Kevin Martin

[sike]

I'd move Roddy for a guy like Martin.

As long as the FO is sure they can resign Chandler, Haywood+Roddy for Martin is moving a headcase and a unproven talent for an offensive beast.

[kg_veteran]

Martin's PER is 21.6.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by sike

I'd move Roddy for a guy like Martin.

As long as the FO is sure they can resign Chandler, Haywood+Roddy for Martin is moving a headcase and a unproven talent for an offensive beast.

This.


(even an alien can get it right by accident every now & again...)

[BGMaverick9]

My only concern would be defensively with Martin, I would be inclined to move Marion in as a starter.

I'll see what I can dig up today...

[stuportremens]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Martin's PER is 21.6.

Yes, and his current Defensive Rating is 114 and his defensive win shares is at 0.1 which is godawful.

Roddy's drtg was at 107 last year and 0.8 def win shares, which is bad, too but at least you still expect him to improve, he was just a rookie after all.

18.5 PER / 107 drtg is at least as good as 21.6 PER / 114 drtg as far as overall production is concerned.

Martin doesn't defend. He doesn't pass. He doesn't rebound. He just scores.
He's the definition of a one-dimensional player.

Plus with roddy you can pair him with Kidd agains small combo guards, because he's quick enough to keep up with them. Martin + Kidd against small combos is suicide.

[Folterkammer]

If we move Haywood+Roddy for Martin ( lets do this! ), we should move stevenson and his expiring for a defensive minded backup center.
Ian Mahinmi has got talent but I want more insurance for a playoff run.
Besides that Martin would weaken our defense but definitely give us the 2nd option on offense we are lacking right now

[Rick41]

Originally Posted by sike

I'd move Roddy for a guy like Martin.

As long as the FO is sure they can resign Chandler, Haywood+Roddy for Martin is moving a headcase and a unproven talent for an offensive beast.

I'm sure they will resign Tyson in the summer. Hopefully he isn't a contract whore and doesn't play us like Haywood.

Still I'm skeptical about sending Roddy if that's what it takes to seal the deal.

[Rick41]

Originally Posted by Folterkammer

If we move Haywood+Roddy for Martin ( lets do this! ), we should move stevenson and his expiring for a defensive minded backup center.
Ian Mahinmi has got talent but I want more insurance for a playoff run.
Besides that Martin would weaken our defense but definitely give us the 2nd option on offense we are lacking right now

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think Stevenson is an expiring.

[sefant77]

Haywood and Roddy for Martin? No way in freaking hell. The Rockets "paid" just Carl Landry for him.

Im also still not sold on Mahinmi. Dirk/Chandler/Mahinmi vs Gasol/Bynum/Odom doesnt sound that good anymore.

Martin is way too often a disappairing act in the 4th quarter. Thats the guy we want as playoff Robin? His legacy until now is to tear apart bad teams.

Our backcourt defense will be a pure joke. Kidd-Martin-Terry-Barea. One guy that can defend with restrictions and three others that cant defend a chair. Yeah lets beat LA, Miami or Boston with this...

I do a Haywood/Cardinal/Novak for Martin swap if Haywood need to be removed of the locker room. Just then.

It has a reason why the Rockets wanna trade Martin "just" for a center that suck a** right now. Maybe because Martin isnt that great...

[FromDownTown!]

I just don't see the front office moving Roddy.

I don't know if it works and without thinking it through thoroughly, but how about Hawood/butler/DoJo, for K-Mart2 and Shane Battier. I have NO idea why Houston would do it.

[dalmations202]

Hate to say this, but if I were Donnie, I'd throw out there Butler/Haywood + maybe cash for Martin/Battier.

Kidd, Martin, Marion, Dirk, Chandler with Terry, Roddy, Stevenson, Battier, Mahimni/Ajinca makes more sense in the long run, IMO.

Kidd, Martin, Tuff juice with Marion out of position -- or Kidd, Martin, Marion with Battier as the backup to Marion and Dirk. IMO, defensively we would be better with the second group and offensively we wouldn't lose anything.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Martin's PER is 21.6.

Ahh...my bad I was looking at NBA efficiency ratings.

Where did you find the PER numbers?

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

Hate to say this, but if I were Donnie, I'd throw out there Butler/Haywood + maybe cash for Martin/Battier.

Kidd, Martin, Marion, Dirk, Chandler with Terry, Roddy, Stevenson, Battier, Mahimni/Ajinca makes more sense in the long run, IMO.

Kidd, Martin, Tuff juice with Marion out of position -- or Kidd, Martin, Marion with Battier as the backup to Marion and Dirk. IMO, defensively we would be better with the second group and offensively we wouldn't lose anything.

Battier is pretty much done, we dont need him with Marion on the team.

[stuportremens]

You can find all kinds of numbers here:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...martike02.html

Don't forget to check the defensive stats. They're epic in a very bad way.

[jthig32]

I love trade threads. You have people using the "fact" that the Rockets want to trade Martin as proof that he's not that great...except that there's absolutely no evidence that the Rockets are open at all to trading Martin.

And you have someone quoting defensive win shares as if it's some sort of concrete evidence.

I'm not arguing that Martin is a good defender. But if you're going to use DWS and the PER of one season of Roddy in which he was coddled and used only in the best matchups to make the case that we'd be better off with Roddy than Martin for the near future, I would respectfully submit that you need to have your head examined.

Personally, I'm not at all sure that Houston would trade Martin for Haywood and Roddy.

[LonghornDub]

I'd be a bit uneasy doing it for Roddy, but I'd still do it.

Obviously I'd do it in a heartbeat for DeShawn/Haywood, and then I would drink heavily in celebration.

[BGMaverick9]

Ok, I'll DEFINATELY have stuff to talk about, digging has already pulled up information.

I've got to finish wrapping stuff here with Phoenix prep then I'll start popping stuff on MMB this afternoon.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Battier is pretty much done, we dont need him with Marion on the team.

He is better than Cardinal and Novak -- he might even get burn in the playoffs. I think Battier would be a great veteran backup. He is also on an expiring contract.

I just don't see the Martin/Butler stuff working out, so he needs to be moved as well, if you get Martin, IMO. If Dirk is still your #1, and Martin your #2, and Terry? and Butler? Roddy? ............

Dirk #1
Martin #2

Then the rest, with Terry an actual 6th man, and Roddy playing a true Martin backup role. Cleans up roles much nicer than if Butler is still trying to play the #2 or #3 or who knows what role each night.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by stuportremens

Yes, and his current Defensive Rating is 114 and his defensive win shares is at 0.1 which is godawful.

Roddy's drtg was at 107 last year and 0.8 def win shares, which is bad, too but at least you still expect him to improve, he was just a rookie after all.

18.5 PER / 107 drtg is at least as good as 21.6 PER / 114 drtg as far as overall production is concerned.

Martin doesn't defend. He doesn't pass. He doesn't rebound. He just scores.
He's the definition of a one-dimensional player.

Plus with roddy you can pair him with Kidd agains small combo guards, because he's quick enough to keep up with them. Martin + Kidd against small combos is suicide.

Martin's defensive shortcomings are my only reservation about him, but let's be serious. Are you acquiring Martin to be a defensive stopper? Furthermore, are you expecting Roddy to be a defensive stopper (or even be a really good defender)? If you answer "yes" to either question, then I'd submit that your expectations are unrealistic.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Personally, I'm not at all sure that Houston would trade Martin for Haywood and Roddy.

Me either.

[stuportremens]

Martin is a flawed player and these flaws can be exployted which will happen in the playoffs.

In addition to that, he tends to feast on bad teams which he won't be able to in the playoffs.

He'd be an ideal 6th man to haunt the second units of our opponents (and as such he would probably deadly). So if he could be attained for Haywood and snacks, then ok).
He's like a bigger Jason Terry with a little more scoring and a little less 4th quarter cluchness. (Edit: and worse defense.)

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by stuportremens

Plus with roddy you can pair him with Kidd agains small combo guards, because he's quick enough to keep up with them.

Maybe we can pair Roddy with Kidd, but only if he comes back from injury this season and there isn't a lockout next season.

Kidd could be retired by the time Roddy touches the floor again...

[rabbitproof]

I don't trust Fish.

KMart for Wood/Stevenson is no-brainer.

KMart for Wood/Beaubois is harder but a must-fire as well.

I am not worried about our center position too much. Chandler is playing at a level where he should be playing 32-34 minutes. The question is foul trouble and injury. We'll be in trouble if he gets injured but I think depth can be covered by Mahinimi and Dirk.

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by stuportremens

Martin is a flawed player and these flaws can be exployted which will happen in the playoffs.

In addition to that, he tends to feast on bad teams which he won't be able to in the playoffs.

He'd be an ideal 6th man to haunt the second units of our opponents (and as such he would probably deadly). So if he could be attained for Haywood and snacks, then ok).
He's like a bigger Jason Terry with a little more scoring and a little less 4th quarter cluchness. (Edit: and worse defense.)

this

And like i said, we wont have any guard material to cover up his defense.

And last time i checked defense won championship and not offense

[stuportremens]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Martin's defensive shortcomings are my only reservation about him, but let's be serious. Are you acquiring Martin to be a defensive stopper? Furthermore, are you expecting Roddy to be a defensive stopper (or even be a really good defender)? If you answer "yes" to either question, then I'd submit that your expectations are unrealistic.

No, Roddy isn't a defensive stopper.
But he is able to keep up with quick guards (which is important if you also have Kidd on the court) and he has the physical tools to be at least an ok defender and he has already been better than Kevin Martin.

Further, Martin isn't just "not a defensive stopper", he's really, really, really bad. Apart from Steve Nash, it's very difficult to find another "star" player as bad defensively as Kevin Martin. You can mask this in the regular season, but against really good teams in the playoffs? I don't thinks so.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by stuportremens

Martin is a flawed player and these flaws can be exployted which will happen in the playoffs.

In addition to that, he tends to feast on bad teams which he won't be able to in the playoffs.

He'd be an ideal 6th man to haunt the second units of our opponents (and as such he would probably deadly). So if he could be attained for Haywood and snacks, then ok).
He's like a bigger Jason Terry with a little more scoring and a little less 4th quarter cluchness. (Edit: and worse defense.)

How many 6th men do you know that are averaging 26 points per 36 minutes on a 62.6 (!!!) True Shooting Percentage?

He's a little better than a sixth man, me thinks. Remember, he's only going to be our second option on offense not asked to carry the load.

[rabbitproof]

What we're losing would be a malcontent center who aspires to shoot 50% on his free throws this year, not a defensive guard.

Ultimately, Stevenson and Marion would still be the defensive swingmen on this roster. That does not change.

I do see quite a lot of duplication in talent between JET/Martin.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

What we're losing would be a malcontent center who aspires to shoot 50% on his free throws this year, not a defensive guard.

Ultimately, Stevenson and Marion would still be the defensive swingmen on this roster. That does not change.

I do see quite a lot of duplication in talent between JET/Martin.

At the same time, you could say the same thing about Roddy and JET.

[stuportremens]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Maybe we can pair Roddy with Kidd, but only if he comes back from injury this season and there isn't a lockout next season.

Kidd could be retired by the time Roddy touches the floor again...

With this team as currently constructed, it's anyway over after the next year.
Kidd, Terry, Butler, Marion all will be too old by then and Dirk will likely be too old for the Batman role, too.

Roddy will still be young and if you blow it up you can rebuild around him or use him as a trade asset. In this situation, you only trade Roddy if you get someone who gives you a very god chance to win it all.

But not Kevin Martin, he just solves one problem, creates another and has no upside, unlike Roddy.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

One thing I would bet on is Haywood asking for a trade....at least eventually.....

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

At the same time, you could say the same thing about Roddy and JET.

Yes but Roddy+JET+Haywood

or JET+Martin

Do you see it?

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Yes but Roddy+JET+Haywood

or JET+Martin

Do you see it?

Do I see what? I was always bad at riddles.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

I banged that out quickly just so that I could think through it, but I agree. Fixed:

Chandler/Mahinmi 48
Nowitzki 36 - Marion 12
Marion 20 - Butler 20 - Stevenson 8
Martin 36 - Terry 12
Kidd 32 - Terry 16

Hope this is just your ideal rotation. Because you're clinically insane if you think RC will completely remove JJB from the rotation if we get Martin. Marion won't be playing 32 minutes to Butler's 20, either. Quote me now, you can bank on all three of those not happening.

If we did acquire Martin, Marion should definitely start. I think Marion should start now, honestly. Though it's not as big an issue with the way Caron has been playing as of late. Even if we get Martin, I find it highly unlikely that RC starts Marion over Butler.

[Dirkgreatness]

Where is Roddy even mentioned in the trade rumor? If I'm the front office I'll find a way to trade DoJo instead of Roddy. Hell throw I'n some picks if that's what it takes.

[Underdog]

Kevin Martin is averaging 8.6 FTA's per game this season.

Dirk (our biggest offensive threat) is averaging 5.8 per game and Barea (our only other player who attacks the paint) is averaging 2.2 FTA's per game.

Don't underestimate easy buckets, especially if Roddy doesn't come back this season...

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Dirkgreatness

Where is Roddy even mentioned in the trade rumor? If I'm the front office I'll find a way to trade DoJo instead of Roddy. Hell throw I'n some picks if that's what it takes.

The current rumor is Haywood/Stevenson for Martin - we're just contemplating a worst-case scenario here...

[rabbitproof]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

At the same time, you could say the same thing about Roddy and JET.

True. I think the difference there is one is future-thinking - as in potential franchise player, if you believe Dirk's prognosis.

I'm still talking myself into not needing Haywood as a backup and if his attitude is garbage, it's easier, but I am a little wary of going up against a frontline as big as the Lakers with an army of swingmen.

In the end, I also find it hard to believe Houston trades away its best player for an older player with diva qualities who has been a part-time (ok, 65%) starter for most his career - even if said player plays a harder to fill position. It smells like Fish's rumormongering..

[dash]

There is no way Houston does that trade. I like Beaubois but that is a bad trade for the Rockets.

[fluid.forty.one]

Haywood/Roddy for Martin is moneyyyy. Martin is basically Roddys ceiling and exactly the type of offensive player we need... and we've stockpiled athletic back-up centers so I'm not really worried there.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by CadBane

Hope this is just your ideal rotation. Because you're clinically insane if you think RC will completely remove JJB from the rotation if we get Martin. Marion won't be playing 32 minutes to Butler's 20, either. Quote me now, you can bank on all three of those not happening.

If we did acquire Martin, Marion should definitely start. I think Marion should start now, honestly. Though it's not as big an issue with the way Caron has been playing as of late. Even if we get Martin, I find it highly unlikely that RC starts Marion over Butler.

I know it's fun to hate on Carlisle for playing JJB, but whose minutes do you think JJB is going to eat into? We've already got a logjam at SF, and I'm darn near positive that he's not going to take Kidd's or Terry's minutes below 30 minutes a game. So if you trade for Martin, I'm not sure who JJB will be taking minutes from. If you give Martin, Kidd, and Terry roughly 30 minutes a piece at the two guard spots, that leaves maybe 6 minutes max for JJB. That's not really a rotation player.