Wow, Tony Gwynn !!! - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

NotEnuffEyesToSee · 08-02-2001, 10:18 AM

I has never been strucked out more than 40 in any single season ...
But just ONE guy strucked him out 3 times in one game ...

Flying Tiger · 08-02-2001, 09:35 PM

He is (was) very amazing...that's why I hate to see him leave the game like this.

NotEnuffEyesToSee · 08-03-2001, 07:12 AM

The only hurler who struck out Gwynn 3 times in just one game is
Bob Welch ... anyway wasn't he singing the song "Ebony Eyes" ? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

"Well have you seen that girl in the corner
I'd like to take her out of her chains
Cause if I have my way with you baby
I would be changing your life today

Your eyes got me dreamin
Your eyes got me blind
Your eyes got me hopin
That I'll be holding you close tonight ...", don't you guys love this song ?

Murphy3 · 08-03-2001, 08:23 AM

i know this isn't going to be a popular opinion, but gwynn was a better player than cal ripken ever was....
cal ripken's main claim to fame was his consecutive game streak.. yes, this is truly amazing...obviously..
but tony gwynn is the best pure hitter in the last half of the 20th century. for me, that means more than a consecutive games streak.... often times, cal needed a day off but wouldn't take it because he wanted to keep the streak alive... there were times when he was playing horribly and really needed a day off, but the streak was more important than the team at times (i'm not saying he's a selfish guy, i'm just saying that tony gwynn is simply the better baseball player).

NotEnuffEyesToSee · 08-03-2001, 09:06 AM

Yes, simply as a hitter, Tony is far better than Cal ...
8 times batting champs ... but Tony and Cal is a different type of player.
you just can't compare Cal with Tony ... I think they both are just great ...

Murphy3 · 08-03-2001, 04:26 PM

you can compare...yes, they are different types of players..
if i were to start a team, and both of them were 24, i'd take tony gwynn in a heartbeat...
a guy that would legitimately get on base 42-43% of the time a season...
a guy that was a solid fielder..
a guy that could steal bases..could plug him in anywhere from 1-3 spot in the lineup.. yeah, i'd take a guy like that..

but, i wouldn't be upset if i ended up with cal either..
they were/are both great for the game

NotEnuffEyesToSee · 08-04-2001, 06:06 AM

but Tony has never been a homerun hitter ...
Cal hit over 400 homers, as far as I know, he's the most homerun-hitting
Shortstop ever ... I know ARod will pass him.
and I believe keeping healthy is also ONE GREAT *ABILITY*.

NotEnuffEyesToSee · 08-04-2001, 06:19 AM

As a lead off hitter, I would take Ichiro, I'm not his fan,
but 7 consecutive batting titles and 7 consecutive Golden Gloves ...
He has a strong arm to gun down a runner, he can steal the bases, he's really fast,
and I remember when he hit the 200th hit in Japan, and I'm sure he WILL
hit over 200 on the American soil this year.
It is TOO difficult to do that b/c American baseball style and Japanse
are quite DIFFERENT from each other,
and the strike zone is also diff, it's a total new ball game !!!
You can't be sure Gwynn will hit 200 in Japan, But Ichiro is also not a good homer hitter ...

Murphy3 · 08-05-2001, 10:32 AM

umm, yes, i know gwynn has never hit home runs...
unfortunately, alot of people do not realize that there's actually more to the game of baseball other than home runs.

gwynn would have 200 hits no matter where he played...

if gwynn were to play his entire career in japan, i'm sure he would have batted over .400 for a season at some point in his career...

baseball is simply better over here...
if players that cannot play in america go over to japan to revive their career, then it's rather obvious that baseball is better over here..

tom selleck even played baseball in japan

The Crippler · 08-05-2001, 06:40 PM

Ichiro is a great ballplayer, but I don't think he is an ideal leadoff hitter. His OBP is too low for what I look for in a leadoff guy. He doesn't take enough walks and doesn't work the count like I would like. I think he would be best served as a #2 hitter, but who am I to argue with Seattle's record this year. Ichiro is stellar on D though.

NotEnuffEyesToSee · 08-06-2001, 05:14 AM

"unfortunately, alot of people do not realize that
there's actually more to the game of baseball other than home runs."
That's a good point, but Dale Murphy would NOT have won
the back to back MVP's without HOMERUNS !!!

"gwynn would have 200 hits no matter where he played..."
Tony hit 200+ 5 times in his career ...
in 84, 213 hits 606 at bats in 158 games
in 86, 211 hits 642 at bats in 160 games
in 87, 218 hits 589 at bats in 157 games
in 89, 203 hits 604 at bats in 158 games
in 97, 220 hits 592 at bats in 149 games
Maybe he could have hit over 200 in Japan in 1997,
but you gotta know that Japanese play only 135 games a season,
and a pitcher has some advantage in Asian league ...
200 in 135 is really hard b/c you can get NOT ENOUGH "At Bats",
in fact it's more difficult to get "592 at bats" than to hit 220 in Japan,
I think I did exaggerate a little, but it's hard that amount of at-bats.

"baseball is simply better over here..."
Yeah I agree with you, Major league is well-systemed and has lots of great players.
but I feel you underrate the Japanese league.
I told you before, people diss something b/c they don't know anythin' about that.
I'm sure you don't know anything 'bout the Japanese league.
I'll tell you, how come "less-good Japanese" pitcher could have no-hitter in both league.
Nomo is the only 4 hurlers who had ever did that in entire Major league history.
and he's the 3rd quickest who had reached over 1000 K's mark in Major history.
and lots more for him ...
Take a look at Shinjo(Mets), his batting average is even WAY BETTER in the bigs.
Major league is simply better b/c there're lots of Hispanic playing there.
but if US economy is down and Japanese booms, they will play in the Japanese.
then Major League will become less-good ...

"tom selleck even played baseball in japan"(I guess you forgot the wink symbol [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img])
I think you've watched more movies than ball games. I saw that movie "Mr. Baseball", too.

NotEnuffEyesToSee · 08-06-2001, 06:02 AM

The Crippler, "His OBP is too low"
"He doesn't take enough walks and doesn't work the count like I would like."
You're right about that, but that's because of his aggressive batting style.
He's not struck out often, he'd rather like to hit ...
I don't think taking less walks is a problem.
you see, it takes 3.72 seconds between Ichiro hits a ball
and he reaches the first base. ONLY 3.72 secs !!!
Didn't you see he got away with a hit from Randy Johnson in the All-Star game ?
He's a speed demon ... He can get away from double play !!!
so he puts such a pressure on the opponent's infield defenders,
they gotta throw the ball as fast as possible, otherwise he will be safe ...
and I saw that made them commit several errors, especially SS or 3rd baseman.
but just getting walk doesn't cause any pressure on them itself.
and his bat speed is really fast,
I heard that his bat speed is about 8 miles faster than Nomar's.

"I don't think he is an ideal leadoff hitter."
I agree, my ideal leadoff hitter is over .900 avg [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img] with over .900 obp [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img].
C'mon, let's come down to earth, man,
Who's BETTER than Ichiro as a leadoff hitter right now ?
Take a look at other teams, their leadoff hitters are just awful ...
I think Ichiro is an ideal leadoff hitter RIGHT NOW !!!

Remember he is just a ROOKIE, what you expect ?,
and has NEVER played in the US BEFORE ...
Did Tony play better than him in his rookie season ?
Is it EASY for a rookie to hit over 200 hits in a single season ?????

NotEnuffEyesToSee · 08-06-2001, 06:16 AM

He had changed his swing form 3 times,
but still he hit over .300 always with 3 different batting style ...

"I think he would be best served as a #2 hitter," I don't thinks so.
"ichiro" can also mean "No. 1" in Japanese,
altho its Characters(they use both Chinese and Japanese Characters) are different,
the sound is the same - homonym.
so he was born to be #1 hitter [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] ...

Murphy3 · 08-06-2001, 10:05 AM

don't ever say that i don't know something about baseball.
if you came up with any type of point, maybe it would be ok to hint at something like that, but i would quickly be there to prove to you how wrong you are.

i never said that japanese baseball was vastly inferior to baseball in the U.S....i said that it's not as good. and i'm sure you know that isn't as good as major league baseball...
another thing, it is impossible to compare batting averages from the japanese leagues to the MLB....they don't compute..different fields, different strike zones... to make a statement like that is ludicrous.
try again though

TheKid · 08-06-2001, 11:46 AM

Tony being better than Cal, that's a tough one but I would have to agree. The only reason it becomes tough is Cal played shortstop which is the toughest position on the infield to defend and him being 6'4" really shows how versatile he was. NOW as a hitter, Cal was AVERAGE at best. There are a lot of people who may not agree with me, but it's the truth. Think about the fact that this guy NEVER missed a game for about 12 years playing 182 games a year and he just surpassed 3,000 hits about 3 years ago. If he played an average of 165 games (which is what the average player plays a year) he would STILL be trying to reach the 3,000 hit mark.

Gwynn on the other hand was also a decent defender. He has some gold gloves to his credit so it's not like he sucked on defense. As far as his batting goes, I could care less that he doesn't hit a lot of HR's. Give me a guy who will ALWAYS give you a hit in the clutch (doesn't need to be a HR) and I'll take him anyday. The guy was AMAZING with Runners in scoring position, he had an amazing OBP, and he could hit ANY pitcher. Doesn't matter. I guarantee you GREAT pitchers would tell you if they were in the 9th inning and they had a choice to pitch to a player like Gwynn or McGwire, they would take McGwire. Either a player like McGwire is going to hit a HR or strike out. Gwynn, YOU KNOW he's going to make contact and there's no telling what could happen. When you have a player that's as hard an out as Gwynn is, he's remarkable. That's what Gwynn has that Cal didn't.

So I'll give the edge to Gwynn too. Not by much, but definately better.

Murphy3 · 08-06-2001, 03:15 PM

without the streak, ....cal would still be a hall of famer..but you wouldn't look at cal ripken as highly as a guy like rafael palmeiro...(who also could sneak into the hall of fame)

TheKid · 08-06-2001, 04:18 PM

without the streak definately he would be hall of famer. He revolutionized a position, he deserves to be a hall of famer.

Murphy3 · 08-06-2001, 04:31 PM

of course...i agree (as previously noted).. but the streak is what made him who he is...
to tell you the truth, i hate streaks like that.
they're actually kind of stupid. in baseball, it doesn't pay to be an ironman...you need days off in baseball....there's been several times in the past where cal needed a day off, but to keep the streak alive, he played. is that necessarily best for the team?..no, of course not...was it best for him and his popularity, yes, of course

TheKid · 08-06-2001, 04:53 PM

I agree, actually if he had of taken some days off, he probably would still be playing shortstop instead of making the switch to third base to protect that bad back of his. However it was still impressive because while we laugh at baseball players needing a break, he played through all the little nagging injuries that MANY players will sit out two or three games just to rest. So that part of it you have to respect.

Big Boy Laroux · 08-06-2001, 07:26 PM

didn't someone miss games because of injuries inflicted while playing nintendo?

and i still love corey maggette's infected toe after a bad pedicure injury...

NotEnuffEyesToSee · 08-07-2001, 08:55 AM

"don't ever say that i don't know something about baseball."
I NEVER said you didn't know somethin' about baseball,
I said, "I'm sure you don't know anything 'bout the Japanese league."

"i never said that japanese baseball was vastly inferior to baseball in the U.S."
then what is this ?
"if players that cannot play in america go over to japan
to revive their career,
tom selleck even played baseball in japan."
Weren't you implying that Major is MUCH better than Japanese ?
Only SCRUBS will play in Japan, huh ?
Even Tom Selleck played in Japan !!!!!?????
Congratulations !!! you're right again,
the Japanese is one of the worst league, that's why Tom could play there ...
Major League is Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay BETTER,
your stuff is ALWAYS better, other stuff is worthless to try. Thanks a lot ...

"it is impossible to compare batting averages from the japanese leagues to the MLB
....they don't compute..
different fields, different strike zones... to make a statement like that is ludicrous."
What IS ridiculous ? I don't get it ...
How many batters hit over 200 dingers in both leagues(NL & AL) ?
How many pitchers struck out more than 1000 times in both ?
Only few players did that b/c lots of things are different from each other ?
How many times Tony play against AL pitchers ?

"but i would quickly be there to prove to you how wrong you are."
Prove what ?????

NotEnuffEyesToSee · 08-07-2001, 09:15 AM

Why do the Colorado Rockies Players play better and hit more homers
in the Coors Field ?

Big Boy Laroux · 08-07-2001, 09:20 AM

the air is thinner and the ball travels farther. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

reeds · 08-07-2001, 05:50 PM

Man- it hurts to do this- but I agree with Murphy! Gwynn over Ripken.

Ripken a haller, yes...

but Gwynn was one of the best hitters EVER. and there is more to the game than home-runs..getting hits, getting on base, moving runners over, etc...

NotEnuffEyesToSee · 08-07-2001, 08:47 PM

Big Boy Laroux, don't I know that !
I think you said that as a joke, right ?
I mentioned Coors Field b/c Murhy3 said
"different fields, different strike zones...
to make a statement like that is ludicrous."
I tell you, different fields, pitchers, strike zones, teams, you name it,
DO MATTER big time. they can affect your stats and career ...

NotEnuffEyesToSee · 08-07-2001, 09:00 PM

Let me tell you one thing,
Cal is on his 15 game hitting streak RIGHT NOW,
but Tony is done for good ...
and there's one more thing Tony has gone, Ichiro is COMING !!!
That is the last thing I want to say to you all ...

Flying Tiger · 08-07-2001, 09:03 PM

Man...I've gained a great deal of respect for Murphy reading this thread. I agree with, pretty much, every thing he's said.

NotEnuffEyesToSee · 08-08-2001, 07:52 AM

It seems you guys all agree with
"There's more to the game other than home runs."
Getting hit-by-pitch, squeeze bunt, sacrifice hit, OBP, team batting, steal ...
yeah they're all important ... sometimes you need one of those than homerun.

But I don't understand, Murphy3 likes Dale Murphy, reeds likes Jr,
TheKid likes Conseco and Flying Tiger likes Sammy,
but these players without HOMERUNS, they're just average players,
don't tell me they're still one of the greatest without any HOMER.
but you guys still want them to be the homerun king or somethin'.
I think you'd better wish them could win the batting title instead.
Don't you want them to be a better player like TONY GWYNN.

If you say Tony is better than Dale, Jr, Conseco or Sammy
then I'll probably agree with you.
but Tony's better than Cal, I can't agree with you on that one ...
However you can't still compare these guys with Tony,
they're different types of players.
You can compare him with Ichiro 'cause they have lots of similarities ...

NotEnuffEyesToSee · 08-08-2001, 08:01 AM

If I were the owner of a ball club, I would jump on the chance to have
Cal on my team, b/c he has MORE fans than Tony.
Major League is Pro sports, it's not an amateur game.
and I wanna make MORE money, YEAH BIG BUCKS !!!

NotEnuffEyesToSee · 08-08-2001, 08:15 AM

After the strike, baseball popularity was down ...
Who gave LIFE to the Major League AGAIN ?
Was it Tony ? NO !!! Big Mac and Sammy !!!
How ? was they good at OBP or Defense .... ?
NO !!! HOMERUN AFTER HOMERUN !!!
Fans love HOMERUNS !!! Fans remember touchdowns, not your tackles or sacks ...
They remember your homeruns not your OBP !!!
Major League is a Pro game, they gotta please their fans ...
Without McGuire and Sammy's homeruns, baseball game would have sucked for SOME time.

Big Boy Laroux · 08-08-2001, 08:58 AM

ok, man, think about it. why does cal have more fans? because he's a media darling. the streak was a great accomplishment, true, but it was over every freaking station. is the fact that gwynn won the batting title for like a gazillion straight seasons all over the tv? no. media coverage = fans.

NotEnuffEyesToSee · 08-08-2001, 09:34 AM

IMO media covers what fans might be interested in or usually like ...
they do KNOW well about TV rating than you do ...
and ASK media why 'you media' had NOT covered enough about TONY GWYNN ?

NotEnuffEyesToSee · 08-08-2001, 09:35 AM

I'm just saying here that HOMERUN is really IMPORTANT in the MAJOR LEAGUE !!!

NotEnuffEyesToSee · 08-08-2001, 09:38 AM

Remember I posted this message to honor Tony not to diss him !!!
Tony is the greatest, and Cal is the greatest, too.
You CAN'T compare Tony with Cal ... CAN'T say Tony is better than Cal ...

Big Boy Laroux · 08-08-2001, 10:13 AM

why can't we compare tony to cal? maybe not on defense as they play different positions, but in their all-around game and at the plate, we certainly can.

TheKid · 08-08-2001, 10:37 AM

NOT ENUFF, I don't like Conseco, I was asking before if anyone thought he was going to the hall of fame because I heard some people talking about it when I was at the baseball game. I just thought it was an interesting topic so I thought I would throw it out there. I mean I don't mind the guy, but I'm by no means a Conseco fan.

Murphy3 · 08-08-2001, 10:41 AM

actually, dale murphy would have been a good player without home runs...
he was still an RBI machine, an amazing fielder, hit over .300 a few times (when there weren't as many players hitting over .300), stole more than 30 bases in a season and was the team leader. he was able to play several positions from catcher to 1B to any outfield position.

and yes, you can compare gwynn and ripken...we've been doing it. the consensus here seems to be that gwynn would be the player that most people would want if they were both young players again.

if you take the streak away from cal, i'm sure gwynn would receive a higher amount of votes to get in the hall of fame than ripken.
and how much is the streak actually a part of playing the game?

Big Boy Laroux · 08-08-2001, 11:08 AM

actually, the streak is a huge part of the game. to play through nagging injuries that many people would spend a few days on the DL for is respectful. and he played at a high level, too.

that is defending cal, but i still think gwynn is better.

Murphy3 · 08-08-2001, 02:16 PM

it is a part of the game to play through nagging injuries..yes, of course.. but it isn't necessarily always a plus. there were times where he played through injuries when he actually should have been sitting out..
nothing negative against cal. he's a class guy and a great ball-player. he helped keep baseball together....barely.
baseball fans should be very thankful for all cal gave us....
but, i'd still take tony gwynn in a heartbeat

NotEnuffEyesToSee · 08-08-2001, 06:11 PM

I know what you guys mean ...
but what I'm saying is that "playing with some injuries" is as great as high OBP, moving
runners over ... and I also wanna say we remember Cal better b/c he hit HOMER in the
All-Star game, if he hit just single maybe that would have been different stories ...
but I'm not saying and NEVER SAID "Cal is better than Tony" ...
I just don't think Tony is better than Cal, that's all ...