Plan B if D Wade and Lebron go elsewhere - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

mavs777 · 05-09-2010, 01:02 AM

Who would you prefer of these 8?

Mavericks Rockets Fan · 05-09-2010, 01:21 AM

JJ, Ellis, and Iggy would provide needed help by being effective scorers at the 2 spot. While Jefferson and Kaman give us a needed boost with their low post scoring.

The reason I didn't pick Amare, Bosh, or Boozer is because we already have Dirk. However, if Dirk leaves then these three have to become our #1 targets...

mavs777 · 05-09-2010, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavericks Rockets Fan

JJ, Ellis, and Iggy would provide needed help by being effective scorers at the 2 spot. While Jefferson and Kaman give us a needed boost with their low post scoring.

The reason I didn't pick Amare, Bosh, or Boozer is because we already have Dirk. However, if Dirk leaves then these three have to become our #1 targets...

Amare has shown he can play the 5, you might give up a bit on the glass but this team seems to struggle in the playoffs in the halfcourt, I don't want Bosh or Boozer. I would rate it imo like this

1. Amare
2. Josh
3. Kaman
4. Iggy
5. Ellis

Ellis and Jefferson imo are overrated and I would like them only if a bigger piece would come as well

Mavericks Rockets Fan · 05-09-2010, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

Amare has shown he can play the 5, you might give up a bit on the glass but this team seems to struggle in the playoffs in the halfcourt, I don't want Bosh or Boozer. I would rate it imo like this

1. Amare
2. Josh
3. Kaman
4. Iggy
5. Ellis

Ellis and Jefferson imo are overrated and I would like them only if a bigger piece would come as well

Amare as a 5? It could work, but it means sacrificing some defence and rebounding at a position where the primary job is defence and rebounding. Personally, I think Haywood & Damp do a good job of those. Here is who I'd want most:

1. Iggy
2. Ellis
3. Johnson
4. Jefferson
5. Amare
6. Kaman

And yes I agree, I don't want Bosh or Boozer here either. They just wouldn't be a good fit. [of course what I said earlier still applies - if dirk decides to opt out these guys become our #1 target then]...

sefant77 · 05-09-2010, 04:22 AM

I wont put Ellis so high because we have with Roddy a similar player with potential to become a good Ellis type of player.

KINGBEEF · 05-09-2010, 04:51 AM

hmmm, it would be a toss up between Iggy and Jefferson. If I could add Amare to it I would but, we all know he won't play for Dallas. Jefferson is just too good down low. You would have to double team him every game, because one on one's are not an option against him.

Mavericks Rockets Fan · 05-09-2010, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

I wont put Ellis so high because we have with Roddy a similar player with potential to become a good Ellis type of player.

Its not like I am crazy about Ellis, I just like him better than Joe Johnson. I'd rather have Ellis - a guy who is good at driving into and scoring in the paint - than Joe Johnson...

jthig32 · 05-09-2010, 07:25 AM

People picking Iggy over Johnson are certifiably insane.

Usually Lurkin · 05-09-2010, 09:24 AM

With Dirk and a scoring center (preferably a real center), even Kidd and Butler will be open enough to score. Hopefully Roddy will be playing.

Give me Kaman or Jefferson, then Amare or Boozer. Can we add Marc Gasol to the wish list?

Man, I want some consistent scoring beside Dirk in the post.

grndmstr_c · 05-09-2010, 11:07 AM

Without considering cost, Bosh. No he's not the ideal positional fit, but to my mind he is, without question, the single best player on the free agent market after Lebron/Wade, and he'll be a force in the league for the duration of whatever contract he signs. If he's interested in Dallas (I can see why the Mavs wouldn't be his preferred destination) and Lebron/Wade aren't available, Dallas should be interested in him.

On Iggy/Johnon, I agree with thig that Joe's the better player. However, I think they're close enough that you at least have to ask the question: Is Iggy the better fit playing in a starting lineup that has Caron and Dirk at the forward spots? Taking his defense and penchant for attacking the basket into account, I think the answer may be yes.

On the other hand, you can ask a slightly different question: Is a Dallas team that starts Johnson and Marion together and brings Caron off the bench more formidable than one that starts Iggy and Caron and brings Marion off the bench? There again, I think the answer is yes.

So give me, ignoring cost, Bosh >> JJ > Iggy, in that order, if nothing gets worked out with Lebron or Wade.

jthig32 · 05-09-2010, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Without considering cost, Bosh. No he's not the ideal positional fit, but to my mind he is, without question, the single best player on the free agent market after Lebron/Wade, and he'll be a force in the league for the duration of whatever contract he signs. If he's interested in Dallas (I can see why the Mavs wouldn't be his preferred destination) and Lebron/Wade aren't available, Dallas should be interested in him.

On Iggy/Johnon, I agree with thig that Joe's the better player. However, I think they're close enough that you at least have to ask the question: Is Iggy the better fit playing in a starting lineup that has Caron and Dirk at the forward spots? Taking his defense and penchant for attacking the basket into account, I think the answer may be yes.

On the other hand, you can ask a slightly different question: Is a Dallas team that starts Johnson and Marion together and brings Caron off the bench more formidable than one that starts Iggy and Caron and brings Marion off the bench? There again, I think the answer is yes.

So give me, ignoring cost, Bosh >> JJ > Iggy, in that order, if nothing gets worked out with Lebron or Wade.

I keep going back and forth on Bosh. I think Johnson gives you a better shot at a championship over the next three years or so.

However, as you point out, Bosh is the superior player, so while the fit might not be perfect, he'd give you a much larger window at a title because he's capable of being the best player on a properly built title contender, and Joe Johnson is not.

But, I think the Mavs are significantly better with Joe Johnson next year than they are with Bosh. So I'm torn.

Whatever, give me either and I'll be ecstatic.

SeriousSummer · 05-09-2010, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

People picking Iggy over Johnson are certifiably insane.

Joe Johnson:

Points--21.5
Assists--4.9
Rebounds--4.6
Shooting %--45.8
Free Throw %--81.8 (220/269)
3 point %-36.9

Andre Iguodala

Points--17.1
Assists--5.8
Rebounds--6.5
Shooting %--44.3
Free Throw %--73.3 (315/430)
3 point %-31

Johnson is a far more efficient scorer. He finished 11th in the league in scoring, while Iguodala finished 38th. That difference is enormous--on average only one third of the teams in the league had a better scorer than JJ, while every team on average had a better scorer than Iggy.

The six scorers who finished immediately in front of Iggy were All Harrington, Lual Deng, Stephen Curry, O.J. Mayo, Andrea Bargnani and Al Jefferson (behind him are Carl Landry, Rodney Stuckey, Jet, V. Carter, Manu and Nash). You don't bother to double team scorers at the level of these players--they won't beat you by themselves.

The six scorers ahead of Joe Johnson? Dwayne Wade, Monta Ellis, Dirk, Danny Granger, Bosch and Amare (immediately behind him are D. Rose, Z-Bo, S. Jackson, David Lee, Tyreke Evans and Cory Maggette). Those are players that can kill you on their own.

Joe Johnson is in an entirely league from Iguodala as a scorer. Dirk-JJ as opposed to Dirk--Iggy is the difference between Kobe-Gasol and Kobe-Odom.

clutch#41 · 05-09-2010, 03:00 PM

how about trade dirk and rebuild! look at OKC..their gonna win a championship b4 the mavs do!

ghazi · 05-09-2010, 03:11 PM

Can this guy get banned already?

Underdog · 05-09-2010, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clutch#41

how about trade dirk and rebuild! look at OKC..their gonna win a championship b4 the mavs do!

clutch#41 · 05-09-2010, 03:12 PM

^ LMAO!!

clutch#41 · 05-09-2010, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghazi

Can this guy get banned already?

ban me for expressing my opinion???? lmao..jus bc dirk will never get us anywhere and i want him traded?? lol truth hurts!

Underdog · 05-09-2010, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clutch#41

dirk will never get us anywhere

So your screen name is meant to be ironic?

clutch#41 · 05-09-2010, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

So your screen name is meant to be ironic?

that was back in 07 during his prime after his mvp year and after our finals appearance..i think it speaks for itself...now...after not going anywhere id trade him in a heartbeat...yea i love dirk.hes been good for us..hes the best player in franchise history..but its a business..its time to move on!

grndmstr_c · 05-09-2010, 05:42 PM

Johnson is a better jump shooter than Iggy.

Johnson is a more productive scorer than Iggy.

Johnson is NOT a more efficient scorer than Iggy. Their true shooting percentages were close to identical this year, and in previous seasons Iggy's actually had the edge.

jthig32 · 05-09-2010, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Johnson is a better jump shooter than Iggy.

Johnson is a more productive scorer than Iggy.

Johnson is NOT a more efficient scorer than Iggy. Their true shooting percentages were close to identical this year, and in previous seasons Iggy's actually had the edge.

True. That was an incorrect statement above by someone.

However, it would seem fair to assume that Iggy's efficiency would drop if he were to attempt to score at Johnson's rate, and conversely, Johnson's efficiency should go up if he's not forced to score at the rate he is.

grndmstr_c · 05-09-2010, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

True. That was an incorrect statement above by someone.

However, it would seem fair to assume that Iggy's efficiency would drop if he were to attempt to score at Johnson's rate, and conversely, Johnson's efficiency should go up if he's not forced to score at the rate he is.

As a general principle I agree, though Iggy did score at a rate of 20.1 per 40 minutes in 2008 without his efficiency suffering.

mavs777 · 05-09-2010, 06:49 PM

I think Woodson has really held back Johnson, he will explode with a good coach jmo

mac222b · 05-09-2010, 09:47 PM

Bosh and then Joe Johnson. i just think Bosh is one of the 10 best players in the league. we would have 2 superstars. Joe Johnson is really really good and fits our needs better. but only if it's for Dust and a future 1st,etc. i don't think i'd include Butler for him. doesn't a 13 million instant expiring and a really good player in Butler(playing for a new contract) net you more than Joe Johnson? he's gonna be 30 and wants max $

mavs777 · 05-10-2010, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

Bosh and then Joe Johnson. i just think Bosh is one of the 10 best players in the league. we would have 2 superstars. Joe Johnson is really really good and fits our needs better. but only if it's for Dust and a future 1st,etc. i don't think i'd include Butler for him. doesn't a 13 million instant expiring and a really good player in Butler(playing for a new contract) net you more than Joe Johnson? he's gonna be 30 and wants max $

Butler and Marion= fail

mqywaaah · 05-10-2010, 03:11 AM

what are the chances that Dirk leaves?

CrazyBoy · 05-10-2010, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghazi

Can this guy get banned already?

i put him on the ignorelist - works fine

btt: why does nobody consider getting monta ellis? hes certainly affordable, maybe even with a center in a bundle

Underdog · 05-10-2010, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyBoy

why does nobody consider getting monta ellis? hes certainly affordable, maybe even with a center in a bundle

I'd love to have Ellis if we could snag Biedrins as well.

In my book, any deal that can net us both a 2 and 5 should be Plan B if Sammy Superstar doesn't pan out...

(I also like Iggy/Dalembert or Brand for the same reason.)

dalmations202 · 05-10-2010, 11:26 AM

Okur and Boozer co-exist fine, but Dirk and Boozer can't because they play the same position? Change the name of the position. Dirk is a better C than Okur defensively and offensively.

I can also see how Dirk and Bosh could co-exist wonderfully, especially if Haywood can be resigned, and possibly even Damp.

I mean using LA as an example, you would be moving Bosh to the Pau role, Haywood to the Bynum role, and Dirk to the Odom role.

Kidd, and Butler starting with them. Roddy, Terry, Marion (round out the 8) -- then Damp, Najera, Stevenson as (enforcers).

Dallas could do LOTS with this lineup. Dallas could take its chances with any team, including LA at that point.

Want to run and go small, Dallas moves in Marion with Dirk and Bosh.

I wouldn't count out Bosh at all as a non-fit -- if all are willing to keep their ego's in check.

Zki41 · 05-10-2010, 12:43 PM

I feel with a Dirk/Bosh front court, we will struggle against front courts that have really big, traditional centers in terms of defense. Bosh has the same kind of defensive issues that Dirk has, as well as all the controversy that arises from those issues. Toronto had a huge problem with defense this year ... but maybe with the right coach Bosh can key into defense. Either way ... Dirk and Bosh are more or less the same type of player, in the sense that they are both jump shooting power forwards, though Dirk has more of an outside game and Bosh has more of an inside game. If we get an upgrade at the five spot, I really just want a traditional 'Shaq' type center. If Bosh can do this for us, then I am down with that.

As for JJ or Iggy ... I think it is important to point out that both of those players have been carrying their team on their back, when in fact, they should be second options on contending teams, or at least duos. Both Iggy and Johnson will benefit from Dirk drawing all of the attention. I also hope Johnson's lackluster performance in the playoffs lowers his price. Atlanta is already a cheap team, so it should not be too difficult to pry Johnson away if he wants a sign and trade. Based on Johnson's regular season though, as well as the fact that he brings a lot of intangibles for a SG (rebounding, passing) and can shoot and has down well in isolation plays, as well as the fact that he carried his team on his back, I think he will be a great fit. Hopefully we don't have to give up too much for him.

sefant77 · 05-10-2010, 01:09 PM

I just want Bosh when we can resign Haywood too.

THEN you have a killer frontcourt when you start to sub early in the quarters and you have an answer for the few teams with real center.

Dirk 36 /Bosh 12
Bosh 24/Haywood 24

And i take Iggy over JJ. Younger, better defense (important because of Kidd), better slasher. Iggy and Butler as 2a and 2b are fine.

Mav Addict · 05-13-2010, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

Okur and Boozer co-exist fine, but Dirk and Boozer can't because they play the same position? Change the name of the position. Dirk is a better C than Okur defensively and offensively.

I can also see how Dirk and Bosh could co-exist wonderfully, especially if Haywood can be resigned, and possibly even Damp.

I mean using LA as an example, you would be moving Bosh to the Pau role, Haywood to the Bynum role, and Dirk to the Odom role.

Kidd, and Butler starting with them. Roddy, Terry, Marion (round out the 8) -- then Damp, Najera, Stevenson as (enforcers).

Dallas could do LOTS with this lineup. Dallas could take its chances with any team, including LA at that point.

Want to run and go small, Dallas moves in Marion with Dirk and Bosh.

I wouldn't count out Bosh at all as a non-fit -- if all are willing to keep their ego's in check.

+1....This

Haywood/Damp
Bosh/Marion/Najera
Dirk/Marion/Butler
Butler/Terry/Roddy/Stevenson
Kidd/Roddy/Barea

Mavericks Rockets Fan · 05-13-2010, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mav Addict

+1....This

Haywood/Damp
Bosh/Marion/Najera
Dirk/Marion/Butler
Butler/Terry/Roddy/Stevenson
Kidd/Roddy/Barea

I'm against Bosh for the simple reason that I believe that if you want to win a championship, you need a great front court scorer and a great back court scorer. Getting Iggy or JJ should be our Plan B. Getting Bosh or Boozer should be more like our Plan C...

Mavericks Rockets Fan · 05-13-2010, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mav Addict

+1....This

Haywood/Damp
Bosh/Marion/Najera
Dirk/Marion/Butler
Butler/Terry/Roddy/Stevenson
Kidd/Roddy/Barea

Both Damp & Butler would have to be traded away to get Bosh. Its conceivable that Damp gets waived and he comes back to Dallas, but Butler is definitely staying with Toronto...

Mav Addict · 05-13-2010, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavericks Rockets Fan

Both Damp & Butler would have to be traded away to get Bosh. Its conceivable that Damp gets waived and he comes back to Dallas, but Butler is definitely staying with Toronto...

My bad, you are right

Haywood/Damp
Bosh/Marion/Najera
Dirk/Marion
Roddy/Terry/Stevenson
Kidd/Barea/Roddy

Rick41 · 05-13-2010, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mav Addict

+1....This

Haywood/Damp
Bosh/Marion/Najera
Dirk/Marion/Butler
Butler/Terry/Roddy/Stevenson
Kidd/Roddy/Barea

Dirk at the 3? That's one TALL lineup.

You forgot MC too.

Mavericks Rockets Fan · 05-13-2010, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mav Addict

My bad, you are right

Haywood/Damp
Bosh/Marion/Najera
Dirk/Marion
Roddy/Terry/Stevenson
Kidd/Barea/Roddy

I was thinking something more along the lines of:

Haywood/Bosh
Dirk/Bosh/Najera
Marion/Stevenson (I'd probably get some MLE player to back up Marion)
Roddy/Terry/Stevenson
Kidd/Barea/Roddy

Because playing Dirk at the 3 would be a huge defensive liability. Although Dirk does move pretty well for a big man, he would get exposed there...

Mav Addict · 05-13-2010, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavericks Rockets Fan

I was thinking something more along the lines of:

Haywood/Bosh
Dirk/Bosh/Najera
Marion/Stevenson (I'd probably get some MLE player to back up Marion)
Roddy/Terry/Stevenson
Kidd/Barea/Roddy

Because playing Dirk at the 3 would be a huge defensive liability. Although Dirk does move pretty well for a big man, he would get exposed there...

I dont think Bosh would sign and trade for a contract worth $100M+ for 6 years to come off the bench...

Mavericks Rockets Fan · 05-13-2010, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mav Addict

I dont think Bosh would sign and trade for a contract worth $100M+ for 6 years to come off the bench...

If getting Bosh forces us to play Dirk at the 3 - then its a bad trade. We already have an elite PF in Dirk - we don't need to get another one. What we need is a premier scorer in the back-court. Iggy or JJ will do just fine.

Mav Addict · 05-13-2010, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavericks Rockets Fan

If getting Bosh forces us to play Dirk at the 3 - then its a bad trade. We already have an elite PF in Dirk - we don't need to get another one. What we need is a premier scorer in the back-court. Iggy or JJ will do just fine.

I agree a perimeter player would be ideal...Im just not sure if JJ or Iggy is aggressive enough to play in a jump shooting Mav lineup...the mavs need 20-25 points consistently from someone not named Dirk, Caron, or JT even if its a frontcourt player of Bosh's ilk.

Like Dirk said....Lebron or Wade would be perfect, and if not one of the top tier players, then 2 second tier players is another idea as UD stated.