Could this Mavs team win the title with fill-in-blank in place of Dirk? - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

LRB · 03-30-2007, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u2sarajevo

We only need one thread... so I merged your two almost identical threads...

Three cheers for U2.

chumdawg · 03-30-2007, 11:52 PM

When it comes to Stackhouse specifically...granted, you are running into some problems inasmuch as they play similar (at least) positions. But I think you sell Stackhouse way short if you think his effort level would be less if Kobe were here instead of Dirk. Stack is a feiry competitor, and when it comes down to it I doubt you would hear him say that he defers to Dirk's leadership at that. Stack looks to me like a leader every minute he's on the floor.

LRB · 03-30-2007, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

When it comes to Stackhouse specifically...granted, you are running into some problems inasmuch as they play similar (at least) positions. But I think you sell Stackhouse way short if you think his effort level would be less if Kobe were here instead of Dirk. Stack is a feiry competitor, and when it comes down to it I doubt you would hear him say that he defers to Dirk's leadership at that. Stack looks to me like a leader every minute he's on the floor.

Stackhouse is human. Sure he'd try to win no matter what, but would he put as much effort into the team concept being pushed by Avery? I seriously doubt it. The current mavs feed off each other, throw a rotten apple in the mix and the chemistry is bound to have a measurable negative effect.

chumdawg · 03-31-2007, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRB

Stackhouse is human. Sure he'd try to win no matter what, but would he put as much effort into the team concept being pushed by Avery? I seriously doubt it. The current mavs feed off each other, throw a rotten apple in the mix and the chemistry is bound to have a measurable negative effect.

Okay...

Who feeds off who more?

Stack off Dirk?

or Dirk off Stack?

LRB · 03-31-2007, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Okay...

Who feeds off who more?

Stack off Dirk?

or Dirk off Stack?

I'd say that the whole team including Stack feeds off of Dirk more, but Stack provides a very important and key piece to this team as well. But if you want to see a preview of Stack with Kobe, just look at Stack with MJ in Washinton. Dirk is the foundation of this team. He sets the example. Stack provides a fiery and passionate emotional boost. Both have made great strides in developing a well balanced and team focused game. Both are inspirations, and both are made better by the other.

I just don't see this same level of feeding off each other with a cancerous egomaniac like Kobe. And I don't think that Avery has the skills of a Phil Jackson to handle outlandish personalities. Avery doesn't have the skins on the wall to command Kobe's respect the way Phil does.

The Lakers won because of having 2 of the best players in the league, in spite of Kobe's and Shaq's ego battles, not because of them. Kobe has yet to learn how to channel his ego for the team game the way Jordan did during the Bulls title run.

chumdawg · 03-31-2007, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRB

I'd say that the whole team including Stack feeds off of Dirk more, but Stack provides a very important and key piece to this team as well. But if you want to see a preview of Stack with Kobe, just look at Stack with MJ in Washinton. Dirk is the foundation of this team. He sets the example. Stack provides a fiery and passionate emotional boost. Both have made great strides in developing a well balanced and team focused game. Both are inspirations, and both are made better by the other.

I just don't see this same level of feeding off each other with a cancerous egomaniac like Kobe. And I don't think that Avery has the skills of a Phil Jackson to handle outlandish personalities. Avery doesn't have the skins on the wall to command Kobe's respect the way Phil does.

The Lakers won because of having 2 of the best players in the league, in spite of Kobe's and Shaq's ego battles, not because of them. Kobe has yet to learn how to channel his ego for the team game the way Jordan did during the Bulls title run.

I agree with most everything you said here. I still think, though, that Stack is mature enough at this stage of his career to accept the role given him and thrive in it. To wit, I can't imagine him being traded to LA next year (or signing as a free agent or whatever) and causing some problem with Kobe. These days Stack is like a mercenary, a paid gun. And he's proving to be very, very good at that role.

In short, I believe that Dirk needs Stack a whole hell of a lot more than Stack needs Dirk (if either needs each other at all).

dude1394 · 03-30-2007, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albigensian

I'm not hating on Dirk or anything, but I really think that Kobe, with his skills on offense and defense, can get the Mavs to the title and win it.
Kobe's game is multi-faceted; he can shoot from the perimeter or pump fake and drive to the basket. If fouled he hits his free throws with regularity. He can post, high post or low post, and if double, he can kick it to the open man or back it out to the 3 point line and hit 3. Of course Dirk can do all of these things but i think Kobe does them better.I also feel Kobe is a better late game player; we all know he's had great finishes like the playoffs last year. Dirk is great but I can't see him scoring 50 points 4 straight games, 81 points in a single game, or 63 in 3 quarters in a game in which he just about single handedly beat us. I know many people, especially on this forum, don't like Kobe but you have to respect his game. Just think about it before bombing on me.

There is a reason that teams that have players who score 50 points a game don't win, they are NOT a TEAM.

How many rebounds would kobe get? Although dirk isn't a traditional low-post player, he's an elbow post player (a lot like duncan when he's not low).

I'll take dirk over kobe any day of the week. Kobe with Odom should be a hell of a lot more competitive than they are, but not. No thanks.

mary · 03-31-2007, 12:10 AM

Dirk took 21 shots tonight and scored 30.

So far Kobe has taken 37 shots to score 40.

Which one is really making his team better?

chumdawg · 03-31-2007, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

Dirk took 21 shots tonight and scored 30.

So far Kobe has taken 37 shots to score 40.

Which one is really making his team better?

Without prejudice, the easy counter to that is to ask whose team is making who better.

fluid.forty.one · 03-31-2007, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Without prejudice, the easy counter to that is to ask whose team is making who better.

Dirk does a lot of his stuff from isolation.

chumdawg · 03-31-2007, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Dirk does a lot of his stuff from isolation.

Quite right. But, what options does Kobe have? Dirk can pass it away and still the team has a good chance to score.

fluid.forty.one · 03-31-2007, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Quite right. But, what options does Kobe have? Dirk can pass it away and still the team has a good chance to score.

I haven't been paying attention to the Lakers much since allstar break, but it seems like before the break they had two of the highest % 3-point shooters this year. Not a bad option to throw too.

And odom while he's healthy is pretty good.

And kobe just self destructed lol

jleefilled · 03-31-2007, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

But, what options does Kobe have?

The problem with this question, as I see it, is we may never know. Besides the first half of this season, has he ever deferred to his teammates? Will he ever? Lamar Odom went from burgeoning offensive talent to garbage man overnight when he joined the Lakers. Same thing kind of happened with Caron (?) Butler a couple of years back. I'm seeing a track record of teammates that have their growth stunted.

Edit: to get facts straight

dude1394 · 03-31-2007, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Without prejudice, the easy counter to that is to ask whose team is making who better.

Scoreboard says it's dirk.

Murphy3 · 03-31-2007, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Without prejudice, the easy counter to that is to ask whose team is making who better.

In all honesty, when Howard, Harris, Daniels, and even Jet(1 game during the second half stretch where Howard was out) were out at times last season, Dirk had no one else other than JET at times on his team yet the Mavs kept winning. Sure, Stack was there, but he was playing like a 12th man the second half of last season.

So what's my point? Well, for the most part, I think Dirk has shown that he's going to get his efficiently regardless of who else is around him. But when there's less around him, he stepped up his scoring while maintaining his efficiency and kept winning. The second half lf last year should have shown alot of people more about dirk than it obviously did. Dirk carried a team to a great record through all the injuries last year when the team probably didn't have any business winning at that high of a rate.

So again, what's my point? Dirk is Dirk. He's going to be an efficient scorer over the course of a season regardless of who's on his team. It just depends upon who's on his team to determine just how much he's going to need to score. He'll gladly take a back seat for stretches if there are other capable players... Or, he'll more than gladly take the reigns when that's needed.

you · 03-31-2007, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Dirk is Dirk. He's going to be an efficient scorer over the course of a season regardless of who's on his team. It just depends upon who's on his team to determine just how much he's going to need to score. He'll gladly take a back seat for stretches if there are other capable players... Or, he'll more than gladly take the reigns when that's needed.

Dirk lives in a town where the papers and radio talk shows would rather spend time talking about the Cowboys' new kicker or the perpetually-bottom-dwelling Rangers' new pitcher than to talk basketball. In another media market, Dirk's play would have been scrutenized and defined much better than the local media has been able to manage. The average fan would be able to look at Dirk and say "yeah, he carried a team and a franchise to its first trip to the Finals last season despite a myriad of team setbacks". It's just not as clear here. The local guys tend to take their cues from the national media in regards to what types of stories revolve around Dirk. That's why we get pummeled incessantly with the barely relevant and intentionally ignorant "Dirk collapses down the stretch" mishmash from the folks who havent seen Dirk play but maybe a couple of times this season.

Dirk is an historic player. By the way that the local media cowers away from writing unique, supportive observations, you would think that he was Ron Artest. Heck, I think that Artest gets more respect in the media.

There is a core group of Mav fans that see most of their games that can attest to what Dirk is, and I guess that its our job to help everyone to understand. Sports are so hype and highlight-driven that its hard to make a case for someone who isnt playing in a major market or throwing down monster dunks a few times a game.

I think that Dirk is one of those guys who will stand out when the next generation of basketball writers look back in retrospect.

fluid.forty.one · 03-31-2007, 12:15 AM

And the lakers are about to lose.

dude1394 · 03-31-2007, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

And the lakers are about to lose.

Not with tracie taking the elbow jumper.

fluid.forty.one · 03-31-2007, 12:15 AM

OH MY GOD KOBE

that was a nice shot

you · 03-31-2007, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

OH MY GOD KOBE

that was a nice shot

That looked like Dirk's three to tie the game in Memphis in game 3 last season.

fluid.forty.one · 03-31-2007, 12:35 AM

LOL good job kobe. foul tracy on the 3 and the travel.

Dirkadirkastan · 03-31-2007, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

LOL good job kobe. foul tracy on the 3 and the travel.

Tracie made a few screw-ups of his own in that game.

And yet... somehow... the only debate on the table is whether DIRK is a choker. Pisses me off more every day.

mary · 03-31-2007, 12:41 AM

Kobe didn't even try to run a real play at the end of the game....just chuck it up..end the game...go home..pad the scoring title a little more.

All in a day's work.

chumdawg · 03-31-2007, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

Kobe didn't even try to run a real play at the end of the game....just chuck it up..end the game...go home..pad the scoring title a little more.

All in a day's work.

Superstars don't need plays called for them! They just take the rock and score it!

G-Man · 03-31-2007, 12:51 AM

The reason a Dirk for Kobe swap is stupid is that 2's and 3's who can score 30 a night are pretty common in the NBA. TMaq, Gilbert, Starbury, heck Denver has 2 of them. That doesn't make the team a winner. Only a few teams can put that kind of offense at the power forward spot. Duncan has 3 rings, KG might, if his team's management was a little better. They are the only guys you could swap for Dirk and not hurt the team. Otherwise, you're swapping Kobe's 30 for Howard's 20 plus. Subtract Dirk's 20 and 10 and double-teams and its just a lose lose, before you even get to the character and leadership and team player issues.

chumdawg · 03-31-2007, 12:59 AM

Wasn't he having a great year before he went down for an extended period?

jleefilled · 03-31-2007, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Wasn't he having a great year before he went down for an extended period?

That's true, he was playing well earlier in the season. But, I just kind of wonder aloud how long "we're" going to say that Kobe doesn't have the benefit of a decent team around him.

dude1394 · 03-31-2007, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jleefilled

That's true, he was playing well earlier in the season. But, I just kind of wonder aloud how long "we're" going to say that Kobe doesn't have the benefit of a decent team around him.

My guess is about the rest of his career.

LRB · 03-31-2007, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

My guess is about the rest of his career.

It does seem that Kobe has orchestrated the lack of talent surrounding him. I can't see Kobe willingly sharing the spotlight with another player again, much less a team.

Tokey41 · 03-31-2007, 01:01 AM

Kobe for Dirk makes no sense for us... in any scenario unless we want to do a complete revamp of our roster which is also on the brink of sheer insanity. If your going to post these hypotheticals please try and make them less stupid.

How about if you replace Dirk with Duncan or KG... would the Mavs still win the title this year? With Kobe we don't because your team is incomplete and imbalanced. Replacing Dirk with another star four would make more sense (although I would still think it insane to even consider trading Dirk).

chumdawg · 03-31-2007, 01:06 AM

Gimme a break, LRB. Were Jordan's teams vulnerable to a "team focused approach?"

All Kobe needs is more talent around him, for his teams to be unstoppable. He is singularly the best talent in the game.

LRB · 03-31-2007, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Gimme a break, LRB. Were Jordan's teams vulnerable to a "team focused approach?"

All Kobe needs is more talent around him, for his teams to be unstoppable. He is singularly the best talent in the game.

Kobe might be the best highlight show in the game, but I don't see him being as good as Dirk or Duncan for team success. Hell, I might even be tempted to put Nash over him. Yeah of you put so much talent on Kobe's team that no other team can come close, then he can win. But just give him a slight talent edge to a San Antonio, and Kobe's going fishing.

And as for Jordan, I remember the double nickle he scored against the Knicks the year he made his 1st comeback. The Bulls won because Jordan drew the defense and made a terrific pass to Bill Wennington for the go ahead score. Jordan in his prime made his team much better than it's talent. The championship bulls were one of the most team focused teams of all time. Jordan learned to effectively channel his ego into supporting the team concept. And it should be noted that the Bulls won more championships by shots by players not named Jordan than with. Paxon and Kerr both his last second shots to win deciding games, even if Jordan's last second shot against Utah is the stuff of legends.

However, Jordan's Bulls were vunerable to team based approachs until he matured.

chumdawg · 03-31-2007, 01:23 AM

Kobe has as many rings as Duncan has, three more than Dirk has, and half as many as Jordan has. And he's probably yet to reach his prime. I wouldn't be counting him out just yet.

It's probably scary to think of what kind of player Kobe will be when he matures like Jordan did, and when he gets even a shadow of the surrounding talent Jordan had.

Dislike Kobe all you want, but the guy is the best basketball player on the planet.

LRB · 03-31-2007, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Kobe has as many rings as Duncan has, three more than Dirk has, and half as many as Jordan has. And he's probably yet to reach his prime. I wouldn't be counting him out just yet.

It's probably scary to think of what kind of player Kobe will be when he matures like Jordan did, and when he gets even a shadow of the surrounding talent Jordan had.

Dislike Kobe all you want, but the guy is the best basketball player on the planet.

And Robert Horry has tons more than Koby will every have. Kobe has yet to lead a team to a title. He followed along in Shaq's considerable wake. Kobe has yet to proof he has what it takes to win the big one as the top banana.

I seriously doubt that Kobe will ever mature. Jordan has the great experience of 3 years under Dean Smith to form a foundation. Kobe was an egocentric skip college and go straight to the NBA.

And I don't know if I'd put Kobe in the top 5 players on the planet. He certainly has talent, but he has a ton of baggage as well. I just pray that Kobe never plays for the Mavs, because the talent to baggage ratio just isn't big enough for me. Plus I just don't see Kobe having what it takes to build a championship team around.

Silk Smoov · 03-31-2007, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRB

And Robert Horry has tons more than Koby will every have. Kobe has yet to lead a team to a title. He followed along in Shaq's considerable wake. Kobe has yet to proof he has what it takes to win the big one as the top banana.

I seriously doubt that Kobe will ever mature. Jordan has the great experience of 3 years under Dean Smith to form a foundation. Kobe was an egocentric skip college and go straight to the NBA.

And I don't know if I'd put Kobe in the top 5 players on the planet. He certainly has talent, but he has a ton of baggage as well. I just pray that Kobe never plays for the Mavs, because the talent to baggage ratio just isn't big enough for me. Plus I just don't see Kobe having what it takes to build a championship team around.

If you dont put Kobe in the top 5 players in the planet, you may have just proved that some people here just watch Mavs basketball and dont have a clue about the rest of the NBA. So, I will just think that you were playing. Even the biggest Kobe haters here would not rate Kobe that low. Name 5 players right now that is better than Kobe? As of matter of fact name 3? Just to defend Kobe a bit...Shaq has never lead his team to a title w/o a Kobe type of player on his team. As of matter of fact, Shaq did not lead the Heat last season to a title. Give Kobe a Shaq type of player, and I would bet my house that Kobe would win a title and lead the team. Put Yao with Kobe, and you will have a automatic dynasty from Day 1...

LRB · 03-31-2007, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

If you dont put Kobe in the top 5 players in the planet, you may have just proved that some people here just watch Mavs basketball and dont have a clue about the rest of the NBA. So, I will just think that you were playing. Even the biggest Kobe haters here would not rate Kobe that low. Name 5 players right now that is better than Kobe? As of matter of fact name 3? Just to defend Kobe a bit...Shaq has never lead his team to a title w/o a Kobe type of player on his team. As of matter of fact, Shaq did not lead the Heat last season to a title. Give Kobe a Shaq type of player, and I would bet my house that Kobe would win a title and lead the team. Put Yao with Kobe, and you will have a automatic dynasty from Day 1...

I'd definitely take Dirk, Duncan, and LeBron over Kobe without much hesitation. I would probably end up putting him in the top 5 but I'd think much harder about it than choosing my top 3. Given a very strong supporting cast Kobe and Yao would have good chance at a tiltle, but it would depend on how good the rest of the team was and it Yao could stay healthy. I definitely wouldn't say it would be a sure fire dynasty. But Shaq just won a title with DShoulder, and I'd rate a heathly Yao over cryboy.

Again, I'll say that Kobe has lots of talent. When it comes to manufactoring a shot for himself, I don't know if anyone comes close to Kobe. Kobe is probably the best at getting 50 or more on any given night. But to build a team around to win a championship, I don't think that Kobe is near as great. I'd take kobe over AI, Mello, Garnett, Arenas, and most of the players in the league. I wouldn't take him over Dirk, Duncan, or LeBron. I'd think about taking him over Nash, TMac, Yao, or Dwight Howard.

My biggest concern with Kobe is not so much his talent as his attitude and his leadership. I'd place Nash head and shoulders over Kobe in attitude and leadership, but Kobe's much higher in talent IMO. I just don't see much hope for Kobe to change his attitude. Maybe after several years of either missing the playoffs or getting 1st round exits he might. Definitely he can win a championship if surrounded with enough talent. Of course there are scores of players who could do that. I think the level of talent that Kobe needs is smaller than most All-star players. Definitely top 10, probably top 5, but not in the top 3. Of course if he could get calls like Dshoulder did in the finals through the whole playoffs that might change. But I doubt even DWhistle gets anywhere close to that amount of overt favortism by the refs over any significant stretch in the playoffs agains.

purplefrog · 03-31-2007, 09:30 PM

Not just no, but hell no. Kobe could never play for Avery because he is a narcissistic ballhog. Avery requires his players to be unselfish and humble. So, the trade would have to be Dirk and Avery for Kobe and Phil Jackson. Not that's a trade that we can talk about...........

Silk Smoov · 04-02-2007, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRB

I'd definitely take Dirk, Duncan, and LeBron over Kobe without much hesitation. I would probably end up putting him in the top 5 but I'd think much harder about it than choosing my top 3. Given a very strong supporting cast Kobe and Yao would have good chance at a tiltle, but it would depend on how good the rest of the team was and it Yao could stay healthy. I definitely wouldn't say it would be a sure fire dynasty. But Shaq just won a title with DShoulder, and I'd rate a heathly Yao over cryboy.

Again, I'll say that Kobe has lots of talent. When it comes to manufactoring a shot for himself, I don't know if anyone comes close to Kobe. Kobe is probably the best at getting 50 or more on any given night. But to build a team around to win a championship, I don't think that Kobe is near as great. I'd take kobe over AI, Mello, Garnett, Arenas, and most of the players in the league. I wouldn't take him over Dirk, Duncan, or LeBron. I'd think about taking him over Nash, TMac, Yao, or Dwight Howard.

My biggest concern with Kobe is not so much his talent as his attitude and his leadership. I'd place Nash head and shoulders over Kobe in attitude and leadership, but Kobe's much higher in talent IMO. I just don't see much hope for Kobe to change his attitude. Maybe after several years of either missing the playoffs or getting 1st round exits he might. Definitely he can win a championship if surrounded with enough talent. Of course there are scores of players who could do that. I think the level of talent that Kobe needs is smaller than most All-star players. Definitely top 10, probably top 5, but not in the top 3. Of course if he could get calls like Dshoulder did in the finals through the whole playoffs that might change. But I doubt even DWhistle gets anywhere close to that amount of overt favortism by the refs over any significant stretch in the playoffs agains.

See, I can respect your post because you told me why you dont consider him because of his attitude, and that is what you include in rating players. I can see why you say that, but all in all the fact remains that there is no better player than Kobe in the league. Seriously, we are not talking about developing teams around him, we are just talking personal best player in the NBA.

Just to be clear, if I was just building around a team, then Nash would NEVER be on my list to build around him because he needs other stars to compete on the highest level. Yes, he makes average players better. If you put a bunch of average players around Nash, all you would have is a team full of role players and that will not go a long way in the NBA.

I would rate Dirk alot higher than Nash, because of the factors that Dirk brings to ANY team. I would even rate Wade NOT so high, because I feel he needs a dominant center to bring his team to the next level.

So, if I factor in building a team with great role players around the superstar I would rank in this order.

1. Kobe
2. Duncan
3. Dirk
4. Wade
5. Yao
6. Nash

When I rate the best player, I factor in who is the best "Go to Guy", who hits the big shots, who would you want for Game 7, who is unguardable no matter what, who will play tough defense, who has the highest basketball "IQ", who has won titles, who hits pressure shots/free throws. All these things to me is what makes the best player according to "Who is the best player. Now, sometimes this does not mean "MVP", because to me, that is when you consider who makes his teammates better, and include attitude. This to me, is why I feel Kobe has never won "MVP". I would not give him the MVP as well in any of his years. But, I do think he is moving in the right direction.

Silk Smoov · 03-31-2007, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Kobe has as many rings as Duncan has, three more than Dirk has, and half as many as Jordan has. And he's probably yet to reach his prime. I wouldn't be counting him out just yet.

It's probably scary to think of what kind of player Kobe will be when he matures like Jordan did, and when he gets even a shadow of the surrounding talent Jordan had.

Dislike Kobe all you want, but the guy is the best basketball player on the planet.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to chumdawg again.

Thespiralgoeson · 03-31-2007, 01:41 AM

I'm gonna have to agree with Chum here. I hate Kobe's guts, but that guy is the best player in the NBA.