did with these new rules if they seriously planned to have 3 big contracts this next year. Letting Chandler go sucked, but I guess it was the right move at the time. If we don't get Deron then we can all say it was a bad move, but then again who knows what happens next then right? Until there is no more Mavs you can't really say what was bad or good. It has to be ALL over before you can pull out your good bad checklist.

dude1394 · 05-21-2012, 03:23 PM

Man...lumping hibbert in with camby/kaman is well... Not good is the most polite thing i can think of to say about it.

ibivibiv · 05-21-2012, 03:24 PM

Yeah I know, just listing who is out there. Heck Lopez is available too. People are just acting like it is Haywood or Howard or bust. There are some other people to fit in there.

bobatundi · 05-21-2012, 03:53 PM

I think two big stars/contracts, surrounded by quality depth, is more likely to have success than three big contracts surrounded by minimum salary schmucks.

cowdog80 · 05-22-2012, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

And as Skin pointed out this week, the Spurs won a championship and didn't invite Avery Johnson back. Then they won a championship with Tony Parker and spent all summer flirting with Jason Kidd. And you think Pop was every where massaging egos? No. You do what you think is best for your organization. If anything, you can make the case the Spurs have been MORE successful than the Mavs in part because they've been MORE cut throat, and not fallen in love with their players to the extent that the Mavs have.

The flip side would be this - how many major FAs has that cutthroat approach landed the Spurs?

Apparently no big deal when you can create a high level roster with Danny Greens and Kawhi Leonards playing major roles. But if your plan involves landing elite free agents - then the reputation of 'taking care of our guys' means something. And I don't think Cubes has that to the level that maybe he once did.

Now, I think some of that is probably overstated as $ speak more than anything when it comes to FA. But when trying to lure a guy like Deron, et al, every thing could be a factor.

Underdog · 05-22-2012, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibivibiv

Yeah I know, just listing who is out there. Heck Lopez is available too. People are just acting like it is Haywood or Howard or bust. There are some other people to fit in there.

Andrew Bynum unsure of future

Should we throw his name in the mix?

41mvp · 05-22-2012, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Andrew Bynum unsure of future

Should we throw his name in the mix?

yes sir

LonghornDub · 05-22-2012, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Andrew Bynum unsure of future

Should we throw his name in the mix?

Yes and without the slightest bit of hesitation. I don't see how it happens, but nabbing him would be an absolute game-changer.

Underdog · 05-22-2012, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Yes and without the slightest bit of hesitation. I don't see how it happens, but nabbing him would be an absolute game-changer.

I hate to hijack yet another much-needed Tyson Chandler butt-bleeding, but I'm starting to get the vibe that the Lakers are looking to make a huge splash this summer after going 1-8 in the 2nd Round the past two seasons...

It's become very clear that either Gasol or Bynum won't be back because the Lakers are already at $61M in salary next season BEFORE picking up the $16.1M option on Bynum, and that's with only 7 players on their roster... If they're going to lose one of them anyway, then revisiting the idea of trading Gasol/Bynum for Howard/Turkoglu might make a bit of sense, especially if they're interested in life after Kobe... Plus, if they managed to swing that deal, then they'd probably be a shoe-in to land CP3 next summer.

b_o_r · 05-22-2012, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I hate to hijack yet another much-needed Tyson Chandler butt-bleeding, but I'm starting to get the vibe that the Lakers are looking to make a huge splash this summer after going 1-8 in the 2nd Round the past two seasons...

They might even try to revive the Gasol to Houson trade for Dragic and Scola. Bynum/Sessions/draft picks to NJ for Williams sounds plausible as well. They have good assets.

GhostFace · 05-22-2012, 10:58 AM

It's annoying that the Lakers can still make these kinds of moves and have these options. Good assets indeed...

And why would we be interested in Bynum with his childish attitude? We already tried to sign one egotistical former Laker and we saw how well that went...