Dirk for MVP - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

sixeightmkw · 03-01-2006, 11:37 AM

Still the best Mav to ever play. doesn't change that

Five-ofan · 03-01-2006, 12:13 PM

Why does it have to be in a few years? Dirk has played 10 more games as a mav than aguirre did.

aexchange · 03-01-2006, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixeightmkw

Did everyone forget about Aguirre? He is by far the best player ever at Dallas. It is a shame that management can't get it together to retire his jersey. Dirk and Blackmon are right there together. Dirk can become the best Mav of all time wth a few more years.

i watched aguirre all thru the years, and he was never a consistently big late game player that dirk is now.

and he was a tool, personally and professionally. give me dirk or blackmon any day.

orangedays · 03-01-2006, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aexchange

i watched aguirre all thru the years, and he was never a consistently big late game player that dirk is now.

and he was a tool, personally and professionally. give me dirk or blackmon any day.

Hahaha...I'm too young to have seen the guy play but this is the best argument I've read all thread.

Nemesis · 03-01-2006, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aexchange

i watched aguirre all thru the years, and he was never a consistently big late game player that dirk is now.

and he was a tool, personally and professionally. give me dirk or blackmon any day.

I totally agree with your character assessment. He was one selfish bastard.

But, man I don't remember anything less than a cutthroat on the court. It was Stackhouse *Pi*2^10 on any given night. Only a few mediocre playoff performances in his career that he seems to be most remembered for. Tell me who didn't have the McDonalds life-size poster of Aguire in there room who was a Mavericks fan in that time?

Its time they made one of those for Dirk. (in harmony with this thread)

Thespiralgoeson · 03-01-2006, 07:12 PM

Dirk is already the Mavs' all-time leading rebounder, and it's pretty much guaranteed that he will be the all-time leading scorer soon enough. He's leader of the team and the face of the franchise in a way that Aguirre never was.

Aguirre- 3 time all-star
Dirk- 5 time all-star

Dirk- first team all-NBA 2004-2005
Aguirre- first team all-NBA never

Dirk's career numbers- 21.3 ppg 8.5 rpg 2.5 apg
Aguirres career numbers- 20.0 ppg 5.0 rpg. 3.1 apg

Dirk > Aguirre.

sixeightmkw · 03-01-2006, 07:25 PM

good stats, but they played in different eras of basketball. Basketball has changed alot since the 80's. but who cares. don't feel like getting in an arguement over this.

Thespiralgoeson · 03-01-2006, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixeightmkw

good stats, but they played in different eras of basketball. Basketball has changed alot since the 80's. but who cares. don't feel like getting in an arguement over this.

If anything, the fact that Aguirre played in the 80's is an even further evidence that Dirk is clearly a better player than Aguirre was. The game was much more fast-paced, and much more high-scoring.

sixeightmkw · 03-01-2006, 07:44 PM

ok, fine, Aguirre in not even in the converstation. Dirk is the best. I don't care, just everyone is talking about the best Mav of all time and mentioning Blackmon and such, and no one even mentions Aguirre? What is up with that. He was a great player for the mavs, if not the best, second best.

Thespiralgoeson · 03-01-2006, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixeightmkw

ok, fine, Aguirre in not even in the converstation. Dirk is the best. I don't care, just everyone is talking about the best Mav of all time and mentioning Blackmon and such, and no one even mentions Aguirre? What is up with that. He was a great player for the mavs, if not the best, second best.

Derek Harper voted for Aguirre

But you said Aguirre was BY FAR the best player in team history. I can't see how anyone would come to that conclusion.

dude1394 · 03-01-2006, 08:22 PM

Dirk is far and away the best maverick. In fact if I had to list them it would probably be..

dirk, ro, finley, aguirre, harper, nash. Aguirre, harper, nash are all pretty lumped together imo.

sixeightmkw · 03-01-2006, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Derek Harper voted for Aguirre

But you said Aguirre was BY FAR the best player in team history. I can't see how anyone would come to that conclusion.

In my opinion he was the best. Everything comes back to stats with everyone on here. To me, in this matter, I don't care. I think he is the best, what he meant to me when I was a little kid growing up watching him play. He was my favorite, and will be the best in my eyes.

Five-ofan · 03-01-2006, 10:57 PM

Thats fine. Honestly dirk is that guy for me. I am 20. I grew up with the three js but they turned out to be assholes and dirk seems like a nice guy. I was still only like 12 or 13 when he joined the mavs so for the majority of my adolescence he has been my favorite athlete. The guy most associated with that he was my hero growing up thing i have seen is mickey mantle in baseball. Pretty much half the people in the country who were young when mantle was in his prime hold him in demigod status. My dad is one of them. I disagree with your opinion that aguirre is better than dirk but it doesnt bother me that you have it. The only thing that bothers me is when people say when dirk is done he will be since he has already played more than aguirre did with the mavs.

Thespiralgoeson · 03-01-2006, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixeightmkw

Everything comes back to stats with everyone on here. To me, in this matter, I don't care. I think he is the best, what he meant to me when I was a little kid growing up watching him play. He was my favorite, and will be the best in my eyes.

It's fine if you think Aguirre is the best. But "by far." You have to justify it. You say "everything comes back to stats with everyone on here." Well yes... What else are we supposed to use to back up our views? Winning percentages? I know Dirk came here when the team still sucked, but not looking them up, I'm pretty sure they're close.

Dirk is the first and only Maverick ever to be selected to the All-NBA first-team. That to me is much more meaningful than any statistic.

Again, I don't have a problem with someone believing Aguirre was the best Mav. It's just the way you put it; "by far." Then I bring up the stats, the all-star/all-nba selections, and you use the "stats aren't everything, I don't care, he was the best" stance. Really, what else does someone have to go on, besides winning percentage, career accolades, and stats?

Stats aren't everything... fine. But they sure as hell aren't nothing either. You can't begrudge someone for looking to the stats when comparing two players.

dude1394 · 03-01-2006, 11:24 PM

If you want to say he's your favorite maverick no matter stats, that's fine. I like eddie najera too, but don't think he would quite match-up game wise.

Five-ofan · 03-01-2006, 11:28 PM

Im gonna make a guess at what he means, aguirre was his favorite mav when he was younger and/or when he started watching bball. You will always think that guy was better than he actually was. Im that way with will clark in baseball. He will always be my favorite ranger though mike young is pushing him so i guess i shouldnt say always. Yes favorite is more appropriate but because of them being your favorite, you think they were the best too. This isnt that odd of an occurrence.

sixeightmkw · 03-02-2006, 09:41 AM

Ok, Aguirre was one of the most prolific scoroers in the NBA in his first 5 years with the Mavs, he was never out of the top 5 in scoring those same years, except for one year I think he was 10th in scoring. While Aguirre was with the Mavs, he was one of THE best players in the NBA. So i guess what I am saying is, if your one of the best in the NBA, then you must be best on the Mavs. Blackmon never came close to averaging per game what Aguirre did, and Harper, not even in the picture. Dirk is the only other Mav that can be in discussion in the greatest Mav. Pleae go check the stats on him, as well as what the leading scorers averaged per game. 28 to 30 points in the early 80's would win you the scoring title. That will get you 4th or 5th nowadays. So don't tell me that the game was more fast paced and players back then scored more, cause they didn't. Just becuase he wronged the team a long time ago and everybody has hard feelings toward him doesn't mean he was one of the top 2 players to ever play for the mavs.

jthig32 · 03-02-2006, 10:05 AM

Well, actually, he was only in the top 5 scoring once.

82-83 - 24.4 - 6th
83-84 - 29.5 - 2nd
84-85 - 25.7 - 8th
85-86 - 22.6 - 12th
86-87 - 25.7 - 7th
87-88 - 25.1 - 8th

Also, since you asked:
Average PPG of leading scorer from 82-83 to 87-88: 32.38

Average PPG of leading scorer from 97-98 to 02-03: 29.97

If you put in the last two years, that probably goes up a little, but I wanted to stop at the same number of years.

sixeightmkw · 03-02-2006, 10:17 AM

so he wasn't one of the best in the NBA in the early 80's? is that what everyone is saying? He competed with Jordan, Wilkins, Bird, Dantley, Vandewegh, some of the best scoreers in the history of the game, and he was there with all of them,. and Aguirre wasn't one of the best Mavs ever?
the average from 82 till 86 was 30.5 ppg. then Jordan came along and began a new era of basketball and began scoring tons of points.
And excuse me, he was out of the top 8scorers in those years, players like Bird, Wilkins, Dantley, George Gervin, Moses Malone. Those are just a few of the names that were either one to two names above him or below him in scoring.
Your right, he wasn't very good, Blackman and Harper and Nash and Finley are all better than Aguirre. Excuse me.

jthig32 · 03-02-2006, 10:27 AM

I never said anything of the sort, so don't be yelling at me (if you were) You asked for stats and I provided them.

Certainly he was one of the better scorers in the NBA for a 6 year span. And certainly he is one of the best Mavs of all time. But you claimed he was EASILY the best Mav ever, and that's simply not true. I would imagine, if you asked for a list of the top 5 Mavs of all time, he'd be on just about every list.

Fair enough?

sixeightmkw · 03-02-2006, 10:38 AM

Ok, Aguirre and Dirk are the about the same, for right now. They have done about the same stuff in their careers thus far for the Mavs. What I was saying way up there was that Dirk WILL be the best Mav of all time. Once he takes the scoring title away from Blackman, stuff like that, then I feel he will be the best. But not right now. Aguirre is right now to me. But Dirk will be. and I wasn't yelling. I love Elmo.

orangedays · 03-02-2006, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixeightmkw

Ok, Aguirre and Dirk are the about the same, for right now. They have done about the same stuff in their careers thus far for the Mavs. What I was saying way up there was that Dirk WILL be the best Mav of all time. Once he takes the scoring title away from Blackman, stuff like that, then I feel he will be the best. But not right now. Aguirre is right now to me. But Dirk will be. and I wasn't yelling. I love Elmo.

Awwwww...

LRB · 03-02-2006, 11:28 AM

Trouble with Aguirre was he was an incredibly disruptive force on the Mavs. His attitude and antics kept the team from being ever truely approaching their potential. Dirk is almost a polar opposite in this area. Also, while Dirk isn't exactly All-NBA defensive team material, he would appear so when compared to Aguirre.

If I had to choose the top Mavs that I'd want to have on the team where I was a player or coach, Aguirre wouldn't even make the inactive list. And the reason would be plain and simple his prima donna attitude. Dirk however would be my very 1st pick.

Also, there have been very few players who have had more of an impact as far as changing the NBA game of basketball than Dirk; And all of them are either hall of famers or are just waiting until they become eligible to be voted in. BTW none of them every wore a Mavs uni.

sixeightmkw · 03-02-2006, 11:31 AM

so, taking the team to the Western Conference semi-Finals, averaging 116 ppg isn't aaproching their potential? Sorry, but no one was beating LA in those years, just like no one was beating LA a few years back. Funny how when he left the Mavs, he won 2 back to back championships with Detroit. must not have been that bad of a prima donna there.

Murphy3 · 03-02-2006, 11:37 AM

Many don't consider Aguirre the clear cut best player on those teams.... There's no doubt who the best Mav is or has been for the past few years.

aexchange · 03-02-2006, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Many don't consider Aguirre the clear cut best player on those teams.... There's no doubt who the best Mav is or has been for the past few years.

indeed. wasnt there some talk of tarpley or blackmon being the best player on those late 80s mavs teams?

sixeightmkw · 03-02-2006, 11:52 AM

Tarpley wasn't drafted till mid 80's. The mid 80's Mavs were the best. Blackman was great, but not better than Aguirre. he was always second or third in scoring on the Mavs roster. Everybody on those teams were good though. Aguirre is like the Dirk of today (as in biggest scoring threat), Blackmon like the Howard of today.

Five-ofan · 03-02-2006, 11:59 AM

As to tarpley if he hadnt had drug problems he would have been amazing. He is without question the most TALENTED player ever to play for the mavs. That said he isnt anywhere near the best player ever for the mavs. I have a test in 2 minutes so i got to go.

Mavdog · 03-02-2006, 12:07 PM

Game 7, WCF. June, 1988. Mark Aguirre sits out the last 9 minutes of period 4 with a finger injury on his non-shooting hand, mavs lose to the lakers.

Game 4, WC semis, May, 2001. Dirk Nowitzki loses his two(?) front teeth, goes to the locker room, and comes back for the final 4 minutes of the game. mavs win.

nuff said.

LRB · 03-02-2006, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixeightmkw

so, taking the team to the Western Conference semi-Finals, averaging 116 ppg isn't aaproching their potential? Sorry, but no one was beating LA in those years, just like no one was beating LA a few years back. Funny how when he left the Mavs, he won 2 back to back championships with Detroit. must not have been that bad of a prima donna there.

Yes loosing in the western conference semi finals for that Mavs team wasn't approaching their potential. BTW they wouldn't have played the Lakers until the conference finals if they had played near their potentail, which happened only once. That mavs team was loaded with talent at every position and at all the backups. No reason that they couldn't have won 60+ games.

And LA was beatable. Philly, Boston, Houston, and Detroit all showed that during the 80's. However a team had to be 1) very good and 2) play at or extremely near their best to beat LA. With Aguirre the Mavs met the 1st qualification, but failed at the 2nd.

Mark won 2 titles on a team that in all likely hood would have won without him. He also took a backseat to other stars and severly restricted his scoring and minutes. Aguirre was at most the 3rd best player on those piston teams and was probably lower than that. But hey, even the Bulls won 3 straight with Rodman at his most disruptive. All it takes is a strong star/leader and coach to keep the prima donna in line.

Also, if Dirk had played in the 80's he would have lit it up. If Aguirre played today, he'd struggle terrible with the overall athletism of the players. I doubt that he would play significant minutes for most teams in the NBA. His lack of quickness, height, and athletism would be a huge handicap now unlike it was in the 80's where height, quickness, and ahletism were on average much lower.

sixeightmkw · 03-02-2006, 12:24 PM

Like I said, they played in Different Era's of basketball. But this is turning out like the Bradley argument, so. nevermind. and if you really think that the Mavs were better than the Lakers in the 80's, then whoo. I don't know what to say about that.

sixeightmkw · 03-02-2006, 12:36 PM

All I know is that the 80's Mavs, the one that actually played well in the playoffs were a bunch of very young players. There were a few vets on the team, but the most of the best players were rookies, 2nd and 3rd year players. To say that they didn't live up to their potential is ludicrous. They faced a dynasty in the Laker 2 times. Yes the Mavs were good, but they were young and inexperieced. The other teams that beat the Lakers were also dynasties, great teams in b-ball history. Thats like asking Devin, Josh, Quisy, Diop, Powell, Marshall to go out there and beat the detroits and the san antonios of today.

LRB · 03-02-2006, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixeightmkw

Like I said, they played in Different Era's of basketball. But this is turning out like the Bradley argument, so. nevermind. and if you really think that the Mavs were better than the Lakers in the 80's, then whoo. I don't know what to say about that.

1. You don't have to be better than another team to beat them, you just have to play better. No, I don't think that the Mavs were better than the Lakers, but I do think that it was possible that they could have beaten them. Maybe not every year, but I do think that if they had played up to their potential they certainly should have been there knocking on the door every year and would have likely got by the Lakers at least 1 year. Trouble was that Aguirre just wasn't the type of star that you want to build around to win a championship. His attitude sucked and he was always a detriment to the teams focus.

Also, note that Aguirre won his only championships on a team built around other stars with Mark being a role player.

sixeightmkw · 03-02-2006, 01:13 PM

Agree. good post.

LRB · 03-02-2006, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixeightmkw

All I know is that the 80's Mavs, the one that actually played well in the playoffs were a bunch of very young players. There were a few vets on the team, but the most of the best players were rookies, 2nd and 3rd year players. To say that they didn't live up to their potential is ludicrous. They faced a dynasty in the Laker 2 times. Yes the Mavs were good, but they were young and inexperieced. The other teams that beat the Lakers were also dynasties, great teams in b-ball history. Thats like asking Devin, Josh, Quisy, Diop, Powell, Marshall to go out there and beat the detroits and the san antonios of today.

Of the teams to beat the Lakers in the playoffs in the 80's, only the Celtics could be legitimately called a dynasty. The Sixers team that beat the Lakers won only 1 title. Both Houston teams that beat the Lakers never won a title. The Pistons did win 2 titles, but that's hardly a dynasty. There were only 2 legit dynasties in the 80's, LA and Boston.

Your argument over the youth of the Mavs at that time is without much merit. The Mavs had a great mix of vets and youth and had all the makings of being a long time title contender. However the team imploded. You even admit that the vets didn't play up to potential, which is a big part of the team not playing up to potential. As a leader Aguirre was horrible and a total detriment to team chemistry. He was as selfish as Kobe with a heck of a lot less talent.

I will give you that Aguirre was a talented player for the era he played in as far as basketball skills and the ability to compile stats. However, while on the Mavs he had to the star, and he couldn't lead worth dog crap. It's because of that leadership ability that many, myself included, but Blackman and Harper over Agruirre in rating the Mavs best players.

mary · 03-21-2006, 11:09 PM

The TNT crew was giving Dirk tons of MVP love tonight.

He's Kenny's MVP and Chucky believes it should go to either Nash or Dirk.

Where the hell are the chants? I want to hear some chanting dammit.

Drbio · 03-21-2006, 11:11 PM

I wish we would get our fans off their collective asses and hear them yelling, "Dirk-V-P!!!!"

Thespiralgoeson · 03-22-2006, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

The TNT crew was giving Dirk tons of MVP love tonight.

He's Kenny's MVP and Chucky believes it should go to either Nash or Dirk.

Where the hell are the chants? I want to hear some chanting dammit.

I was SHOCKED to hear Kenny say that Dirk was his pick for MVP. Very pleasantly shocked. Not that I put much stock that moron's opinion, but at least it reassured me that Dirk is so obviously the MVP that even a blind monkey can see that.

rakesh.s · 03-22-2006, 01:20 AM

someone at TNT with half a brain, like Ernie Johnson, probably showed kenny and charles the footage of them constantly bashing the mavs and how foolish they've looked..

now they're backtracking..What happened kenny and charles hanging on duncan's nutsack?

I love how Kenny picks one play and all of a sudden Dirk is MVP..Earth to jackass! He's been doing that all year.

Thespiralgoeson · 03-22-2006, 02:08 AM

Looks like we spoke too soon. After the Phoenix/Utah game, they were talking about the playoff picture in the west. Ernie was trying to get Charles to concede that a lower-seeded team would rather play Denver than San Antonio or Dallas and Charles, like the moron he is, said "Until Dallas proves it to me in the playoffs, they're not a lock."

Uh, come again? Not a lock for what, Charles? Not a lock to get out of the first f*cking round? I guess the Mavericks have never "proven" that they can make it to the second round? Ugh, maybe I'm being too hard on him. I guess you just can't help it if you're an idiot.