Mavs don't need to change much to still be the team to beat in '07-'08 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Big Shot Rob · 07-18-2007, 01:41 PM

I've seen a few threads here where Mav fans are disappointed because the team doesn't seem to be pulling the trigger on major trades.

Although I love the Spurs--I have to admit--I think the Mavs overall were the better team last year.

GSW looks like it will be a fairly different team next year with some of their major players being signed away by other teams.

When you're the best team--you don't need to be doing much more than merely tinkering here and there, which seems to be the plan the Mavs are doing this summer.

Actually, I think this is a sign of maturity and strength. Why make a big splash when your team won the most games last year?

Spurs are in a slightly different boat in that Bruce Bowen seems to be getting old enough to be the father of some of the players he is opposing. Pop seems to be trying to get his successor in place this summer, which is the best way that I can understand the Scola trade.

BGMaverick9 · 07-18-2007, 02:22 PM

Thanks, BSR. Congrats again to your Spurs.

It's a tricky spot. It is either the mature/wise thing to do to stand pat or it's going to be questioned for a very long time. It's just a matter of how this team does at the end of the season. People are hungry for a title, it's what the people want.

How would you rate the Spurs offseason, with the re-ups with people and that trade? What are you thinking the team still needs to do or is lacking in, if anything?

Dortmund · 07-18-2007, 02:38 PM

boring hell.

Dirk Diggler · 07-18-2007, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Shot Rob

I've seen a few threads here where Mav fans are disappointed because the team doesn't seem to be pulling the trigger on major trades.

Although I love the Spurs--I have to admit--I think the Mavs overall were the better team last year.

GSW looks like it will be a fairly different team next year with some of their major players being signed away by other teams.

When you're the best team--you don't need to be doing much more than merely tinkering here and there, which seems to be the plan the Mavs are doing this summer.

Actually, I think this is a sign of maturity and strength. Why make a big splash when your team won the most games last year?

Spurs are in a slightly different boat in that Bruce Bowen seems to be getting old enough to be the father of some of the players he is opposing. Pop seems to be trying to get his successor in place this summer, which is the best way that I can understand the Scola trade.

nothing against you BSR but it just feels kindof creepy to be getting so much love all the time from a Spurs fan.

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 07-18-2007, 03:37 PM

I think BSR has secretly became tired of the Spurs and the Mavs are his new favorite team.

Dirkadirkastan · 07-18-2007, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

I think BSR has secretly became tired of the Spurs and the Mavs are his new favorite team.

No matter how you slice it, no championship is as sweet as the first. That's because up until then you wonder whether or not you'll EVER win a title. That doesn't mean the second championship is gravy, because the novelty is still there. It's just as exhilarating, the only difference is there wasn't that fear factor as there was before the first one. The third one gives you your first sense of dominance, and makes you wonder if you qualify as a dynasty. So by the fourth one, you feel almost a sense of entitlement to the championship, and winning it all just gives a sigh of relief more than anything.

My dad is a Yankees fan, and although his team was long past their first championship, as of 1996 they hadn't won since 1978. The night they pulled off the upset (the Braves were heavily favored in '96, remember? They were down 0-2 heading INTO Atlanta for three games), he was jumping around and he got all emotional. For the second one in '98, he still got pretty giddy, but by the fourth in 2000 he wasn't even smiling. He just pumped his fists as if he simply expected to see nothing short of domination.

The Spurs achieved as much as they possibly could have this season. It just wasn't as valuable as it would have been to some other team with no prior championships.

I don't care how many titles the Spurs win. I just want to see Dirk hoist the trophy once. Not that I wouldn't appreciate more of course...

RonMexico · 07-18-2007, 08:13 PM

I agree with the thread but I also believe the problem for Mav fan is that they won't have another 67 win season. No one can predict what happens but it's very rare to improve upon a year like they had. All they can do is try to matchup better with Golden State because outside of San Antonio I don't see anyone taking them out.

However, with another missed opportunity teams have improved around them. We'll see but they appeared so far and away better than the rest and you saw what happened.

dude1394 · 07-18-2007, 08:17 PM

67 win season was interesting but timed incorrectly. Avery has to tone down his balls to the wall everynight approch. Unless you are just dominant, you have to have something in the tank for the playoffs.

rabbitproof · 07-18-2007, 09:18 PM

Yeah, this is just weird. Either BSR is trying to breed complacency or is a closet Mavs fan.

Either way, come clean, dude!

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 07-18-2007, 10:32 PM

I sure hope they don't win 67 games next year. I think it's been since 2003 that the team with the best record in the regular season has went on to win the championship in ANY SPORT including NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL. It's better to be under the radar slightly.

Dirkadirkastan · 07-18-2007, 10:43 PM

NUMBER ONE SEED DO IT AGAIN

nashtymavsfan13 · 07-18-2007, 11:05 PM

The team that wins the title is the team to beat the next season.

And1 · 07-19-2007, 01:05 AM

Dallas will still be a powerhouse next year after making little to no changes this year....book it.

The playoffs......who knows.......depends on matchups.....this past season was a matchup nightmare for them.

mkat · 07-19-2007, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nashtymavsfan13

The team that wins the title is the team to beat the next season.

the team that wins the title is the team that won the championship.

Knickfan · 07-19-2007, 10:08 AM

Actually BSR, I kind of disagree with you on the point that the Mavs were the better team. I don't think the Mavs were better than the Spurs in the SECOND half of the season BUT I would prefer having the Mavs roster over the Spurs. Now that's somewhat contradictory but I'm saying in terms of long term. The Spurs HAD to win now because they're window is closing. Other than Parker, they're starters are getting OLD! They may have ONE more in them but that's it. Truly with Dirk as your franchise player, the Mavs have atleast another quality five years out of Dirk and maybe another three or four years after that where he'll still be causing problems for the opposition. Really other than Stackhouse and George the team isn't that old. You have young players and players that you could move around IF need be. So although I don't think the Mavs were the better team all of last year (eventhough they had the best record) I would prefer their players ANYDAY over the Spurs.

DelNegro · 07-19-2007, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knickfan

Actually BSR, I kind of disagree with you on the point that the Mavs were the better team. I don't think the Mavs were better than the Spurs in the SECOND half of the season BUT I would prefer having the Mavs roster over the Spurs. Now that's somewhat contradictory but I'm saying in terms of long term. The Spurs HAD to win now because they're window is closing. Other than Parker, they're starters are getting OLD! They may have ONE more in them but that's it. Truly with Dirk as your franchise player, the Mavs have atleast another quality five years out of Dirk and maybe another three or four years after that where he'll still be causing problems for the opposition. Really other than Stackhouse and George the team isn't that old. You have young players and players that you could move around IF need be. So although I don't think the Mavs were the better team all of last year (eventhough they had the best record) I would prefer their players ANYDAY over the Spurs.

Dirk's only two years younger than Duncan is, so if Dirk's got 9 useful years left shouldn't Duncan have about 7? Duncan, Ginobili and Parker are only going to be 31, 30 and 25 to start next season and while the supporting cast is certainly old, they're all on expiring contracts. Barry, Bowen, Horry, Elson and Finley are all in their last year. There's actually a chance the Spurs might have cap room next year. The Spurs have the flexibility to retool their roster quickly whereas the Mavs don't.

The Mavs do have less old guys to worry about right now, but they're also locked in to those guys long term. At big money too. Terry and Damp are each going to be making $10+ mil a year well into their mid 30s. Stackhouse will be 36 by the time he plays out his deal. Toss in Howard, who while isn't in danger of getting old anytime soon does have a huge contract that when combined Dirk, Terry and Dampier is going to make it extremely difficult to fill out the rest of the roster without paying huge luxury tax dollars several years into the future. The Mavs have about $50 mil a year committed to just those 4 guys thru 2010-2011. That's not even counting Devin Harris who needs a contract extension and Diop who comes up for free agency next year.

Don't get me wrong, the Mavs are still on the exclusive list of teams who can win a title, but looking long term I disagree that their picture is that much rosier than the Spurs. The Spurs can retool, the Mavs can't.

dalmations202 · 07-19-2007, 12:19 PM

The Spurs will be elite until TD's big decline, just like any team Shaq was on was elite until his big decline.

The surrounding cast can be manipulated every year with a trade here or there, or paying the LT for a player.

The Spurs will not be dominant though, just like they haven't been. Good yes, dominant no. Lucky yes, have a good system yes, have great coaching yes. I know some will call them dominant because they have won the 4 titles, but they have not had a team that every team in the league fears -- like the Jordan Bulls, or the Showtime Lakers, or the Bird Celtics, or even the Shaq Lakers. There are teams every year that "can" beat the Spurs -- they just somehow seem to either bypass those teams, or an injury happens to that team in the playoffs or some other situation. I like the Spurs, and they are a very good team, but IMO, they are far from dominant.

With that said, as long as SA has Pop and TD, then they can fill in any spot. If Tony Parker for whatever reason couldn't play, then they would just draft a very good PG or find one from a foreign team or some such, and the next year be just as good. If Ginobili were to go back to Brazil, they would bring Tiago in and revamp around him.
All the pieces are changeable, as long as you can dominate inside which is what Duncan does for you. He gets the others on the team, open looks.

I am not saying that just anyone would work, but any couple of better than average basketball players with TD can win the title any given year "if" things fall right, and they keep a modest amount of luck with them.

Any other team that could develop a dominant team from the inside out, could beat them though. They would have to dominate the frontcourt though to offset TD on the other end because he is too efficient and gets too many easy baskets.

Just my opinion of course.

SA isn't in bad shape, but they need to change.
Dallas is in great shape, but they need to make one more correct move to be dominant instead of just good. Dallas could have ended up the lucky one this year and won it all, but I still don't think Dallas -even with 67 wins - was a dominant team.

LonghornDub · 07-19-2007, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DelNegro

Dirk's only two years younger than Duncan is, so if Dirk's got 9 useful years left shouldn't Duncan have about 7?

This might be a valid comparison if they played the same position effectively on the floor (even when they are both at the 4 they don't truly play the same position). Duncan takes 3x the physical abuse that Dirk does. His body will wear down a lot more quickly.

DelNegro · 07-19-2007, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

This might be a valid comparison if they played the same position effectively on the floor (even when they are both at the 4 they don't truly play the same position). Duncan takes 3x the physical abuse that Dirk does. His body will wear down a lot more quickly.

True. Duncan's also got a lot more post-season mileage on him. But to play devils advocate, Dirk's game is more dependent on athleticism than Duncan's is and it's the athleticism that goes with age. Dirk is so dangerous because in addition to that killer outside shot he's got the quickness to get by bigs that you try to put on him. As he slows down teams will be able to defend him more easily by just putting a big on him that he can't just shoot over, nor has the quickness to get around. Post players don't have that problem. That's why guys like Malone, Kareem, Hakeem and Ewing were still able to put up decent numbers well into their late 30s.

mavsfan1000 · 07-19-2007, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DelNegro

True. Duncan's also got a lot more post-season mileage on him. But to play devils advocate, Dirk's game is more dependent on athleticism than Duncan's is and it's the athleticism that goes with age. Dirk is so dangerous because in addition to that killer outside shot he's got the quickness to get by bigs that you try to put on him. As he slows down teams will be able to defend him more easily by just putting a big on him that he can't just shoot over, nor has the quickness to get around. Post players don't have that problem. That's why guys like Malone, Kareem, Hakeem and Ewing were still able to put up decent numbers well into their late 30s.

I disagree. Dirk is not more athletic than Duncan. He just has better shooting ability and therefore people have to guard him closer. This allows for him to get by his defender more often. Duncan is a power player and goes inside but doesn't shoot as well from longer ranges. Dirk still has his shot and his height advantage so I think he can last awhile.

Knickfan · 07-19-2007, 01:40 PM

Quote:

This might be a valid comparison if they played the same position effectively on the floor (even when they are both at the 4 they don't truly play the same position). Duncan takes 3x the physical abuse that Dirk does. His body will wear down a lot more quickly.

You stole my thunder prodigy, that's exactly what I was going to say. Ginobli is the same thing. He gets contact so much his body is even breaking down already and he will NOT be as active as he is now in a few years.

I know one of the advantages to Dirk's game is that he has the ABILITY to go by you but realistically how often does Dirk do that? He can and the fact that he CAN will always be a threat but the reality is Dirk is just a DEADLY shooter and being 7'0 tall you can't put someone as big on him because regardless of how old Dirk gets, he has the ability to put it on the floor. There is NO big man in the game who has the quickness to keep up with that and there won't be for a while. The ONLY one that might be quick enough is Oden and if Oden is who I have to worry about stopping Dirk, I'll take my chances with Dirk.

Yes the Mavs do have large salaries but really there are only two salaries they have to worry about and that's Damp and Terry and after next year (neither of which I personally care for) but they're salaries won't be so terrible that they will be untradeable.

My point is Dallas is NOT in such a terrible situation. Like I said, the Spurs still have a run in them but I think they have ONE more at the most with this nucleus. Now if they rebuild, that's a different story but they're NOT going to overhaul that team and be in contentions the very next year. As great as TD is, I just can't see that happening.

DelNegro · 07-19-2007, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

I disagree. Dirk is not more athletic than Duncan. He just has better shooting ability and therefore people have to guard him closer. This allows for him to get by his defender more often. Duncan is a power player and goes inside but doesn't shoot as well from longer ranges. Dirk still has his shot and his height advantage so I think he can last awhile.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to put either guy out to pasture any time soon. Both have several seasons of the high caliber basketball we're accustomed to ahead of them. I just think that if you take Duncan at 35 and Dirk at 35 that Duncan's game would allow him to have more useful years beyond that than Dirk's.

bobatundi · 07-19-2007, 01:58 PM

If we're talking about how much tread Dirk & Duncan each have left on the tires, don't forget that Dirk was playing a full NBA schedule at what, 19 years old, while Duncan played a much less demanding college schedule for four years.

DelNegro · 07-19-2007, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knickfan

You stole my thunder prodigy, that's exactly what I was going to say. Ginobli is the same thing. He gets contact so much his body is even breaking down already and he will NOT be as active as he is now in a few years.

I know one of the advantages to Dirk's game is that he has the ABILITY to go by you but realistically how often does Dirk do that? He can and the fact that he CAN will always be a threat but the reality is Dirk is just a DEADLY shooter and being 7'0 tall you can't put someone as big on him because regardless of how old Dirk gets, he has the ability to put it on the floor. There is NO big man in the game who has the quickness to keep up with that and there won't be for a while. The ONLY one that might be quick enough is Oden and if Oden is who I have to worry about stopping Dirk, I'll take my chances with Dirk.

Yes the Mavs do have large salaries but really there are only two salaries they have to worry about and that's Damp and Terry and after next year (neither of which I personally care for) but they're salaries won't be so terrible that they will be untradeable.

My point is Dallas is NOT in such a terrible situation. Like I said, the Spurs still have a run in them but I think they have ONE more at the most with this nucleus. Now if they rebuild, that's a different story but they're NOT going to overhaul that team and be in contentions the very next year. As great as TD is, I just can't see that happening.

You're right about Ginobili. He is not the type of player who will be able to age gracefully. His contract ends after the 09-10 season and when that time comes I think he'll pretty much be at the point where he's fixing to hit a really steep decline. He might be able to squeeze out a couple more years after that in a greatly dimished capacity, but for all practical purposes the Spurs will need to replace what he gives them within the next 5 years.

As for Dirk, yeah he's got that quickness now, but once that quickness starts to go more and more bigs will be able to keep up with him. That diminishes that threat of him driving by them and allows bigs to crowd his shot. Suddenly Dirk is taking more contested shots and that shooting percentage drops. We're still several years away from that occuring though, but that's exactly how age is going to catch up to Dirk.

Knickfan · 07-19-2007, 03:47 PM

Even as Dirk's quickness starts declining, he'll still have a slight advantage over most. There will be some who will be as quick or quicker but we're talking about one or two people at the most (Stoudemire is the only that comes to mind). That doesn't really worry me too much and the reality of it is, as Dirk gets older, he's going to become MORE of a perimeter player and NO ONE will take their seven footer away from the basket. So Dirk will more than likely always have a small forward guarding him and at seven feet, Dirk will always be able to get his shot off.

Sidekick · 07-21-2007, 08:18 AM

Until the Mavs get a big man that is willing to post down low, they will never win a championship. Dirk has proven over the last two years that he is not will to do that. He just want to shoot the 3 point shots. The Mav will do well again in the regular season and win 55 plus game but unless the get that big guy down low, it will be the same story when playoff comes around. Go get Chris Weber and maybe we'll have a chance at wining the a title.

Underdog · 07-21-2007, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidekick

Until the Mavs get a big man that is willing to post down low, they will never win a championship. Dirk has proven over the last two years that he is not will to do that. He just want to shoot the 3 point shots. The Mav will do well again in the regular season and win 55 plus game but unless the get that big guy down low, it will be the same story when playoff comes around. Go get Chris Weber and maybe we'll have a chance at wining the a title.

Sure, everyone knows that it was our lack of a low post game that lost against Miami in the Finals...

dude1394 · 07-21-2007, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Sure, everyone knows that it was our lack of a low post game that lost against Miami in the Finals...

Kinda sad isn't it.

alby · 07-21-2007, 10:33 AM

Pop and the Spurs understand that winning a championship means winning in the playoffs, not the regular season.

dude1394 · 07-21-2007, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidekick

Until the Mavs get a big man that is willing to post down low, they will never win a championship. Dirk has proven over the last two years that he is not will to do that. He just want to shoot the 3 point shots. The Mav will do well again in the regular season and win 55 plus game but unless the get that big guy down low, it will be the same story when playoff comes around. Go get Chris Weber and maybe we'll have a chance at wining the a title.

Chris Weber? Are you kidding me?

alby · 07-21-2007, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidekick

Until the Mavs get a big man that is willing to post down low, they will never win a championship. Dirk has proven over the last two years that he is not will to do that. He just want to shoot the 3 point shots. The Mav will do well again in the regular season and win 55 plus game but unless the get that big guy down low, it will be the same story when playoff comes around. Go get Chris Weber and maybe we'll have a chance at wining the a title.

In the last two years, Dirk just wants to shoot 3 point shots? Are you kidding me?

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 07-21-2007, 03:40 PM

Sidekick kinda got destroyed by everyone there.

Oh well lololol.

seelenjaeger · 07-21-2007, 06:48 PM

It´s great to be the team "to beat", but it sucks if you get beaten ...

I don´t really see why we keep standing still. I mean, sure, we´re not actively trading away players and picks like Phoenix does (btw - that´s a downside of the Nash signing, it´s the price they were willing to pay for having him on board, and it remains to be seen if it´s worth it long term), but I´d kinda see us finally adding SOMETHING that fits our needs.

I hope we don´t do another Doug Christie disaster move by trying to get Eddie Jones or some other semi-crippled old guy, but I do think that it´s a bad bad sign that Dallas seems to be "in the mix" for pretty much everyone, but also losing out on everyone.

Dallas DOES need to add something to the mix, and the recent additions are ... not bolstering our position in the sharktank western conference.

butcher · 07-21-2007, 08:58 PM

Just hope that Nellie doesn't screw us up again.
Cuban should pay him just to NOT coach in the NBA.

alby · 07-21-2007, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seelenjaeger

It´s great to be the team "to beat", but it sucks if you get beaten ...

I don´t really see why we keep standing still. I mean, sure, we´re not actively trading away players and picks like Phoenix does (btw - that´s a downside of the Nash signing, it´s the price they were willing to pay for having him on board, and it remains to be seen if it´s worth it long term), but I´d kinda see us finally adding SOMETHING that fits our needs.

I hope we don´t do another Doug Christie disaster move by trying to get Eddie Jones or some other semi-crippled old guy, but I do think that it´s a bad bad sign that Dallas seems to be "in the mix" for pretty much everyone, but also losing out on everyone.

Dallas DOES need to add something to the mix, and the recent additions are ... not bolstering our position in the sharktank western conference.

good call.

And1 · 07-21-2007, 11:19 PM

Dallas won a ton of close games last yr. If they stay the same in talent and lose 10-12 more games......they still are right up there. In the playoffs, depends on matchups

antoinewalker · 07-22-2007, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidekick

Until the Mavs get a big man that is willing to post down low, they will never win a championship. Dirk has proven over the last two years that he is not will to do that. He just want to shoot the 3 point shots. The Mav will do well again in the regular season and win 55 plus game but unless the get that big guy down low, it will be the same story when playoff comes around. Go get Chris Weber and maybe we'll have a chance at wining the a title.

you don't sound very knowledgeable about basketball.

Flacolaco · 07-22-2007, 01:21 AM

Just breaking this streak of 2 trolls in a row posting on d-m.com

dude1394 · 07-22-2007, 10:17 AM

To be honest I haven't seen many deals that would make sense for dallas to do. Only the Grant Hill one looks even somewhat doable. Of course the mavs get linked to every player out there by the lazy media.

Gerald Wallace - No way unless you give up josh to get him.
Rashard Lewis - You've got to be kidding, that one's insane.

Who else really. You've got to be reasonble about it. To get a starter we'd have to give up a starter and I haven't seen many that were interesting enough to give up (jet for example) for.

seelenjaeger · 07-22-2007, 03:57 PM

Just to call out something ... I´m rather sure we could have gotten ... let´s say ... Kurt Thomas in some kind of a Sign and Trade scenario, allowing Phoenix to stay slightly below the Tax Payroll and enabling them to keep their first round picks. Like ... Re-Signing Croshere to a 3 yr deal first year guaranteed and then trading him away ... not sure that´s what we need though.

I´m with ya on Grant Hill.

We might have had a shot on getting our hands on Steve Francis actually, but we might have had to offer the Clips something BEFORE they cut him (S&T options again, along with packaging a guy like ... BUckner? or such), but that would have meant we woud have had to swallow his contract, but it could have been done really.

I just don´t see us really WILLING to change something. And that gives me kind of a headache. We´re just pretending to be players on the market.