Plan B if D Wade and Lebron go elsewhere

[bobbyfg7]

Originally Posted by Mavericks Rockets Fan

I was thinking something more along the lines of:

Haywood/Bosh
Dirk/Bosh/Najera
Marion/Stevenson (I'd probably get some MLE player to back up Marion)
Roddy/Terry/Stevenson
Kidd/Barea/Roddy

Because playing Dirk at the 3 would be a huge defensive liability. Although Dirk does move pretty well for a big man, he would get exposed there...

Howard could come back if Washington gives up their team option on him.

[Mav Addict]

Originally Posted by bobbyfg7

Howard could come back if Washington gives up their team option on him.

I just vomited a lil bit in my mouth

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by Mavericks Rockets Fan

If getting Bosh forces us to play Dirk at the 3 - then its a bad trade. We already have an elite PF in Dirk - we don't need to get another one. What we need is a premier scorer in the back-court. Iggy or JJ will do just fine.

As with most -- you miss the point with Dirk at the 3.

Dirk cannot play the 3 against all teams. He already plays the 3 lots of the time on the offensive end though, and sometimes plays it on the defensive end as well.

Dirks offensive game is that of a SF, he can drive and he can shoot outside. He has some PF post up moves, but it isn't really his strength.

He can play the SF against some players though, and I think Odom is one of them. There are several other lineups that he would just abuse the SF. In fact some teams have resorted to playing their SF against Dirk because he abuses the Pf's so badly.

As long as they have Marion, who cares though, because if you need to move Bosh to the C and Dirk to the PF for a while and Marion at the SF OK. Have a lineup that Dirk can play the SF, then Dirk/Bosh/Haywood. If Marion has to stay at the SF, then Dirk/Bosh/Haywood rotate between the PF/C depending on how tough the other teams Bigs are.

Dirk at the C is only bad when he ends up the last line of defense - offensively he is fine, and very few Centers can abuse him even in the post.

I am just saying that Dirk and Bosh could co-exist since they both work their offense differently, and both would be very hard to guard. They would both need a good defensive Center for part of the game with them against some teams though.

[mavs777]

If bosh comes he is starting for sure... Probably at the 5 you don't put an elite player on the bench so if bosh comes it will be like this Kidd---roddy/jet---marion---dirk----bosh

[Mavericks Rockets Fan]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

As with most -- you miss the point with Dirk at the 3.

Dirk cannot play the 3 against all teams. He already plays the 3 lots of the time on the offensive end though, and sometimes plays it on the defensive end as well.

Dirks offensive game is that of a SF, he can drive and he can shoot outside. He has some PF post up moves, but it isn't really his strength.

He can play the SF against some players though, and I think Odom is one of them. There are several other lineups that he would just abuse the SF. In fact some teams have resorted to playing their SF against Dirk because he abuses the Pf's so badly.

As long as they have Marion, who cares though, because if you need to move Bosh to the C and Dirk to the PF for a while and Marion at the SF OK. Have a lineup that Dirk can play the SF, then Dirk/Bosh/Haywood. If Marion has to stay at the SF, then Dirk/Bosh/Haywood rotate between the PF/C depending on how tough the other teams Bigs are.

Dirk at the C is only bad when he ends up the last line of defense - offensively he is fine, and very few Centers can abuse him even in the post.

I am just saying that Dirk and Bosh could co-exist since they both work their offense differently, and both would be very hard to guard. They would both need a good defensive Center for part of the game with them against some teams though.

My issue with Dirk at the 3 has nothing to do with offense. Put Dirk and Bosh anywhere on the court at whatever position and they'd do wonders. My issue is strictly Dirk having to defend a 3.

If I remember correctly, MavsAddict didn't have Marion in the starting lineup, it was this:

Haywood
Bosh
Dirk
Roddy
Kidd

This means putting Bosh or Dirk on a 3. I'm sorry but that is a horrid mismatch...

[Mavericks Rockets Fan]

Originally Posted by mavs777

If bosh comes he is starting for sure... Probably at the 5 you don't put an elite player on the bench so if bosh comes it will be like this Kidd---roddy/jet---marion---dirk----bosh

This sounds more plausible if we did get Bosh. However, we'd lose some defense and rebounding if we place Bosh at the 5. Why is why I think getting Bosh is a last resort if we don't get anyone else...

[Rick41]

Give me Antoine Walker in his comeback attempt...

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

I am just saying that Dirk and Bosh could co-exist since they both work their offense differently, and both would be very hard to guard. They would both need a good defensive Center for part of the game with them against some teams though.

I'm not sure why you have this notion that Dirk and bosh work their games differently. They have a ton of overlap in their offensive games, and work from the same areas of the floor a lot.

Beyond that, they are not the kind of players that will create a lot of offense working off of each other. They can't pick and roll, and they're not going to be dive cutting while the other is at the high post.

Trying to figure out how to get Bosh and Dirk to coexist would certainly fall under the category of "good problem", but their offenses are really not compatible.

As to the position question, as I've said many times on this board, in the NBA you are what you can defend. Dirk is not a SF because he can not guard the majority of small forwards in the NBA. Obviously Marion provides enough flexibility that you could find certain matchups to make it work, but a Haywood/Bosh/Dirk front line could not be counted on to log big minutes or close games consistently.

The biggest plus for getting Bosh has nothing to do with playing with Dirk, it's the fact that you would have a franchise player after Dirk slips. Bosh and Dirk together in their primes is far from ideal.

[mpb319]

I want either Bosh or JJohnson.

The thing that people are missing about the Dirk/Bosh lineup...if Haywood is resigned and Damp boomerangs back is that it gives us flexibility.

Dirk,Bosh,Marion,Butler,Kidd would likely be the starting 5 against most if not all teams.
We then have the bench of RoddyB, Haywood, Najera, JJ, and some Toronto bad contract(Marcus Banks?) (I think JET would fit in Toronto and he isn't as bad as many of us think), Stevenson, Carroll, and Damp.

[sike]

I would take Bosh over JJ. But if they made that move I think it would signal the Roddy/Bosh era...and the Dirk era would be ending with Dirk needing to take a supporting role.

Though I hate saying it, I wouldn't be surprised if this approach would be the most prudent to winning a ring. (If Wade and LBJ are out of the question)

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by sike

I would take Bosh over JJ. But if they made that move I think it would signal the Roddy/Bosh era...and the Dirk era would be ending with Dirk needing to take a supporting role.

Dirk > Bosh

When he finally loses a step, you can start talking about Dirk taking a supporting role...

[sike]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Dirk > Bosh

When he finally loses a step, you can start talking about Dirk taking a supporting role...

I agree with the principle, and there is no doubt that Dirk is a better offensive player...and is a greater player when all is said and done.

But,

Bosh is 26 and an easier pillar to build around.

I wanna see the Dust chip used to make the Mavs as good as they can be now and for the future.

[clutch#41]

[QUOTE=mpb319;1101643]I want either Bosh or JJohnson.
QUOTE]

i dont understand all the hype about joe johnson?? i understand he's a real SG and younger than butler...but theres too many bad thing's to say about him then good.id rather go in next season with butler at the 2 then johnson.

[grndmstr_c]

[QUOTE=clutch#41;1101676]

Originally Posted by mpb319

I want either Bosh or JJohnson.
QUOTE]

i dont understand all the hype about joe johnson?? i understand he's a real SG and younger than butler...but theres too many bad thing's to say about him then good.id rather go in next season with butler at the 2 then johnson.

Of course you would say that.

[sike]

Can I ask why Al Jefferson is listed as an option?

[clutch#41]

[QUOTE=grndmstr_c;1101677]

Originally Posted by clutch#41

Of course you would say that.

i dont see all the hype about him..can someone tell me how he makes us better???? i can possibly see one more win next year with him i suppose.....

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I'm not sure why you have this notion that Dirk and bosh work their games differently. They have a ton of overlap in their offensive games, and work from the same areas of the floor a lot.

Beyond that, they are not the kind of players that will create a lot of offense working off of each other. They can't pick and roll, and they're not going to be dive cutting while the other is at the high post.

Trying to figure out how to get Bosh and Dirk to coexist would certainly fall under the category of "good problem", but their offenses are really not compatible.

As to the position question, as I've said many times on this board, in the NBA you are what you can defend. Dirk is not a SF because he can not guard the majority of small forwards in the NBA. Obviously Marion provides enough flexibility that you could find certain matchups to make it work, but a Haywood/Bosh/Dirk front line could not be counted on to log big minutes or close games consistently.

The biggest plus for getting Bosh has nothing to do with playing with Dirk, it's the fact that you would have a franchise player after Dirk slips. Bosh and Dirk together in their primes is far from ideal.

Now this is some of the constructive debate I like.

From what I have seen though, you are only partially correct. Bosh's game is 18' in. He does lots from the FT line and elbow and is mainly but not exclusively a face up player. He also has some inside game, but gets in trouble there because he is not that bulky - much like Dirk.

Dirk has range out to 30' consistently. While he is not really a cutter, he can create at any time. Putting two 7' who both have range, but both can slash is a good thing.

While you don't think they could work off each other, I think they could offensively - but they would need cutters.

Now - as far as Dirk being a SF -- no he is not, and no he can't defend any of the elite SF's. He can defend the weaker ones though, and he can defend some of them. While you are correct that it wouldn't be a mainstay -- he could play there against some match-ups, and they could go Zone easy enough out of it - with Dirk, Bosh, and Haywood all on rotations to the middle.

Of course, Dirk couldn't defend the SF, but if they defended Dirk with a SF -- what keeps Dirk from posting up, or Bosh, or even Haywood? Size does make a difference.

Now offense isn't compatible -- means you couldn't set up the offense on both sides at the elbow -- ? ? I mean the reason for twin towers, and high low games, and availability of pick n roll either side -- with spot up Dirk is not even intriguing to you? You consider it to be incompatible.

Roddy, Butler, Marion, Dirk, Bosh -- should be nasty good on offense and very good on defense. Maybe you close games with this lineup.

Kidd, Stevenson, Marion, Bosh, Haywood -- with Dirk and Caron resting.

You know you can go Kidd, Caron, Marion, Dirk, Haywood - for large stretches if needed.

Kidd, Terry, Butler, Bosh, and Dirk could kill the zone.

While it wouldn't be traditional -- I can see where it would be very flexible if designed and run properly.


<edit>
Think Parish, McHale, Bird

[clutch#41]

im 110% down to get bosh..to me at SG its either dwade or Lebron..i dont see how JJ gets us over the "hump" or makes us signifantly better than last season..but bosh,dwade,or lebron makes us title contenders!

[mpb319]

Joe Johnson makes us better because he is a true SG with ball handling, playmaking, and 3 pt shooting ability.

I think he looked bad in the last playoffs because of the uncertainty of his situation and the fact that he was the number 1 guy the other teams could focus on.

Haywood, Dirk, Marion, Joe Johnson, Kidd
Roddy, JET, Najera, (Atlanta Throw in - Maurice Evans maybe... if we end up keeping JET then I think we should try to include JJB in the trade and they will likely want Butler) Damp (if he boomerangs back), Stevenson, & Carroll. Look for another PF and or PF/C...maybe a MLE signing or 2nd round rookie, and a 3rd string PG.

[grndmstr_c]

My take on the Bosh/Dirk pairing is simply this. While they're clearly not an ideal combo defensively as both are PF's who lean to the skinny side of things, they're arguably the two most dominant - and here's the real kicker - most flexible scorers at the big positions (PF/C) in the league. They'd keep one another fresh because they'd be able to sub for one another so well, meaning energetic offensive end-of-game execution from both would be consistently attainable even in the most tightly contested games, they'd regularly put opposing front courts in foul trouble, and having both out on the court together would be all but guaranteed to expose a mismatch in Dallas' favor every trip down the court against just about every team they'd face.

[sike]

is there any way Bosh could come to Dallas without Roddy going out?

[sefant77]

Of course i take Bosh and pair him with Dirk if the better options (James/SG) arent available. But then i really want Haywood back here because u will need a real center for Lakers and Magic.

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by sike

is there any way Bosh could come to Dallas without Roddy going out?

We would probably have to take on one of there bad contracts like Banks, Butler- Damp- JJB for Banks and Bosh

[sike]

Originally Posted by mavs777

We would probably have to take on one of there bad contracts like Banks, Butler- Damp- JJB for Banks and Bosh

I heard on ESPN radio that they would like to move Jose Calderon's big contract with Bosh...which I would be MORE than happy with.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by sike

is there any way Bosh could come to Dallas without Roddy going out?

It just depends on how the negotiations shake out. If Bosh has two teams that he'd be equally happy playing for exploring S&T talks, there could easily be a mini bidding war over the other pieces in the deal that would be necessary to secure the Raptors cooperation, and it seems to me that could easily turn into a Booby-or-no-deal kind of situation.

I'm sympathetic to what I expect your thinking is. If Booby develops like I think he's capable of, he would thrive playing with Dirk and Bosh. That's the kind of quickness and court vision you want when you're rolling out a PF/C tandem who each have to be guarded closely 18+ feet from the basket.

[sike]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I'm sympathetic to what I expect your thinking is. If Booby develops like I think he's capable of, he would thrive playing with Dirk and Bosh. That's the kind of quickness and court vision you want when you're rolling out a PF/C tandem who each have to be guarded closely 18+ feet from the basket.

Indeed. If the big off season move is for Bosh, I'd be significantly less optimistic about the team's chances if it means Roddy's moving on.

If the move is for Wade, Roddy becomes far more expendable in my eyes.

The team MUST have a guard presence that can get to the rim. (I think I may be the first Mavs fan to suggest this)

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by sike

The team MUST have a guard presence that can get to the rim. (I think I may be the first Mavs fan to suggest this)

I think you are.

We should have never let Hassell, Buckner and Green walk

[Mav Addict]

Personally I wouldn't give up Roddy unless its for Lebron or Wade.

That a be a no go for anyone else including Bosh or JJ...

[sike]

Originally Posted by Mav Addict

Personally I wouldn't give up Roddy unless its for Lebron or Wade.

That a be a no go for anyone else including Bosh or JJ...

I think I might agree...I'm almost positive I wouldn't do it for JJ.

On Bosh, I would need to seriously ponder it...

[Mav Addict]

Originally Posted by sike

I think I might agree...I'm almost positive I wouldn't do it for JJ.

On Bosh, I would need to seriously ponder it...

I would trade my mother away if we could keep Roddy and add Bosh but give them back JT or Barea

I would also consider trading Donnie before I trade Roddy

Dust+Caron+JT/Barea+Mom
for
Bosh and Calderon

[sike]

Originally Posted by Mav Addict

I would trade my mother away if...

but lets be honest...she is way past her prime

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by sefant77

I think you are.

We should have never let Hassell, Buckner and Green walk

or Eddie Jones

[Mav Addict]

Originally Posted by sike

but lets be honest...she is way past her prime

So was Kidd, but you see what happened....

[mavs777]

So what kind of deal would we have to make to get calderon and bosh? I would think JJB- Damp- and Butler may not be enough

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by sike

I think I might agree...I'm almost positive I wouldn't do it for JJ.

On Bosh, I would need to seriously ponder it...

If you include Roddy for Bosh, your starting 2-guard is Jason Terry with Barea backing him up.

One step forward, two steps back...

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by Mav Addict

I would trade my mother away if we could keep Roddy and add Bosh but give them back JT or Barea

I would also consider trading Donnie before I trade Roddy

Dust+Caron+JT/Barea+Mom
for
Bosh and Calderon

I think Mom's salary makes it work.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by mavs777

So what kind of deal would we have to make to get calderon and bosh? I would think JJB- Damp- and Butler may not be enough

....3 first rounders and cash, should seal it. Toronto's working on the wrong side of leverage. Bosh can walk to NY.....then again Houston comes back with Hill....and cash...

[Zki41]

We should orchestrate two separate trades ... one trade centered around Butler, and one trade centered around the DUST Chip. I think we should go for Joe Johnson and Iguodala. Butler can fill Iguodala's role in Philly and allow them to get some financial flexibility to rebuild ... best combo of talent and financial savings Philly could potentially get for Iggy if they are looking to move him.

Johnson and Iggy are both multi-faceted guard who both have been carrying their teams, but really should be the second best player on their team. Both players would benefit from Dirk's and each others presence. Defenses would be spread more thing so each player would probably shoot at a higher percentage. Also both are athletic and can defend to much better level than anyone we have had at SG in a long time. Johnson is a capable ball handler and has played point for the Hawks several time throughout their season. Getting him would allow us to rest Kidd and be able to play Beaubois alongside Johnson, either as SG or PG. We will have to bring Marion off the bench, but that just gives us a lot more versatility. We can have big line ups, like Johnson, Iggy, Marion, Dirk, Haywood ... or go smaller, with Kidd/Roddy, Johnson, Iggy, Marion, Dirk (or even smaller). Marion can stay fresh for when we really need his defensive specialty, and hopefully having less minutes can make him more efficient at getting garbage points.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by Zki41

We should orchestrate two separate trades ... one trade centered around Butler, and one trade centered around the DUST Chip. I think we should go for Joe Johnson and Iguodala.

I've thought about that, and while I don't know that's it's possible without losing Booby, I think that'd be about the best possible Wade- and Lebron-less summer.

[bobatundi]

I could see us getting Johnson without Damp...something like Butler & Terry for Johnson & Pachulia. Zaza then becomes our backup C, playing 10 a game behind Haywood, with Dirk sometimes playing the 5 while Marion mans the 4 against smaller lineups.

Atlanta does this because (a) Johnson is leaving anyway, and Butler is a nice consolation prize, and (b) dumping Pachulia saves them a lot of money. We can throw in cash and picks to sweeten the pot.