The Bomber as School Reformer - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Underdog · 10-11-2008, 08:35 AM

Terrorist by association?

Bush & the bin Ladens

Silk Smoov · 10-11-2008, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

McCain's attacks fuel dangerous hatred

By Frank Schaeffer
October 10, 2008

John McCain: If your campaign does not stop equating Sen. Barack Obama with terrorism, questioning his patriotism and portraying Mr. Obama as "not one of us," I accuse you of deliberately feeding the most unhinged elements of our society the red meat of hate, and therefore of potentially instigating violence.

At a Sarah Palin rally, someone called out, "Kill him!" At one of your rallies, someone called out, "Terrorist!" Neither was answered or denounced by you or your running mate, as the crowd laughed and cheered. At your campaign event Wednesday in Bethlehem, Pa., the crowd was seething with hatred for the Democratic nominee - an attitude encouraged in speeches there by you, your running mate, your wife and the local Republican chairman.

Shame!

John McCain: In 2000, as a lifelong Republican, I worked to get you elected instead of George W. Bush. In return, you wrote an endorsement of one of my books about military service. You seemed to be a man who put principle ahead of mere political gain.

You have changed. You have a choice: Go down in history as a decent senator and an honorable military man with many successes, or go down in history as the latest abettor of right-wing extremist hate.

John McCain, you are no fool, and you understand the depths of hatred that surround the issue of race in this country. You also know that, post-9/11, to call someone a friend of a terrorist is a very serious matter. You also know we are a bitterly divided country on many other issues. You know that, sadly, in America, violence is always just a moment away. You know that there are plenty of crazy people out there.

Stop! Think! Your rallies are beginning to look, sound, feel and smell like lynch mobs.

John McCain, you're walking a perilous line. If you do not stand up for all that is good in America and declare that Senator Obama is a patriot, fit for office, and denounce your hate-filled supporters when they scream out "Terrorist" or "Kill him," history will hold you responsible for all that follows.

John McCain and Sarah Palin, you are playing with fire, and you know it. You are unleashing the monster of American hatred and prejudice, to the peril of all of us. You are doing this in wartime. You are doing this as our economy collapses. You are doing this in a country with a history of assassinations.

Change the atmosphere of your campaign. Talk about the issues at hand. Make your case. But stop stirring up the lunatic fringe of haters, or risk suffering the judgment of history and the loathing of the American people - forever.

We will hold you responsible.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opi...,7557571.story

Great, Great Article from a Longtime Republican. This article hit a homerun about this issue. These rallys are beginning to sound like the modern version of Lynch mobs. Seriously, I listened to bits and pieces and it is just a shame. I could NEVER vote for a McCain/Palin ticket, and I will do my best to bring as many voters to vote for Obama as I can. I say shame on McCain/Palin and the bitter hatred followers who dont denounce these kinds of acts. This is clearly hatred pep rallys. I have noticed that PA is beginning to be a center point of this hatred. I think that Obama should make PA a focal point, and denounce this kind of hatred.

Silk Smoov · 10-11-2008, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Terrorist by association?

Bush & the bin Ladens

Yes, it is. I also associate McCain and Bush as close allys as well

I wonder if this was taken right after the 911 attacks, where all planes were ordered grounded, except a plane with the Bin Ladens were allowed to take off and leave the United States. Looks kinda like Bush giving them a goodbye rally as there were just about to take off.

mary · 10-12-2008, 10:43 PM

Quote:

"He Lied" About Bill Ayers?
October 10, 2008

McCain cranks out some false and misleading attacks on Obama's connection to a 1960s radical.

Summary
In a TV ad, McCain says Obama "lied" about his association with William Ayers, a former bomb-setting, anti-war radical from the 1960s and '70s. We find McCain's claim to be groundless. New details have recently come to light, but nothing Obama said previously has been shown to be false.

In a Web ad and in repeated attacks from the stump, McCain describes the two as associates, and Palin claims they "pal around" together. But so far as is known, their relationship was never very close. An Obama spokesman says they last saw each other in a chance encounter on the street more than a year ago.

McCain says in an Internet ad that the two "ran a radical 'education' foundation" in Chicago. But the supposedly "radical" group was supported by a Republican governor and included on its board prominent local civic leaders, including one former Nixon administration official who has given $1,500 to McCain's campaign this year. Education Week says the group's work "reflected mainstream thinking" among school reformers. The group was the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, started by a $49 million grant from the Annenberg Foundation, which was established by the publisher Walter Annenberg, a prominent Republican whose widow, Leonore, is a contributor to the McCain campaign.

(FactCheck.org, which is nonpartisan, also receives funding from the Annenberg Foundation. But we are in no way connected to the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, which finished its work long before we came into being in late 2003.)

For full details, please read on to our Analysis section.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2...ill_ayers.html

kg_veteran · 10-12-2008, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

[size=4]

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2...ill_ayers.html

It's sad when I have to fact check FactCheck.org. They offer their opinion that McCain's ad is wrong based upon their speculation as to the particulars of Obama's relationship with Ayers. This entry reads more like a column from the New York Times than a non-partisan effort.

What IS clear is that Obama has misrepesented his relationship with Ayers on a number of occasions, which FactCheck.org simply describes as "not volunteering the information." Or somesuch.

Sheesh.

dude1394 · 10-12-2008, 11:03 PM

Factchecks have become the new opinion pieces, much like most of the media's "reporting".

kg_veteran · 10-12-2008, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Factchecks have become the new opinion pieces, much like most of the media's "reporting".

Right. A non-partisan factchecker would simply state the facts, not offer speculative conclusions.

chumdawg · 10-12-2008, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

It's sad when I have to fact check FactCheck.org. They offer their opinion that McCain's ad is wrong based upon their speculation as to the particulars of Obama's relationship with Ayers. This entry reads more like a column from the New York Times than a non-partisan effort.

What IS clear is that Obama has misrepesented his relationship with Ayers on a number of occasions, which FactCheck.org simply describes as "not volunteering the information." Or somesuch.

Sheesh.

You're a fearmonger. Plain and simple.

Evilmav2 · 10-12-2008, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Terrorist by association?

Bush a terrorist? I'd say no, and Obama certainly isn't, but unlike McCain and probably just about any other fella who has ever run for the presidency of these United State, the One has associated with terrorists. Is that a good thing? Well, I bet any polling numbers concerning that kind of thing might skew a little bit more in the One's direction in Damascus, Syria or in Nairobi, Kenya than it would in Des Moines or Alburquerqe, but what the hell do I know?

kg_veteran · 10-12-2008, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You're a fearmonger. Plain and simple.

Keep those talking points and the namecalling coming. Anything to obfuscate, I suppose.

Look, we all know that you selected your choice for President like 13 year olds select the American Idol winner. Stop berating people that want to have a rational discussion about the issues. I know that The One sent you an e-mail telling you to shout down anybody in the d-m.com forum that had an opposing point of view, but you can knock it off now.

Evilmav2 · 10-13-2008, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

I know that The One sent you an e-mail telling you to shout down anybody in the d-m.com forum that had an opposing point of view, but you can knock it off now.

Great Mural Head of Obama says: "I Need You to go out and Talk to your Friends and Talk to your Neighbors. I Want You to Talk to them whether They are Independent or whether they are Republican. I want you to Argue with Them and Get In Their Face."

So Sayeth the Great Mural Head of Obama; So Doeth the Great Mural Head of Obama's followers and disciples...

chumdawg · 10-13-2008, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Keep those talking points and the namecalling coming. Anything to obfuscate, I suppose.

Look, we all know that you selected your choice for President like 13 year olds select the American Idol winner. Stop berating people that want to have a rational discussion about the issues. I know that The One sent you an e-mail telling you to shout down anybody in the d-m.com forum that had an opposing point of view, but you can knock it off now.

You don't want to have a rational discussion about the issues. You want to believe, and argue, that Obama is some sort of terrorist because he knows Bill Ayers. Your head is buried so deep in the far-right sand that you wouldn't know objective if it hit you in the face.

Usually Lurkin · 10-13-2008, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You don't want to have a rational discussion about the issues. You want to believe, and argue, that Obama is some sort of terrorist because he knows Bill Ayers. Your head is buried so deep in the far-right sand that you wouldn't know objective if it hit you in the face.

ugh. You've been failing at trying to get kg to call Obama a terrorist for about a page now. Failing that, and rather than listen to what kg really might be saying, you just tell him he wants to think Obama is a terrorist? It's terrible that you accuse anyone of lack of objectivity.

chumdawg · 10-13-2008, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

ugh. You've been failing at trying to get kg to call Obama a terrorist for about a page now. Failing that, and rather than listen to what kg really might be saying, you just tell him he wants to think Obama is a terrorist? It's terrible that you accuse anyone of lack of objectivity.

KG has been waving the flag that says Obama is a very dangerous person because of his relationship with Bill Ayers. He is the one who has to support that reach, not me.

Evilmav2 · 10-13-2008, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You don't want to have a rational discussion about the issues. You want to believe, and argue, that Obama is some sort of terrorist because he knows Bill Ayers. Your head is buried so deep in the far-right sand that you wouldn't know objective if it hit you in the face.

The Great Mural Heads of Obama say: "We are generally in Favor of having Rational Discussions with Friends and Neighbors about the Issues and about the Need for Change in this country. However, when Rational Discussion Fails with Independents and especially Republicans, We Want You to Get in their Face! We aren't going to be hoodwinked or bamboozled. So Sayeth the Great Mural Heads of Obama... "

chumdawg · 10-13-2008, 12:44 AM

EM, it's true that we have never seen anything like this before.

Once in a lifetime, I guess it is.

rabbitproof · 10-13-2008, 01:08 AM

Those murals are somewhat of a testament to Obama and are also somewhat of a testament to how much this current administration has failed us.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all those artists who see something beautiful in Obama are comparing it to the ugliness that has led America astray for quite a few years now.

Evilmav2 · 10-13-2008, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Those murals are somewhat of a testament to Obama and are also somewhat of a testament to how much this current administration has failed us.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all those artists who see something beautiful in Obama are comparing it to the ugliness that has led America astray for quite a few years now.

Great Mural Head of Obama says: "Beauty is indeed in the Eye of those who behold, and in the gaze of those who Believe. My Murals stand as Testament to your Belief, and your Belief stands witness to our Duty to deliver Change. We are the ones we've been waiting for, and that is why We won't allow you to slack off or be bamboozled or hoodwinked. Look into my eyes, and see that Hope is within our grasp. Look into my eyes, and see that our Belief can change this ugly world, and that our hope can bring the shining light of Obama murals to every street corner in this country of ours, to wash away the ugliness and leave my eyes staring down at you all, so that you all might finally see... "

rabbitproof · 10-13-2008, 01:39 AM

Slick, EM. You know how I fall for your tantalizing rhymes and hyperbole!

That said, if the economy was kicking ass, the dollar was sweet and our boys were at home, this election wouldn't be the hoppingest topic and we could keep drugging ourselves to some bullshit tv programming and junk food.

Mavdog · 10-13-2008, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

It's sad when I have to fact check FactCheck.org. They offer their opinion that McCain's ad is wrong based upon their speculation as to the particulars of Obama's relationship with Ayers. This entry reads more like a column from the New York Times than a non-partisan effort.

no, they offer up the facts...

Quote:

Summary
In a TV ad, McCain says Obama "lied" about his association with William Ayers, a former bomb-setting, anti-war radical from the 1960s and '70s. We find McCain's claim to be groundless. New details have recently come to light, but nothing Obama said previously has been shown to be false.

In a Web ad and in repeated attacks from the stump, McCain describes the two as associates, and Palin claims they "pal around" together. But so far as is known, their relationship was never very close. An Obama spokesman says they last saw each other in a chance encounter on the street more than a year ago.

it rests on what "pals around" entails. to be a "pal" one must have a recurring social relationship, and there has been NO evidence of ANY of these activities between obama and ayers.

unless of course you have some facts that contradicts the facts already mentioned.

well, do you?

Quote:

McCain says in an Internet ad that the two "ran a radical 'education' foundation" in Chicago. But the supposedly "radical" group was supported by a Republican governor and included on its board prominent local civic leaders, including one former Nixon administration official who has given $1,500 to McCain's campaign this year. Education Week says the group's work "reflected mainstream thinking" among school reformers. The group was the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, started by a $49 million grant from the Annenberg Foundation, which was established by the publisher Walter Annenberg, a prominent Republican whose widow, Leonore, is a contributor to the McCain campaign.

the facts above support the conclusion that the annenberg challenge was not "radical", unless of course you have some evidence that these fellow board members are "radicals"....do you? are we to believe that the mccain campaign is getting contrabutions from "radicals"?

so there are the facts, not opinions. it is the right that wishes to add its opinion of how they view the relationship in spite of the facts otherwise.

Usually Lurkin · 10-13-2008, 09:10 AM

those pictures do remind me of something. Some kind of hope that people once had in the world. Give me some CHANGE people once said

oh yeah.

great mural head of obama says: You do not see that last one up there. It is like my poor old grandmother, who is a typical white person. You are not bamboozled

mary · 10-13-2008, 09:17 AM

Murals are clearly evil.

I'm skeered.

Usually Lurkin · 10-13-2008, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

Murals are clearly evil.

I'm skeered.

yes. it is only paint, and represents only hope. Hero worship of political leaders is great. You clearly are not bamboozled. It is good to believe!

mary · 10-13-2008, 09:34 AM

Quote:

the facts above support the conclusion that the annenberg challenge was not "radical", unless of course you have some evidence that these fellow board members are "radicals"....do you? are we to believe that the mccain campaign is getting contrabutions from "radicals"?

Thanks for making that point Mavie. I was beginning to wonder if that part of the article was going to go completely ignored.

purplefrog · 10-13-2008, 10:02 AM

Interesting article on narcissistic leaders with a focus on business . It does not mention Obama (written in 2000), but I think it describes him very well and tells us that he might be a great president or a disaster.

http://www.maccoby.com/Articles/NarLeaders.shtml

Underdog · 10-13-2008, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilmav2

Bush a terrorist? I'd say no, and Obama certainly isn't, but unlike McCain and probably just about any other fella who has ever run for the presidency of these United State, the One has associated with terrorists.

Personally, I don't think either Bush or Obama are "terrorists by association"...

The point I was trying to make is that just about EVERY politician on the planet has dealt with unsavory characters at one time or another - it comes with the job...

If we shifted our view from terrorism to organized crime, it would be very hard to find an "honest" politician in Washington D.C. - not that everyone is "in on the take," but that large-scale criminals tend to dabble in politics...

If a politician wants to build a road in Rome, he has to deal with the Mafia - that doesn't make him a criminal...

Mavdog · 10-13-2008, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

yes. it is only paint, and represents only hope. Hero worship of political leaders is great. You clearly are not bamboozled. It is good to believe!

a tangental thought...

hero worship is surely not what is healthy for the public to fall into a trap with, but isn't there a void in our society of admiration?

iow, our political leadership fails to cultivate an image of personal contribution to our nation's good, of sacrifice on their behalf to give of themselves for our benefit.

instead we get inundated with stories of personal greed, of elected officials who trade their votes in an "I'll support your boondoggle if you'll support my boondoggle". nobody who wants to act for the collective betterment.

so no, hero worship is not healthy, yet wouldn't we all be better off if our leaders exhibit unselfishness, of dedication to what was best for us as a whole rather than "what's in it for me?"

yeah, darn idealist I know.

that's leadership, and if their faces were plastered on walls and murals in recognition of that what's wrong with that?

Underdog · 10-13-2008, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

those pictures do remind me of something. Some kind of hope that people once had in the world. Give me some CHANGE people once said

oh yeah.

great mural head of obama says: You do not see that last one up there. It is like my poor old grandmother, who is a typical white person. You are not bamboozled

Just sayin'....

purplefrog · 10-13-2008, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavdog

a tangental thought...

hero worship is surely not what is healthy for the public to fall into a trap with, but isn't there a void in our society of admiration?

iow, our political leadership fails to cultivate an image of personal contribution to our nation's good, of sacrifice on their behalf to give of themselves for our benefit.

instead we get inundated with stories of personal greed, of elected officials who trade their votes in an "I'll support your boondoggle if you'll support my boondoggle". nobody who wants to act for the collective betterment.

so no, hero worship is not healthy, yet wouldn't we all be better off if our leaders exhibit unselfishness, of dedication to what was best for us as a whole rather than "what's in it for me?"

yeah, darn idealist I know.

that's leadership, and if their faces were plastered on walls and murals in recognition of that what's wrong with that?

The problem is that Obama seems to encourage the infatuation and it does seem to me this campaign is "all about him". I don't think this will change if he is elected and his policies will reflect biases that further the promotion of Barack Obama as the savior of humankind. Humility and understanding one's limitations are important elements of effective leadership. I don't see these qualities in Obama.

Mavdog · 10-13-2008, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purplefrog

The problem is that Obama seems to encourage the infatuation and it does seem to me this campaign is "all about him". I don't think this will change if he is elected and his policies will reflect biases that further the promotion of Barack Obama as the savior of humankind. Humility and understanding one's limitations are important elements of effective leadership. I don't see these qualities in Obama.

first, the formatting of this thread is a pain in the butt.

how does obama "encourage the infatuation"? sure the campaign is about him, that's what a campaign needs to do to promote the candidacy.

I just don't see that there is a promotion of him s an all knowing, savior of mankind type of thing. I do hear obama express some humility and not having all the answers.

do some of his supporters take it too far? sure. the video of the kids singing was overboard for sure.

purplefrog · 10-13-2008, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavdog

first, the formatting of this thread is a pain in the butt.

how does obama "encourage the infatuation"? sure the campaign is about him, that's what a campaign needs to do to promote the candidacy.

I just don't see that there is a promotion of him s an all knowing, savior of mankind type of thing. I do hear obama express some humility and not having all the answers.

do some of his supporters take it too far? sure. the video of the kids singing was overboard for sure.

Imo, the shortly lived Obama presidential seal was over the top. He got rid of it after the press ridiculed his campaign but it did appear on his podium at least once. His address at the Democratic convention is another example. I guess this guy needs a stadium for all of his followers? The list of things kids under 12 can do to help his campaign is another (found on his web site). For example, asking kids to have an Obama sleepover sounds like he got the idea from Michael Jackson (sorry that was in poor taste, but you get the idea). That's a short list of things that have turned me off.

Usually Lurkin · 10-13-2008, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavdog

instead we get inundated with stories of personal greed, of elected officials who trade their votes in an "I'll support your boondoggle if you'll support my boondoggle". nobody who wants to act for the collective betterment.

An honest look at Obama will reveal that he is an old school, boondoggle swapping politician. You raise a fine point about the vacuum of respect. The real question, though, should be about how people respond to that vacuum. Throwing up the slickest politician because he is slickest is not the best reaction.

Usually Lurkin · 10-13-2008, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Just sayin'....

The great mural Lincoln would say: "Vote Republican. The survival of our nation depends on it."

rabbitproof · 10-13-2008, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purplefrog

Imo, the shortly lived Obama presidential seal was over the top. He got rid of it after the press ridiculed his campaign but it did appear on his podium at least once. His address at the Democratic convention is another example. I guess this guy needs a stadium for all of his followers? The list of things kids under 12 can do to help his campaign is another (found on his web site). For example, asking kids to have an Obama sleepover sounds like he got the idea from Michael Jackson (sorry that was in poor taste, but you get the idea). That's a short list of things that have turned me off.

Yall give him too much credit. I bet he hasn't read every word on his website just like he didn't design the seal. He's working in a thousand person operation and I'm sure someone whipped that on his site and some brand manager made the recommendation for the seal, which his advisers and managers took, and Obama might not even have known about it. It's like any national business, you're not going to know every marketing detail of every product.

I think these little things are over the top, too, but I don't automatically attribute it to him.

What was wrong with his convention speech? Why have confetti fall at the RNC? Both parties liked their respective set-ups and that's basically the purpose of a convention (get your base riled and ready to roll).

Usually Lurkin · 10-13-2008, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Yall give him too much credit. I bet he hasn't read every word on his website just like he didn't design the seal. He's working in a thousand person operation and I'm sure someone whipped that on his site and some brand manager made the recommendation for the seal, which his advisers and managers took, and Obama might not even have known about it. It's like any national business. . .

Well, I for one do think that this is how he will run national business. WHether it's him or his handlers, I think it's a fair critique.

rabbitproof · 10-13-2008, 04:21 PM

Then you must hate Bush.

The dude knows no such humility.

Usually Lurkin · 10-13-2008, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Then you must hate Bush.

The dude knows no such humility.

1) That's random.
2) I think that to stretch the metaphor that far, you could only say that Bush is all about Bush's policies, and Obama is all about Obama's image.

Underdog · 10-13-2008, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

you could only say that Bush is all about Bush's policies

Bush is all about Cheney's policies (unless you're referring to his other handler, Daddy Bush?)

Usually Lurkin · 10-13-2008, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Bush is all about Cheney's policies (unless you're referring to his other handler, Daddy Bush?)

That his decisions are made by handlers was your defense for Obama.

purplefrog · 10-13-2008, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Yall give him too much credit. I bet he hasn't read every word on his website just like he didn't design the seal. He's working in a thousand person operation and I'm sure someone whipped that on his site and some brand manager made the recommendation for the seal, which his advisers and managers took, and Obama might not even have known about it. It's like any national business, you're not going to know every marketing detail of every product.

I think these little things are over the top, too, but I don't automatically attribute it to him.

What was wrong with his convention speech? Why have confetti fall at the RNC? Both parties liked their respective set-ups and that's basically the purpose of a convention (get your base riled and ready to roll).

But I've never seen any other pres candidate do these things. So what's up? Somehow his handlers must feel that these tactics are in line with their candidate's message.

I really can't explain it fully but the Obama campaign bugs the heck out of me. Apart from any discussion of his policies, it just feels wrong. People are too infatuated with him and he will likely lead without the appropriate checks and balances. Just like Bush did for 6 years.