NVE to Pacers? - Page 5 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 10:12 PM

and artest is a guy that can create and slash to the basket... no, he's not a guy that i would want to be one of the top options..however, i think he'd thrive in a situation where he wasn't looked upon to score..

and at times, he'd be the fifth option..just depending upon who he's on the court with

if he's on the court with
dirk, nash, lafrentz, and fin...he's obviously the 5th option..

it's all dependent upon who's in the game

grbh · 06-22-2002, 12:40 AM

Artest is basically a Griffen/Buckner/TAW duplicate that can't shoot.

Oh, come on now. Those guys would love to be in the same league with Artest.

Artest is healthier than any of those players, and more importantly a better defender. I will grant you that he can't shoot, but that's OK.

IMO Artest has a chance to be all NBA defensive first team some day.

David · 06-22-2002, 06:29 AM

<< Artest is basically a Griffen/Buckner/TAW duplicate that can't shoot.

Oh, come on now. Those guys would love to be in the same league with Artest.

Artest is healthier than any of those players, and more importantly a better defender. I will grant you that he can't shoot, but that's OK.

IMO Artest has a chance to be all NBA defensive first team some day. >>

Before TAW hurt his knee(s?) he would be the surperior player. Griffen may or may not play again after the back surgery but he is the same size, more agile, better defensively AND can hit the open shot. Buck is better than Artest but shorter and more athletic. My opinion of course but according to me, that's three guys on the roster that renders Artest completely unnecessary.

mick · 06-22-2002, 09:48 AM

<< Before TAW hurt his knee(s?) he would be the surperior player. Griffen may or may not play again after the back surgery but he is the same size, more agile, better defensively AND can hit the open shot. Buck is better than Artest but shorter and more athletic. My opinion of course but according to me, that's three guys on the roster that renders Artest completely unnecessary. >>

NBA scouting report on Buckner
"6'4" 210 lbs. 9/16/76 The defensive specialist in a team not very much concerned about defense... Will guard anyone on the perimeter... Not the main offensive threat, of course, but someone you will have to take care of."

NBA scouting report on Griffen

"6'5' 215 lbs. 07/04/74 Superb defender on the ball... Can score, but that is not his main task in Dallas. "

NBA scouting report on TAW

"6'6" 223 lbs. 11/03/74 Underachiever... His jumper has not really improved over the past few seasons... And that is a concern when talking about a shooting guard... Has athletic skills."

NBA scouting report on Artest

"6'7'' 246 lbs. 11/13/79 You have to be worried if he is going to guard you... Steals quite a few balls... Getting better in the offensive end... His jumper and three-point shot accuracy have improved dramatically."

So, Artest is 3-5 years younger, healthier, taller, bigger, and more athletic. His upside is better, and he is showing improvement each year. I don't see the problem all of you seem to have with him, and yes, I have watched him play. Also watched Dirk the first two years in the league and saw him improve each year.

David · 06-22-2002, 03:01 PM

That's not too far off of what I said. Artest is about Griffen size. Griffen is a better offensive player. TAW is as good on offense and defense. Someone is saying TAW is 2 inches shorter than Artest. Is he? I don't know. I've never seen them side by side. I know Buckner is shorter but probably as good on defense and better on offense. Thus, the Mavs don't need Artest. He is too similar to what is already in place and the Mavs would be taking on Croshere's massive contract to boot. Also giving up an all-star type PG. The only reason I would consider that trade is the draft pick and that is too much to take on just to get the #14 pick. In my opinion.

Murphy3 · 06-22-2002, 04:12 PM

david, you're selling artest short in one area...he can slash to the basket really well..and with the mavs current team and with what he'd need to do offensively, there's a good chance he'd find more success offensively than he ever has..at least be more efficient

scooterj5 · 06-22-2002, 04:23 PM

I think Artest would be overkill with Buckner, Najera, Griffin, Abdul-Wahad and Finley already playing 2/3. We have enough defensive hustlers for that position, in fact we can't find minutes for these guys already. We need defence, however we need it in the post. (I do not want to EVER EVER see Vlade Divac score another uncontested layup against us)

Drbio · 06-22-2002, 04:33 PM

I think TAW will be a pleasant surprise to us all this year. Those knees are healed.

Artest slashes very well to the hoop and that would be a nice contribution to this team.

mick · 06-22-2002, 05:26 PM

David,

Artest is much closer to Najera size than he is to Griffen's size. He's two inches taller and 30 lbs. heavier than Griffen, plus he is more explosive to the basket. Not to mention the ability to stay on the floor.

When I read the comments on this and other forums, I am constantly amazed at how different people can watch the same game and see completely different, often opposite things.

David · 06-22-2002, 06:49 PM

So if you add Najera, that's ANOTHER reason the Mavs don't need Artest.

If you add it up, that's a defensive SF that can't shoot + overpaid, outside shooting, formerly over-rated, no-real-position player + #14 for a former all-star PG. I think I would pass.

I would come closer to dealing NVE for #14 alone. There would be no non-essential baggage, although I think you can get more for NVE.

If the Mavs make that trade, they miss out on the better trade that they can no longer make, because they've traded their most tradeable commodity for players that don't fit any of their needs.

Drbio · 06-22-2002, 08:10 PM

Najera re-signing with the Mavericks is no lock. San Antonio is hot and heavy for a shot at Eddie. He is a perfect fit there.

mick · 06-22-2002, 09:39 PM

<< If the Mavs make that trade, they miss out on the better trade that they can no longer make, because they've traded their most tradeable commodity for players that don't fit any of their needs >>

And that better trade is....?

Drbio · 06-23-2002, 12:27 AM

And that better trade is....?

Nellie's forte....

David · 06-23-2002, 07:52 AM

<<

<< If the Mavs make that trade, they miss out on the better trade that they can no longer make, because they've traded their most tradeable commodity for players that don't fit any of their needs >>

And that better trade is....? >>

That's for Nellie to find. There are a number of teams that need a PG. I would hazzard a guess that NVE is the best available proven PG. There is no need to jump out there and make a deal for players you don't need just to get a mid-first round pick.

David · 06-23-2002, 07:56 AM

<< Najera re-signing with the Mavericks is no lock. San Antonio is hot and heavy for a shot at Eddie. He is a perfect fit there. >>

I believe Najera has publicly stated his desire to remain a Mav. I, also, believe SA is over the cap so I doubt they can out bid yourdallasmavericks.

Drbio · 06-23-2002, 10:46 AM

I hope you are correct David, but the San Antonio boards are full of Eddie Najera posts. And the papers there are making him out to be a hometown hero.

FilthyFinMavs · 06-23-2002, 11:12 AM

<< I hope you are correct David, but the San Antonio boards are full of Eddie Najera posts. And the papers there are making him out to be a hometown hero. >>

Yea I here what ur sayin Orbio they are really luvin Najera. Now if they are over the cap im not sure but from what I hear Spurs are trying to sign Najera in case if the Malik Rose thing falls through.

David · 06-23-2002, 11:16 AM

Lots of things get said on the message boards and in the newspapers that don't come to pass. I'm guessing it's between Eduardo and the Mavs first. If things don't work out, I have to believe SA is the 2nd choice.

Murphy3 · 06-23-2002, 11:49 AM

artest is a much better defender than najera...

but, i think most of us agree that we'd rather see the mavs go after a big man instead of this indiana trade...

Drbio · 06-23-2002, 11:49 AM

First...I want Eddie to stay. Period. Unconditionally. But, it is a perfect fit for him in San Antonio. His style of play fits and he would be a star in that community as a Mexican player. I can't think of a single reason that he wouldn't want to be a part of that, other than he is fiercly loyal and he likes the Mavs.

mick · 06-23-2002, 12:54 PM

<< artest is a much better defender than najera...

but, i think most of us agree that we'd rather see the mavs go after a big man instead of this indiana trade... >>

And if you believe the NY papers, Nick was offered this week for Thomas and Ward.

mick · 06-23-2002, 12:58 PM

<<

<< I hope you are correct David, but the San Antonio boards are full of Eddie Najera posts. And the papers there are making him out to be a hometown hero. >>

Yea I here what ur sayin Orbio they are really luvin Najera. Now if they are over the cap im not sure but from what I hear Spurs are trying to sign Najera in case if the Malik Rose thing falls through. >>

If they didn't use the mid-level exemption, they have it available this year. They will be way under cap next year. So, you could offer him the mid-level this year and more the following. If Dallas mathces, he becomes an UFA the year after I believe, the same year that SA has all that cap space. It's possible that Dallas does a one-year rental.

Dooby · 06-23-2002, 02:09 PM

Signing Najera for longer than 1 year would hurt the fabled SA plan to resign Duncan and sign Jason Kidd or another premier free-agent at the same time.

So, any Najera to SA rumors are pure speculation. And I would consider such rumors unlikely.

Dooby · 06-23-2002, 02:24 PM

<< If they didn't use the mid-level exemption, they have it available this year. They will be way under cap next year. So, you could offer him the mid-level this year and more the following. If Dallas mathces, he becomes an UFA the year after I believe, the same year that SA has all that cap space. It's possible that Dallas does a one-year rental. >>

You totally misunderstand the CBA.

1) The mid-level exception is available every year. A team may sign a player (or players) for up to six years, provided that the salary per year does not exceed the median salary in the NBA (between 4-5 Million per year). They may use the exception each year regardless of whether they used it the previous year and regardless of the term of the previous year's contracts.

2) On the $1M exception may be used every other year.

3) Najera is a restricted free agent and the mavericks have early bird rights. the Mavs may offer or match up to the value of the mid-level exception on Najera without using the mid-level exception. SA can't offer more than that, so how are they going to get him? Only if we give him up.

4) While Najera could demand a one year deal from the Mavs, I don't see why he would do it. He isn't the healthiest guy. Financial security is important. Anyway, he doesn't need SA to help him get a one year deal.

5) SA will have a lot of cap space next year, yes. But why would they blow it on Eddie Najera? That is just moronic. After taking care of Duncan, they will have around $18M. They will make a run at Kidd. That will leave them about $6M to fill 8 roster spots. They are going to toss that money at Najera? I don't think so.

Drbio · 06-23-2002, 02:46 PM

And if you believe the NY papers, Nick was offered this week for Thomas and Ward.

Got any links Mick? Thanks.

Ghost Face · 06-23-2002, 03:02 PM

Go to www.realgm.com and read thru the headlines section. They make mention of the Van Exel deal in the Big Dog to NY section.

As for San Antonio, Tony Parker is the only player that is currently signed thru this next offseason(Duncan has a player option for free agency). That Ginoboli(?) guy will probably start out with a reasonable contract to bring the total of contracted players (thru 2003) to two. The large contracts that expire for them next year are David Robinson and Steve Smith. Antonio Daniels, Danny Ferry, Mark Bryant, Bruce Bowen, Charles Smith and Cherokee Parks all become free agents also. Signing Najera wouldn't damage their cap space that much because they can find cheaper help to replace many of the veterans they currently pay. With the Spurs moving into a new arena and the potential positive effects of signing Najera could have financialy, I wouldn't be suprised to see the Spurs increase their payroll significantly. I would venture to guess that his uniform would become immensely popular and they will be earning more revenue from home games.

Drbio · 06-23-2002, 03:03 PM

Thanks Ghost Face.

David Robinson will likely retire after next season. That will open up some expendable cash.

MavKikiNYC · 06-23-2002, 06:47 PM

NVE for Thomas and Ward?

Hell no. They aren't even retreads, those two. Totally bald tires. Thomas jilted Nellie once before. Given Nellie's long memory, I can't believe he'd welcome him back.

mick · 06-23-2002, 07:11 PM

<< And if you believe the NY papers, Nick was offered this week for Thomas and Ward.

Got any links Mick? Thanks. >>

Knicks Rumor Link

mick · 06-23-2002, 07:18 PM

<< As for San Antonio, Tony Parker is the only player that is currently signed thru this next offseason(Duncan has a player option for free agency). That Ginoboli(?) guy will probably start out with a reasonable contract to bring the total of contracted players (thru 2003) to two. The large contracts that expire for them next year are David Robinson and Steve Smith. Antonio Daniels, Danny Ferry, Mark Bryant, Bruce Bowen, Charles Smith and Cherokee Parks all become free agents also. Signing Najera wouldn't damage their cap space that much because they can find cheaper help to replace many of the veterans they currently pay. With the Spurs moving into a new arena and the potential positive effects of signing Najera could have financialy, I wouldn't be suprised to see the Spurs increase their payroll significantly. I would venture to guess that his uniform would become immensely popular and they will be earning more revenue from home games. >>

Ghost Face,
Thanks for the supporting facts. Some people want to ignore facts when stating their opinion, which is their right as a fan, but counterproductive when looking at things realistically. Sometimes I just give up trying to communicate with those who have unrealistic expectations or opinions, it's not worth the effort to me.

MavKikiNYC · 06-23-2002, 07:23 PM

<< Unconfirmed conjecture from a Dallas source advocates the Mavericks are offering Nick Van Exel to the Knicks for Kurt Thomas and Charlie Ward. Sounds logical to me. Why wouldn't Dallas' fragile frontage want an infusion of the brutality brandished by Thomas? At the same time, the fact they're so eager to separate themselves so soon from Van Exel should make James Dolan's nervous system reverberate. >>

Thanks for the link, Mick. Sounds shady--1) it's Vescey; 2) even he admits it's unconfirmed conjecture.

Can't believe Nellie would do this deal. Thomas is B-league all the way. Ward no longer even registers.

I still vote 'No sale'.

mick · 06-23-2002, 07:31 PM

<< Thanks for the link, Mick. Sounds shady--1) it's Vescey; 2) even he admits it's unconfirmed conjecture. Can't believe Nellie would do this deal. Thomas is B-league all the way. Ward no longer even registers. I still vote 'No sale'. >>

Totally agree about the Vescey reference which is why I said "if you believe the NY papers", yet several on this thread seem to think Thomas is the answer at the post. I wouldn't mind Ward as a backup PG if we had to take him as part of a deal for better talent from the Knicks, he is a good defender and he has a short contract, but he or Mark Jackson are the ONLY PGs I would consider from NYK, don't want Eisley. I also think Harrington would be a good role player here.

David · 06-23-2002, 08:37 PM

<<

<< artest is a much better defender than najera...

but, i think most of us agree that we'd rather see the mavs go after a big man instead of this indiana trade... >>

And if you believe the NY papers, Nick was offered this week for Thomas and Ward. >>

That makes sense for both teams. The Mavs get the tough inside player they are looking for and a backup PG. Of the three PGs in NY, I like Ward the best. The Knicks get Spree a partner in crime.

MavKikiNYC · 06-23-2002, 08:53 PM

Ward really isn't that tough an inside player.

Drbio · 06-23-2002, 09:08 PM

LOL.....Ward.

I don't make this trade. I think Thomas is a distraction waiting to happen. the first time Nellie would bench him for something, he would go off about it being Nellie revenge for him dissing the Mavs a few years ago.

Ghost Face · 06-23-2002, 09:12 PM

There are numerous trade possibilities between the Knicks and the Mavs. They seem like natural trade partners because they have opposite needs to fill(Mavs=post player,Knicks=legit point guard). If you don't like Ward than Jackson can be plugged into the deal with no problem. If the Knicks feel the need to add a true center and unload a little more money, Bradley and Shandon Anderson could be swapped as part of the deal. If the Mavs want extra incentive to make a deal with the Knicks then they could swap the 55th pick for the Knicks 36th pick.

I think Kurt Thomas can contribute for the Mavs, much moreso than Camby. Nellie wanted to keep him and was burned by Kurt, but it had little to do with Nellie and more to do with Kurt's perception of the cheap and pathetics Mavs of that time. Think of it this way, the Mavs would be getting rid of one player their coaching staff was willing to give a second chance (Del Harris & Van Exel) to give Nellie and Kurt a chance to try it again. I also think that adding Mark Jackson ,despite his age, could be a better addition than Ward.

MavKikiNYC · 06-23-2002, 09:27 PM

The thing against Mark Jackson would be that if the Mavs are trying to tighten their backcourt defense, Jax definitely isn't the man anymore. Too old, packin' too much butt, and too many steps slow.

Jax may be one of two players in the league that Mantis has a chance to take off the dribble. The other one would be Felton Spencer.

Drbio · 06-23-2002, 09:29 PM

Man that is harsh....

Ghost Face · 06-23-2002, 09:50 PM

The sad fact is that there aren't many point guards who are considered really good defenders and most of them are highly valued by their teams. Payton, Kidd, Stockton and Bobby Jackson are the main ones that come to mind. Baron Davis, Dre Miller, Darrel Armstrong, Alvin Williams and Rod Strickland are some of the next tier of defensive players (the lines begin to get really blurred) but most of these guys are either unattainable or just as old and undesirable as Jackson.

Jackson averaged almost 30 minutes a game for the Knicks last year and that is too much for an old man like him. If he was being asked to split backup duties than I would expect a little extra spring in his step, when called upon. He did post 7.4 assists per game and was #2 in the league in assist-turnover ratio last year while averaging around 4 rebounds and 1 steal per game(more than Nash or Van Exel). In instances, his basketball IQ is able to make up for his lack of quickness. This is something that Nash and some of the other Mavs could desperately use.

Drbio · 06-23-2002, 09:53 PM

Ghost Face- Are you saying Nash needs help in the basketball IQ department? If so, I think that is silly. I hope I am misunderstanding you here.