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Old 12-06-2010, 02:51 PM   #121
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16-4 teams on 9 game win streaks don't make trades like this
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Old 12-06-2010, 04:49 PM   #122
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16-4 teams on 9 game win streaks don't make trades like this
you're probably correct. a deal isn't likely especially since getting Roddy back is essentially adding a difference maker for nothing. but the truth remains Caron was playing the worst ball of his career up till about a week- week and a half ago. you could make the argument that Caron is the weak link chemistry-wise as he hasn't played well within the offense, doesnt compliment Dirk and apparently needs to be a starter to validate his ego and contract push. when he doesnt have the ball he's usually standing still. when he does have the ball he's dribbling to create space, with his head down, for his eventual jumper and the rest of the team stands because they know no pass is coming.

even if Caron could keep up his supposedly "torrid" pace it would still be about what was expected of him or less. he hardly is a factor on the glass anymore and doesn't create for others. he's a decent defender. he's like a taller Jamal Crawford w/out the range or handles at this point.
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Old 12-06-2010, 05:47 PM   #123
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when he does have the ball he's dribbling to create space, with his head down, for his eventual jumper and the rest of the team stands because they know no pass is coming.
i've seen butler make a few nice passes this year. maybe if the rest of the team didn't stand around when he gets the ball like you said, they'd get a pass every once in a while
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Old 12-06-2010, 05:52 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by xrobx View Post
16-4 teams on 9 game win streaks don't make trades like this
IMO this is a better deal for the mavs and worth looking at. We'll know more once we go on our first losing streak...

IMO however having a two-way playmaker would be pretty dang sweet. Especially one that has more defense as well.
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Old 12-06-2010, 05:56 PM   #125
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i've seen butler make a few nice passes this year. maybe if the rest of the team didn't stand around when he gets the ball like you said, they'd get a pass every once in a while
I don't see it, it's not instinctual like it was with stackhouse. Possibly they might, but I just haven't seen much to think he'll be anywhere near impactful assist wise.

His career leans on my side as well. 2.9 apg average..and that's skewed by his 07-09 years when he topped 4.0 apg playing ~40mpg. It's been dropping ever since.

Edit: Versus Andre's 4.6 career and going up this year...
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Old 12-06-2010, 07:31 PM   #126
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Iggy >>>>>>>>>> Butler.
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Old 12-06-2010, 07:34 PM   #127
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Iggy >>>>>>>>>> Butler.
That's a bit of an exaggeration...

More like Iggy >>>> Butler.


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Old 12-06-2010, 07:34 PM   #128
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Iggy >>>>>>>>>> Butler.
Absolutely. If ever there was a place to insert my hated "This." comment it is here.
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Old 12-06-2010, 07:35 PM   #129
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Kidd
Roddy
Iggy
Dirk
T.Y.

That would be awesome starting lineup, but does Cuban anything know fans want Andre here?
Iggy would perfect fit here, finish passes from Kidd in the same style as Roddy year ago.
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Old 12-06-2010, 09:23 PM   #130
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The problem I see other than my opinion on Iggy is we don't have a middle ground offer. I don't think Butler/Stevenson/ DJ + picks is enough and I think putting Roddy in there is too much
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Old 12-07-2010, 12:27 AM   #131
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There are clearly some on this board who think league-wide demand for Iggy is going to be more widespread and aggressive than what I can envision right now. Don't get me wrong. He's a good player I've liked for some time now, and I think he'd be a very good fit at SF in the starting lineup if/when Booby gets up to speed, but his scoring this season has left a lot to be desired (thus far it's been a steep continuation of a downward trend that goes back several years) and he'll be owed 44 million over three years on the next, and likely more salary-restrictive, CBA. I just don't see teams tripping over one another in a mad dash to give Philly a significant haul of early first-round picks or highly prized youngsters to go along with cap flexibility and quality veterans.
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Old 12-07-2010, 11:08 AM   #132
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There are clearly some on this board who think league-wide demand for Iggy is going to be more widespread and aggressive than what I can envision right now. Don't get me wrong. He's a good player I've liked for some time now, and I think he'd be a very good fit at SF in the starting lineup if/when Booby gets up to speed, but his scoring this season has left a lot to be desired (thus far it's been a steep continuation of a downward trend that goes back several years) and he'll be owed 44 million over three years on the next, and likely more salary-restrictive, CBA. I just don't see teams tripping over one another in a mad dash to give Philly a significant haul of early first-round picks or highly prized youngsters to go along with cap flexibility and quality veterans.
I hope you're right. I hope the desire to get this guy is quite low and Dallas can swoop in and grab him on the cheap. I think that you might find yourself surprised though considering his talents and age.

The haul? I am certainly not sure about that and I already said as much in a similar thread as his stats this year (and to a lesser degree last year) could play a role in hurting Philly. But suitors? Again, I hope you're right, but I fear you're not.
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Old 12-08-2010, 12:32 PM   #133
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I don't see Iggy as a big enough upgrade over Caron to justify taking on the added years & dollars, plus perhaps giving up another asset just to get him. I don't want to do anything to mess with the chemistry of this team right now...though I suspect moving Haywood could actually be a good thing for team chemistry. Move him for an expiring, let Caron expire, re-sign Chandler, and we're good to go.
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Old 12-11-2010, 12:21 PM   #134
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I don't see Iggy as a big enough upgrade over Caron to justify taking on the added years & dollars, plus perhaps giving up another asset just to get him. I don't want to do anything to mess with the chemistry of this team right now...though I suspect moving Haywood could actually be a good thing for team chemistry. Move him for an expiring, let Caron expire, re-sign Chandler, and we're good to go.
so much fail in here.

So next season you want to play without Haywood and Butler, nice.

Im sure Mahinmi can step up full time if Chandler goes down.
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Old 12-11-2010, 02:38 PM   #135
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Im sure Mahinmi can step up full time if Chandler goes down.
he's done nothing so far to make us think he couldn't....
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Old 12-11-2010, 03:06 PM   #136
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...other than not even playing in eight games so far this season and only averaging 5 minutes in the games he's actually played.

As much as I'd like Mahinmi to be much more than expected, we can't make him TC's backup based on a lack of screw-ups in very limited minutes. We'd actually have to see him play heavy minutes for a couple of games to make a reasonable assessment as it relates to his ability to replace Haywood.
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Old 12-11-2010, 03:18 PM   #137
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Old 12-12-2010, 01:18 AM   #138
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IGGY'S numbers are considerably down this year (PPG, FG %, Three point percentage, free throw percentage) at this stage I think he is just a small upgrade over Butler not really worth it
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Old 12-15-2010, 05:32 AM   #139
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Dre's really struggling. Is it related to his injury or has he really fallen off?

I've only seen him play a little bit this year and he seemed like the same player. His shot was off but he was playing Boston.
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Old 12-15-2010, 06:52 AM   #140
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Dre's really struggling. Is it related to his injury or has he really fallen off?

I've only seen him play a little bit this year and he seemed like the same player. His shot was off but he was playing Boston.
I haven't watched him much this year but I get the impression that he's dogging it. I'm really picking up the Vince-Carter-in-his-last-couple-of-years-with-Toronto vibe from Iggy. I really don't know how much his injury is bothering him, but he seems like he's wanted to get out of Philly for a while now. I really think if he were traded to a contender he'd probably have the best showing of his career. I'm not really basing this on anything concrete, that's just the impression I get from him.

In any case, even with the way he's playing this year, I would trade Butler for Iggy a friggin heartbeat. I think he just fits this team's needs much better than Butler. Butler is essentially just a midrange shooter (albeit a damn good one) and that's not what the team needs from SF IMO. We DESPERATELY need a wingman who can get into the paint consistently, and Iggy provides that. Again I know that hasn't been the case this year, but given his age and his career history, I think that's an anomaly. Iggy's also a MUCH better defender, and as improved as we've been in that area this year, I think our defense would be that much more formidable if you swapped Butler for Iggy. Iggy's also one of the best passers in the league for his position. While Butler is by no means a bad passer, Iggy is considerably better and can even play point-forward now and then, which frankly I think is something the Mavs have needed for years (imagine if Josh Howard had great passing skills), especially now considering Kidd's lack of foot-speed and inability to get into the paint. Having Iggy help out in facilitating the offense would not only help the ball movement, but would also allow Kidd to spot up more often which is definitely a good thing. All in all, while he doesn't have Butler's shooting range, frankly I think he is exactly the type of player we need from that position.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Iggy's a better rebounder too

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Old 12-15-2010, 07:10 AM   #141
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IGGY'S numbers are considerably down this year (PPG, FG %, Three point percentage, free throw percentage) at this stage I think he is just a small upgrade over Butler not really worth it
It's certainly debatable how much of an upgrade he would be, but what do you mean by "not really worth it?" Not worth what exactly? If you mean his salary, I would say his contract is quite reasonable. (3 years for roughly 44 mil, and the last year is unguaranteed if I'm not mistaken.) Given his level of production and the fact that he's only about to turn 27, that's by no means a bad contract.

If you're worried we'd have to give up too much for him, as GMC pointed out earlier, it's pretty unlikely that teams are going to break the bank for him. If the deal is say, Iggy for Butler, Ajinca/Mahinmi, Dojo and a future pick, I would do that seven days a week and twice on Sunday. Maybe that's too optimistic, but again, I honestly don't see other teams willing to offer a much more. It wouldn't be much different than the way the Mavs got Butler for Howard. Butler is a very productive player with a large expiring contract, and those are a valuable commodity indeed in today's NBA.

We also need to consider what the Mavs' plans are beyond this season. Honestly, what do you think is the best course of action here? Due to his expiring contract, Butler is clearly the odd man out here. If we don't trade him before the deadline, then we either re-sign him or simply let his contract expire. Neither of those options appeal to me much at all. (Also, I'm not clear how the salary cap/Bird rights works. Is it even possible to re-sign both Butler and Chandler in the same season?) Whatever the case, the Mavs have a bit flexibility now which they probably won't have next season. Given the fact that our championship window is probably only 2 years or so, if they have a chance to move Butler for an upgrade, even if it's only a small upgrade, I say it would be just plain stupid not to take that chance (and frankly I think Iggy is more than a small upgrade over Butler.)

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Old 12-15-2010, 09:13 AM   #142
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It's certainly debatable how much of an upgrade he would be, but what do you mean by "not really worth it?" Not worth what exactly? If you mean his salary, I would say his contract is quite reasonable. (3 years for roughly 44 mil, and the last year is unguaranteed if I'm not mistaken.) Given his level of production and the fact that he's only about to turn 27, that's by no means a bad contract.
Yes, it absolutely is a bad contract. The final year is fully guaranteed. It's not horrendous, but it's a long contract for a lot of money for a low end second banana or high end third banana.

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If you're worried we'd have to give up too much for him, as GMC pointed out earlier, it's pretty unlikely that teams are going to break the bank for him. If the deal is say, Iggy for Butler, Ajinca/Mahinmi, Dojo and a future pick, I would do that seven days a week and twice on Sunday. Maybe that's too optimistic, but again, I honestly don't see other teams willing to offer a much more. It wouldn't be much different than the way the Mavs got Butler for Howard. Butler is a very productive player with a large expiring contract, and those are a valuable commodity indeed in today's NBA.
I think it's very unclear just how valuable expiring contracts are this season. With the threat of the lockout, owners may not be as concerned with shedding salary this season if they won't have to pay it next season. And it's unclear what will happen to the salary structure with the new CBA. It might make a team like Philly more desperate to get rid of a long contract like Iggy's, but it might also take the luster off expiring contracts. I'm not sure we have enough information right now.

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We also need to consider what the Mavs' plans are beyond this season. Honestly, what do you think is the best course of action here? Due to his expiring contract, Butler is clearly the odd man out here. If we don't trade him before the deadline, then we either re-sign him or simply let his contract expire. Neither of those options appeal to me much at all. (Also, I'm not clear how the salary cap/Bird rights works. Is it even possible to re-sign both Butler and Chandler in the same season?) Whatever the case, the Mavs have a bit flexibility now which they probably won't have next season. Given the fact that our championship window is probably only 2 years or so, if they have a chance to move Butler for an upgrade, even if it's only a small upgrade, I say it would be just plain stupid not to take that chance (and frankly I think Iggy is more than a small upgrade over Butler.)
Yes the Mavs can re-sign Butler and Chandler if they so choose (assuming Bird rights don't change with the new CBA, which seems like a long shot).
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Old 12-15-2010, 06:01 PM   #143
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Yes, it absolutely is a bad contract. The final year is fully guaranteed. It's not horrendous, but it's a long contract for a lot of money for a low end second banana or high end third banana.
Well i said it allready, we have to resign Butler to a marion type contract until he is like 35, so i definatly prefer to have 27year old Iggy with 44mio left than 31year old Butler with ~35....
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Old 12-15-2010, 06:35 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by jthig32 View Post
Yes, it absolutely is a bad contract. The final year is fully guaranteed. It's not horrendous, but it's a long contract for a lot of money for a low end second banana or high end third banana.
We're just gonna have to disagree on that one. 3 years is really not that long (relatively speaking), and you know as well as I do that the Mavs have had PLENTY of much worse contracts in the Marc Cuban era. Brendan Haywood. Now that's a bad contract. Iggy? Middle of the road. Is he overpaid? Sure. Is he really much more overpaid than say, Jason Terry? Or Butler himself for that matter? Or 90% of all NBA players?

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Yes the Mavs can re-sign Butler and Chandler if they so choose (assuming Bird rights don't change with the new CBA, which seems like a long shot).
Good to know. It's still a bad idea and I hope it doesn't happen.

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Old 12-15-2010, 07:43 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson View Post
We're just gonna have to disagree on that one. 3 years is really not that long (relatively speaking), and you know as well as I do that the Mavs have had PLENTY of much worse contracts in the Marc Cuban era. Brendan Haywood. Now that's a bad contract. Iggy? Middle of the road. Is he overpaid? Sure. Is he really much more overpaid than say, Jason Terry? Or Butler himself for that matter? Or 90% of all NBA players? .
You're comparing him against guys that are in the last year of their contract of the next to last. Not really comparative.

I'm not saying it's prohibitive. I'm just saying that it is indeed a bad contract. I'm confused why you don't think it's a bad contract, you think he's a good player, and yet you don't think he'll cost a ton. Seems like a weird conclusion.

The conclusion is that he's a pretty good player, with a bad but not horrible contract, and that's why he won't cost a premium (although I still think he might cost more than we're willing to offer).
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Old 12-15-2010, 08:22 PM   #146
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if you can flip Butler for Iggy you would presumably have a pretty nice young core of Roddy, Iggy,TC going forward with a still productive Dirk and some good back-up bigs.

Iggy looked pretty dominant at times a couple years ago in the playoffs, when it mattered. not sure if its that his skills have eroded some or that he's just sick of the losing culture. it's a pretty safe bet that a trade to a contender would invigorate him and lead to a renewed focus. also he was better playing with a real point guard when they had Andre Miller. Holiday was a rookie last year and Lou Williams is more a combo guard. also what was mentioned above about him being able to handle the ball and initiate the offense at times- that could be a huge help to this offense.
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Old 12-16-2010, 02:03 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by jthig32 View Post
You're comparing him against guys that are in the last year of their contract of the next to last. Not really comparative.
Sure it's comparative because I'm not talking about the future or the present, I'm talking about history here. I'm talking about the Mavericks' pattern of behavior; the pattern of taking on very expensive long-term contracts. Is Iggy's contract now worse than Jason Terry's was when he signed it? (Ok, Butler doesn't really apply in this situation because we haven't had him for very long, but Erick Dampier, then? Gana Diop? Jerry Stackhouse? Raef LaFrentz? Eddie Najera? Shawn Bradley? Antawn Jamison?) All I'm saying is that the Mavs of the past decade have taken on contracts much, much worse than Iggy's.

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I'm not saying it's prohibitive. I'm just saying that it is indeed a bad contract. I'm confused why you don't think it's a bad contract, you think he's a good player, and yet you don't think he'll cost a ton. Seems like a weird conclusion.
We're really just mincing words here. I'm not at all implying that it's a "good" contract. You're saying bad but not horrible. I'm saying not good but not bad. What's the difference and who cares? We're not really even disagreeing on much of anything.

And I also never said he wouldn't cost a ton, but guess what? This is the NBA. Good players generally do cost a ton. And teams over the salary cap with an aging veteran roster desperately clinging onto the increasingly fading hope of a championship with a 2-3 year window generally do have to overpay to upgrade their rosters even slightly. All I mean when I say it's not "bad" is that Iggy brings enough to the table that he would be well worth the money and the years. It doesn't strike me as the kind of contract we would eventually regret taking on. The way I think of it, a "bad" contract is the kind of contract that you wish you could get rid of. Iggy is productive enough and young enough that if he were to come here, he would pretty much be the guy for us at small forward for the remainder of his contract. It's not likely that before the three years were up, we would be eager to get rid of him but would be stuck with him because of his contract. He'll still be valuable when the contract expires.

Hell, you said yourself it's not "prohibitive." That's essentially all I'm saying too. In fact, isn't that what a "bad" contract is? A contract that prohibits a team from making other transactions that would be beneficial? A contract that in the long run does the franchise more harm than good? At least that's my definition. I'm just saying it's an acceptable drawback for a better shot at a championship. I never meant to imply he wouldn't cost a ton. I'm saying that he doesn't cost so much that it should deter the Mavs from pursuing him.

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(although I still think he might cost more than we're willing to offer).
Unfortunately, you are almost certainly correct about that.

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Old 12-16-2010, 08:57 AM   #148
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I think people see his numbers and think bad but it's actually acceptable if he plays to his regular career level - which is the hanging question. His career level is that of an 80 games 38mpg player who is well-rounded and plays both sides of the court.

Can he resume that sort of load and that level of play? If so, he's worthy of his deal. If not, it can be seen as a bit much. I would like to say it's attitude related vs a physical regress but on the couple of 6er broadcasts I've caught, the feeling (atleast from the broadcasters) was that their young crew look up and get along well w/him.
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Old 12-16-2010, 01:38 PM   #149
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He is averaging 14 ppg on already a bad scoring team he is there lead dog and gets plenty of iso's. His FG % and FT% numbers are significantly down from his career average, his passing is still there and he is a great rebounder, I just don't see him as a significant upgrade at all, then why mess with chemistry? From all signs I think the players love Butler and his loose attitude
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Old 12-16-2010, 03:49 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by mavs777 View Post
He is averaging 14 ppg on already a bad scoring team he is there lead dog and gets plenty of iso's. His FG % and FT% numbers are significantly down from his career average, his passing is still there and he is a great rebounder, I just don't see him as a significant upgrade at all, then why mess with chemistry? From all signs I think the players love Butler and his loose attitude
Uh, because I don't think the chemistry is that great? Honestly, this is probably more about Butler than Iggy. I'm just not a huge fan of his game, never have been, and his skillset really makes him the odd man out. We desperately need, and have needed for years, an athletic wingman whose first instinct is to attack the basket, and who can also play some point. This team is essentially nothing but a bunch of midrange shooters. Not one slasher in the whole bunch. Not one. Hell, why do you think we blow so many 20 point leads and always have? Because this team does and always has lived and died by the jumpshot. We can argue until we're blue in the face how much of an upgrade he is, but it comes down to this; Iggy fills our needs, Butler doesn't. Slashing, passing, rebounding, defense... Those are the things we need from that position. We need those things a lot more than we need Butlers midrange shooting.
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Old 12-16-2010, 04:50 PM   #151
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Because we walk through games, team gets bored.

Im not the biggest fan of Butler, he certainly isn't as good as he has played this month (50% shooting) and not as bad he started the regular season. But i really do think the chemistry is great on this team im not sure how you can say otherwise
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Old 12-16-2010, 04:52 PM   #152
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if you look at the shooting percentages, butler is statistically better than iggy. his fg%, 3pt%, and ft% are all higher than iggy's, while averaging more points than iggy. in iggys last game tuesday he had 8 points on 2-9 shooting. is this what we can expect from a guy that supposedly attacks the basket? caron is shooting a higher percentage from the field as a jumpshooter than iggy does as a slasher. to me, that's concerning.
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Old 12-16-2010, 07:40 PM   #153
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Iggy has 25 % of his attempts in close, that is certainly better than Butlers 16 but its not all that great for a guy that many think is an elite slashing wing.

For comparison's sake:
Carmello 37%
Vincanity 27%
Captain Jack 29%
Kirilenko 40%
Ariza 27%
Grant Hill 25%

some of these guys are even known as spot up shooters, his numbers this year are very alarming to me
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Old 12-20-2010, 12:51 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson View Post
Honestly, this is probably more about Butler than Iggy. I'm just not a huge fan of his game, never have been, and his skillset really makes him the odd man out. We desperately need, and have needed for years, an athletic wingman whose first instinct is to attack the basket, and who can also play some point. This team is essentially nothing but a bunch of midrange shooters. Not one slasher in the whole bunch. Not one. Hell, why do you think we blow so many 20 point leads and always have? Because this team does and always has lived and died by the jumpshot. We can argue until we're blue in the face how much of an upgrade he is, but it comes down to this; Iggy fills our needs, Butler doesn't. Slashing, passing, rebounding, defense... Those are the things we need from that position. We need those things a lot more than we need Butlers midrange shooting.
Yes.

Igoudala would be a weakside slashing nightmare for teams shifting their defense after we swing the ball from Dirk double teams....and the fact that Igoudala passes so well, means the players on the side the ball was sprung from can easily re-spot-up (like a midrange version of the re-post)....and our side to side to side(and possibly to side again) action will murder defenders with bad awareness.
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Old 12-20-2010, 12:53 PM   #155
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Iggy has 25 % of his attempts in close, that is certainly better than Butlers 16
And think how much it would go up on a squad where he is the weakside threat......in Phila he slashes against strong side defense, much of it out of iso's where every other defender sees his momentum and intention as the play develops, and in general, it's much easier for rotational help to get there on the strong side.......in Dallas he would slash against much weaker shifting weakside defense.
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:34 PM   #156
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Yes.

Igoudala would be a weakside slashing nightmare for teams shifting their defense after we swing the ball from Dirk double teams....and the fact that Igoudala passes so well, means the players on the side the ball was sprung from can easily re-spot-up (like a midrange version of the re-post)....and our side to side to side(and possibly to side again) action will murder defenders with bad awareness.
+1
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:37 PM   #157
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Iggy has 25 % of his attempts in close, that is certainly better than Butlers 16 but its not all that great for a guy that many think is an elite slashing wing.

For comparison's sake:
Carmello 37%
Vincanity 27%
Captain Jack 29%
Kirilenko 40%
Ariza 27%
Grant Hill 25%

some of these guys are even known as spot up shooters, his numbers this year are very alarming to me
that number would most certainly rise on this Mavs team, playing alongside Kidd and Dirk.
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