Top 25 Greatest Players Ever

[kingmalaki]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

If the argument is Dirk vs. Malone, I'll go ahead and skip the extended stats and go straight to the eyeball test. Admittedly, my eyes might be a bit biased, but I gotta go with Dirk. The thing that Dirk has over just about any other power forward in the history of the game is the ability to consistently create his own shot. I can't immediately think of any any other PF ever who could create offense the way Dirk can. Indeed, few players in history of ANY position have been able to score on their own as proficiently and prolifically as Dirk can. It's the reason he's even in the same league as someone like Duncan, and the reason he's better than Garnett (both of whom outstrip Dirk in virtually ever other facet of the game.)

Malone was absolutely phenomenal off the pick-and-roll. Maybe the best pick-and-roll PF ever. Beyond that, however, his offense was a bit limited. It would be interesting to see (and I'm sure someone who was motivated enough could find this out) what percentage of Malone's total points throughout his career came off of P'n'R assists from Stockton. Pretty much anyone will concede that Stockton was one of the greatest P'n'R point guards ever, and Malone had him for his entire career (save for that last year he spent with the Lakers.)

I seriously doubt Malone could've scored at the same rate or efficiency if he'd been stuck with the mediocre guard play that Dirk has had ever since Nash left for Phoenix. Conversely we can only wonder how much better Dirk's numbers would be if he had one of the all-time greats in his backcourt through his whole career. Imagine if Dirk had gotten to play with Stockton, or a young Jason Kidd or even if Nash had re-signed in Dallas. It's impossible to know for sure, but common sense tells me that Dirk's numbers would be even better.

This is a very good post. I don't think Malone's offensive game was limited but he did have the advantage of playing with a great PG for his entire career. However, Barkley and McHale were just as good at creating their own shots as Dirk is. Their offensive games were just different. In the case of Barkley, he didn't always have good PG play and he had crazy efficiency. Although I will admit his peak wasn't as long as Dirk's.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

This is a very good post. I don't think Malone's offensive game was limited but he did have the advantage of playing with a great PG for his entire career.

Well, I only mean he was limited comparatively speaking; i.e. compared to Dirk. I think the player in today's NBA whose offensive game reminds me the most of Malone is Amare. Absolutely lethal off the pick and roll, and an excellent mid-range shooter for his position. But Amare (like Malone) isn't going to consistently create something off the dribble and hit an array of pump-fakes, turn-arounds, up-and-unders etc... EDIT: Don't get me wrong, Malone was a far, far better player than Amare. I'm just saying Amare reminds me a bit of Malone.

However, Barkley and McHale were just as good at creating their own shots as Dirk is. Their offensive games were just different.

They were both very, very good, but not quite as good as Dirk (just my opinion of course.) The McHale comparison is an interesting one. Kevin McHale happens to be one of my all-time favorite players, and indeed I think I'm the only one in this thread who even mentioned him, let alone had him in my top 25. Flat-out amazing low-post scorer. However his career numbers/accolades just don't hold up to Dirk's. He only made the All-NBA team once in his entire career (first team in '87). That's a far cry from from Dirk's eleven all-NBA selections, four of them for the first team, not to mention that Dirk has played in an era full of great forwards. Although in fairness, there was no third team when McHale was in his prime. Still, when it comes to individual accomplishments, McHale falls a bit short of the other three guys on the list (Dirk, Malone, and Barkley.)

In the case of Barkley, he didn't always have good PG play and he had crazy efficiency. Although I will admit his peak wasn't as long as Dirk's.

Barkley was truly a unique player. To this day it both amazes and puzzles me how he was able to dominate the game the way he did being so undersized for his position. And yes, crazy efficient. Still, as far as scoring ability goes, I would once again give the edge to Dirk. Barkley, like Malone, was not someone who had a massive arsenal of unguardable shots, or go-to moves. Nor could he score from anywhere on the floor like Dirk does. He wasn't someone whom teams would gear their entire defensive gameplan just to try to slow down, as so many teams have done so (unsuccessfully) against Dirk. Never was this more profound than the 2006 semifinals when the Spurs, one of the most dominant defensive teams in league history, went small for almost the entire series because they were terrified of having a big man stuck guarding Dirk. I don't think any team, let alone a truly great defensive team, threw out their entire defensive philosophy to guard Barkley.

However, what Sir Charles did have over Dirk was rebounding and passing skills that put Dirk's to shame. Again, his rebounding was truly amazing considering how small he was. And his passing skills were phenomenal too. Easily as good as Kevin Garnett's or Chris Webber's.

It's a tough call for me on Dirk vs. Malone/Barkley, but in the end Dirk gets my vote simply based on my own opinions of how he impacts the game, and moreover the nature of the game itself (same with the Hakeem/Shaq argument.) Totally subjective, and an argument for either of the two, or both, over Dirk would be perfectly valid. Objectively though, McHale has to be a little bit lower on the list than any of the other three. And that's tough for me to say because I've always loved his game, but any way you slice it his accomplishments just don't quite measure up to the others'.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Well, I only mean he was limited comparatively speaking; i.e. compared to Dirk. I think the player in today's NBA whose offensive game reminds me the most of Malone is Amare. Absolutely lethal off the pick and roll, and an excellent mid-range shooter for his position. But Amare (like Malone) isn't going to consistently create something off the dribble and hit an array of pump-fakes, turn-arounds, up-and-unders etc... EDIT: Don't get me wrong, Malone was a far, far better player than Amare. I'm just saying Amare reminds me a bit of Malone.



They were both very, very good, but not quite as good as Dirk (just my opinion of course.) The McHale comparison is an interesting one. Kevin McHale happens to be one of my all-time favorite players, and indeed I think I'm the only one in this thread who even mentioned him, let alone had him in my top 25. Flat-out amazing low-post scorer. However his career numbers/accolades just don't hold up to Dirk's. He only made the All-NBA team once in his entire career (first team in '87). That's a far cry from from Dirk's eleven all-NBA selections, four of them for the first team, not to mention that Dirk has played in an era full of great forwards. Although in fairness, there was no third team when McHale was in his prime. Still, when it comes to individual accomplishments, McHale falls a bit short of the other three guys on the list (Dirk, Malone, and Barkley.)



Barkley was truly a unique player. To this day it both amazes and puzzles me how he was able to dominate the game the way he did being so undersized for his position. And yes, crazy efficient. Still, as far as scoring ability goes, I would once again give the edge to Dirk. Barkley, like Malone, was not someone who had a massive arsenal of unguardable shots, or go-to moves. Nor could he score from anywhere on the floor like Dirk does. He wasn't someone whom teams would gear their entire defensive gameplan just to try to slow down, as so many teams have done so (unsuccessfully) against Dirk. Never was this more profound than the 2006 semifinals when the Spurs, one of the most dominant defensive teams in league history, went small for almost the entire series because they were terrified of having a big man stuck guarding Dirk. I don't think any team, let alone a truly great defensive team, threw out their entire defensive philosophy to guard Barkley.

However, what Sir Charles did have over Dirk was rebounding and passing skills that put Dirk's to shame. Again, his rebounding was truly amazing considering how small he was. And his passing skills were phenomenal too. Easily as good as Kevin Garnett's or Chris Webber's.

It's a tough call for me on Dirk vs. Malone/Barkley, but in the end Dirk gets my vote simply based on my own opinions of how he impacts the game, and moreover the nature of the game itself (same with the Hakeem/Shaq argument.) Totally subjective, and an argument for either of the two, or both, over Dirk would be perfectly valid. Objectively though, McHale has to be a little bit lower on the list than any of the other three. And that's tough for me to say because I've always loved his game, but any way you slice it his accomplishments just don't quite measure up to the others'.

Nice post, but just to clarify, Barkley was a much better offensive rebounder than Dirk, but he was only a slightly better defensive rebounder. People forget just how dominant a defensive rebounder Dirk was in his prime.

For their careers, Dirk has a 22% DRB% vs. Barkley's 23.7% (although oddly enough, Barkley's DRB is inflated by his later years where his went up, whereas in Dirk's later years they went down!)

In the playoffs Barkley was at 25.3% vs. Dirk's 24.8%.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by CadBane

Nice post, but just to clarify, Barkley was a much better offensive rebounder than Dirk, but he was only a slightly better defensive rebounder. People forget just how dominant a defensive rebounder Dirk was in his prime.

For their careers, Dirk has a 22% DRB% vs. Barkley's 23.7% (although oddly enough, Barkley's DRB is inflated by his later years where his went up, whereas in Dirk's later years they went down!)

In the playoffs Barkley was at 25.3% vs. Dirk's 24.8%.

Nice stat-grab. That is quite odd that their numbers went in those directions. Dirk was obviously never a very good offensive rebounder because he played much further from the basket than most big men do. You'd think his offensive rebounding numbers would've gone up a bit as he's played much closer to the basket in recent years, but no.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Nice stat-grab. That is quite odd that their numbers went in those directions. Dirk was obviously never a very good offensive rebounder because he played much further from the basket than most big men do. You'd think his offensive rebounding numbers would've gone up a bit as he's played much closer to the basket in recent years, but no.

What's really odd to me is that Barkley's defensive rebounding went up in his older years.

Barkley was really at his offensive peak from 22-28. However, during that span, his highest DRB% was only 25.4% (lower than Dirk's best year).

After that:

29: 26.3%
30: 25.6%
31: 26.8%
32: 25%
33: 27.7%
34: 28.8% (career high at 34!)
35: 25.1%

His first 8 years top out at 25.4%, but his last 7 he tops that 5 times! Strange indeed.

(I didn't count his final year where he only played 20 games.)

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by CadBane

What's really odd to me is that Barkley's defensive rebounding went up in his older years.

Barkley was really at his offensive peak from 22-28. However, during that span, his highest DRB% was only 25.4% (lower than Dirk's best year).

After that:

29: 26.3%
30: 25.6%
31: 26.8%
32: 25%
33: 27.7%
34: 28.8% (career high at 34!)
35: 25.1%

His first 8 years top out at 25.4%, but his last 7 he tops that 5 times! Strange indeed.

(I didn't count his final year where he only played 20 games.)

Maybe Hakeem was boxing out for him on every play? Who knows.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by CadBane

What's really odd to me is that Barkley's defensive rebounding went up in his older years.

Barkley was really at his offensive peak from 22-28. However, during that span, his highest DRB% was only 25.4% (lower than Dirk's best year).

After that:

29: 26.3%
30: 25.6%
31: 26.8%
32: 25%
33: 27.7%
34: 28.8% (career high at 34!)
35: 25.1%

His first 8 years top out at 25.4%, but his last 7 he tops that 5 times! Strange indeed.

(I didn't count his final year where he only played 20 games.)

Some stats are greatly affected by the personnel on the floor, and rebounding is definitely one of them...

Take Dirk, for example - sure his boards have naturally declined with age, but adding ace rebounders like Kidd and Marion around him have undoubtedly reduced the amount of rebounds he NEEDS to grab.

I don't have the time to comb through Barkley's squads, but I wonder if a change of personnel forced him to grab more boards, opposite of Dirk? That might be one way to explain the anomaly...

[kingmalaki]

Originally Posted by CadBane

What's really odd to me is that Barkley's defensive rebounding went up in his older years.

Barkley was really at his offensive peak from 22-28. However, during that span, his highest DRB% was only 25.4% (lower than Dirk's best year).

After that:

29: 26.3%
30: 25.6%
31: 26.8%
32: 25%
33: 27.7%
34: 28.8% (career high at 34!)
35: 25.1%

His first 8 years top out at 25.4%, but his last 7 he tops that 5 times! Strange indeed.

(I didn't count his final year where he only played 20 games.)

Can you give me a little more info on DRB%, exactly what it tells you and why it should be used over a raw number like rpg? I ask because going by the raw numbers, Barkley avg 7.7 drpg for his career. Dirk's career avg for total rebounds is 8.4.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

Can you give me a little more info on DRB%, exactly what it tells you and why it should be used over a raw number like rpg? I ask because going by the raw numbers, Barkley avg 7.7 drpg for his career. Dirk's career avg for total rebounds is 8.4.

Why are you stating Dirk's total RPG? That's irrelevant.

His defensive RPG career is 7.2.....that's 0.5 behind Barkley...which is right in line with their respective DRB%.

Defensive Rebound Percentage (available since the 1970-71 season in the NBA); the formula is 100 * (DRB * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm DRB + Opp ORB)). Defensive rebound percentage is an estimate of the percentage of available defensive rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor.