Gay marriage...

[fluid.forty.one]

didn't say all

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

I think that is a pretty bold statement. And I'm sure by friends, you mean even just acquaintances? Because I gotta tell you, I don't even know OF anyone in my life or the periphery of my life who might be gay.

Well that's not entirely true. I do know a couple of people who thought they were gay back in college, but have since realized that they were slaves to a trend.

I think you're simply dealing with someone who's never lived in the bible belt. I'm sure it's different in other areas of the country.

I have an uncle that is gay....that's the only person I've ever had any regular contact with in my personal life that is gay, to my knowledge.

[fluid.forty.one]

yeah, I shouldn't have said most of us "here"

[rabbitproof]

Or they're gay and you don't know it because they know how you'd react.

[ocelot_ark]

I'd imagine if you've ever been to a bar in Uptown there's a decent shot you've at least been EXPOSED to some gay people. I've got 2 coworkers (out of 25 or so) that are gay. Definitely came across dozens in college.

[mcsluggo]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

Why is prostitution illegal again?

It doesn't infringe on anyone else either, well, not directly anyway.
In fact, we can publish "swingers" stuff all over the internet, yet most state laws prohibit prostitution.

Should government be in the game of setting morality or not?

1- Jane Doe, marrying a pig doesn't infringe on others either.
2- John Doe marrying his 12 year old neice doesn't either.
3- Jack Doe marrying multiple women doesn't either.
4- Watching kiddy porn in the privacy of my home doesn't infringe on others either.
5- Me walking bare a$$ naked through the streets doesn't infringe upon other rights either, although many might lose their lunch.

Where are you going to draw the line?

States presently are drawing the lines -- you may or may not agree with them.

wrong. 2,4, (and posibly 5) certainly infringe on other's rights.

we protect children because we have deemed them unready to enter into this sort of relationship/contract.
similar for kiddie porn.
public nudity is much like second hand smoke... but in your case it leaves a much worse taste in the mouth.

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Or they're gay and you don't know it because they know how you'd react.

I'd imagine it would be pretty hard to come out in Texas.

[rabbitproof]

I can't believe we're comparing gay marriage to marrying animals.

I'm not a big proponent for gay rights but I am in equal rights.

The animal has no say in getting married or not and is... AN ANIMAL!?!?! Are we backing in 1860 and comparing humans to livestock again?! What the hell kind of comparison is this?

[Flacolaco]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

I'd imagine it would be pretty hard to come out in Texas.

I don't think so. I knew a lot of gay people in college, like ocelot said.

I don't know where they are now. Where did they all go?

Did they disappear or did they just grow up and move on?

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I think you're simply dealing with someone who's never lived in the bible belt. I'm sure it's different in other areas of the country.

This got me thinking a little.. I've had a "little" experience with the whole hugely Christian family and their views on gays. One of my good friends from when I was about 10-16 moved to Califronia when he was 18 just so he could come out, because he knew it would be hell on earth if he stayed in at house while being openly gay. His mom is EXTREMELY Christian. Even 2 states away his mom still made his life hell for at least the first 4-5 months, calling every day, having preachers call, acting suicidal, etc. Pretty crazy stuff.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Or they're gay and you don't know it because they know how you'd react.

I'm not sure who this is directed at but be careful with your assumptions. Not everyone that believes homosexuality is wrong treats those who live in it any differently than anyone else. People that treat homosexuals or anyone else with bigotry and hatred are the worst kinds of hypocrits.

[ocelot_ark]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

I can't believe we're comparing gay marriage to marrying animals.

I'm not a big proponent for gay rights but I am in equal rights.

The animal has no say in getting married or not and is... AN ANIMAL!?!?! Are we backing in 1860 and comparing humans to livestock again?! What the hell kind of comparison is this?

Grasping at straws, i'd say.

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

I don't think so. I knew a lot of gay people in college, like ocelot said.

I don't know where they are now. Where did they all go?

Did they disappear or did they just grow up and move on?

Did you keep in contact with any of them?

wait..... Did some come back IN the closet? Are you insinuating that being gay is a choice? That they should all just grow up? I really, really hope I interpreted that wrong.

[Flacolaco]

There are SOME people who choose to be gay. That's a fact. I saw it happen in college a lot.

[rabbitproof]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I'm not sure who this is directed at but be careful with your assumptions. Not everyone that believes homosexuality is wrong treats those who live in it any differently than anyone else. People that treat homosexuals or anyone else with bigotry and hatred are the worst kinds of hypocrits.

That was for Flaco.

Jthig, I've been impressed with your attitude towards things you don't necessarily personally agree with or believe in.

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

I think that is a pretty bold statement. And I'm sure by friends, you mean even just acquaintances? Because I gotta tell you, I don't even know OF anyone in my life or the periphery of my life who might be gay.

Well that's not entirely true. I do know a couple of people who thought they were gay back in college, but have since realized that they were slaves to a trend.

pretty hard to actually know flac, unless you asked each of these acquaintances...the pansey flaming homo is just a characterture. most of the guys/gals that I know who are gay are pretty normal in appearance and personality.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

I'm guessing most of us here have friends who are gay. I'm guessing NONE of us have friends that match your list. Gays have become socially "acceptable".. the things you listed aren't, at this moment. So they are different, at this moment.

But moments change. It is socially acceptable to snort coke, but that doesn't mean legal or good for anyone. It is socially acceptable to drink alcohol, but not when someone gets killed from either driving or drinking too much. It is socially acceptable to smoke, but I don't like you doing it in my car where it affects me.

Different yes, but allowable -- that is what votes and laws are for.

If we were to go back in time and read a debate between people who think we should free slaves, or let blacks vote, or let women vote... it would look similar to this thread.

Free blacks?? What's next.. letting them vote?? Run for President??!? Man and pig united in unholy matrimony?

while true, in previous years, it was OK to sacrifice babies to Molar. It was OK to burn witches at the stake. It was Ok to sell people (and socially accepted as well).

Do you wish for man to marry PIG?

Has man gotten to the point that there can be no laws on right and wrong?

It was once socially acceptable to stone people for committing adultery -- should we go back to that since it was acceptable?

The pendulum swings both ways here -- who makes up the laws? Who should make up the laws?

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by ocelot_ark

Right. But it does attempt to scare people into believing that gay marriage will basically cause their marriages to fail. If outside influences, such as gay marriage, have THAT large of an affect on anyone's marriage - they've got much larger issues to worry about. The actions of other couples should have no bearing on a marriage. If gay neighbors entice a husband over to play back yard tug of war, the husband didn't really love his wife ANYWAY.

I agree that people should be personally responsible for their own actions, but I don't think we can deny the impact that a loosening of societal morals in America has led to deterioration of the marriage institution.

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

There are SOME people who choose to be gay. That's a fact. I saw it happen in college a lot.

Well I know a LOT of gay people and not a single one has turned 'un'gay. I guess there's always the chance of experimenting or wanting attention, or just trying to find yourself.. but I'd be willing to bet that's at most 1% of the gay population. I mean seriously.. why would someone WANT to be gay? And that's not bashing them at all.. I've heard that from the mouths of homosexuals themselves, and they raise a good point.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I'm not sure who this is directed at but be careful with your assumptions. Not everyone that believes homosexuality is wrong treats those who live in it any differently than anyone else. People that treat homosexuals or anyone else with bigotry and hatred are the worst kinds of hypocrits.

I agree with this.

[ocelot_ark]

Lets not derail the thread into a topic on "created gay or chose to be gay." I'm not concerned with how they got to be gay, but rather the rights of said gays.

[Flacolaco]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

pretty hard to actually know flac, unless you asked each of these acquaintances...the pansey flaming homo is just a characterture. most of the guys/gals that I know who are gay are pretty normal in appearance and personality.

Oh yeah definitely. I had a boss once who was gay and he was just as normal* (I realize that's a poor choice of words) as can be. After he got over it and realized that we were all cool with it, we all got along great. I think a lot of peoples fears of coming out of the closet are unfounded, given how exposed everyone is now a days to homosexuality via TV and movies, etc...so much so that they create more of "coming out of the closet" problems than the rest of us.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by mcsluggo

wrong. 2,4, (and posibly 5) certainly infringe on other's rights.

we protect children because we have deemed them unready to enter into this sort of relationship/contract.
similar for kiddie porn.
public nudity is much like second hand smoke... but in your case it leaves a much worse taste in the mouth.

WE have deemed -- that doesn't seem FAIR. Maybe we should just let them make up their own minds.

and I'd give you rep for the taste comment, but rep still isn't working.

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

I agree that people should be personally responsible for their own actions, but I don't think we can deny the impact that a loosening of societal morals in America has led to deterioration of the marriage institution.

no, imo the loosening of societal restraints has led to a change in the institution of marriage.

and why should the institution be static?

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

There are SOME people who choose to be gay. That's a fact. I saw it happen in college a lot.

sure, just like there are people who do other things in search of stimulation or whatever.

but they are not the people that this discussion of marriage includes, those who just wanted to try it out don't make the decision to enter into a committment of marriage.

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

The pendulum swings both ways here -- who makes up the laws? Who should make up the laws?

The pendulum does swing both ways..haha.. come on that's a little funny

Seriously though, with every single law or rule or whatever there's two sides. You have to take each for what they are, rather than pulling in random examples of what this could cause.

It is TRUE when I say it's generally socially acceptable for Gays to be together. Let them get married.. it doesn't affect straight people at all.

but then the response is always "Someone marrying 15 women doesn't affect you" or "The murder of someone you don't know doesn't affect you" or "Someone having sex with their 12 year old niece doesn't affect you". Well sure of course that's true, but it's an ENTIRELY different example. We're talking about gay marriage, not pedophile incest.

[ocelot_ark]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

I agree that people should be personally responsible for their own actions, but I don't think we can deny the impact that a loosening of societal morals in America has led to deterioration of the marriage institution.

And I'm not saying that's incorrect. But that article most definitely is drawing the conclusion that gays are responsible for much of those loosening societal morals.

If your best friend jumps off a bridge, does that mean you're going to as well?
If your best friend sucks many penises, does that mean you're going to as well?

Peer pressure makes people gay? Peer pressure makes people leave their families?

No. People make decisions themselves. No one is forcing anyone else to get married in the first place. If you get married and subsequently cheat on your wife, it's not SOCIETY'S fault.

And if we want to get INTO loosening morals, I think the sheer volume of independent women and husbands whose wives aren't at home all the time has MUCH more of an impact on married life than anything gays have done. But, then again, I'm not trying to justify any agenda.

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

Oh yeah definitely. I had a boss once who was gay and he was just as normal* (I realize that's a poor choice of words) as can be. After he got over it and realized that we were all cool with it, we all got along great. I think a lot of peoples fears of coming out of the closet are unfounded, given how exposed everyone is now a days to homosexuality via TV and movies, etc...so much so that they create more of "coming out of the closet" problems than the rest of us.

wait, I thought you said you didn't have any friends/acquaintances who were gay except some in college who "grew up"? You may not have been friends but that wasn't the point.. I was pointing out that most of us KNOW gay people.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Did you keep in contact with any of them?

wait..... Did some come back IN the closet? Are you insinuating that being gay is a choice? That they should all just grow up? I really, really hope I interpreted that wrong.

I have a half dozen or so gay friends/acquaintances, and none of them have turned straight.

None of them like the fact that I preach to them. All of them I get along with though, and am friends with. Two of them do not live with anyone now, and just live their lives.

Each and every one of them has listened to me say a prayer for them. One was offended the first time I did. He later thanked me for it.

One of the few things I have learned in life -- to hate the sin, but love the sinner.

[fluid.forty.one]

Isn't there some evidence that gay couples stay together at a higher % than straight couples? I thought I read that somewhere but I could be pulling that out of my ass.

I think it's a pretty big logic leap to put ANY blame on gays for heterosexual marriages not working out.

[Flacolaco]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

wait, I thought you said you didn't have any friends/acquaintances who were gay except some in college who "grew up"? You may not have been friends but that wasn't the point.. I was pointing out that most of us KNOW gay people.

Granted, but I was trying to illustrate (and I guess it's just me) that the older I get the less and less I seem to encounter. Which is weird.

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

I have a half dozen or so gay friends/acquaintances, and none of them have turned straight.

None of them like the fact that I preach to them. All of them I get along with though, and am friends with. Two of them do not live with anyone now, and just live their lives.

Each and every one of them has listened to me say a prayer for them. One was offended the first time I did. He later thanked me for it.

One of the few things I have learned in life -- to hate the sin, but love the sinner.

that's really cool

[Flacolaco]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Isn't there some evidence that gay couples stay together at a higher % than straight couples? I thought I read that somewhere but I could be pulling that out of my ass.

I suppose it's too soon to for there to be any data on children raised by gay parents? Like how they achieve academically...likely to go to college? play sports? likely to behave well? misbehave? etc, etc...

If it could be proven that the gay family is just as "normal" (sorry about that word again) or "stable" as the traditional Mother/Father/Child family then that would quiet some people against gay marriage.

[fluid.forty.one]

not sure.. what I read was just about the couples themselves.

a LOT of families are non-traditional now.. so are we to only compare a gay family to a Mother/Father/Child family.. or would we also compare them to a single mom family?

[Flacolaco]

That's a good point...perhaps a Gay/Gay/child family is better than a single mom family. I've said it time and time again on issues ranging from crime to education that parenting is the root of all this countries problems.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

The pendulum does swing both ways..haha.. come on that's a little funny

Seriously though, with every single law or rule or whatever there's two sides. You have to take each for what they are, rather than pulling in random examples of what this could cause.

It is TRUE when I say it's generally socially acceptable for Gays to be together. Let them get married.. it doesn't affect straight people at all.

but then the response is always "Someone marrying 15 women doesn't affect you" or "The murder of someone you don't know doesn't affect you" or "Someone having sex with their 12 year old niece doesn't affect you". Well sure of course that's true, but it's an ENTIRELY different example. We're talking about gay marriage, not pedophile incest.

this is not necessarily true. Why should I accept "let them get married, it doesn't affect you?"

Many things have been pointed out -- that don't affect you directly. Yet you have an opinion on them based on your beliefs.

I do not believe it is right. Since I don't, and I live in a free country, then we make laws about it. If I were in say Germany in the 1940's we might have resolved it by killing the different person. We aren't though, we are in the US in 2008. Our laws say that we vote to make laws based upon what "we the people" believe in.

These laws don't make us "right", nor do they make us "wrong". With my beliefs, we will be judged in the end by our maker. You may or may not have these same beliefs -- but for now we make laws based on the majorities belief.

Just a FYI. Slavery would have never ended, if the majority wouldn't have believed it was wrong. If someday the majority thinks homosexuality is OK, then the law will change. It still won't make it wrong or right, but it would make it the law.

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

That's a good point...perhaps a Gay/Gay/child family is better than a single mom family. I've said it time and time again on issues ranging from crime to education that parenting is the root of all this countries problems.

hmm

while I think about that, let me ask.. have you had any time to think about my new sig

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

I suppose it's too soon to for there to be any data on children raised by gay parents? Like how they achieve academically...likely to go to college? play sports? likely to behave well? misbehave? etc, etc...

If it could be proven that the gay family is just as "normal" (sorry about that word again) or "stable" as the traditional Mother/Father/Child family then that would quiet some people against gay marriage.

"An analysis of multiple studies of 500 households shows that rearing children in a same-sex household does not affect the their self-esteem, gender identity, or emotional health, a Boston researcher reported"

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/514477

my bro in law and his wife are both professors in chiild development in a major univ dept, and their work says that same sex couples have preponderance of kids with a high self esteem and academic performance...because of the parents dedication to the kids. similar result as a hetero couples, just with a higher incidence.

[Flacolaco]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

hmm

while I think about that, let me ask.. have you had any time to think about my new sig

No, I have been talking to you about gay marriage.

I've been very inattentive on this conference call I'm on right now...

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

<snip>
I've been very inattentive on this conference call I'm on right now...

I hope you are not on the same one I am on.........it is way too boring.