Dream Team to start? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

ReDIRKulous · 12-07-2003, 01:23 AM

A lot of people might finally be getting their wish....

DMN article - excerpt at the bottom

Quote:

The mystery of Dirk Nowitzki's return continues. He was running on the treadmill Saturday, although coach Don Nelson said he was having trouble doing so. Nowitzki may practice Monday or Tuesday but his status is still questionable for Wednesday against the Clippers in LA. ... When Nowitzki does return, Nelson said he's considering the idea of starting his Big Five of Nowitzki, Michael Finley, Steve Nash, Antawn Jamison and Antoine Walker.

I wonder if this is because Nellie feels Jho is a good enough player to be our sixth man?

Mavs Rule · 12-07-2003, 01:51 AM

Wow, I hope he isn't just teasing us. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img] Why not debut our big five as starters against the lakers! A change in starters as well as mindset needs to jumpstart us in Staples Arena. I know its a pipe dream, but wouldn't it be awesome to finally see the END of the continuous drought there? If we won with the big five starting, it might secure this lineup to start for the rest of the season! Its Christmas season, hope is in the air.

ReDIRKulous · 12-07-2003, 01:56 AM

That is exactly what I was thinking Mavs rule. I think he wants them to play one game before the LAkers at least, though.

People think Nellie is just this moron and don't believe there is a reason for the things he does. I don't claim to understand all of it myself... but I can definately see the value of waiting before you put such a potent lineup on the floor together. I think Nellie wanted to slowly mix these guys as they build steam through the season. I wopuldn't be surpirsed if he knew he was going to do this before we even played our first game.

MavsFanFinley · 12-07-2003, 01:57 AM

I hope Nelson isn't teasing about starting the big 5. We have a solid bench that Nelson can use if one of the starters is stinking it up or is in foul trouble. If he's so set against starting Jamison, he needs to be starting Howard. It's simple as that.

Right now, I'm more curious about whether or not Cuban was fined 100,000 or not.

ReDIRKulous · 12-07-2003, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Right now, I'm more curious about whether or not Cuban was fined 100,000 or not.

Why? If anything they fined him just because they grudgingly had to suspend Malone.

MavsFanFinley · 12-07-2003, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Why? If anything they fined him just because they grudgingly had to suspend Malone.

What? The article reports 3 sources saying Cuban was fined for his comments about the refs after the Memphis game. It had nothing to do with Malone and his cheap shot.

I'm curious because it's not like Cuban to deny such a thing. He would find a way to turn it into a positive somehow.

ReDIRKulous · 12-07-2003, 02:10 AM

Ahhh... I missed that it was for Memphis.

Edit: wait... it doesn't say when he was fined for the Memphis game. I wouldn't be surprised if they just used that as an excuse because they had to suspend Malone because Cubes made such a stink about it.

jayC · 12-07-2003, 02:42 AM

Jamison has struggled to start off the bench. You put your best players in a situation to win. Is it me or does bradley and fortson excel in a backup role. Howard is an energy machine and is the perfect backup, while Delk and Best round out the second team. This team needs a jump start especially since with the exception of tonight a struggle scoring.

Jibba Jabba:
Josh Howard has been a pleasant suprise over the last 4 games hes averaging 8.5 boards a game. Who says nellie doesn't like to play rookies it seems as if he likes Howard as Well as Daniels. While his shot selection has been questionable his energy is very valuable to this teams success. Walker to me has been everything as advertising and more. His various post moves make him a very solid post player, and his passing ability adds a new dimension to the team. Hes almost a poor man's Dirk except with a better post game.

The Lakers are awesome but considering we missed 8 layups, I can't feel that bad. Especially since we were minus Dirk. Its not how you start its how you finish.

ReDIRKulous · 12-07-2003, 02:48 AM

Quote:

While his shot selection has been questionable his energy is very valuable to this teams success.

He has taken some bad shots... but I bet Nellie loves how confident he looks taking those shots, he is perfect for this team. He sure doesn't play anything like your average rookie.

EricaLubarsky · 12-07-2003, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Mavs Rule
Wow, I hope he isn't just teasing us. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img] Why not debut our big five as starters against the lakers! A change in starters as well as mindset needs to jumpstart us in Staples Arena. I know its a pipe dream, but wouldn't it be awesome to finally see the END of the continuous drought there? If we won with the big five starting, it might secure this lineup to start for the rest of the season! Its Christmas season, hope is in the air.

I dont think the starting five is inherently going to blow the Lakers away. Woo hoo we'll blow them away with raw talent...[img]i/expressions/moon.gif[/img]

In the long run I want the best players starting which is the big five, but Dirk does not have the ankles to be banging down low. What I really want to see is a lineup used throughout the year. Someone asked why Sacramento was blowing teams out by 30 and we were just winning by 5, and the answer is simple- Sacramento has their game down perfectly- their players have played together for years and since they only have the one new player in their starting lineup he just had to learn THEIR system. Once we get everyone on the same page and healthy, we need to get a pattern drilled into our players so we work together effortlessly and so we can go seemlessly between Nash and Best, etc.

MightyToine · 12-07-2003, 03:57 AM

Oh so now Walker's Nickname is................WALK?

Quote:

Mavericks Forward Antawn Jamison
On the team scoring 64 points in the paint tonight:
Once you look at it, Walk (Antoine Walker) did a tremendous job getting some points on the inside for us. The rook, Josh Howard, did a tremendous job and that’ s really our strength right now. Especially when Dirk (Nowitzki) gets back, it really opens it up so it’s good now to be scoring on the inside because it gives guys like Dirk when he comes back, Mike (Finley) and definitely Steve (Nash) the opportunities to play their style of basketball, which is penetrating and then knocking down three’s.

http://www.nba.com/mavericks/news/po...ando_dec5.html

Oookaayyy..... [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

"Walk" doesn't have the same ring to it that TOINE does. You need to find a better nickname, Antawn...

dude1394 · 12-07-2003, 12:43 PM

Well I for one have been calling him "walk" at the arena. Antoine is too hard and toine doesn't roll off the tongue either. Jamison is either Jamison or aj. Go figure. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

sike · 12-07-2003, 01:09 PM

I am all for the starting of the big five!....but would also like to see more bradley!..in a reserve role, but still in a bigger role than he has served this season...Is he healthy yet?

Simon2 · 12-07-2003, 05:31 PM

This is exactly how Nellie puts his players in situations to fail. This is the first time he will start the Big 5 at the beginning of a game and who does it do it against? Just the toughest opponent there is. If the Mavs fall behind which they most likely will because the Big 5 need to gel, Dirk is just coming back and its the Lakers. The Big 5 will fall behind and Nellie will start pulling starters and putting in crazy lineups for crazy matchups again. Its as if he's doing it on purpose to make the Big 5 fail.

ReDIRKulous · 12-07-2003, 06:02 PM

Quote:

This is exactly how Nellie puts his players in situations to fail. This is the first time he will start the Big 5 at the beginning of a game and who does it do it against? Just the toughest opponent there is. If the Mavs fall behind which they most likely will because the Big 5 need to gel, Dirk is just coming back and its the Lakers. The Big 5 will fall behind and Nellie will start pulling starters and putting in crazy lineups for crazy matchups again. Its as if he's doing it on purpose to make the Big 5 fail.

It isn't as if the big 5 hasn't played together before. They may not have started together... but that is the beauty of doing it in the most difficult situation... at Staples center. You don't use a nuke to exterminate a bees nest.

This is one area that I really question the LAkers. Phil has been using his big guns liberally from day one. Are they going to peter out as the season goes on? I think Nellie is building up steam as the season goes along and hopefulyl we peak during the playoffs. I think the Lakers are doing the exact opposite. Cpnsidering their lack of depth it is even more dangerous.

What you consider being put into a position to fail I see as Nellie challenging his team. Do you let your team live on talent? Or do you try to force them to get better at their weak areas by putting in stops?

I also see putting the MAvs big five together too quickly as dangerous because we have so many players accustomed to getting a ton of shots.

Simon2 · 12-07-2003, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: ReDIRKulous

Quote:

This is exactly how Nellie puts his players in situations to fail. This is the first time he will start the Big 5 at the beginning of a game and who does it do it against? Just the toughest opponent there is. If the Mavs fall behind which they most likely will because the Big 5 need to gel, Dirk is just coming back and its the Lakers. The Big 5 will fall behind and Nellie will start pulling starters and putting in crazy lineups for crazy matchups again. Its as if he's doing it on purpose to make the Big 5 fail.

It isn't as if the big 5 hasn't played together before. They may not have started together... but that is the beauty of doing it in the most difficult situation... at Staples center. You don't use a nuke to exterminate a bees nest.

This is one area that I really question the LAkers. Phil has been using his big guns liberally from day one. Are they going to peter out as the season goes on? I think Nellie is building up steam as the season goes along and hopefulyl we peak during the playoffs. I think the Lakers are doing the exact opposite. Cpnsidering their lack of depth it is even more dangerous.

What you consider being put into a position to fail I see as Nellie challenging his team. Do you let your team live on talent? Or do you try to force them to get better at their weak areas by putting in stops?

I also see putting the MAvs big five together too quickly as dangerous because we have so many players accustomed to getting a ton of shots.

If it doesn't work this time, I don't want to it to become an excuse that it won't work. Basically, this is another experiment. Nellie is setting it up to fail because of the competition. I hope it works. I really do.

LoveMyMavs14 · 12-07-2003, 06:52 PM

I heard Walker already said "we can NOT lose to them a third time, we just CAN'T". I hope he's serious about that, and I hope it rubs off on the rest of the Big 5. What they need more than anything is the confidence to think...or KNOW...that they can win.

I like that he is starting these 5, and I hope it's successful.

(Thing is, in a win vs. the Lakers, I want nothing in between....I want them to be destroyed by the Mavs offense, or killed by a heartbreaking buzzerbeater.)

Simon2 · 12-07-2003, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: LoveMyMavs14
I heard Walker already said "we can NOT lose to them a third time, we just CAN'T". I hope he's serious about that, and I hope it rubs off on the rest of the Big 5. What they need more than anything is the confidence to think...or KNOW...that they can win.

I like that he is starting these 5, and I hope it's successful.

(Thing is, in a win vs. the Lakers, I want nothing in between....I want them to be destroyed by the Mavs offense, or killed by a heartbreaking buzzerbeater.)

I hope he's right. It would be nice to beat LA in LA.

Chiwas · 12-07-2003, 07:16 PM

Great Idea. The Big Five has to play the most minutes together and starting is the best way to start it.

In any way, Jamison, Walker, Howard, and Delk, changed the "role" of Dirk. Then now where is he more needed? In the 5. Not his best position but with the new adquisitions there is no better option for him and for the team.

Dirk in the 3 and Fortson/Bradley/Najera in the 5 is not better than Jamison in the 3 and Dirk in the 5. Not even remotely close.

I bet that Jamison will play even better being starter.

My only hope is that Nelson keeps that starting lineup long enough to let them jell and grow and gets himself convinced that it is the best decision.

ReDIRKulous · 12-07-2003, 07:31 PM

Just remember... if Nellie does play the big five together for a couple games and then quits and brings Jamison or Finley or Walker off the bench it isn't necessarily because he doesn't still believe they are the best lineup. He may have other motives.

Simon2 · 12-07-2003, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: ReDIRKulous
Just remember... if Nellie does play the big five together for a couple games and then quits and brings Jamison or Finley or Walker off the bench it isn't necessarily because he doesn't still believe they are the best lineup. He may have other motives.

Yes. He may want to keep the Mavs down so he can still say that they are the underdogs.

ReDIRKulous · 12-07-2003, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Yes. He may want to keep the Mavs down so he can still say that they are the underdogs.

You don't think the Mavs are underdogs compared to the Lakers this season?

Chiwas · 12-07-2003, 08:18 PM

Yes, but Nellie finds ways to make it more evident yet.

ReDIRKulous · 12-07-2003, 08:27 PM

Why do you think he does that?

kg_veteran · 12-07-2003, 08:57 PM

I hope he's serious. We've tried plenty of lineups that haven't worked that well. Time to put the best five out there.

Nowitzki
Walker
Jamison
Finley
Nash

Howard and Best should be the only guys guaranteed to get off the bench. Mix Najera, Bradley, and Fortson in as necessary.

sike · 12-07-2003, 08:58 PM

so he can shrug his fat shoulders and roll his eyes and say "well, they really are better than us...we were out outgunned tonight!".....loser!

sike · 12-07-2003, 09:00 PM

Mix Najera, Bradley, and Fortson in as necessary.[/quote]

this from the guy who wanted Bradley to get 25 min a game??
[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

dude1394 · 12-07-2003, 09:02 PM

Well actually I think the "loser" is closing in on either 1st or 3rd winningest coach or something.

sike · 12-07-2003, 09:06 PM

sorry dude, big game loser......whose stayed in the league so long and had such good teams and is such an offensive genius that he has won many many games.....but has never won the big one!...I stand corrected: loser compared to average coach, no!...loser of the big game, yes!

ReDIRKulous · 12-07-2003, 09:12 PM

Quote:

sorry dude, big game loser......whose stayed in the league so long and had such good teams and is such an offensive genius that he has won many many games.....but has never won the big one!...I stand corrected: loser compared to average coach, no!...loser of the big game, yes

He never had the players. Hey.. Jerry sloan never won a championship with Stockton and Malone... yet he is still a great coach. Nellie hasn't had players anywhere near comparable to them until now and Dirk is still a baby. How old was Malone when he got to the finals? I actually consider last seasons WCF the finals anyway.

sike · 12-07-2003, 09:23 PM

this is a week argument ReDirk, you have to win with what you have...(with the Bucks, he had wonderful talent, with the Warriors great talent, and now for the past two years wonderful talent)....do you have to always have the best talent to win a ring.....If you believe this go talk to the Spurs!!![img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

ReDIRKulous · 12-07-2003, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: sike
this is a week argument ReDirk, you have to win with what you have...(with the Bucks, he had wonderful talent, with the Warriors great talent, and now for the past two years wonderful talent)....do you have to always have the best talent to win a ring.....If you believe this go talk to the Spurs!!![img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

The Spurs have the best player in the game. lol

Yes... you do have to have the best players... and even some luck. Sloan had probably the best 2 players in the league at the time and they still lost... probably because their game wasn't "sexy" enough. I personally believe that you can be the best and still not win in this league. I saw the NBA help two teams take the Mavs to 7 games last season... all because the MAvs aren't considered a physical team. But were they the best basketball team? Far and away in my opnion. In my opinion Nellie is the best coach in the league... the problem is that he is a heretic and Cuban is a martyr.

kg_veteran · 12-07-2003, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: sike
Mix Najera, Bradley, and Fortson in as necessary.

this from the guy who wanted Bradley to get 25 min a game??
[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img][/quote]

sike, that's not going to happen, so I'm looking at the best available alternative.

EricaLubarsky · 12-08-2003, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: dude1394
Well actually I think the "loser" is closing in on either 1st or 3rd winningest coach or something.

If we have a decent season then Nelson will pull 35 games or so ahead of Riley for the second winningest coach in NBA history. Right now he is a close 3rd.

Nelson and Riley are the only coaches that have won Coach of the Year three times

If Nelson finishes up his contract with the Mavericks, he could easily surpass Lenny Wilkins for most winningest coach of all time. In Nelsons 25 seasons he has won 57% of his games, had 18 seasons over .500, 13 seasons with more than 50 wins, and two 60-win seasons.

Just a little info

Chiwas · 12-08-2003, 12:18 PM

Nelson's winning percentage in postseason is .460. That's a losing record. And we want to win a championship.

Nelson's losses in regular seasons are 835. I think he is top of something in losing also, besides winning, but I can't find a source that gives me a losing head coach ranking.

From the Top Ten coaches in the NBA history, poll in 1996-1997, only 3 of them showed more losses than Nellie, but it was 6 years ago. I think that, up to date, only Fitch and Wilkens has (or had) more losses.

However, the permanent underdog mentality, which leads to underdog rotations and tactics, above all against the Lakers, Kings and Spurs (which must be our ultimate targets for the postseason), is what makes me think we should try another coach.

BUT his last chance -fo me, course- is to use his best five as starters and for the rest of the season as his core.

kingrex · 12-08-2003, 12:45 PM

I think part of the reason for this move is to shake things up (especially when it comes to the Lakers). I don't mean to say that the Lakers will be shaken by this move, rather it will shake up the Mavs. By putting your "leaders" on the floor, I agree, it is a challenge for them to step-up and beat THE team to beat this year. I don't think it is Nellie's intent to set them up for failure. Moreover, I don't think he is setting them up "unintentionally" either.

This team is an underdog to the Lakers at the Staple Center because the Lakers have beaten the Mavs there everytime they've played them in recent history.

Another reason for this move, is because of the good play of Josh Howard. I do think that Nelson is more comfortable giving Howard the 6th man role he was reserving for Jamison. Jamison seems to need to start to really play his best. He seems to be a slow starter otherwise. So, I think Nelson wants to try him as starter since he won't lose much by having Josh Howard come-off the bench instead.

Lastly, Nelson is all about finding the most advantageous match-ups and I think having the Big 5 all starting will give us those match-ups (maybe not defensively, but maybe offensively).

grndmstr_c · 12-08-2003, 01:20 PM

I hope the Big 5 does start eventually. I wouldn't mind seeing a more traditional starting lineup Dirk's first few games back with the Big 5 all starting the second half, just to give them a little time to get back in step with one another before they're called on to open games as a unit.

Mavs Rule · 12-08-2003, 02:44 PM

Starting Jamison with the big five would be logical, therefore you have to question if Nellie will actually do it. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] The lakers have NO ONE to matchup against Jamison. He should be able to school George until Fox is healthy. He and Dirk on Malone are the single biggest matchups that the mavs have in their favor. Nellie should start Jamison and give him ALOT of minutes.

ReDIRKulous · 12-08-2003, 02:51 PM

One of the reasons I worry about starting the game with the big five is that the Mavs will most likely blow teams out in the first quarter and/or the first half.... this could lead to a "comeback" type scenario for the Lakers again. This is the main reason Nellie didn't start the big five before imo. Great teams jump out in the 3rd or 4th quarter.

I also find it very interesting that Nellie didn't start the big five during the "easy" portion of the Mavs schedule. He is doing it when we are about to go on the road and face the Lakers, Minnesota, Portland and Sacramento and we play 6 of the next 8 games on the road as well. So in my opinion nellie essentially put a little heavier saddle on the horse during it's practice runs to make him train harder... then before the big race... changed that to the lightest saddle so it feels a burst of power when it really needs it.

grndmstr_c · 12-08-2003, 02:57 PM

If AJ, Toine and Dirk play up to their capabilities I don't think there's any single player on LA that you'd call a good matchup for them defensively. But you're right about AJ. We need to play him and get him involved.