Fire Kidd

[saclare]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

"Only took a few posters, but glad one of you showed up! Logic over feelings."

Lol. Ironic.

There is no logic in all the sudden championing Frank. We all watched the game and we didnt win because Frank saved the day. Feelings aren't hurt broham.

How fucking dense. No one is championing Frank. But you lot are shitting on him when it doesn't warrant it. Your unwavering hate for Kidd is now collecting shrapnel and it's such a good look on y'all...

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Problem is that we've all mapped out team needs and why you play Hardy over Frank...

What does Hardy bring that the need needs...

1. Another ball handler
2. Three point shooting on a team predicated on (9.2 makes on 48% shooting in g league)
3. Fts as he shot 87%
4. Youth and energy the team desperately needs
5. Instant offense
6. A quick pace guard on a team that also desperately needs to quicken their slow pace.

What does Frank bring?

1. Occasionally good defense as a G/F

Comprende?

We aren't contenders this year. We're barely play-in right now. If we were top of the league, fine. But our literal only future youth-wise is Luka, Green, and Hardy. If Hardy pans out, then you can start cutting off fat without worrying about returns like trading THJ or even Dinwiddie since he actually has value.

So yes, I think it's fireable to play Frank 18 minutes to Hardy's 0 against a young and inexperienced team like the Thunder. Especially when coach keeps saying we need to find minutes for Hardy like it's not his decision and that they won't do to Hardy what they did with Green his rookie year. Green played a total of 445 minutes his rookie year. Hardy is currently at 42 minutes total.

[saclare]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Problem is that we've all mapped out team needs and why you play Hardy over Frank...

What does Hardy bring that the need needs...

1. Another ball handler
2. Three point shooting on a team predicated on (9.2 makes on 48% shooting in g league)
3. Fts as he shot 87%
4. Youth and energy the team desperately needs
5. Instant offense
6. A quick pace guard on a team that also desperately needs to quicken their slow pace.

What does Frank bring?

1. Occasionally good defense as a G/F

Comprende?

We aren't contenders this year. We're barely play-in right now. If we were top of the league, fine. But our literal only future youth-wise is Luka, Green, and Hardy. If Hardy pans out, then you can start cutting off fat without worrying about returns like trading THJ or even Dinwiddie since he actually has value.

So yes, I think it's fireable to play Frank 18 minutes to Hardy's 0 against a young and inexperienced team like the Thunder. Especially when coach keeps saying we need to find minutes for Hardy like it's not his decision and that they won't do to Hardy what they did with Green his rookie year. Green played a total of 445 minutes his rookie year. Hardy is currently at 42 minutes total.

All of what Hardy brings isn't up for debate. We all know this and we all want him to play more.

However, you also just listed one side of the court for each player in this discussion. The PRIMARY reason (defense) why we are arguing this specific game and why Kidd played Frank.

I feel like playing Frank was the right move. I'm not arguing that Hardy needs to play more, that is evident. Why he didn't play AT ALL in that game merits this type of fervor, to be plainly clear. BUT, to shit on Frank in an effort to prop up Hardy isn't the way to go about it, nor to shit on the coach for making a decision that I feel ultimately won the game.

Total minutes can be argued, rotations, etc. Frank playing in that game was out of necessity and no more. The dude knows his role and the Mavs needed him this particular night.

That's all. Am I betting Frank gets more minutes than Hardy overall? HELL NO. But when discussing this one game only, I totally understand the call for Frank. At the same time, it doesn't make me want to call for the coach's head.

Not playing Hardy at all: BAD
Playing Frank: not nearly as bad as it's being made out to be

[saclare]

Also, I HIGHLY disagree that the Mavs aren't contenders. When you have a guy like Luka, you are automatically a contender. No one in the NBA has shown the ability to completely dominate just yet. I might give a nod to the Celtics and maaaybe the Bucks, but the rest is WIDE open and especially in the West.

That being said and as I've stated on here elsewhere, I still feel this team could use a trade to naturally unclog the rotation. I'm with you in that Hardy can eventually be a part of a winning rotation, at a minimum. I'd actually love to see Dorsey get some run but damned if I hold my breath on that one.

[rimrocker]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Again, Shai shot 14-23, so yeah, did a great job defensively against him...sigh.

Here is where the strange divide seems to occur with how people view this team. I do not focus so vigilantly on offense vs defense. I focus on PLAYING THE BETTER PLAYER. That just seems so simple to me. Talent>everything else.

What happens is that players who haven't earned their minutes will get to play almost indefinitely because they "supposedly" play defense. But it almost doesn't matter if they play it or not, it's just the perception that they do.

Defense didn't beat the Thunder as they shot 48% from the field. We hit our threes and made fts.

It was a tactical decision that didn't work out obviously, but I don't fault Kidd for making that decision.

Personally, I want to see a more long-term strategic move that would make Hardy become part of the rotation along with Green. Luka, Hardy, and Green are our only hopes for the future, so it only makes sense to start looking at them as the core of this team. Guys like THJ, DFS, Powell, Bullock and Maxi are going to keep us in perpetual mediocrity, so we have to take some type of risk to improve, even if that means taking a step back.
Then the FO adds insult to injury by throwing more average (or lower) players like McGee and Kemba into the mix.

As a fan, I'd be more than happy for the Mavs to go younger with the team as a whole.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by saclare

How fucking dense. No one is championing Frank. But you lot are shitting on him when it doesn't warrant it. Your unwavering hate for Kidd is now collecting shrapnel and it's such a good look on y'all...

I haven't shat(?) on Frank. I must have missed where anyone else has really gone in on him. The dude hasn't played enough for anyone to be sitting on him. Bullock and a cpl others have received much harsher criticism than Frank.

I backed Kidd for a while, but he's been fvcking up and it's well documented. Disagreeing with you on playing Frank over Hardy is not qualification of unwavering hatred of Kidd. You may define it as such but Kidd has way more fumbles since the playoffs last year. If he turns it around somehow then I'll adjust my view on him accordingly.

[Melonhead]

Originally Posted by saclare

Also, I HIGHLY disagree that the Mavs aren't contenders. When you have a guy like Luka, you are automatically a contender. No one in the NBA has shown the ability to completely dominate just yet. I might give a nod to the Celtics and maaaybe the Bucks, but the rest is WIDE open and especially in the West.

Mavs cant risk having Hardy in for 8 minutes a night , but also contenders? I just dont see it. Mavs should 100% be in the top 6. Guess it depends on your definition of contender. The way this team is currently constructed will be exposed in the playoffs. (fingers crossed some magic happens around the deadline)

[saclare]

Originally Posted by rimrocker

It was a tactical decision that didn't work out obviously, but I don't fault Kidd for making that decision.

Personally, I want to see a more long-term strategic move that would make Hardy become part of the rotation along with Green. Luka, Hardy, and Green are our only hopes for the future, so it only makes sense to start looking at them as the core of this team. Guys like THJ, DFS, Powell, Bullock and Maxi are going to keep us in perpetual mediocrity, so we have to take some type of risk to improve, even if that means taking a step back.
Then the FO adds insult to injury by throwing more average (or lower) players like McGee and Kemba into the mix.

As a fan, I'd be more than happy for the Mavs to go younger with the team as a whole.

I'd take it a step further and go for the starting lineup. Hardy has that upside especially if THJ follows his norms of hot and cold streaks and Hardy steadily improves.

As good as he is scoring, he can improve on passing and off ball, though that isn't as big as defense. He looks lost out there at times and I feel it's more something that will come with practice and time and THEN real game action. I really think he's not far and given another 50+ games this season it becomes a real possibility.

[saclare]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I haven't shat(?) on Frank. I must have missed where anyone else has really gone in on him. The dude hasn't played enough for anyone to be sitting on him. Bullock and a cpl others have received much harsher criticism than Frank.

I backed Kidd for a while, but he's been fvcking up and it's well documented. Disagreeing with you on playing Frank over Hardy is not qualification of unwavering hatred of Kidd. You may define it as such but Kidd has way more fumbles since the playoffs last year. If he turns it around somehow then I'll adjust my view on him accordingly.

Maybe I misinterpreted but it sure quickly felt like a dump on Frank and Kidd to hold Hardy up based on this particular decision.

In no way am I fully defending Kidd, only this one game-dependent decision. For example, I already stated it's indefensible to not get Hardy minutes. If that was the plan, then let him go get some run in the G league instead of being injury insurance and getting 0 minutes.

THAT is more detrimental to his development than any size dose of defensive hell he may have been put through.

We can go on about Kidd and the FO, I've already stated it's much too early to start a Fire Anyone thread.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

https://twitter.com/sixfivelando/sta...42387442122753

[JustJay]

Not trying to make excuses for this team but look at the Clippers they got Kawhi and Paul George and have had good players around them pretty much at all times and they have reached the same amount of WCFs as us 1 time.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Even Tim Cato gets it. This is what I was trying to explain to saclare.

https://twitter.com/DylanDuell/statu...05778106433538

[saclare]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Even Tim Cato gets it. This is what I was trying to explain to saclare.

https://twitter.com/DylanDuell/statu...05778106433538

Nothing revolutionary there...must be easy to be a Mavs writer.

I've said my piece. We won the damn game. I've championed for more Hardy PT, just in a sensible manner.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by JustJay

Not trying to make excuses for this team but look at the Clippers they got Kawhi and Paul George and have had good players around them pretty much at all times and they have reached the same amount of WCFs as us 1 time.

One of their biggest problems is Kawhi doesn't play. No way they can get any consistency with his BS load management.

[DIRK LEGIONS]

Originally Posted by JustJay

Not trying to make excuses for this team but look at the Clippers they got Kawhi and Paul George and have had good players around them pretty much at all times and they have reached the same amount of WCFs as us 1 time.

Doc Riveers wasted so many good clipper teams with his shitty coaching.

Same, thing here with Kidd.
But LUKA unlike dirk.who was loyal and stayed all those yrs is not gonna waste his prime with mavericks. Cuban and FO are on a clock and I believe by 2024/25 season if things don't progress LUKA gone either to LA or NY to get more brand recognition for his name and better chance at title.

[JustJay]

We're the #4 seed now, 3.5 games behind #1 seed.

We lost to the Bucks by 1 point, we lost to the Cavs by 1 point, we lost to the Nuggets by 1 point and we lost to the Suns by 2 points in the opener. If we had won all those games we'd be #1 seed right now.

Of course Luka deserves the lionshare of the credit not Kidd, but that's how close we are to being the #1 seed in the West.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by JustJay

We're the #4 seed now, 3.5 games behind #1 seed.

We lost to the Bucks by 1 point, we lost to the Cavs by 1 point, we lost to the Nuggets by 1 point and we lost to the Suns by 2 points in the opener. If we had won all those games we'd be #1 seed right now.

Of course Luka deserves the lionshare of the credit not Kidd, but that's how close we are to being the #1 seed in the West.

We'd probably be the 1 seed had Wood started from the beginning.

[JustJay]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

We'd probably be the 1 seed had Wood started from the beginning.

I know you think that's Kidds fault and maybe it is but I suspect it might have been Cuban. Can't prove it though.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by JustJay

I know you think that's Kidds fault and maybe it is but I suspect it might have been Cuban. Can't prove it though.

But what reason would Cuban do that other than a futile attempt to save money on a contract? Not really seeing that.

[Dallas41]

I was never aboard with the Kidd firing group.

Someone posted the games that dallas lost being 1 point games and blaming Kidd.

But in reality I'm pretty sure you can also say FT shooting probably hurt this team more than Kidd did in most of those games.

Kidd didn't make THJ or Luka clank FT's late in that Bucks game.

We can agree to disagree with his handling of Wood. But I've had no issues with Kidd demanding Wood to be better on defense. Sure, we can say well Powell sucks on defense and still plays.

Wood is more athletic than Powell and has more length. Sometimes you have to be harder on your best players in order to get maimum defensive effort especially since the dude coasted in Houston and defense wasn't a priority for that team.

I trust Kidd in the fact that he needed Wood to buy in before the playoffs and show consistent effort.

Team started like 13-17 last year and 14-16 this year but Kidd for the 2nd straight year started to get the team going in the right direction after 30 games again.

I think some of you are too harsh on him still bringing up his failures in Milwaukee or elsewhere.

Those years have nothing to do with Dallas....

Hell based on his previous coaching stops and the perception of him the Mavs on paper shouldn't have made it to the WCF's.

I also don't think Kidd is responsible to assembling the roster. That is on Cuban not Kidd.

Last year I gave Kidd about B grade for coaching and this year I think he's still around a B grade.

Considering he's coaching a team that gets beats up on the boards nightly and have to rely on inconsistent guys like THJ, Bullock and Powell he's done a solid job.

Luka isn't the greatest defender but he try's more under Kidd than he did at any other time here.

The team still needs a solid rebounding big man as a small move. They need a nice 2nd option as a bigger move (hopefully Lavine).

[mxr2000]

Let's trade Kidd for popovich and some players!

[JustJay]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

But what reason would Cuban do that other than a futile attempt to save money on a contract? Not really seeing that.

I'm not talking about saving money, I'm talking about starting his pal Powell.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by Dallas41

I was never aboard with the Kidd firing group.

Someone posted the games that dallas lost being 1 point games and blaming Kidd.

But in reality I'm pretty sure you can also say FT shooting probably hurt this team more than Kidd did in most of those games.

Kidd didn't make THJ or Luka clank FT's late in that Bucks game.

We can agree to disagree with his handling of Wood. But I've had no issues with Kidd demanding Wood to be better on defense. Sure, we can say well Powell sucks on defense and still plays.

Wood is more athletic than Powell and has more length. Sometimes you have to be harder on your best players in order to get maimum defensive effort especially since the dude coasted in Houston and defense wasn't a priority for that team.

I trust Kidd in the fact that he needed Wood to buy in before the playoffs and show consistent effort.

Team started like 13-17 last year and 14-16 this year but Kidd for the 2nd straight year started to get the team going in the right direction after 30 games again.

I think some of you are too harsh on him still bringing up his failures in Milwaukee or elsewhere.

Those years have nothing to do with Dallas....

Hell based on his previous coaching stops and the perception of him the Mavs on paper shouldn't have made it to the WCF's.

I also don't think Kidd is responsible to assembling the roster. That is on Cuban not Kidd.

Last year I gave Kidd about B grade for coaching and this year I think he's still around a B grade.

Considering he's coaching a team that gets beats up on the boards nightly and have to rely on inconsistent guys like THJ, Bullock and Powell he's done a solid job.

Luka isn't the greatest defender but he try's more under Kidd than he did at any other time here.

The team still needs a solid rebounding big man as a small move. They need a nice 2nd option as a bigger move (hopefully Lavine).

I was on board with Kidd from the start. We'll, I didn't have a problem with him like some did, and was willing to give him a shot. I would have graded him an A last season. He surpassed anything I thought he would accomplish.

This season has turned around a bit lately along with a more evened out West conf. I give him a C- for the botched lineups and rotations and being forced to start Wood. I can't give him credit for that as if he had some master plan to prime him on the bench for 20+ games. He would still be coming off the bench if we were full strength and he might be dumb enough to change it back when a few guys return.

FO bears blame too with the roster build. Which is why Kidd doesnt get a worse grade imo. Hopefully they can get a big and Lavine. We need rebounding and we need another legit creator/ scorer who can play both sides a bit.

[EricaLubarsky]

Recap: Mavs had 5 seconds left to score 1 point. They ran a play and Washington denied it (ball goes out of bounds). 3 seconds left and Dallas runs the EXACT same play and Washington denies the exact same way.

Ball game. Great work, everyone.

[EricaLubarsky]

Really makes you think how a coach can be this bad and still have a job

Mavs are 2-7
Luka is pissed
Guys can?t play together
There is no late-game play calling
This is at least partially on Kidd

[EricaLubarsky]

[JustJay]

I feel the same way about Kidd as I do Mike McCarthy or Kellen Moore on the Cowboys. You can fire one of the head clowns sure, but it's still a clown show.

[tap2390]

True, the clown car isn?t empty until Cuban leaves.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by DIRK LEGIONS

Doc Riveers wasted so many good clipper teams with his shitty coaching.

Same, thing here with Kidd.
But LUKA unlike dirk.who was loyal and stayed all those yrs is not gonna waste his prime with mavericks. Cuban and FO are on a clock and I believe by 2024/25 season if things don't progress LUKA gone either to LA or NY to get more brand recognition for his name and better chance at title.

Dirk?s loyalty enabled the incompetence of the front office

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Dirk?s loyalty enabled the incompetence of the front office

Agreed, and that's why it pissed me off even more when Cuban brought Dirk and other 2011ers in to shield the new coaching/GM hire. Can't be mad at Cuban if Dirk approves!

[tap2390]

Bump?. Arguably the worst coached game of the season by any coach?

[Simon2]

When Kidd says tuff like "I'm not the savior here. I'm watching just like you guys, and as a team, we gotta mature, and we've got a lot of new bodies coming back, and we gotta grow up if we want to win a championship.? It sounds like he is doing the same stuff as you and me. When the Mavs are outscored in the paint 62-32, obviously, the Mavs need a rim protector but never even gave Javale a look. Which part of the team needs to mature? He ain?t playing rookies anyway. Is he talking about complaining to the refs? That?s not why the Mavs lost. When the Lakers were going on a run, did he even call a timeout? Kinda getting tired of Kidd deflecting blame here. Even Luka and Kyrie say it was their fault. The coach though throws them under the bus. No wonder players hate him in their second year.

[EricaLubarsky]

Coaches do five things:

1) Get guys to play together/play at their peak
2) Manage rotations
3) Draw up plays
4) Manage timeouts
5) Develop talent

Can anyone here say that Kidd has done one of those things well?

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Kidd has lost his mind, and I'm not saying that as some joke. All season long, he has been saying stuff like he isn't coach of the team. Wrong meds or something, but it's pretty frightening.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Coaches do five things:

1) Get guys to play together/play at their peak
2) Manage rotations
3) Draw up plays
4) Manage timeouts
5) Develop talent

Can anyone here say that Kidd has done one of those things well?

Absolutely fn not. He is ass at every single one of those things. I'm glad RC is gone but now he has crashed and burned and we need him out too. Kidd has done this to himself starting in the offseason.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Kidd has lost his mind, and I'm not saying that as some joke. All season long, he has been saying stuff like he isn't coach of the team. Wrong meds or something, but it's pretty frightening.

He said what? I haven't heard that. I don't doubt it though. Dudes not head coach material. He is playing fn checkers and this is the highest level of chess. Cuban needs to have a come to Jesus meeting with him. He just doesn't have the balls to do what must be done.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

He said what? I haven't heard that. I don't doubt it though. Dudes not head coach material. He is playing fn checkers and this is the highest level of chess. Cuban needs to have a come to Jesus meeting with him. He just doesn't have the balls to do what must be done.

He has said stuff like he isn't the one who controls lineups. I don't know if it's a joke or not, but it's often perplexing like he talks as if he isn't the one who makes the coaching decisions.

[BigDog63]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

That is all.

Fuck this clown.

He gets worse every second season he survives with a team because being a douche bag quip guy doesn?t make for good coaching.

He goes or I do

Well, guess we'll be seeing you around then. :-)

[BigDog63]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Haha, such a great meme...can use it anywhere.

I would reference all the many things written about Kidd in the past.

Seems like people liked the new things he brought, which were different than Carlisle, but are now missing all the things Carlisle did really well.

That loss was ridiculous, but is it on Kidd, or the players?

There was always going to be an adjustment period with a major roster change.

Are we learning how valuable Kleber is by his absence? And has that value become even higher without DFS and Dinwiddie?

I'm concerned the FO made a major change while ignoring that the Mavs were actually playing quite well until all their defensive players got hurt. And made that change without getting rid of either of their problem contracts. If we're going to call people out, look at the FO.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by BigDog63

Haha, such a great meme...can use it anywhere.

I would reference all the many things written about Kidd in the past.

Seems like people liked the new things he brought, which were different than Carlisle, but are now missing all the things Carlisle did really well.

That loss was ridiculous, but is it on Kidd, or the players?

There was always going to be an adjustment period with a major roster change.

Are we learning how valuable Kleber is by his absence? And has that value become even higher without DFS and Dinwiddie?

I'm concerned the FO made a major change while ignoring that the Mavs were actually playing quite well until all their defensive players got hurt. And made that change without getting rid of either of their problem contracts. If we're going to call people out, look at the FO.

All of the new things Kidd brought have vanished seemingly overnight.

Again, she posted 5 things, which outside of developing Josh Green, he doesn't do well. And then he goes and benches Green for a guy just signed off the buyout. That didn't bother me, but I get why that would irritate people because the Mavs don't seem to have any priorities on how to win. Are they prioritizing Green's development into a serious player or not?

The wishy, washy nature of this team is the demise of it. Plain and simple.

So your argument is that we needed continuity getting our defensive players back, but there really hasn't been any lineup continuity at all regardless of who is hurt or not.