Official: Rondo to Dallas!! - Page 30 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Underdog · 03-01-2015, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iggymcfly

I'm sure we can find a player for the veteran minimum who will fill the backup PG minutes adequately behind Devin Harris and JJ Barea.

You didn't answer my question... Who?

No guarantee that Barea comes back next year - he might price himself out of our plans again... And Devin Harris has found a lot of success in the 2nd unit, not to mention it lessens his risk of injury. So we're probably looking for a starter.

BGMaverick9 · 03-01-2015, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

You didn't answer my question... Who?

No guarantee that Barea comes back next year - he might price himself out of our plans again... And Devin Harris has found a lot of success in the 2nd unit, not to mention it lessens his risk of injury. So we're probably looking for a starter.

That's not necessarily a given on Barea since he knows he fits so well with Carlisle and Dirk.

And you never know what's available in the trade market until you go down that path. As for free agency, a guy like Mo Williams is still an option. Is he better than Rondo? No, but the Mavericks could opt to try to re-work themselves as a better version of the pre-trade team. If the Mavs don't keep Rondo and tweak along the way, they may have a little wiggle room to have more than the minimum. It'll take some cap gymnastics, but it's not out of the realm of possibilities.

Again, there's different options. Maybe you start Harris, limit his minutes by having someone like Williams.

There's options. Some are decent, some are worse. They'll explore everything.

EricaLubarsky · 03-01-2015, 05:45 PM

Was Rondo even on Williams last night? I wasn't watching for that as much as our terrible defensive movement (always a half step slow and not boxing out), but Brooklyn plays three guards with Johnson as the PF and we were

1) way too slow
2) way too confused defensively without a shot blocker in the middle

tap2390 · 03-01-2015, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Just one question - who replaces Rondo? Remember, we have zero cap space to work with, and can only keep Rondo because we have his Bird Rights. That means you're replacing him with a vet minimum player... I'd like to see a list of vet minimum guys that you think will perform better than Rondo.

Well you're right about that, but that's basically the position we were in coming into this season pinning our hopes on Jameer Nelson and Raymond 'one more donut?' Felton.

We'll still have our late first round pick. Worst case scenario we bring in a rookie, bring in a few vets, and see what shakes out in training camp. Best case scenario the Mavs BT pull something out of their @$$ like they have the tendency to do.

Surely that's better than tying up long-term $$$ in someone we're not sure is going to fit in.

jthig32 · 03-01-2015, 06:16 PM

Here's the thing about replacing Rondo, if it comes to that:

He's been objectively terrible offensively. There's just no other way to put it. And yet, despite that, a host of injuries, and the bench being depleted by the trade, the Mavs have maintained a top ten(ish) offense since the trade. They don't *need* a dynamic (or even good) offensive player at PG in order to be a quality offensive team. That's been established, at this point.

What has happened, since the trade, is the defense has improved dramatically. We've now established that the Mavs, with this core, CAN be a quality defensive team. Devin has started playing better defense, Aminu has been a revelation, and we went from horrendous to good at starting PG. That was enough to make the Mavs into a viable defensive team. And I wasn't convinced that this core was capable of producing that level of defense. And I don't think Rondo's playing a level of defense that can't be found elsewhere.

So if you start talking about replacing Rondo, you don't have to replace what you (maybe) thought you were getting. You don't have to find a star. You need to find someone that plays above average defense and doesn't kill you offensively. That's a relatively low bar, especially considering how deep the PG market is right now.

Now, the unfortunate part is that, given the salary cap situation, it will be difficult to find even that level of player, while also keeping Tyson, Monta, Aminu and Amare. But it's not impossible.

LonghornDub · 03-01-2015, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Here's the thing about replacing Rondo, if it comes to that:

He's been objectively terrible offensively. There's just no other way to put it. And yet, despite that, a host of injuries, and the bench being depleted by the trade, the Mavs have maintained a top ten(ish) offense since the trade. They don't *need* a dynamic (or even good) offensive player at PG in order to be a quality offensive team. That's been established, at this point.

What has happened, since the trade, is the defense has improved dramatically. We've now established that the Mavs, with this core, CAN be a quality defensive team. Devin has started playing better defense, Aminu has been a revelation, and we went from horrendous to good at starting PG. That was enough to make the Mavs into a viable defensive team. And I wasn't convinced that this core was capable of producing that level of defense. And I don't think Rondo's playing a level of defense that can't be found elsewhere.

So if you start talking about replacing Rondo, you don't have to replace what you (maybe) thought you were getting. You don't have to find a star. You need to find someone that plays above average defense and doesn't kill you offensively. That's a relatively low bar, especially considering how deep the PG market is right now.

Now, the unfortunate part is that, given the salary cap situation, it will be difficult to find even that level of player, while also keeping Tyson, Monta, Aminu and Amare. But it's not impossible.

All true, but my concern is that I'm not really sure the Mavs can compete through three or four playoff rounds with current-ish Rondo (or whoever replaces him), good as they may be. The Stoudemire addition helps, but I think they were really counting on Rondo's top-flight potential to take them from good regular season team to great postseason team.

Of course, few thought the Mavs would make much noise in 2011....

rimrocker · 03-01-2015, 08:09 PM

What if we don't sign Rondo or Ellis and sign Dragic?
Then sign a defensive specialist at SG who can shoot 3s like Danny Green and maybe someone like Cole Aldrich as backup center.

Would this be possible and appealing?

Dragic/Barea
Green/Harris
Parsons/Aminu
Dirk/Amare/CV
Chandler/Aldrich/Sarge

LSMF · 03-01-2015, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rimrocker

What if we don't sign Rondo or Ellis and sign Dragic?
Then sign a defensive specialist at SG who can shoot 3s like Danny Green and maybe someone like Cole Aldrich as backup center.

Would this be possible and appealing?

Dragic/Barea
Green/Harris
Parsons/Aminu
Dirk/Amare/CV
Chandler/Aldrich/Sarge

That team would be so beastly...but I love Monta and there'd be no guarantee we could get Dragic. Didn't someone from our FO diss him a few seasons ago? I think I remember hearing something like that

sefant77 · 03-01-2015, 08:18 PM

The Heat are willing to throw 5y/100m at Dragic (they allready told).

Why would he sign for 4/80 in Dallas? Less money, less sun and beach...

Forget Dragic.

And we have to renounce the rights end of june, BEFORE the start of the FA. BEFORE we have any guarantee of someone signing with us. No thanks.

jthig32 · 03-01-2015, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

And we have to renounce the rights end of june, BEFORE the start of the FA. BEFORE we have any guarantee of someone signing with us. No thanks.

This is inaccurate. You can renounce a player's Bird rights at any time.

I think you may thinking of the timing on deciding on picking up a team option, or guaranteeing a non-guaranteed salary. Those are sometime scheduled around July 1.

rimrocker · 03-01-2015, 08:25 PM

Wow...didn't realize Miami offered that.

I just don't see us going far with Rondo/Ellis, Ellis alone, or Rondo alone.
When I say "alone", I'm talking about having nothing left but min to sign anyone to play with either of them.

It seems we are screwed no matter what we do this off-season.

jthig32 · 03-01-2015, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

All true, but my concern is that I'm not really sure the Mavs can compete through three or four playoff rounds with current-ish Rondo (or whoever replaces him), good as they may be. The Stoudemire addition helps, but I think they were really counting on Rondo's top-flight potential to take them from good regular season team to great postseason team.

Of course, few thought the Mavs would make much noise in 2011....

This is true. I was focusing on the ability to remain relevant, not becoming/staying a contender. It's true that Rondo is, by far, our best avenue to becoming a true contender.

rimrocker · 03-01-2015, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

The Heat are willing to throw 5y/100m at Dragic (they allready told).

Why would he sign for 4/80 in Dallas? Less money, less sun and beach...

Forget Dragic.

And we have to renounce the rights end of june, BEFORE the start of the FA. BEFORE we have any guarantee of someone signing with us. No thanks.

Then what about letting Ellis go, resign Rondo and then sign Afflalo and Aldrich?

Rondo/Barea
Afflalo/Harris
Parsons/Aminu/RJ?
Dirk/Amare/Powell
Chandler/Aldrich/Sarge

Afflalo and Parsons probably make up for the offense we lose from Ellis and we immensely improve defensively.

mavsfan1000 · 03-01-2015, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rimrocker

Then what about letting Ellis go, resign Rondo...

I stopped reading after that.

sefant77 · 03-01-2015, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

This is inaccurate. You can renounce a player's Bird rights at any time.

I think you may thinking of the timing on deciding on picking up a team option, or guaranteeing a non-guaranteed salary. Those are sometime scheduled around July 1.

Ah okay. I remembered it different...

rimrocker · 03-01-2015, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

I stopped reading after that.

Not surprised you would say that.
How many titles does Ellis have?
How many does Rondo have?

How many all-star games has Ellis played in?
How many has Rondo played in?

I love Ellis' game but I don't see his type as someone who can carry a team to a title. Rondo is proven.

If you would have read more you would have noticed that roster looks very similar to Boston's when they won the title with Rondo.

Ellis might be the better player but Rondo might give us a better opportunity to win a championship with the right players around him.

jthig32 · 03-01-2015, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rimrocker

Not surprised you would say that.
How many titles does Ellis have?
How many does Rondo have?

How many all-star games has Ellis played in?
How many has Rondo played in?

I love Ellis' game but I don't see his type as someone who can carry a team to a title. Rondo is proven.

If you would have read more you would have noticed that roster looks very similar to Boston's when they won the title with Rondo.

Ellis might be the better player but Rondo might give us a better opportunity to win a championship with the right players around him.

rimrocker · 03-01-2015, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Given what is available in FA this off-season, do you really see any PGs we can acquire with the min that will be a good fit on this team?

Or do you think Rondo/Ellis will eventually work?

I personally think that combo is doomed to fail and I was all for the trade when it happened.

mavsfan1000 · 03-01-2015, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rimrocker

Given what is available in FA this off-season, do you really see any PGs we can acquire with the min that will be a good fit on this team?

Or do you think Rondo/Ellis will eventually work?

I personally think that combo is doomed to fail and I was all for the trade when it happened.

The Harris/Barea as point guards should be fine. It would be nice to get a backup shooting guard for Ellis so we don't have a small backcourt.

rimrocker · 03-01-2015, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

The Harris/Barea as point guards should be fine. It would be nice to get a backup shooting guard for Ellis so we don't have a small backcourt.

Then why did we make the trade for Rondo?

We were getting torched by other teams' backcourts before the Rondo trade so I don't see how we'd get better by going back to that situation.

If there is a PG similar to Kidd available I'd say that is who we need next to Ellis. But I don't see any out there who will be available this next off-season. If there is one please share.

I agree Rondo isn't the answer next to Ellis but I'm not sure who would be. If Rondo had the right attitude I think he could be but he wants to be more involved in the offense...at least as a distributer. Tough to do when Ellis is at his best with the ball.

Rick should try bringing Ellis off the bench and start Jefferson as an experiment. RJ is more fitting with Rondo and Ellis would torch the 2nd unit of opposing teams.

LonghornDub · 03-01-2015, 10:02 PM

Folks, you can go ahead and stop mentioning Dragic. It's not happening. He's an Eastern European guy who wanted to be in a major coastal city (not at all uncommon for European immigrants), to earn max or near-max money, and to ideally be the only ball-dominant player in his team's starting lineup. The Mavs can't offer him anything he wants.

And had they traded for him earlier this season (which by all accounts was incredibly unlikely to happen), they could potentially be in a far worse situation than they are now, because he could have completely surprised them by leaving in the offseason. At least they'll be prepared if Rondo leaves--and at least they didn't give up much to get him.

rimrocker · 03-01-2015, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

At least they'll be prepared if Rondo leaves--and at least they didn't give up much to get him.

Understand but we are totally screwed at PG if Rondo leaves. We were desperate to improve over Nelson/Harris/Barea/Felton and our options will be severely limited if Rondo moves on as UD pointed out. Considering the elite PGs in the West (Curry, Paul, Parker, Conley, Westbrook, Lillard, Bledsoe, etc...) we need someone to somewhat put up some resistance. Harris/Barea/Felton isn't going to cut it.

I'm not crazy about overpaying Rondo but looking at the alternatives is pretty scary.

LonghornDub · 03-01-2015, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rimrocker

Understand but we are totally screwed at PG if Rondo leaves. We were desperate to improve over Nelson/Harris/Barea/Felton and our options will be severely limited if Rondo moves on as UD pointed out. Considering the elite PGs in the West (Curry, Paul, Parker, Conley, Westbrook, Lillard, Bledsoe, etc...) we need someone to somewhat put up some resistance. Harris/Barea/Felton isn't going to cut it.

I'm not crazy about overpaying Rondo but looking at the alternatives is pretty scary.

Yeah, I mostly agree. I think thiggy is right that Rondo's current level of play would be much easier to replace. But if Rondo walks and the Mavs get nothing for him, I find it very difficult to envision them competing for a championship next year. As you say, Harris + Barea + filler isn't going to win you a title (as much as I like Harris's game of late).

rimrocker · 03-01-2015, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Yeah, I mostly agree. I think thiggy is right that Rondo's current level of play would be much easier to replace. But if Rondo walks and the Mavs get nothing for him, I find it very difficult to envision them competing for a championship next year. As you say, Harris + Barea + filler isn't going to win you a title (as much as I like Harris's game of late).

I've been looking through available players next year and I actually think Ellis might be easier to replace...at least someone more compatible with Rondo.

I see two scenarios:

1. Find a PG fit with Ellis who can guard SGs and elite PGs.
2. Find a 3pt spot-up SG to play with Rondo.

Just looking at things from a different perspective, what about building a team that is more fitting with Rondo similar to the Celts?

Rondo/Allen/Pierce/KG/Perkins
Rondo/Afflalo/Parsons/Dirk/Chandler

I see similarities with those teams as Afflalo plays well without the ball and is a good 3pt shooter with size that can play good D. Parsons' game is similar to Pierce as he can shoot the 3 and drive to the basket. KG became primarily a mid-range shooter after being traded to Celts and Perkins was a defender/rebounder similar to Chandler (but Chandler is much better).

Not saying it would work but seems to be a much better PO structured team than what we are putting on the floor now and seems to be pretty easy to accomplish in the off-season.

sefant77 · 03-01-2015, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

The Harris/Barea as point guards should be fine. It would be nice to get a backup shooting guard for Ellis so we don't have a small backcourt.

Westbrook
Paul
Harden
Conley
Parker
Lillard
Curry
Harris/Barea

Hmmmm....i dont know....something doesnt fit here....hmmmm....

Underdog · 03-01-2015, 11:24 PM

I'd like to see more games before ultimately judging Rondo's fit on this squad... I thought we'd know what this team was by the ASB, but the injury bug bit so hard that the starting lineup only played 2 games together in the month of February. These guys haven't really been given a fair shot to make this work yet. Things look grim right now, but we all know the Rondo debate isn't going to be solved until the playoffs (duh).

mavsfan1000 · 03-01-2015, 11:34 PM

I don't understand why Harris doesn't get a chance to start. Having Barea come off the bench should be fine. Like I said, a backup to Ellis that adds more to our bench would solidify this team. I doubt any elite point guards are available. So at least strengthen the bench if possible.

rimrocker · 03-01-2015, 11:45 PM

I wonder what Danny Green will get in the off-season.
Didn't realize he is a career 41% 3pt shooter.

Didn't realize he is 6'6". Would love to add him to our roster somehow.

Rick at least needs another option with size in the backcourt.
Not sure why he is so infatuated with the small-ball lineups.

Cerberus · 03-02-2015, 08:41 AM

Weren't we ranked 2nd in Defensive rating (MEM 1st) or something in February? And Rondo only played 5 or the 12 games. Not implying we are better off without him as I still would like to see our team gel together before ultimately judging Rondo's fit. Adding Amar'e also mean we again have to re-calibrate offense and defense. Also I don't see enough Rondo PnR and penetrate to the basket, I see Barea do it more than him...or am I wrong?

I know this is a bit to early, but is there a chance we can sign and trade Rondo in the off season? (Not saying we should, up to Donnie/Cuban)

KillerLeft · 03-02-2015, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I'd like to see more games before ultimately judging Rondo's fit on this squad... I thought we'd know what this team was by the ASB, but the injury bug bit so hard that the starting lineup only played 2 games together in the month of February. These guys haven't really been given a fair shot to make this work yet. Things look grim right now, but we all know the Rondo debate isn't going to be solved until the playoffs (duh).

Thank you.

KillerLeft · 03-02-2015, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerberus

Weren't we ranked 2nd in Defensive rating (MEM 1st) or something in February? And Rondo only played 5 or the 12 games. Not implying we are better off without him as I still would like to see our team gel together before ultimately judging Rondo's fit. Adding Amar'e also mean we again have to re-calibrate offense and defense. Also I don't see enough Rondo PnR and penetrate to the basket, I see Barea do it more than him...or am I wrong?

I know this is a bit to early, but is there a chance we can sign and trade Rondo in the off season? (Not saying we should, up to Donnie/Cuban)

You should ask the Illusive Man. He'll know what to do.

KillerLeft · 03-02-2015, 09:18 AM

The vibe among Mav fans regarding Rondo reminds me sooo much of the general feeling many people had during the first year of Jason Kidd (second stint). I think we all saw how keeping that core together over time helped them gel and reach levels we wouldn't have thought possible during his first year or so, right?

Honestly, I don't think a better PG than Rondo is going to become available while Dirk is still playing, and I'm positive that continuity is going to help with most of these issues. I Still think they've got to pull the trigger and commit to him.

sefant77 · 03-02-2015, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rimrocker

I wonder what Danny Green will get in the off-season.
Didn't realize he is a career 41% 3pt shooter.

Didn't realize he is 6'6". Would love to add him to our roster somehow.

Rick at least needs another option with size in the backcourt.
Not sure why he is so infatuated with the small-ball lineups.

My guess is 4y with 32-40m

mavsfan1000 · 03-02-2015, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerLeft

The vibe among Mav fans regarding Rondo reminds me sooo much of the general feeling many people had during the first year of Jason Kidd (second stint). I think we all saw how keeping that core together over time helped them gel and reach levels we wouldn't have thought possible during his first year or so, right?

Honestly, I don't think a better PG than Rondo is going to become available while Dirk is still playing, and I'm positive that continuity is going to help with most of these issues. I Still think they've got to pull the trigger and commit to him.

Rondo is no Jason Kidd. He wish he could shoot or pass as well as Kidd. Rondo's game relies way more on his speed rather than skillset. I'm not saying there is a solution to fix this team. Just that Rondo isn't it.

Melonhead · 03-02-2015, 10:36 PM

Jarret jack. He'd fit in well with ellis. Oh game winner against GS

KillerLeft · 03-03-2015, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsfan1000

Rondo is no Jason Kidd. He wish he could shoot or pass as well as Kidd. Rondo's game relies way more on his speed rather than skillset. I'm not saying there is a solution to fix this team. Just that Rondo isn't it.

Rondo is more similar to Kidd than you think. Kidd didn't learn to shoot until later in his career, when his athletic ability started to diminish and he had to make the transition from constant ball handler to off the ball contributor.

Yes, Rondo's shooting must improve, but I feel like that's possible. We'll see. What I KNOW is that time spent playing in Carlisle's offense will eventually have a drastic effect on how he's able to apply the skills he already has.

We should really give this more time before calling it, imo, which is the real reason I brought up Kidd. The team looked TERRIBLE for quite a while after that trade, including the first playoff series, if I remember correctly.

markus1234 · 03-03-2015, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melonhead

Jarret jack. He'd fit in well with ellis. Oh game winner against GS

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3...trick-beverley

2015 Salary: $915,243
1 year remaining

All-Defensive 2nd Team
2014

3P% 2.1-5.9 .360

Kante · 03-03-2015, 01:59 PM

No to Beverley. Overrated on defense and poor on offense.

LonghornDub · 03-03-2015, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rimrocker

I wonder what Danny Green will get in the off-season.
Didn't realize he is a career 41% 3pt shooter.

Didn't realize he is 6'6". Would love to add him to our roster somehow.

Rick at least needs another option with size in the backcourt.
Not sure why he is so infatuated with the small-ball lineups.

Green was shockingly close--somehow--to notching a Finals MVP in 2013. Don't think he actually would have won it even had the Spurs closed out Game 6, but around Games 4 and 5 he was the clear favorite.

He's gonna get paid. But you have to wonder whether he'll do the Spursy thing and stay there for probably less money.

Thebo · 03-03-2015, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kante

No to Beverley. Overrated on defense and poor on offense.

Funny, for a minute there I thought you were describing Rondo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by markus1234

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3...trick-beverley

I hope this doesn't come off of Ethan Strauss, Amin Elhassan and Tom Haberstroh's movie directed by Tim MacMahon. I think Beverley is best and probably only option this summer behind Rondo. It wouldn't surprise me if Rockets and Mavs exchanged point guards via free agency.

I wouldn't pick Beverley over Rondo - unless Rondo asks too much money and gives no hope to improve his game. I think Beverley is a decent player but this seems to be pretty much it. I like his defensive effort and playing in Houston he is used to not have the ball at all, but his offensive game isn't as good as you could be let to believe. He does not seem to shine talent wise - he earns his spot and minutes through hard work but he is only 26 years old and this is his biggest upside.

It is funny though, I never thought about it but if Rondo thinks Dallas is bad, he should see playing with Harden - this scenario also makes it likely that Beverley won't be available this summer as he is Restricted Free Agent.

I liked Jarrett Jack even before he got to Nets but in his case I do think that his defense is a bit overrated. I think he's perfect as 6th man but in terms of Dallas, you are in trouble if you can't hit threes. Nets won't dump him just for Felton though.