The NO major trade camp - I'm in.

[Male30Dan]

Thiggy - my apologies for copying your post from the Stephen A Smith thread and my reply, but this all translates here too and there will likely be way more visits to this thread so I want this point mentioned here as well... See the chain below all:

Originally Posted by jthig32

A contender for what? The playoffs? Maybe.

He's overrated because, while it's getting better, many fans still see raw scoring output and equate it to greatness, without considering what players have to do in order to accomplish their numbers. It's what lead people to fantastically overrate Allen Iverson and Gilbert Arenas, amongst others.

Carmelo is certainly not the chucker that those two players were, but he is very near the bottom of efficiency for the elite NBA scorers.

He's a great player but I don't think he's good enough to be the best player on a championship team, and I think most NBA fans would disagree, which is why I saw he's overrated.

Oh, and if he goes to New York, he will combine forces with another overrated NBA star (for different reasons) to play with the most overrated coach, and become a juggernaut of overratedness(probably not a real word).

Thiggy... I think the overrated piece you are hitting Amare with has been fairly proven wrong (i.e. he was only good because of Nash). Dude has been pretty stellar this year. His shooting percentage is down, sure, but he is still shooting over 50%. His scoring, assists, blocks, and steals are also up.

As far as Carmello being overrated due to him not being able to be the best player on a championship team, well, isn't that subjective for a lot of the past championship winners? What I mean is, aside from maybe the Heat team that beat us and the Lakers recently where there is just a TON of overall talent but really only one true superstar, haven't all championship teams pretty much had two or three guys that are considered fairly equal in overall talent?

KG/Allen/Pierce
Duncan/Parker/Manu
Shaq/Kobe
Billups/Hamilton/Prince/Wallace

In my opinion, you can really only win a championship if you have an absolute freakishly awesome stud player (Kobe with a lot of help, Jordan with another top-50 player in Pippen, Wade + refs, etc) or with a number of them. Sorry, but an older Billups, oft-injured Nene, Terry-like streak shooter Smith, etc is not a cast like these past championship teams have had - yet he has still made them very good. It is really the KG factor.

NOW - if you put Carmelo on a team with Dirk, a guy that many would call an equal to him, you have started to build something special like these other teams have accomplished. Keep enough talent around them and you have an absolute tremendous chance at winning a championship.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

Thiggy - my apologies for copying your post from the Stephen A Smith thread and my reply, but this all translates here too and there will likely be way more visits to this thread so I want this point mentioned here as well... See the chain below all:



Thiggy... I think the overrated piece you are hitting Amare with has been fairly proven wrong (i.e. he was only good because of Nash). Dude has been pretty stellar this year. His shooting percentage is down, sure, but he is still shooting over 50%. His scoring, assists, blocks, and steals are also up.

As far as Carmello being overrated due to him not being able to be the best player on a championship team, well, isn't that subjective for a lot of the past championship winners? What I mean is, aside from maybe the Heat team that beat us and the Lakers recently where there is just a TON of overall talent but really only one true superstar, haven't all championship teams pretty much had two or three guys that are considered fairly equal in overall talent?

KG/Allen/Pierce
Duncan/Parker/Manu
Shaq/Kobe
Billups/Hamilton/Prince/Wallace

In my opinion, you can really only win a championship if you have an absolute freakishly awesome stud player (Kobe with a lot of help, Jordan with another top-50 player in Pippen, Wade + refs, etc) or with a number of them. Sorry, but an older Billups, oft-injured Nene, Terry-like streak shooter Smith, etc is not a cast like these past championship teams have had - yet he has still made them very good. It is really the KG factor.

NOW - if you put Carmelo on a team with Dirk, a guy that many would call an equal to him, you have started to build something special like these other teams have accomplished. Keep enough talent around them and you have an absolute tremendous chance at winning a championship.

No one calls Carmelo equal to him. No one. Dirk is an MVP. He is a 10 time all-nba player. Three time 1st team all-nba.

Melo has never made 1st team all-nba. He's made 3rd team 3 times and 2nd once.

You really have no clue where guys stand in the NBA hiearchy.

[xrobx]

Originally Posted by CadBane

No one calls Carmelo equal to him. No one. Dirk is an MVP. He is a 10 time all-nba player. Three time 1st team all-nba.

Melo has never made 1st team all-nba. He's made 3rd team 3 times and 2nd once.

You really have no clue where guys stand in the NBA hiearchy.

actually a lot of people call carmelo equal/better than him. obviously they're all wrong... but they do it. case in point, melo started in the ASG over dirk.

[ThisCharmingFan]

Originally Posted by xrobx

actually a lot of people call carmelo equal/better than him. obviously they're all wrong... but they do it. case in point, melo started in the ASG over dirk.

I see their play as similar. Dunno how to explain it, but both have an accurate shot from mid to long range, even when it's contested. Melo's defense hasn't improved imo, while Dirk's seems better. Could be just the Chandler factor, though. Carmelo is just younger and he's far from decline. You notice that he is the star because he out plays his team. A lot of times Dirk isn't the star of the Mavericks show.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by ThisCharmingFan

I see their play as similar. Dunno how to explain it, but both have an accurate shot from mid to long range, even when it's contested. Melo's defense hasn't improved imo, while Dirk's seems better. Could be just the Chandler factor, though. Carmelo is just younger and he's far from decline. You notice that he is the star because he out plays his team. A lot of times Dirk isn't the star of the Mavericks show.

No.

Melo shoots an eFG% of 41% on jumpers.
Dirk has an eFG% of 56% on jumpers.

Both do not have an accurate jump shot. Melo does spend a lot of time in the mid-post, but he is far from a great jump shooter. And Dirk has been a good defender for a while now, Chandler or not.

Not sure what you mean by being the "star" of the team. Melo has a +5 net +/-. Dirk has a +22.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by xrobx

actually a lot of people call carmelo equal/better than him. obviously they're all wrong... but they do it. case in point, melo started in the ASG over dirk.

Who are "these people". If you mean Jo Schmo off the street, perhaps. I'm talking about actual coaches, players, GMs, basketball analysts, etc.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by CadBane

Who are "these people". If you mean Jo Schmo off the street, perhaps. I'm talking about actual coaches, players, GMs, basketball analysts, etc.

If you limit it to coaches and GM's then I think you're right.

Once you include players and analysts, however, I think you become very, very wrong.

Charles Barkley called Carmelo the best scorer in the league multiple times this weekend. The list of people taken ahead of Dirk in TNT's fantasy legends draft included Reggie Miller and Ray Allen. And heck, even when Kerr took him he kept referring to him as a great "shooter". Dirk is viewed, by many, many people, as a great shooter. Not as one of the best pure scorers the game has ever seen.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by jthig32

If you limit it to coaches and GM's then I think you're right.

Once you include players and analysts, however, I think you become very, very wrong.

Charles Barkley called Carmelo the best scorer in the league multiple times this weekend. The list of people taken ahead of Dirk in TNT's fantasy legends draft included Reggie Miller and Ray Allen. And heck, even when Kerr took him he kept referring to him as a great "shooter". Dirk is viewed, by many, many people, as a great shooter. Not as one of the best pure scorers the game has ever seen.

A couple things:

A. When Barkley calls Melo the "best scorer in the NBA" he's referring to the ease in which he scores. He's elaborated on this a lot. While I disagree with that notion, it's a distinction. He thinks Melo scores "easier" than Kobe, LBJ, etc. It doesn't mean he thinks they're better. In fact, one time I recall him specifically mentioning Melo NOT being on the level of Dirk (mentioned along with several other players).

B. You're putting way too much stock into a silly TNT all-star draft. The thing is mostly in jest (heck, one of the guys picked Kerr!) Steve Kerr is not a smart analyst, but I don't think even he believes Reggie or Allen is better than Dirk.

C. MVP and All-NBA ARE voted on by players, GMs, and NBA analysts. Given that Dirk finishes ahead of Melo in both on a yearly basis, I think you have your consensus.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by CadBane

No one calls Carmelo equal to him. No one. Dirk is an MVP. He is a 10 time all-nba player. Three time 1st team all-nba.

Melo has never made 1st team all-nba. He's made 3rd team 3 times and 2nd once.

You really have no clue where guys stand in the NBA hiearchy.

Actually they do tool. I don't. But many do.

[Male30Dan]

Originally Posted by CadBane

No one calls Carmelo equal to him. No one.

Who are "these people". If you mean Jo Schmo off the street, perhaps.

You are such an idiot.